If you met someone in real life who either was the real life version of a confident, healthy, respectful but assertive and humble Red Pill man, or the walking version of foreveralone/niceguys, who would you rather give a chance? Say you are forced to pick one. Who would it be? Would you pursue the romance with the guy who browses foreveralone/niceguys daily, or the man who browses the Red Pill?
We're assuming the foreveralone guy in question has poor social skills, is shy and awkward around women, can't stop focusing on your breasts (thus poor eye contact), puts you on a pedestal, is needy, clingy, not well kept, is lazy. Yet this guy would never disrespect your opinion, he would always give you the benefit of the doubt, and always bend to your every need. He'd do all your homework, he'd defend you against all odds and white knight the fuck out of you.
The Red Pill Guy in question would not be afraid to challenge your opinion sometimes, would be healthy and in shape, have big goals in life and ambitions, be good in bed, have good posture, good eye contact (meaning he wouldn't just focus on your breasts while speaking to you), would have clear, confident speaking patterns, defend you when needed, but not bend to your every will, not be used, tease you once in a while, be supportive and understanding of what it's like to be a woman.
[–]midnightvulpine12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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Red pill: I know there are reasonable red pillers, but to make things easier I'll assume he is the combination of every person who has written a field report.
The problems I can see: I don't want to be dread gamed. I don't want to be neglected emotionally. I don't want to be treated as a lesser being. I don't want to be manipulated. I want someone who cares about me, not someone who holds their frame all of the time and pretends I'm just another person. I want to be someone who can be relied on for support during hard times and is willing to show their vulnerability. I want my voice to matter in the relationship too.
Foreveralone: I was subscribed to this Subreddit for years. These people have more problems than just their relationship status, and it will take more than a girlfriend to "fix" them. I wish they could be happy, I really do, but I don't have the strength to be their partner. If I knew one of them close by, I would try to improve with them by encouraging them to seek the help they need, expanding their social circles when they're ready, lending an ear and being a good friend. But I really wouldn't handle being their partner.
But if I had to choose... /r/foreveralone. Both types of people will fuck me up, but I think that type of redpiller will absolutely destroy me.
[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RichieFinnRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
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Your assumption was that I joined /r/foreveralone because I was FA. There is a controversial opinion on that sub: women cannot be FA. And it may not be speaking for all women, but it was true for me. I like seeing people talk about perspectives other than my own so not all subs I read are subs I can completely relate to, or have ideologies I have.
I think I've made my position on RP tactics clear:
[–]RichieFinnRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I develop my opinions by going to the source instead of relying on hearsay and the opinions on others. Maybe you should do the same.
Most of RP will not cheat, but not all. I'm sorry I used absolutist language. I'll edit my second post to more accurately reflect my thoughts.
I'm going to preemptively say that I am not cherry picking. I just googled [cheat site:reddit.com red pill] and included results talking about men cheating on women. I acknowledge posts discussing cheating will be skewed to seem like a higher proportion of men cheat (i.e. the majority of RP men don't think about cheating and don't talk about it either) but without a proper survey it's impossible to tell how skewed it is.
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2655dg/cheating/
"if you want to cheat, than just dispose of the relationship." It's pretty much cheating, isn't it? It just happens in the opposite order. Not to mention: "Women love a man who cheats and gets away with it."
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1uypnz/the_red_pill_makes_me_want_to_leave_my_wife/cen112t
http://np.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/2pwknc/is_it_rp_to_cheat_in_a_ltr/
A majority answered no, but not all of them did. A commenter linked to this:
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1mqhhn/the_two_most_powerful_weapons_in_a_mans/
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2t4txp/makes_me_a_terrible_person_saying_this_but/
Ignored the main post but a lot of the comments are people sharing their stories.
Some RP men assert sexual strategy is amoral and won't hesitate to cheat as long as they perceive it is beneficial to them. Given this question says it's talking about a random member of the group, I'm not going to take my chances.
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Can I ask you /u/TheChemist158 do you have an SO?
The way I interpret "treating women as children" is the dynamic of "teasing" between a bf and gf, which I, suprisingly realized because of TRP, is a lot like the dynamic between a dad and her child.
Often (but this might not necessarily be true for you, of course) girls like to be "cute" in a relationship from time to time. Like in the relationship dynamic, the gf might pout and want to go to a certain restaurant or want to get her way. Or might be feeling down, so would bring the bf to cuddle.
The most effective way that bfs can "playfully" deal with this is to deal with it as you would your kid. It's playing off of the dynamic that both parties enjoy for some reason.
For instance, in the first case, the bf might playfully say "nah let's go somewhere else" and the gf in turn will pout even more. And then after teasing, the bf will relent, and the gf will act all happy.
Anyways, this is all to say, that the "child" thing builds off of observations in many bf-gf relationship dynamics.
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I absolutely despise the name dread game because their is two versions of it that are vastly different, soft and hard dread.
The Soft Dread Game
You have two things to accomplish, one, instill security in your women that she is the only one for you and two, appeal to her primal jealousy by being desired by other women. You want to show her that she has something all other women want but only she can have. "You've changed."
The perfect example, how ever much it pains me to say this, is Edward Cullen from Twilight. In his high school at the beginning, he was someone that every girl wanted but he had no desire to be with, until Bella. She saw him as something every other women wanted, but only she can have and he lusted only for her. It's such a mystery as to why that story resonates with so many young women that are still driven primarily by their natural hormonal desires rather than the logic seen in older women, gosh it's such an elusive and mysterious phenomenon. No it's not, It's the innate, evolutionary desire that all women(& men) possess, to desire that which other people have or want, it's why women commonly call one another catty.
That is what the soft game is, it really needs a new name because dread game is just... ugh. Is it fucked up logically? Yes, it's so fucking illogical, it's fucking counter intuitive to everything we are taught today of "the ideal man", but it's how women are. It's something that has been pushed by evolution for 200,000 years and is something you are going to be hard pressed to fight against. If you disagree with this assessment, take a look at every glorified story of a man our culture deems desirable. Fifty shades of grey, at it's core, its a man of value, that every women wants, but only she can indulge him.
Soft dread is nothing more than a man looking at himself and seeing value which will resonate from him, causing others to see it also(confidence), which in turn will cause others to desire what he has. you don't have to be manipulative, you don't have to go out and flirt with women in front of your SO. You don't have to text and talk to women for no other reason than to make yours jealous, that in and of it's self is insecurity and beta. All you have to do is have value and have your women see that value, then show her that she is the only women you desire, she has something that no one else can have.
The Hard Dread Game
This is something completely different. This is resorted to in either fleeting desperation or the final act of not giving a fuck anymore. This is what happens when a man is finally tired of being walked on. When he has given everything he can to a women, he's loved her, cared for her, payed everything for her, given her everything she's ever wanted and doesn't see it in return.
When a man says fuck it, he stops caring, literally as simple as that. If i was to analogize it, men are like digital switches where women are variable analog. A women can range in emotions and caring, a man is very singular. Once that flip is switched, it's no fucks given time. He doesn't care if his women values him anymore, he's going to find someone who does, and low and behold, now she sees something in him that she desires?
Fucked up? yes, wrong? no. You see this in a lot of relationships at either their turning point or their ending. The man it's tired of being the nice guy and being used, only then, when he values himself more than the comfort his women is given by him, is when the women will desire him.
I agree with the fact that the dread game(hard) is fucked up, but it's an ugly true to the dynamics of men and women. It can be argued as to where it comes from, if its evolutionary evolved with us, if it's hormonal or even morally sound but it doesn't really matter because it's just how it is. Maybe we can change it with time, rewiring our minds so to speak with each generation, but as it is now, that's just how the dynamic of men and women work. Men and women alike desire that which they cannot have, as much as we wish to see ourselves above such vanity, our actions and responses seem to tell a different tale.
[–][deleted] [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
Once there is a sense of security in a relationship, all sense of dread is mostly gone. The way I interpret what you're saying, soft dread is nothing more than demonstrating value. Does it really need a new, inaccurate name?
Also: I think soft dread has gotten the motives wrong. Because I have that sense of security, I don't care if other women flirt with him. Those women don't matter in our relationship. I work hard to maintain our relationship because he is special to me and because we enjoy each others company, not because I know he has other options.
[–][deleted] [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Your still thinking that the motive of soft dread is to make you jealous, it's not. When a women comes up and talks or flirts with your man and you aren't threatened, he just successfully did soft dread. You get a man other women want, something innate and primal to your desires as a human(having something people want), and he has also reassured to you that they can flirt all day with him(trust, no insecurity on your part), you are the only women for him. Refer back to Edward Cullen reference.
There is no "dread" in soft dread, that's why it's needs a new name, because it has no relation with actual dread.
to simplify;
If you have a man other women want, but you are not insecure in the fact that you are the only women that makes him happy, soft dread is accomplished. A sense of security while simultaneously having something other women want but can't have nor are you threatened that they will succeed in getting. He technically doesn't even have to engage another women for this to happen, as long as a women thinks she has a man that other women would want, soft dread is successful. Whether she is insecure or "jealous" of another women's approach is on the man to reassure her, she is the only one for him.
Unfortunately the majority of men fuck this up(beta) by either not being desirable to other women or they do something to cause their women to not trust them or have not efficiently reinforced her trust because a lot of times we come into relationships predisposed to fear cheating based on previous relationships if there was cheating or just general insecurity/lack of confidence.
A successful soft dread will leave a women feeling like the most beautiful women in the world and that she has the most perfect man next to her that every other women wants but can't have.
[–][deleted] [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Then what's the distinction between soft dread and simply having a committed partner who is seen as desirable by others? Why does it need a name when it's essentially just self-improvement (hit the gym/have a wide social circle/be ambitious to be intrinsically better) whilst in a relationship?
I think you have a different view on soft dread than the majority of the red pill.
From the Updated Glossary of Terms and Acronyms
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2rsk3s/the_intelligent_alpha_male_smv_and_why_dread_game/ To keep him happy... or else he will leave.
http://np.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/2nbt3k/soft_dread_working_lots_of_questions_from_wife/cmc7n81
But I think this might be talking more about hard dread?
Going to preemptively say I'm not cherry picking for an agenda. What I looked for is red pillers discussing the consequence or motive of soft dread, with a sufficient amount of upvotes to show that it's the consensus.
[–][deleted] [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Nothing, that's exactly what it is.
Because humans love finding patterns and categorizing. It's a more specific term to explain this phenomenon, self-improvement is an extremely broad term that could be anything. The dynamic of dread is not synonymy with the word self-improvement, that's why. When one hears, "Self-improvement", they don't think, "If improve myself, I will be able to tap into my women's subconscious desire to crave a man others also desire, I will not only improving my happiness and heath but also my partners."
They think, "loose weight, get in shape so i don't die from a stroke or deubetus."
I was already questioning that mid way through the post, thanks for being intersubjective.
I've only been here for a short time but this is also something I see lacking in TRP. It explains how and the results you will receives, but little focus is put on explaining to the person on the other end of the engagment.
You might like "The Tyranny of Structurlessness" It is a great read in better understanding of places like reddit. It's wrote by a second wave feminist in the 70's about their shortcomings.
But basically, it relates to this subject because it explains that one of the strengths of a group that has no formal structure to decide it's bulletin points of beliefs or morals, it is hard to pin point, isolate and discuss those things because group operates in a shroud of speculation and hazy accepted norms. This is why it's hard to discuss, critique or object to internet movements like the modern day 3rd wave feminism, because their is no defined, widely accepted goals or spokesmen(women), just a conglomerate of people on the internet raising awareness to an ambiguous movement. There are also benefits to both structured and structureless groups of course but they are mute in this context.
Reddit is called a hivemind and circlejerk for good reason. Reddit is a great place to find and connect with people that think the way you do, but it's a horrible place for constructive discussion because any threat or differing of opinion to the status quo is downvoted to oblivion and will never see the light of day.
Unless it's on the sidebar, everything else is just conjecture from one person to the next and hard to lock down and defined. Once something is roughly laid out on the side bar, the sub becomes inherently bureaucratic due to the hive mind when questions or suggestions are posed on said subject, for the same reason you listed. It's hard to gauge and measure the general consensus and take action on it due to the structurelessness nature of reddit. So while some things are set in stone on the sidebar, others are open for interpretation from one person to the next.
That was probably more answer than you wanted though.
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Forever Alone doesn't give you the tools to improve your situation, while TRP actually tries. Eventually TRP guy will get out of his situation (since he subscribed to a philosophy of self help). Whatever angst he may have at the beginning his journey will disappear as he fixes his personal issues.
Conflicting FA with TRP is disingenuous; they share similarities (they're both sexual philosophies), much like printing and cursive handwriting (they're both ways to write), but the differences in technique results on fault different outcomes.
If you like the FA personality by all means seek them out... But most people will go to TRP in real life.
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Hmm, I smell loneliness and dildos in here.
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Some guy must have really hurt you so bad.
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[–]noaptebuna4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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Can I just go home with a nice lady from the bar and leave the two men alone...? That's not an option?
Okay, fine. I'm reading this question as, "Who would you have a one night stand with," and assuming they were also very attractive, I'd probably take the TRP dude home. I've got a soft spot for cocky, charming assholes, but I'd never date one.
ONS standards are vastly different from dating standards.
*Edited because I think I was being a combative jerk for a second there.
[–]RevengeEnthusiast[S] 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
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I'm a lady! Just realized my tag doesn't make that very clear.
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Yep, bi, and I was being serious. I'd prefer a nice punky, alternative woman given those options... but then I figured I should go ahead and answer the question that you posed. :)
[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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