Does the "masculinity crisis" exist? How do blue pill and red pill define masculinity?

factsnotfeelings · 2015-12-31T12:08:23+00:00

Yes, masculinity is in crisis, men naturally desire validation from women, it is one of our core needs.

Since the overwhelming majority of men are ugly (90% approx) the only way for men to get validation from women was to serve as providers.

Women are gaining increasing economic independence/freedom, (this is a good thing) but it means that men will no longer be valued as providers.

In the future, increasing numbers of men will find themselves desiring validation from women and not being able to get it.

gainzndamez · 2015-12-31T15:29:24+00:00

What, according to you, are the roles of a man in today's society? What are his tasks and what is he expected of from society?

Get a job, get married, have kids, pay taxes, work yourself to death for the ungrateful spouse/kids/government at a job you hate. Call it happiness and console yourself with the thought that at least you're not in fucking Somalia, ignore the Sword of Damocles that's hanging over your head in the form of impending divorce from your shrew of a spouse, ignore how desperately unhappy you are. Happy wife, happy life, amirite? Haha.

And how do red pill men deal with it?

Drop out of all that shit. Don't marry, don't have kids. Have fun. Live for you and not for others. The term "puerarchy" was coined for a specific reason.

wub1234 · 2015-12-31T09:32:28+00:00

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/21812/1/how-fight-club-fought-a-crisis-of-masculinity

“Fight Club is talking about very simple concepts,” Fincher told Film Comment in 1999. “We're designed to be hunters and we’re in a society of shopping. There’s nothing to kill anymore, there's nothing to fight, nothing to overcome, nothing to explore. In that societal emasculation this everyman is created.”

What this quote doesn't acknowledge, though, is that many men cannot even aspire to that because they are simply not needed by this crony capitalist society. This is why suicide is the biggest killer of young men because they simply see no valid role for themselves in society.

The society certainly discriminates against women as well, but (a) they are far less likely to be completely shunned by the opposite sex, and their social status will have a limited role in this; (b) there isn't the same pressure on them to be the breadwinner, and men don't view successful women as necessarily more attractive than financially poor women; (c) they tend to gain more enjoyment and value from the consumer culture, and it is the things that defined masculinity traditionally that have been largely eradicated from the culture, not femininity.

Many men feel not just emasculated but powerless. Particularly where I live, where the insane housing market is an omnipresent lead weight bearing down on everyone who doesn't own a house, if you're a low-status male with a low wage, dead-end job, you really have no prospects at all. You'd better be damned attractive if you think a woman's going to come anyone near you and stick with you.

Really, the whole society is in crisis, but men, or rather some men, bear this disproportionately.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-12-31T12:26:45+00:00

Purple Pill man and an MHRM supporter here.

The "masculinity crisis" is a complex issue, because its often defined in a particular way. Specifically, its usually defined by women, in a woman-centric manner.

"Men aren't manning up and starting families with us when we want to settle down. CRISIS! I need someone to give me a child right away! And none of the men around me make my ladyparts tingle! There's a crisis in masculinity!"

And then there's another common refrain:

"Men are being violent towards women! They're not taught to respect women enough! Their toxic masculinity is making them into rapists, and masculinity needs to be reformed in order to keep women safe! But its not like we even NEED men anyway, I mean what have they ever created besides war and rape culture?!? There's a crisis in masculinity!"

And then there's another common chorus:

"Masculinity hurts men too. It forces them to never cry, it drives them to suicide... but that's not really relevant since its always worse for women and hahaha pass me my Male Tears mug please because those men talking about their feelings over in the MHRM are a joke. All gender roles that annoy men were created by them anyway so its their fault. Men created their own crisis of masculinity!"

All three of these disturbingly common refrains tell men the following: we're bad for not putting women first, we need to be changed for the sake of women, all our problems are our own fault anyway so we don't deserve any sympathy.

Governments who talk about the masculinity crisis usually connect it with stable jobholders and careers (particularly those of middle class men). Their concern over the issue seems primarily driven, unsurprisingly, by a desire to preserve their tax base (since many women aren't working with the same level of devotion men used to work at, and given we have progressive tax rates then a couple which makes two 50k incomes will probably result in less tax revenue than a single-breadwinner home which makes one 100k income... at least I presume so, it depends on the legal treatment of marriages too). So men are basically treated as a resource in this way - they exist to prop up the government's income.... a lot of income which will go to women's only programs (like Duluth Model DV programs) and to family courts which systematically screw over men.

Our masculinity crisis can really be understood as follows: thanks to many social shifts (the feminist movement, the sexual revolution etc), women have been able to avoid the costly parts of the traditional female gender role whilst preserving the "useful" (to women) parts of this gender role, and also are able to access many of the positive aspects of the traditional male gender role.

Men, on the other hand, are still expected to shoulder the exact same burdens of traditional masculinity, but they have no special perks any more for doing so (and are often called evil and oppressive for even thinking they may deserve something in return for their 'manning up'). In addition, they have not gained any access to the positive aspects of the traditional feminine role (being presumed worthy of care and concern, having one's vulnerabilities taken seriously etc).

In the modern era, women have an all-carrot gender system, men have an all-stick gender system.

Unsurprisingly, many males are thinking of this as a raw deal and thus deciding to question and even reject this system.

Everyone who depends on men "manning up" for their benefit (i.e. women who don't want true independence, those who run the government and administer bureaucracies etc.) is panicking as a result.

Are we really witnessing a crisis of masculinity? Or rather, are we all on the cusp of a genuine men's liberation movement (i.e. one sincerely against the male gender role)?

As for my definition of "masculinity"...

"A collection of traits, symbols, and signifiers which our society associates with men, in particular the notion of 'real manhood'"

As for 'real manhood' I define that as follows:

"A social control mechanism designed to encourage males to act in ways which may have been socially beneficial during the evolutionary past (but may be greatly dysfunctional in the modern world), and to reward compliant males with social status whilst punishing noncompliant males with social subordination."

PoopInMyBottom · 2015-12-31T17:21:17+00:00

I think the very existence of TRP demonstrates that there is a masculinity crisis. I think that is true whether or not you agree with them.

KILOS_IN_MY_BAG · 2015-12-31T10:51:35+00:00

Yeah I think it does. There's no real mainstream masculine identity and if you try and seek one out through this wonderful portal of knowledge we have here you'll be bombarded with articles on how evil masculinity is.

Here's a debate on this issue featuring Milo who's better at putting this kind of shit into words than I am. It's only 15 mins and it's worth a watch if you're interested in this issue.

To be honest though I do think there are similar issues with feminine identities too. You do not see femininity attacked in the same way masculinity is, but the feminist culture will put down women who want to live in a traditionally feminine way. My girlfriend has got a lot of flack from other women just because we're in a relationship with traditional gender roles. SAHMs are looked down on as old fashioned these days too, an issue touched on in the debate linked above. You can see it on PPD too, look how much hate RPW gets.

It seems to me that our society is hostile to anyone who actually cares for a perhaps more traditional identity for their gender. We're expected to just say "men and women are identical" and get on with it.

cats_or_get_out · 2015-12-31T14:42:37+00:00

Masculinity crisis? This is why I have a hard time feeling comfortable in civilian land. The idea that there even is a masculinity crisis is so incongruent to the kind of life I live.

From where I'm sitting on a Marine Corps base, I see men being manly men everywhere. Men with guns? Check. Men exercising? Check? Men in charge? Check. It's an island of tradition--some of those traditions are strange (can't eat and walk in uniform), but there is no masculinity crisis here.

On the base, at every store, hospital, school, etc, you have 8x10 frames pictures of the people in charge. President, Secretary of the Navy, the Commandant, base CO, Base SgtMaj, etc. Man, man, man, man--all are men and (except President) wearing that man scowl expression.

As a dependent (I bristled at the term for years) on base, I am constantly reminded that I play second fiddle to the Marine Corps and that my identity is through my sponsor. In order to sign up my daughter for after school childcare, I need the signature of my sponsor (or his POA). When I make an appointment at the base hospital for myself, they want his name and last four SSN. Everywhere I turn, I am reminded that the sponsor--my husband--is the reason I get to enjoy my house, my free gym and library, my health care, etc. It was a humbling experience to have to really see myself as a dependent of my husband. (When we married, I had the big fancy job and that "strong, independent woman" mentality.)

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2015-12-31T14:20:12+00:00

I think the "masculinity crises", if there is one, lies with men being expected to fill essentially the same role men have always been expected to fill while women are free to do whatever they want.

Additionally men are criticized if they fall in to traditional roles and shamed if they don't.

grendalor · 2015-12-31T12:56:05+00:00

Crisis is an overstatement.

The situation is simple enough, and most people are aware of what it is -- men are no longer specifically needed in most areas of life (barring a small number of remaining jobs that categorically require male physicality). This now openly includes parenting as well as provision/protection (while the presence of a male figure in a child's life may be admitted by some as being preferable, it is generally in no way seen as needful). Without a clearly needed role to play, men are left to making it up on their own, which is exactly what they are doing, and, unsurprisingly, for many this means underachieving.

It's related to this -- what does social liberation mean for men? Clearly it doesn't mean marching in the streets to have the right to do all of the things that women marched in the street about no longer wanting to do. Men can do that, of course (sans the marching in the street part), but that's really an adjunct to, and a part of the project of, female social liberation from the female role by spreading the former female role between men and women in order to help women compete better with men in the workplace. In other words, that isn't liberation for men, it is simply men helping feminism along so that women can advance, often at the expense of other men (yes, it is a zero sum when it comes to specific job positions and promotions that one person gets and another does not -- there is not an infinite number of these to go around).

No, male social liberation really looks like what we are seeing, whigh is really the slacking off from any role in particular, and doing what one wants to do. Often, unsurprisingly, this will not involve a great deal of effort in terms of career, professional or financial advancement, other than for men who are otherwise naturally ambitious. Here, in other words, I'm not talking about the high achieving umc men, who are not in a crisis, but rather the rest of the men. Liberation for them looks more like drifting to others. I expect we will continue to see more of this in the years ahead in the middle and lower ses groups.

I also expect we will continue to see various calls for these guys to man up and so on, but these will mostly fall on deaf ears. Unless naturally ambitious (and honestly, it isn't those guys who are in anything like a crisis), there isn't much social incentive for that. It's too easy and tempting, and for many, satisfying, at least in the short to medium term, to do less of that and more of what you really want to do, which for many guys involves a good deal of slacking in any number of areas.

Note that TRP does not favor slacking. Just the opposite, really.

wtknight · 2015-12-31T14:59:58+00:00

I've never cared much about whether there is a masculinity crisis. Nobody has ever thought that I was that masculine of a person, anyways. I have been successful enough in my school life, my work life and my relationships without the need to act particularly masculine.

BaadKitteh · 2016-01-01T00:06:31+00:00

I think the entire idea of "masculinity" or "femininity" crises is rooted in outdated gender roles. For some reason, some people cling to them (in my opinion because it is easier to follow a beaten path or have a template for life in a sense, rather than truly making your own choices), and some people want to abolish- namely those who stand up in the name of gender equality.

I think everyone should just be what they want to be, and fuck what is considered "masculine" or "feminine" by anyone else's standards except your own. It's really just immature to be concerned about whether or not others find you "manly" or "womanly" enough; people who you know and respect are the only people whose opinions matter. If you spend your life being concerned about what everyone around you thinks, you end up being a slave to an image, maintaining a facade, and you'll never really believe that anyone actually cares about you because you never let anyone know the real you. You never have to worry about whether people care about the real you when all you are is the real you.

GridReXX · 2015-12-31T10:52:55+00:00

A guy I was dating, me and him had a decent convo on the subject.

He said men are confused.

He himself said the idea of housework disgusts him.

(Newsflash men: the idea of doing dishes and cleaning child poop makes me sad too.)

But he also said he expects women to contribute their part to the finances of a home since they have jobs and careers.

And I remember telling him, "you are confused. You want her to still do housewife things, whilst also doing traditional provider roles."

Basically he wasn't keen on the idea of sharing the responsibility of traditionally female roles, but expected her to share his burden.

We laughed and joked about it and he admitted it was an unfair expectation, but how he felt.

Needless to say, I've sort of pushed him to the back burner as future mate potential.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2015-12-31T12:20:01+00:00

There's nothing really distinguishing about being a man anymore. Women keep trying to copy everything we do. Then when they fail, these rabid feminist harpies come pouring in demanding we lower the standards, change the culture, be more PC, make everything nice and feminine and feelz-friendly.

Then on top of everything else, ya'll bitch that you "have" to work while cleaning house, etc. No one held a gun to your head brah.

Women tend to just have this problem of mistaking their own (slight, but tangible) inferiority for some big Patriarchy conspiracy holding them back. When in fact, its their own weakness and tendency to blame others rather than looking inward.

VirgoRooster · 2015-12-31T18:50:20+00:00

There is not a single white, male, masculine, heterosexual male fictional character that is not villainized to some degree that shows up anywhere in contemporary Western culture. That tells you all you need to know.

"Oh that's ridiculous such characters are overrepresented."

Really? Name one within the past 10-15 years. I'll wait.

redmachines · 2015-12-31T21:26:55+00:00

"Masculinity" is a limiter to turn men into working class drones for the government and for women. These men are disposable utilities. They are desperately trying to cling to their just world logic that their sacrifices mean something but in reality, no one cares and they have nothing to show for it except years of built up frustration. Stop trying to rediscover what you never needed.

wazzup987 · 2015-12-31T10:16:07+00:00

I think there is in that the tradiational expectation of masculinity have been lifted. it left a lot guy with guide posts to follow. a lot guys who dont know what to do are falling back in to playing video games, and working a work a day jobs. i dont think this terrible. i think this is nessicary step to getting to a more balanced society in terms of gender expectations. there is pain right now.

i do think because men aren't chanting in the streets about how they are throwing off the chains of bondage of there former gender expectations people dont know how to handle it. like if feminism didnt happen but women still went college got careers and what not i dont think people then would know how to handle it either. i think because this happening quietly people are panicking because as joker puts it "it not part of the plan".

i think once society wakes up to how onerous the male gender role was we start to see society understand and embrace some of this change and we will comeback more to a mean where gender roles are more fluid men kind of find their new path in society what ever that may be.

Apexk9 · 2016-01-02T01:04:13+00:00

I'll use a story to express my opinions on how the masculinity is dying.

My friend had a father pass away due to cancer he has a sister and mother. Instead of hiding his emotions and becoming the rock for his sister and mother he joined them down a spiral of negativity.

A Man would internalize his pain and ensure he is strong for those around him that need it that is our job as a protector.

That and most men can't change a flat tire like for fuck sakes.

ThalesToAristotle · 2015-12-31T11:01:35+00:00

Masculinity is a huge crisis. I once saw a feminist trying to sell baked goods to support a campaign against online harassment when a self-identified MRA assaulted her for attacking his masculinity. Fortunately, I was there to step in and defend her but I hate to imagine what would have happened if I wasn't.

MoneyOverSluts · 2015-12-31T13:40:24+00:00

No goy, masculinity is a ((social construct)) so it only exists in your head. Be a good goy and become a stay at home father, and make sure you adopt a starving African child.

SkinnySweaty · 2015-12-31T14:46:18+00:00

The crisis is that men are being unprecedented freedom to choose their path in life and lots of them are shitting the bed when it comes to owning that choice.

RP wants it like was 75 years ago when all men wore suits and fedoras and drove the exact same cars as their neighbors. There was no thinking involved, you knew exactly what it was to be a man and all that was left to do was to go and do it.

We now live in an age where men have the freedom to be whoever they want and as a result we see that not every guy wants to grow up and be Don Draper. Is this a crisis? Not at all.

The problem is that a lot of men are flailing with this much freedom to choose who they want to be and are going into neutral, or coming to places like RP where toxic masculinity is held up as the ideal. If men would simply recognize that there is no one right answer, that life is not a quiz show, and go out and engage and discover who they REALLY are, we would have better men around.

jkonrad · 2015-12-31T09:27:20+00:00

How do you define masculinity?

UA_Hammer · 2015-12-31T15:57:42+00:00

Traditional masculinity (read: being ripped) is almost functionally useless except for attracting women

Ocean_Squeeze · 2015-12-31T16:58:47+00:00

Yes and I would like to see another 60s-esque spiritual revolution in which all the men gather at festivals and take lots of acid while women work all the shit jobs that no one wants and become depressed.

If we get horny we can fuck fleshlights and watch VR porn.

Xemnas81 · 2016-01-01T05:22:37+00:00

I don't really want to get into anything heavy tonight, but you may find 'Reggie's Extreme UK' to be interesting and informative.

DStoo · 2015-12-31T18:39:39+00:00

No. The only people I see whining about the 'crisis' were millennials that got participation awards for having a pulse.

Not everyone got that growing up, congratulations you're finding out life is hard and the masculinity you got with your participation awards doesn't cut it in the real world.

It doesn't mean we were all raised that way.

streetlightin · 2015-12-31T21:03:03+00:00

As a dandy aspirant who reads and writes (bad) poetry,

I don't really care about subscribing to trad masculine roles in the grand sense of being me, an individual.

Though on larger scale, society isn't taking the changes very well.

massive underemployment and under achievement by men whose life seems pointless doesn't bode well for all of us.

Title	Does the "masculinity crisis" exist? How do blue pill and red pill define masculinity?
Author	mythrow21
Upvotes	14
Comments	282
Date	December 31, 2015 8:48 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3yw5qs/does_the_masculinity_crisis_exist_how_do_blue/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-the-masculinity-crisis-exist-how-do-blue-pill.277383 https://theredarchive.com/post/277383

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