How could men do this!?

v573v · 2018-12-22T15:16:02+00:00

Firefighters in China are overwhelmingly Chinese and male.

Fire fighters in India are overwhelmingly Indian and male.

A nation that’s overwhelmingly one race is going to employ a lot of that race.

Why men?

Probably because women, unable to pull a person out of a fire, don’t want to be the reason that person dies.

Edit: took out a nonsensical and rogue ‘an’

OscarAlexHasEntered · 2018-12-22T13:50:25+00:00

What is wrong with folks these days...?

upper_monkey_horny · 2018-12-22T15:38:40+00:00

Nice to see a woman seeing this bullshit for what it is.

pomegranate2012 · 2018-12-22T16:26:27+00:00

Eh, the article's not THAT bad, it's just bit ... nothingy.

https://hbr.org/2018/12/making-u-s-fire-departments-more-diverse-and-inclusive?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hbr

cliffs:

Women, there aren't many woman in the service.

Black people, there aren't very many black people in the service.

Gays, is there room for a paragraph on gays? Ok, there aren't many gay people in the service.

> What firefighters actually do.

> Yes, they’re fighting fires, which requires climbing ladders, hauling hoses, and carrying victims from burning buildings. But this is only a small subset of the job. In 2016, only 4% of emergency calls to which U.S. fire departments responded were actually fires. The majority (64%) were medical emergencies.

Ok, that's a fair point. It's just the article itself is very wishy-washy and doesn't really answer any questions. I think they should've forgotten about gay people and black people and focussed on a more factual approach to what modern firefighting actually is and how they can be best achieved by hiring diversity, be that through a social justice approach (more gays, more racial minorities) that many people are sick of, or a more objective approach (more older people, people from different industries with relevant qualifications) that might have actually got readers interesting.

I did a search for the question mark.

> So how can we get more firefighters to recognize members of non-prototypical groups as being equally capable of success in the fire service?

> But what’s the actual path for departments achieving more diversity?

> how can we get more firefighters to recognize members of non-prototypical groups as being equally capable of success in the fire service?

None of those questions were answered!

And, of course, there are very loaded questions. "How can we ever hope to make white, cis-het male fightfighters accept that transgender people can be more effective firefighters than they are?" Ok, that's an exaggeration, but if this went through the hands of a Guardian, Huff-Po or Buzzfeed subeditor, it's not hard to imagine it would've ended up that way.

If you want a wishy washy par, check this out.

> And we’re starting to learn more about how the research can extend to practice in the form of a general diversity and inclusion training program I developed for fire department leaders that includes education on how biases and stereotypes affect the experiences of firefighters from underrepresented groups. While not revolutionary, these steps are vital. “Biases impact how we think and the decisions we make; we should be aware that they exist and how we manage them,” says LACoFD fire chief Daryl Osby.

Translation: My research proves that research in the future might lead to more diversity in training and how more research may, or may not lead to education and training on both biases AND stereotypes that may or may not affect firefighters who are not from the more represented groups. My work isn't very significant, but the fact that I'm doing it is. For a relevant quote, one fire chief say 'A bias is something that does exist. Because it exists we should think about it. Also, we should manage it. Realising that something exists is the first step to accepting that it is real, which leads onto the second step of management."

That's one of the worst quotes I've ever read! I just imagine the fire chief wanting to give her the absolute bare minimum of agreement without committing himself to anything she might insist on in the future.

Final par

> Most firefighters are probably unaware of how their status-quo perceptions about their profession reinforce bias and create unequal opportunities for peers from underrepresented groups. My research points to a more inclusive alternative.

Oh jeez. Does this woman really think her liberal arts degree is of interest to firefighters with actual experience of the industry?

With that conclusion, I don't feel so bad that her commissioning paper got pounded so bad on Twitter.

PM_ME_YOUR_FOOD_ · 2018-12-22T19:17:11+00:00

As a certified firefighter, as someone who has volunteered and put my life on the line in the past for people, this makes me sick. You can't force someone in to a profession. And honestly, some of the nicest most tolerant people are fire and ems. They don't care who you are or what you've done, they just want to help. If you think your god damn sexism stems from a profession where people risk their lives every single day to help people they don't even know, then you're brain is more fucked up than I could ever imagine. Get a life, grow up, and stop being a mothetfucking baby.

Valmar33 · 2018-12-22T14:55:39+00:00

A nice burn, especially when it comes from a non-Feminist woman. ;)

Galaxine · 2018-12-22T18:41:40+00:00

If the firefighter is physically capable of pulling me out of a building then I don't care who they are. Men are stronger. Testosterone is a hell of a drug. But if a buff woman wants to do it and she can, hell yeah. Or if she wants to be an engine mechanic back at the firehouse also hell yeah.

But don't send the equality hire who can't lift 50 lbs in to rescue adults, please.

azazelcrowley · 2018-12-22T15:55:47+00:00

Oh no wall of text.

Ignoring the gender thing for a moment because, ffs men are naturally stronger in ways relevant to the job what's wrong with you expecting this would end up equal, and assuming the rates are disproportionate rather than reflective of the society, I think there is some cause for concern over the racial disparity (Not in terms of efficacy of the fire service, but because of what it suggests about our society), but it wouldn't be resolved by the Neoliberal or Progressive approach of fucking about with the fire service to make them "more welcoming" or some shit. Because the problem isn't the fire service, it's the society that drives men who are physically active into different paths based on their race. It's possible that the "Missing" black men and so on here are into sports instead, and trying to succeed there, or they might be pushed toward crime, or somewhere else. The issue there would be impressing upon people from an early age and regardless of race (save for, perhaps, knowing where it's likely to be beneficial to say "Have you considered Sports/Firefighting?") that their skills have a wide range of applications in fields they may not have considered and so on.

On top of that you've got the poverty issues and different perspectives in some communities of what is a respectful and prestigious use of strength, fueled by many factors. It's entirely possible that some criminals, had they grown up in the suburbs, rather than being celebrated for their strength when used for criminal ends and seeing others celebrated for the same would have been celebrated when using it in more productive ways, and thus, would have been fashioned into firefighters or the like.

I think plenty of impoverished minority youths pursue a career in sports because it's viewed as one of the only ways out of their situation, despite it being a thing that only really rewards a handful of individuals and ultimately "wastes" the others time (If they are pursuing it as a career, rather than a pasttime.). Impressing upon people going into sports and so on that they should consider a physical career as a backup/supplement might impact this.

Just stuff like that I guess.

The reason these communities still view sports and so on as the way out is a leftover from a time when, yes, you couldn't really get a career in many things because we'd fuck you over for it and make you seem incompetent and so on, but it's difficult to fuck someone over for simply being good at sport, their record speaks for itself. They disproportionately pursue careers requiring exceptional individuals because there was a time when only exceptional individuals from their communities could overcome the circumstances they were placed into, and so it is the only "way out" of the situation. This fucks over the vast majority of them who, simply put, are not exceptional, and would be better served by pursuing a more "normal" (if prestigious and taxing) career in something like firefighting.

Progressives try and fix all this by fucking about with the fire service, when I'm not convinced that's the problem anymore. Active sabotage of peers is something the overwhelming majority of society is going to frown on, and I think any measures already in place to facilitate anti-discrimination are probably sufficient.

Brockkilledspeedy · 2018-12-22T20:21:00+00:00

I don't understand why it needs to change. The physical standards to pass the exam have already been lowered for women. What else can they do?

I_Pee_In_The_Sh0wer · 2018-12-23T01:01:58+00:00

I was a fireman for over 10 years. At all of the employment tests... It was filled with white males. Women in the fire service are overrepresented compared to those that apply. Last hiring exam we had, only 3 out of 500 applicants were female. They hired 1. That female is vastly over represented.

Besides, there's no problem that needs to be solved. More women in the fire service isn't some tragedy that even women want to solve .

Blutarg · 2018-12-22T16:48:25+00:00

I don't know about you, but when someone is pulling me from a burning building all I care about is their gender and color!

hypnobearcoup · 2018-12-22T20:41:29+00:00

Disabled firefighters when?

a_posh_trophy · 2018-12-22T21:49:01+00:00

Jesus H. Christ.

Surely you can't be that narrow-minded that you negate the fact that the fire brigade only employ applicants. If the majority of applicants happen to be white, how is that their fault?

MrJonesWildRide · 2018-12-22T16:51:05+00:00

If my house is on fire the last thing I want showing up is a team of female firefighters.

funkymoose123 · 2018-12-22T17:15:39+00:00

Police are messed with a lot to get gender/race stats to where they want them. For awhile in the city I live in it was well known they weren’t hiring any white males for awhile because they needed more diversity.

Super_offend3d · 2018-12-22T20:27:27+00:00

waronwhitey

Auditor-G80GZT · 2018-12-22T22:29:01+00:00

How DARE a man be anything but the very incarnation of evil!!!

Poe's law requires /s

Sewblon · 2018-12-22T17:26:12+00:00

No Harvard Biz review is right. There isn't any reason for whites and males to be over-represented among fire-fighters. One of the reasons this movement exists is that we want the risk associated with being a first-responder to be shared by everyone equally. (source: Myth of Male Power).

fogoticus · 2018-12-22T18:44:10+00:00

Any argument that always ends up being bitching about proportion should be stopped.

It's fucking stupid to say "ooga booga too much penis in this room". And the worst part is, these women behave like men have this secret club in every business ever.

No. If you are competent/capable, you will be hired. End of story.

The instant you throw the argument that men are stronger by nature down the drain, you just lost at least 50% of your word power.

thesaltycpl · 2018-12-22T18:40:00+00:00

A better article would be "why are professional civic services jobs like firefighting staffed by primarily white people?"

Then they would write about societal and cultural issues between people in western countries. But that's so far in the deep end for these people.

Robfu · 2018-12-22T19:32:16+00:00

We need less handicapped people represented in the police force and more in fire departments! Wait...

/s

ArmaniDiamonds · 2018-12-23T00:49:22+00:00

You mean men are willing to risk their lives to save someone else then women are? I'm shocked!

2018-12-22T16:56:28+00:00

This is a reach and massively oversimplified.

solemnweasel343 · 2018-12-22T18:04:04+00:00

I thougtht I recognised that face.

I haven't watched a video from Roaming millenial in months, gonna do that now.

lanceparth · 2018-12-22T22:02:45+00:00

r/shufflesdeck

Capernikush · 2018-12-22T23:54:08+00:00

Fucking white people.

PaulMurrayCbr · 2018-12-23T08:51:29+00:00

Just let people put a sticker on their homes indicating that they don't wish to be rescued by a white cishet male. Simple. Perhaps even some sort of database. When there's a firestorm, they can wait for someone of the appropriate race, sex, and gender to come along and save their lives.

a_posh_trophy · 2018-12-22T21:34:46+00:00

If women are so equal, why is that transexual/transvetite tennis player smoking all the girly butts, and why are all the girls ragin' and ranting about its "so unfair". Sob. Billie Jean King beat an old man tennis player, this new bunch of feminazis should be able to trounce a guy ODing on estrogen!

RedMong · 2018-12-22T16:16:14+00:00

I know who Orwell is but who's Goode?

117587219X · 2018-12-22T16:25:08+00:00

I am all for men’s rights, however the reason that firefighters in the U.S. are majority white males is because to some these are considered high paying low entry jobs so there is a good ol’ boys mentality and you can only get one of these jobs if you are related to someone there, basically if you have someone on the inside. A lot of these firefighters with overtime and such make 100K+ a year and there was even an article a while back about some firefighters making over $250K a year, more than the salaries of their state’s respective governors. In some counties there have even been lawsuits over the unfair and discriminatory hiring process towards non white men. So if you take anything form my comment, it’s just that this situation is more than what appears at the surface.

BlackCatAristocrat · 2018-12-22T20:48:40+00:00

Ah, Roaming. Love her content.

macaryl95 · 2018-12-22T23:55:38+00:00

This really offends me. Bet you can't guess what I'm talking about.

TheKingOfPancake · 2018-12-23T00:26:51+00:00

The cult of diversity, I like this

kensho28 · 2018-12-23T03:05:58+00:00

I'll play devils advocate, because no one else realizes the problem or simply doesn't care.

Firefighters, paramedics and cops are usually in that career because their older family members were. This isn't unusual or bad, but it creates unintentional cultural monopolies in areas that are essential to ALL communities. It's not surprising that there are aggressively sexist and racist people in these careers, based on their insular family traditions and the conservative preference for authoritarian power. It is TRULY a life-threatening issue in some communities.

That said, I've trained with cops, paramedics and fire fighters. They're ALMOST all good people, but they think of each other like family and they think of you as a moron or threat.

Winter_of_Discontent · 2018-12-23T05:25:07+00:00

Gotta love the unspoken agreement that /r/mensrights is really just /r/whitemensrights

cy1999aek_maik · 2018-12-23T10:07:44+00:00

It's easy to hate the article without reading it but maybe it just encourages others to join the firefighters. I'm not going to read it because I don't care enough but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt

Watcher2 · 2018-12-22T18:50:13+00:00

I’m gonna get downvoted to oblivion for this but here it is.

I have absolutely zero problems with firefighters being mostly white or mostly male but in the US the firefighters union is the best there is and unfortunately what happens is firefighters usually only hire their own family members or friends. This is the reason firefighters are overwhelmingly white and male. People get the job based on connections not just ability and merit.

It actually is something of a problem, and not just for whamen and minorities but also for white males who would love to be firefighters but aren’t connected to the special club.

perplexedm · 2018-12-22T17:17:19+00:00

Only solution is to make it illegal for crazy feminuts those yap ideas which split the coherence and spirit of the society as a whole trying to destruct it. They should not be given a space to vent venom like this.

panzercampingwagen · 2018-12-23T00:12:36+00:00

This is so dumb. Of fucking course it's a problem when apparently only white males want to be firefighters. And you're a fucking idiot if you think that's because anyone else isn't brave enough or some shit. Apparently there's a reason why males of colour don't want to join, and of fucking course we need to figure out that reason and do something about it.

Title	How could men do this!?
Author	lanceparth
Upvotes	4447
Comments	261
Date	December 22, 2018 1:39 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/a8kvvv/how_could_men_do_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-could-men-do-this.887867 https://theredarchive.com/post/887867

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waronwhitey