How young is too young?

squidracer · 2015-09-28T12:22:09+00:00

I think a 39 year old having sex with someone so young is inappropriate.

However, they are indeed sexually mature so it is not unnatural..

While some form of punishment of acceptable, I think we get a little over zealous with the penaltys.

vinegarbubblegum · 2015-09-28T13:41:15+00:00

Age is such a weird thing. The older you get the younger young people look. Older people look less 'old' and more normal. What looks wrong is all relative with it, and only time can bring about that realization.

Relationship wise half plus seven is about the threshold before vast majority are automatically doomed to failure. This keeps it's relativity nicely.

We could assign an arbitrary age, but much is cultural. I would not say it's natural.

_wingnut_ · 2015-09-28T13:23:18+00:00

Why dont you link to the actual argument so people can see that none of what you wrote is what i actually said

_wingnut_ · 2015-09-28T13:27:51+00:00

If anyone is interested in what I ACTUALLY said, as opposed to VBG's hysterical mischaracterizations of it, that part of the marathon thread can be located here

notice i never said i was "perfectly okay with a 39 year old marrying a 15 year old". I was repeatedly asked if i would be cool with a 39 year old "wanting to fuck" my 15 year old daughter. I stated that he could WANT fuck her to all he wanted, but that in ORDER to he'd have to MARRY her and be VETTED by me for marriage. At no point did i say he would get permission from me to marry her or that i would jump for joy at him marrying her. earlier in the thread i, as usually, pointed out for the 828743756565848857th time that there are perfectly good POLICY reasons for protecting nubiles from sex with older men. What I CATEGORICALLY DENY is that it is PEDOPHILIA and DISORDERED for men to be attracted to POST PUBESCENTS. That it is not sick or unnatural does NOT mean it shouldnt be discouraged. You do not have to lie about nature to have a policy of protecting nubiles. Their mere inexperience and lack of legal capacity to consent is sufficient

TheGreasyPole · 2015-09-28T13:52:43+00:00

Hi VBG,

Sounds like you're learning that RPW aren't what you thought they are.

Sounds like you're getting a crash course in fact. Did your conversation with an RPW go as expected ?

Enjoy !

Oh, and for the record.... There is nothing wrong with men being attracted to any female that is post-pubescent, or any female being attracted to any male that is post-pubescent either. It's perfectly natural.

Acting on that attraction would have legal issues in all our countries. Largely because, although the drive is natural... There is a large inherent risk to allowing recently post-pubescent humans to always make their OWN mind up about stuff.

Which is why we have the laws on underage sex we do. And on underage drinking. And on underage driving. And on underage voting. And on underage working. And on underage gun ownership. And on underage etc. etc.

It's natural for teens to want to do things like this. Its natural for other people to be Ok with doing it with them.

But for their own protection, and that of others in societies, we generally don't let them just get on with it.

Thats why "age of majority" is set as high as it is.

We recognise that whilst the drives are natural at such a young age .... They are immature little shits who still have a few years left of growing before they can be safely entrusted with a whole range of life altering decisions.

Archwinger · 2015-09-28T16:24:15+00:00

We live in a decadent, entitled, first-world society that delays maturity as long as possible for our children. Back in darker times, you were an "adult" as soon as you were old enough to contribute to society, and there was nothing "wrong" with having sex with 13-year-old girls. You'd also probably die before you were 35.

Today, kids sit in school until they're 18. Most sit in school after that for at least 4 more years, some longer. You can live with your parents and stay on their insurance until you're 26. You don't really get out on your own and become self sufficient until you're nearly in your mid-20s nowadays. And actual maturity doesn't come until you've had a little hardship doing that and had to figure things out.

So we have this funny situation where our bodies are "adult" by 15, plus or minus a few years, but our minds aren't mature until around 25, also plus or minus a few years. Today, we have this situation where children are biologically ready for sex, feel the urges, but are still children because we artificially repress maturity.

The law split the difference and said 18. So however old you are, as long as your partner is at least 18, you're good. Because going to jail is a bad sexual strategy.

dreckmal · 2015-09-28T14:47:35+00:00

trying to nail down what exactly RPW and RPM have in common (outside of both being in favour of the patriarchy, very little, it seems)

RPW and TRP have one thing in common. We are trying to take a realistic view of how to succeed in the modern SMV. It really is that simple.

It turns out, as a sexually dimorphic species, each gender generally has it's own concerns in what they get from a relationship.

would you be disgusted or is that normal around here?

You show your true intentions by leaving two less-than-tasteful options as answers to your question.

Your intent is to shame anyone who disagrees with you, which is pretty damn close-minded.

To try and actually answer your question:

Suppose you were talking with someone IRL and they said it's perfectly fine for their 15-year-old daughter to marry a 39-year-old man if that someone approved of the 39-year-old,

I really have to wonder what damn business is it of mine? I don't have to pass judgement on every little decision other people make for what could be good or bad reasons.

You setup a situation where the parent approves of the older man. Why should they not be okay with their daughter dating a guy they approve of?

I mean, should I feel morally or ethically outraged by someone else's life choices? Is that the sentiment you are trying to imply?

My house isn't near clean enough for me to tell someone else how to handle their own shit.

OlBastard · 2015-09-28T13:19:59+00:00

The 'wrongness' you feel is immensely contemporary. Most of civilization has been absolutely okay and encouraging of it.

Most relationships have unequal power-dynamics at their core, so what makes this wrong? If your feefees don't agree with it, merely don't raise your daughter to make such a choice.

Or do you think a social justice shaming tirade would be more necessary?

If there's no direct harm being done, I'm fine with it.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2015-09-28T17:48:15+00:00

Suppose you were talking with someone IRL and they said it's perfectly fine for their 15-year-old daughter to marry a 39-year-old man if that someone approved of the 39-year-old

First off, this is still permissible in most human cultures. Only in the west was this recently (100 yrs or so) banned. So, I wouldn't exactly be shocked to hear that opinion from someone IRL.

Second off, moral standards should be objective, not relative. If it's not inherently immoral for two 15 year olds to bang, then it's not inherently immoral for a 39 and 15 year old to bang. Is it more likely that a 39 year old would be more exploitative in that situation? Sure. Is it guaranteed? No, because everyone's an individual.

And if the parents of the 15 year old already judged the 39 year old to not be exploitative, that may in fact be a more accurate judgement than society's blanket ban on 39 year olds marrying 15 year olds.

PetticoatRuled · 2015-09-28T18:53:02+00:00

We have good data that says that girls under 18 suffer on a number of levels if they marry.

So, marriage under 18 is too young. http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GNB-Child-marriage-infographic-950px.jpg

People saying that 15 year old girls are fully sexually developed don't know their biology. Many will still have hips that are too narrow for childbirth. Many will not have ovulated yet, although they already have their period. Nature is cruel. For the girls who do become pregnant in their early to mid-teens, their pelvic bones and tissues between anus/vagina may rip apart during childbirth.

She is not functionally an adult.

Girls and boys of age 15 are attractive to grown men and women - of course teenagers of that age are beautiful.

Teenagers of that age might or might not be ready for sex. But the vast majority of us adults in developed countries would choose not to marry them (even if the laws changed overnight) because we're educated enough to know they are children with children's brains and because of the many complications for girls in becoming pregnant too young.

TheNicestDouchebag · 2015-09-28T14:36:26+00:00

In this hypothetical situation, it's not wrong for a 39-year-old man to be attracted to a 15-year-old if she's fully developed, and some do look 18-20 at that age. However, he shouldn't be allowed to marry her. There's too much of a power imbalance and difference in mental/emotional maturity. There's a reason why there are age of consent laws.

RedIsSafe · 2015-09-28T15:38:54+00:00

Pedophilia thing is kinda stupid. At least for people over 14.

MorpheusGodOfDreams · 2015-09-28T16:03:38+00:00

this is a badly defined question. What if the 15 year old was 20, and the 39 year old man was 30? would it be just as "creepy" (female shaming word). Many women look the same from 15 to early 20's, and nothing has changed except for magically crossing the legal boundary of 18. Likewise, men tend to age slower, so a 30 year old will likely look about the same at 39, maybe some more gray hair. Exaggerating the man's age also means nothing: if the man is 45 instead of 39, his attraction to her is the same, and he should be vetted by her friends and family just the same.

The traditional age of marriage for women is actually about 16, since a majority of women go through puberty and are equipped to handle childcare at this point in life. Many US states also have 16 as earliest marriage age. Its only a modern idea that women must go through a minimum of 4 years of alcohol poisoning after hitting legal age and then 10 years in a cubicle before a man's attraction to her is no longer "creepy." Men's attraction is 90% visual and immediate, we don't really care about how many times she has been around the sun.

speed3_freak · 2015-09-28T16:51:11+00:00

This is ephebophilia and is actually very natural and is only recently become taboo. Typically speaking, in the past a woman was considered a woman and ready for marriage after she got her period. This doesn't mean that it's good or even ok, it's just the way it was. Our culture today has said that this isn't ok (except in many countries where the legal age of consent is 14), and that's why it doesn't sound right. In my opinion, a 39 year old doesn't have any business being around a 15 year old, but I wouldn't have any problem with a 24 year old and a 15 year old. I also think it's weird for an 18 year old to date a 56 year old even though that's completely legal.

andrewisgood · 2015-09-28T18:25:54+00:00

So, one thing I did listen to awhile ago, and this could be wrong. People mature differently. There could be a 15 year old women who is functionally an adult. There could be a 19 year old who isn't. I think 18 is kind of a general marker in, you have the draw the line somewhere. I don't think 15 year olds for the most part are functionally adults, but again, some people are the exception.

Also, it's not pedophilia, it's ephebophilia, which is girls and women from ages 15-19, and hebephilia is 11-14. The issue is, for the most part, they are still children, and as children, they can more easily be manipulated and taken advantage, so in the song Guilty Conscience, as Dr. Dre would say, "you shouldn't take advantage of her, it's not fair". Though, the red pill is Eminiem "yo, look at her puss, does it got hair".

That, and I'm not sure what kind of relationship a 15 year old could offer a 39 year old, and it does seem to be simply that of being a fetish more then an actual personal relationship, and I think that's what gives people the creep factor. And yes, I also can't believe that I'm discussing this and there are people who think it's alright. That is probably why people don't really like Purple Pill Debate. It's worse then a scientist debating Ken Hamm. Sure, Ken Hamm is an ignorant bonehead, but he's not a disgusting misogynist and debating him puts his views on the same level as yours. Like, in real life, people would be uncomfortable standing next to people who are fine with this waiting for the bus, how could it be reasonable to debate these people.

EDIT: One last thing I want to put is this. How many people do you think could make adult decisions at 15. I'm sure most probably couldn't, and I know this is a lot of personal experience stuff here, but I feel guys, at least people who are for this, only care about getting laid and don't care about the issues that do befall teenagers, and how making good decisions isn't something teenagers are known for. So it's really easy for a 39 year old to just use them as a sex object as take advantage of them for their bad decisions.

mrcs84usn · 2015-09-28T13:29:12+00:00

I look at it in the sense that if his interactions with her is more of a mentor than a partner (or captain/first officer) then she's probably too young. As much as it's legal to bang 17 year olds in some states, I really won't want to be dealing with that level of maturity. I don't want to be picking her up from her parent's house, going through her high school drama, or just being confined to establishments that allow people under the age of 21. As much as I still love going to Family Fun centers, I still like to just chill at the bar.

bromance946 · 2015-09-28T14:24:55+00:00

A 15 year old man or woman is functionally an adult. 15 year olds should be allowed to consent, vote, drive, marry etc. I think it's absurd that an 18 year old who has sex with a 15 year old is labelled a sex offender.

That being said, yes it is creepy for a much older man to want to marry her and have kids. Having kids at such a young age is a problem because the mother never really got to live her life. The only way it would make sense is if the grandparents took care of the kid while she finished school and lived her life.

GaiusScaevolus · 2015-09-28T13:35:33+00:00

I went to high school with a few very attractive girls. One of them, let's say Alice, developed earlier on. I saw Alice last week, 9 years out from 15, and she looks exactly like she did in high school. Is it your position that she, despite not physically changing in terms of looks, crossed a magic barrier the day she turned 18 that made her suddenly attractive?

squirrelcuisine · 2015-09-28T18:28:40+00:00

Im 45. I wouldnt date a women under about 39.

We just arent that similar. I might not fit the RP crowd in that regard but that might be because I am over the age of 30.

midnightvulpine · 2015-09-28T14:30:19+00:00

Functional and emotional maturity are two separate things. A 15 year old tends to lack a certain perspective that would help them make life decisions. Eighteen, in the US, is a fine line to draw. It's the end of common schooling. An official moment across the majority of age based laws. It fits.

Not to say all 15 year olds are immature. Some can be more mature than adults. But law needs a standard. Personally, I find no general issue with age gaps as long as the law is followed. Want them young, provide enough evidence the law should be changed.

TheChemist158 · 2015-09-28T17:36:48+00:00

It's not pedophilia, but still messed up. We do not and should not trust 15 year olds to make life altering decisions.

And it is an appeal to authority, though it depends on the context of it is a fallacy.

metaltrite · 2015-09-28T18:51:14+00:00

the issue is one of maturity, not physical development. It is in no way pedophilia, but it isn't really healthy. If someone prefers (note prefers over others) younger women (15-20), they'd be an ephebophile. Please stop being so obstinate in arguments.

max_peenor · 2015-09-28T18:52:55+00:00

perfectly fine for their 15-year-old daughter to marry a 39-year-old man

That man better be the fucking King of some big ass country before he gets even near my daughter...

Personally, I don't know how anyone can stand being around a female under 19 except for familial, professional or educational purposes. That number was my hard cutoff once I hit 18. They babble and care about the most inane shit. Until a female has a dose of the real world, they remain in a bubble where they assume the world will always take care of them. It's profoundly annoying.

Sadly, I will admit plenty, but not all, women crawl their way back into that bubble, if they can.

PurplePilled · 2015-09-28T19:07:47+00:00

From this map, it looks like the relationship would be legal in most countries in Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Other pages on Wikipedia show that it would be legal in over large portions of Latin America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_South_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

I'm not sure how these facts relate to your view of morality, however.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-28T20:57:03+00:00

Persinally I don't thunk the average 15 y/o is either emotiinally mature or psychologically developed enough to get married ymmv

truthuncensored · 2015-09-28T21:08:39+00:00

Men like young (post-puberty) women. Shocking. News at 11.

Siahsargus · 2015-09-28T12:46:26+00:00

Yeah the majority 15-year-olds are post-pubescent and will be wanting sex. There's nothing wrong with that, most of them will just date within their peer group. But with your example, there is definitely a imbalance with a relationship with that sort of age gap. What sort of shared experiences would a 15 year old and a 39 year old have?

I stand by the xkcd rule of creepiness: Your age divided by two plus seven is the minimum age for you.

wtknight · 2015-09-28T15:31:31+00:00

The changing hormone levels is probably the best biological argument for why under-18's probably shouldn't be considered adults capable of making adult decisions such as getting married and voluntarily having children. TRP should know this as well as anyone considering the number of pre-18 anger phasers who come to their sub venting and obviously don't have the wisdom yet to fully "swallow the pill."

HappilySingleWoman · 2015-09-28T13:41:09+00:00

Ehh , I personally don't agree . I think most 15 years old are not mature enough yet to have their own families . Of course you could argue that even older people are often not mature enough , but anyway.

wattwatty · 2015-09-28T21:02:25+00:00

I don't mean to be flip (well, maybe I do), but, yeah, I think it is fucked up on 2 different levels: (1) gross!, and (2) do you actually know any 15-year-old girls? The only thing I want to do with most 15-year-old girls is to get away from them as quickly as possible - they are generally vile creatures.

adrixshadow · 2015-09-28T21:57:02+00:00

Isn't that more of a question of an age gap?

I don't think it would be much of a big deal if a 15 year old were to marry a twenty something year old and all parties accepted.

ReginaRadfem · 2015-09-28T22:23:12+00:00

The brain doesnt finishing developing until 25. Frankly the fetishization of college aged females is already sickening to me. We need more stringent consent laws, men already have so much power over women that if you throw age disparity in the mix, its pretty much automatically abuse.

Men should not be allowed to have sex with women under 25 to be completely honest. Why do you want to fuck someone who is still mentally a child? Its sick.

BornToBeIncel · 2015-09-28T23:16:51+00:00

I have to say, the sheer hatred for ephebophiles being shown in this thread is quite troubling to me.

Why does everyone keep equating us to pedophiles? WE AREN'T PEDOPHILES, PEDOPHILES WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOUNG CHILDREN. An ephebophile like myself would never stoop to that, no... but we do have a healthy appreciation for the innocent beauty of the spring flower that has just freshly blossomed. The youthful vibrance of a girl, having had her menarche, and hence come into her womanhood... there's just something incredibly desirable about that.

But we DO NOT "fuck" "children." Why can no one seem to get this?

Personally as an incel, I have yet to taste the joys of succulent female flesh, be it fresh, or rancid. However, I constantly obsess over what it would be like to be with a young, teen girl. A female unbespoilt by feminism, uninfluenced by the ravages and cruelty of the dating market, whose sweet young body has been untouched by any other man. Perhaps such a creature could actually see past my superficial flaws to the kind hearted, honorable man underneath. Certainly, none of you corrupt, 20something harridans has thusfar.

Though a man grown, I have the curiousity, simplicity and wonder of a child still in my heart. I watch kids shows, cartoons and anime constantly, play videogames with the mindless abandon of a child, and have no interest in 'adult' things like dance clubs, materialism, or careerism. A fresh virginal teen and I would make quite a match, I feel, were we only given the chance.

Chigibow · 2015-09-29T11:44:36+00:00

hmm.

13 i think. 13 is too young.

I've had 15 before and to be honest many 14-year-olds should be fair game as well.

SecondSwordofbravos · 2015-09-29T19:27:39+00:00

I'm 36 and still have basically the same taste I had in 9th grade: Big tits on a petite frame. Teenage girls have this odd stench to them.

thereddespair · 2015-09-28T14:55:35+00:00

15 lol. well i think that already does qualify as pedophilic.

i dont judge the thought of it, its the act as it follows or goes against the law. some people are turned on by nylon, some by blood, some by animals and some... children?

chasingstatues · 2015-09-28T17:03:32+00:00

From my perspective as an American, the average American 15-year-old is closer to a child than they are an adult. They are definitely not mature enough to date someone twenty years their senior. Any adult who would want to date them would come off as predatory and probably aptly so - since I imagine the attraction there isn't in spite of the age difference, but because of it.

You can make any arguments you want about outliers or about how Americans coddle youths too much, but as of right now, this is how I think it stands.

Edit: oops, I forgot to mention the alternative where you can make no argument and just downvote because fuck trying to make a case for your disagreement on a debate sub, amirite?

LUClEN · 2015-09-28T15:55:06+00:00

I guess I'll be a bit of a devil's advocate and say age isn't really that important. If a marriage between a 15 year old and 39 year old produced no negative consequences I really don't know what you could say to prove that it's wrong or that it should be avoided.

vinegarbubblegum · 2015-09-28T16:19:33+00:00

[deleted]

pandorarosie · 2015-09-28T16:54:29+00:00

Because I have a background in neuroscience...I go by brain development. When we are teenagers the limbic system (responsible for emotions and risk taking) develops quicker than the prefrontal cortex (thought-out decision making/personality etc). This is why teenagers literally think they cannot die. The prefrontal cortex does not finish developing until 19-20. There is a reason why RPW and TRP want the youngins...and it isn't just for their bodies, their minds are easily manipulated too.

BlackHeart89 · 2015-09-28T17:28:16+00:00

I think its relative to the times we live. Back in the door, a good wife was considered one that was obedient to her husband, cooked, cleaned, took care of the children, had sex, and had kids. That was it. Not much intelligence or maturity required. All these, including sex, were considered to be wifely duties. So there was no under-handed manipulation going on. Everything was understood from the very beginning.

Nowadays, the dynamics of a relationship is much different. The expectations and what you get are different. What were considered wifely duties can up and change at any moment without notice. Thats their right. I agree. But now since nothing is guaranteed and understood from the beginning, anything afterwards is considered open grounds to be looked at for manipulation. Especially since marriage is no longer involved.

Hopefully someone can make sense out of my argument and re-word it better. :p

But generally speaking, a lot of 15 and 16 year old women have very developed bodies and appear more mature than women older than 20. Its reasonable for a man to be attracted to that. But for an LTR, I don't see how a man nowadays wouldn't be annoyed.

HarryLillis · 2015-09-28T17:16:14+00:00

RedPillWomen is a subreddit for abuse enablers, so this doesn't surprise me. It surprises me a bit that a subreddit for abusers and a subreddit for abuse enablers don't get along well, though. I guess everything would be expected to have that kind of tone in this world, however.

Now, you obviously got everything she was saying incorrectly, but I think it is basically sick for a man to be attracted to a fifteen year old regardless of her having secondary sexual features. I agree with her that it should be restricted, but do not agree that it is only a policy matter.

I am a grown man and I have seen a naked teen aged girl before, not on purpose, things happen sometimes. By all accounts she had a figure that was matured to the same extent as women I have slept with, but I felt no lust, as it was just a child, with a naked form as casual and non-sexual a thing as a child's nudity. All children should hope for that much from the world of grown people. To have felt lust for that child would have been reflective of a perverse lack of mental and emotional development, and a perversely narrow sense of sexual attraction.

hyperrreal · 2015-09-28T14:27:22+00:00

[deleted]

Title	How young is too young?
Author	vinegarbubblegum
Upvotes	2
Comments	557
Date	September 28, 2015 11:59 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3moukr/how_young_is_too_young/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-young-is-too-young.279351 https://theredarchive.com/post/279351

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