FINESSED.

zakariya_sharf · 2021-03-06T12:52:30+00:00

https://v.redd.it/x3t82a74nel61(function() { var thing = {"obfuscatedPosterUrl": null, "context": "comments", "isGif":...

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The irony here is honestly hilarious.

If you think men are playing victim, then you're extremely close minded.

Men have never been able to play victim since the dawn of time. They've been too busy building society and making life comfortable.

Now they're suffering in many areas and getting shit on, and apparently we're supposed to just ignore that. You know what's ironic? People like you who think you're somehow morally superior by shaming men are the ones who are shitty unreasonable people.

Maybe I'm being a bit too crass, but I'm tired of seeing the double standards that exist today, and your kind going to every area and community that doesn't completely shit on men and holds women accountable to write retarded passive aggressive statements like this.

Here's a dose of reality. Men of today are indeed suffering and being shamed by people like you for simply pointing out these disparities

Also, not all women are perfect kind unicorns, and believe it or not they can be pieces of shit too, and at an equal if not higher rate than men.

Screaming "incel! Incel!" Adds no credibility to you or your shitty argument.

You're welcome

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You didn't seem to understand the point of this video. You're perpetuating a false dichotomy of men vs women, when in reality most men are no better off than most women. A very small portion of hyper-successful men in no way make up for a vast majority of men who struggle tremendously in our current systems, just like women do. You're creating this debate of "women have it worse than men", and when people point out "no not really, we all have it pretty bad, here are the ways men suffer" you assume that people are saying "men have it worse than women". What do you get from attacking ordinary men who themselves have no advantages in our current system, other than to alienate them and distract from the real beneficiaries, the extremely wealthy and privilieged, who give 0 shits about the gender of an individual and only care about their wealth and power?

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The main argument against that is that you should not be forced to self censor and dumb down your thoughts and words to fit others world view.

Obviously you have to be careful but you also have to remember that just a few years ago he was a random professor at a university...not a public figure so he still keeps many of his lecture styles even in wider public discourse. That is mostly that he presents his facts and opinions and ideas, uses a lot of metaphors and stories and stuff and leaves you to mull over it all and learn from it rather than spoon feed everything to you. Sadly it's not a classroom where you can simply raise your hand and clarify points.

As for the type of people that latch on to your message...that can be very hard to control as some things get taken and swept up and twisted.

One thing I think of was the men's rights stuff that used to be fairly mundane. Once incel groups and right right wing groups started getting shut down (on reddit) they started overtaking smaller communities and they were able to twist the message to fit their world view.

The only power he really has as an individual is to keep on course and try not to concern himself too much with how people twist his messages, that's also the strength of an individual over a movement or group, those can be highjacked, a person can't (generally speaking)...it's an endless whack a mole game.

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Btw I want to thank you for discussing this stuff in good faith. From my point of view there is no “winning” in this discussion. I’m only trying to come to the truth with you. If I’m wrong on something I would love to be shown new information so I can better inform my opinion. To summarize my thoughts is this:

Self help is great, the person you consume it from is important. Peterson has enough problematic material in conjunction with the good stuff that it is a potential minefield for radicalization. YouTube exacerbates this process but the truth is the same, Peterson can lead you down some dark paths. For this reason I don’t think it’s reasonable to propagate his content when less problematic people willing to tell you the same information exist.

I believe this is a fair take on the man, if I’m wrong somewhere I would be happy to discuss it here, over private message or discord. I wish more people chatted with an interest in learning, something you have shown well in this discussion.

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Yeah like jfc. I like him, he has especially great views in addiction. But he muddles facts all the time lol. Here, have some thoughts on his weird ass lobster human correlation:

"However, using the coincidence of serotonin as the supposed basis for behavioural parallels between lobsters and humans – trumpeted during the Channel 4 interview, again to give off the impression of scientific authority – has been expertly dismantled by the biologist PZ Myers. Evidently irked by Peterson's intellectual overreaching, Myers claims that Peterson has "built a case on false facts and distortions of general observations from the scientific literature. He has not demonstrated anything about socio-cultural constructions. Not only does he get the evidence wrong, he can't construct any kind of logical argument…"

Worse still, Myers argues, there is an ideological motive for all this: "Peterson is distorting the evidence to fit an agenda… It's appalling the degree to which this man is asserting nonsense with such smug confidence. This man is lying to you."

https://www.vice.com/en/article/evqekn/the-fundamental-errors-of-jordan-peterson

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It doesnt logically address the points she made, it creates additional data points that add context, but political and economic power being held by mostly men means issues which effect females more are going to be given less consideration. It is classic whataboutism. Doesnt respond to the point and deflects by shifting the discussion. Now if you are emotionally biased on this issue you are probably not going to see that because you are not logically analyzing what the arguments are. It is a central problem with Peterson that he doesnt make a logical arguments based on factual premises, but rather uses emotional language to avoid the issues. There are plenty of deconstructions about this on YouTube and such but you have to want to get to the truth to invest your time, not simply looking for confirmation bias like it seems most people are doing

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Whataboutism has been horrendously abused and twisted into dismissal of arguments longer than a sound bite or zinger. If you pay attention what he is countering is the assertion of a male dominated society; with the exception of an extreme outlier (~1% of society) men absolutely do not dominate society. If that were the case, all the extremely negative facts he pointed out would not be suffered by the very group who "dominates" because they wouldn't allow it if they really were dominating.

In a world "dominated by men" women would be forced to fight the wars, would be the ones overwhelmingly doing the shit work (mining, sanitation, construction laborers), and men would never be homeless/poor. Modern day feminists paint this picture where women have the short end of the stick and the facts don't support that except in the tiniest minority.

Arguing the whole picture instead of a targeted talking point is not whataboutism.

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You expect me to educate you on how flawed the conclusions leftists and feminists take on the inequality of outcome which they then demand massive, sexist changes across the entire society because they believe thats some indicator of inequality of opportunity in a Reddit post?

Plenty of far better educated and articulate people have written thousands of books, papers, and posted thousands of videos addressing that. Feel free to step out of your echo chamber and consider the fact you may be well-meaning but ultimately misinformed.

You're not going to get your gotcha moment with me by demanding I take time out of my day to educate you on something you're just going to disregard anyway because you're just trying to be right.

What you folks always seem to not comprehend is that many of us used to buy the plausible sounding but flawed rhetoric. I've read and at one point believed the bullshit, I know the Cult Mysteries.

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For me, a lot of it does come down to hypocrisy. He's said many times that people suffering addiction need to be strong enough to go cold turkey (I'm absolutely paraphrasing here), and yet he himself is addicted to benzos and literally went to Russia seeking a dangerous medical intervention to kick his habit. Bear in mind, I'm not trying to mock him for seeking medical help--I just think he should be held to the same standards he preaches.

Meanwhile, regarding his anti-feminist rhetoric, I get what he's saying in the clip in this post. I agree that feminism can go too far; however, I also think it's BS to try to swing the argument the other way. Not all men are evil, but to say that women haven't been repressed in any way is just silly--women in the United States haven't been able to legally vote for as long as men have. Equality shouldn't be looked at as a floodgate, where the moment someone has the same rights they are "equal." These things have lasting repercussions that shouldn't be brushed aside.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this argument, but I personally believe that we all need to actively avoid echo chambers if all sorts.

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Looked it up:

Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.

“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”

I'm not going to spend more time looking into this because it's gross and it makes me angry. And also, there's no context other where this is an ethical statement.

Yes, saying that part of the problem is that they don't have partners, and that we need to make sure that they are, as a society, is taking blame away from them. It's saying that it's society's fault because they don't have partners. That's fucked up. Like super fucked up.

And yes, saying that the cure for their mass murders is enforced monogamy, in the context of the topic, is saying that, in order to prevent mass murders, a woman should be forced to marry them.

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The thing you said he said and the thing he said are not in anyway the same thing. "Society working to make sure those men are married" is about fostering conditions where men are more likely to find a partner and get married. At no point was "forcing" or even "women" brought up, he specifically said partners so they could be male as well.

I know what you're thinking, how can society impact marriage? Think about it this way for males they are seen by society as having to take charge and ask someone out. At the same time if they are turned down they are seen as weak and mocked. If you do get the date then it's seen as the males job to pay for the date and if things go well take the other person back to his place. Today though it's a growing trend due that young adults are still living at home so they can't bring a date home and if you're not well off enough to live alone you might have money to pay for the date. It creates tons of anxiety that often times outweighs the benefit of even trying for a lot of people. So as a society if we make it socially acceptable for male and female to equally ask the other out, split the bill, decrease time working so there is more time for socializing, increase pay so moving out is possible and/or decrease housing costs then there might be more happy people and less violence.

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Obviously I'm not speaking for anyone else, but something I appreciate with him is that he won't get drawn into an argument where he disagrees with the premises or where the person's claims are too fuzzy to really engage with.

It's really common for people to try to railroad through really big claims that aren't clear and of dubious truthfulness, and then just not actually get challenged on it. I like that he stands up against that.

As an example of that kind of pattern people engage in (from my own life, not from a Peterson video) is someone saying something like "we all know the DNC rigged the primary." Well, no, we don't all know that. In fact, I don't even know what you mean by "rigged." And when pressed turns out the person I was talking to couldn't explain what they mean by "rigged" either and the claim that the 2020 primary was rigged was based on just "well they did it to Bernie last time."

Seeing him cut through this kind of bullshit has made it easier to not only recognize when I see it in my life, but to also feel more confident pushing back against it. If you feel like you're constantly surrounded by that type of bullshit, Peterson's style can be very powerful.

And a whole other reason: Lots of people struggle to find meaning in their life, and I think he gives folks a very powerful answer. Meaning comes from responsibility. In a society where we're often taught to avoid having responsibility, it's like flipping on a light switch.

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I started to like him some time ago and slowly began to come to this conclusion myself after watching more and more about him and noticing the people who love him most are neckbeards

I no longer watch this man because I see him as an aspiring cult leader. He's great at arguing, so good you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who can argue against him successfully. My biggest thing is is hypocrisy when it came to drugs for instance, and his instance that he is a logical man who appears to be bound by science but he actually believes in deeply conservative held christian values and admits this.

For the racism, no I do not remember the exact clip if many I saw and no I don't care to look them up and rewatch him to find some specific "gotchya". I will be downvoted either way because this man is so good at what he does, better than I'll ever be at trying to convince you of my feelings of him.

Do you find yourself immediately downvoting my original post because you agree with what he said? My advice is to have skepticism and continue watching. I hope that you all are able to come to the conclusions that I did when I was first introduced to him and went down that rabbit hole.

He's excellent as using points that appeal to you (men), your insecurities, and your sense of injustice as a man to persuade his points. He masks emotional response in cherry picked data. He is exceptionally well prepared for his arguments and I think he's very talented at that.

He is a snake that is both for and against everything at the same time so that you are able to project some of your own beliefs to what he is saying. Ask Jordan Peterson if he is Conservative, Right-Wing, and Religious and you will get no clean cut answer though to most people who can observe what he says and does, can easily say that it appears that those three designations would apply.

He possesses all of the skills a cult leader would dream of. Y'all can make the decisions yourselves after watching more of his content but I would ask you to be aware that you might be getting played by a very talented charlatan.

You can start on the Wikipedia page for him. Politics and Religion are good sections. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

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To address only one small point without any concern for whether Peterson is a scam artist overall, from what I can tell regarding his religious views, he's a literal atheist but he also has a deep cultural and emotional affinity for Christianity, which feeds back into him constantly trying to justify its existence on logical grounds, such as its value providing order and values etc. Some might portray his evasiveness here as a calculated strategy to pander to everyone. I think that's incorrect. I think the man struggles to articulate a definite stance on religion due to genuinely never having resolved the contradictions and tensions contained within his position, and that's because, ironically, he's smart but not as smart as people assume he is. (A lot of his fans will never understand this because they know nothing about Marxism and because Zizek is a crazy oddball who will always take an interesting path over an effective one, but it was a shockingly poorly thought out decision for Peterson to engage him in a debate on that subject after only reading The Communist Manifesto. Whether or not you agree with Marxism, that text represents about as much of it as Carl Sagan's Cosmos does of the field of Cosmology. Imagine citing that show repeatedly while having a 'debate' with Stephen Hawking. It's comical.)

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Can you explain to me which of his opinions are extremely racist?

Peterson's racism is an extension of his belief in essentialism and heirarchies.

If black people have it worse in society, get lower IQ scores, make less money, are disproportionately criminalized, etc... then it must be something inherent in their culture or biology that causes those things.

Now he won't say anything that blatant (though he's gotten close when talking about IQ), but he consistently makes these points indirectly.

He does the same thing with women. He often gets very close to a "women should get back in the kitchen where they belong" argument.

I'll add on that while his self help stuff has some good advice, it comes alongside his belief that all heirarchies are justified and therefore you shouldn't do any work externally to make society a more fair and equitable place.

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Leaving anyone’s health to someone that believes in an afterlife or “god’s plan” is irresponsible and highly dangerous.

Who’s putting words in people’s mouth now?

Science and religion are 100% incompatible.

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about science, scientists, or the type of questions science is capable of addressing. All those Nobel-prize winning, religious scientists must have been frauds then?

Literally the only stance you can take in this argument, without denying the reality that there are plenty of religious and very successful scientists, is by drawing lines as to what qualifies as “religious”.

Can someone think logically if they believe there is a big guy in the sky controlling every aspect of life? Of course not. But that’s not what all religious people believe. So you are stuck in a position of arguing what is “religious” vs what isn’t. Which hilariously puts you in the same camp as the fundamentalists you are so vehemently opposed to.

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Literally you, by claiming that all religious people believe in “God’s plan”. You clearly think every religious person is a fundamentalist. You have a very set idea on what a “religious” person must believe or how they think. I’m trying to tell you that is a very close minded view and precisely why you are not understanding that scientists can still be religious.

There are questions that science simply cannot answer and I mean this in a logical sense and not “we don’t have the technology yet”. Some people choose to hold beliefs that try to answer these questions. Since there is no evidence or means to scientifically address those questions we call it faith.

It’s an entirely different realm than science. They can operate perfectly fine independently of one another. How else could there be wildly successful, extremely intelligent scientists that hold religious beliefs? You are arguing against a reality that exists right in front of us.

You know of a major religion which has no god?

Buddhism

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I agree/disagree with the chick and the dude, BUT she represents a part of the affected pie and he's representing a part of the affected pie. They are barking up the wrong tree. But this is how the interview was set up as. Extreme ends of the conversation, Red vs Blue, men vs women, lib vs cons, right vs left.

They are literally positioned to just argue over each other and never putting their guard down to see the people in the middle that don't agree with both but are forced to choose sides.

Its great popcorn material, but that's where it needs to stop, but it doesn't and this normalized manner of discussion is problematic.

This isn't pussypassdenied material imho, but I say this as a casual observer from /all. Top 1% control 30%+ the wealth of the US and they hold the control to policy making that affects BOTH genders and truthfully, they are dominated by males. Having a system that supports women to those positions might balance the policy making but realistically, the top 1% needs to have less wealth. It's conflict of interest when you have policy makers /industry influencers making money off the stock market and public valuations when they are in control of the policies.

If compound interest means anything, the top 1% will just continue to grow in wealth, creating a larger disparity between the have and have nots.

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Do you think it's fair to extrapolate the attributes of the society-dominating type of males (eg Trump, McConnell, Boris Johnson, Jair Bolsonaro, take your pick) onto all males?

Your question doesn't matter to the point we are talking about. No, not all men have the same personality traits, however most of the world in politics and business is run by men so it is by definition a male-dominated world. It may be dominated by one specific type of male but still MALE.

On average women live longer than men, work less hours, have a significantly lower suicide rate and make up a minority of war casualties - would you expect that if society was truly male-dominated? What is your explanation for those differences in a male-dominated society? I am male, but I am not one of those leaders, CEOs, or top wage earners you refer to, am I contributing to this male-dominance?

Who do women live longer than men?

https://ourworldindata.org/why-do-women-live-longer-than-men

Why do women work fewer hours?

https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041

Why do women make up a minority of war casualties?

Because they were not allowed in most cases to go to war? They were seen as weak and subservient and needed to stay home and make babies.

Why do more men commit suicide?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women

None of the claims you made point to a non male-dominated society in fact most of them prove it. A male-dominated society also doesn't mean that men don't struggle or have unique issues to deal with.

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Hmm I feel like I didn't make my point clear, I thought I could get away with an over-simplification. And to your point Obama was clearly an outlier within the "ruling class".

What I'm saying is that we can't take one characteristic that unites those who oppress and take that to mean that those who have that characteristic are oppressors.

Much in the same way that the black man who was wrongfully incarcerated because of racial profiling feels particularly disenfranchised and insulted when some idiot says "Racism is dead: Obama is president", men who are suffering in this system feel particularly insulted and disenfranchised when some idiot says that they're the oppressors in the very same system that is beating them down.

This is the bullshit of identity politics or whatever is the right thing to call it. We can't even begin to discuss important, complex, nuanced problems because any argument is immediately boiled down to who it seems to support. White Vs Black, Men Vs Women, Right Vs Left. It's ridiculous. It's like an obscene rounding error. 1.449 is roughly 1.5, not 2. I probably could have phrased that better but wtv.

Now if I can put on my tinfoil hat, I think that this is by design and that while we waste time getting polarised and bickering and boiling down reasonable arguments into absurd soundbites the real "oppressors" go on business as usual, occasionally adding a bit of fuel to the fire and calming us down with simple "solutions"

Anyways, rant over.

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Cute. You were antagonized and you were fighting with me? When did this happen? Because I won't define feminism? Read a history book or the wikipedia page.

From my perspective, the issue here is that there is no good reason to take you seriously. You sound like someone crashing a stranger's funeral whining about "what about my lost ones!!!?? Wah wah wah 😭😭". It is like someone rejecting black lives matter with all lives matter. Who said only black lives matter? Or who will hire a consulting firm which doesn't offer any constructive feedback?

The placating from naysayers is real and transparent.

You may not like it but don't be surprised the response you get when you engage in this manner you get asked to get out of the way. You are not helping. You either choose to contribute to change for the better or be left behind so that society continues to improve itself. That's not antagonizing or fighting you, that's just basic fact.

We can go farther together, we both inherited a messy world and it will stay messy if we have fights instead of conversations.

I agree with this sentiment. I just wish it was not made in the context of r/pussypassdenied. I guess you won't see how this comes across as gatekeeping or contradictory.

There is nothing stopping you to create a movement of your own to improve men's quality of life. There are myriads of movements out there calling for social change already. So it is not that hard. You could have easily done something else, instead you choose to be against feminism.

Edits: words and better phrasing.

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You nail it on the head, what's this pissing war about who has it worse, we can make this world a better place. I personally have heard someone say we couldn't hire her, a big boobed small blonde entering people's house to do work by herself. Not good. we'll why the fuck am I entering by myself then? I have also seen a desk job not go to a male because he speaks to everyone that enters the office. Fighting each other just keeps us where the 1% would like us to be.

To go onto his post about more males die in war . . . Yes that death doesn't have ripples, that effects, their children, their wife, their community, their city, their country, the world. War is horrible. Why focus on who has it worse rather then focus on the Key root of the problem. That's my issue with this type of debate

the immediate downvote just shows how they have you in a us versus them war. Give your head a shake

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This sub isnt "fuck yeah take that women" it's more like "Just because you have a vagina doesn't mean you're right."

I mean, that's what the title of this sub implies. But one glance at the front page and... It's sort of clear that it's much closer to "fuck yeah take that women."

The main problem is that most of the content on this sub isnt featuring women who think they are right because they are women, then getting shown wrong. Most are just anecdotes about women being stupid and getting in trouble. The whole narrative of "haha she thought she could get away with it because she has a vagina" is completely manufactured by the community 90% of the time.

Even in this video, which is closer to the spirit of the sub, the woman never does anything or says anything to imply that she thinks she's right just because she's a woman. In fact, she brings in a man to argue his viewpoint. The only "gender superiority complex" is in the comments, which imply that she thought she would win the debate simply because she had a vagina. Which is an accusation based on nothing.

What this video actually shows is a woman letting a man lay out his entire viewpoint without interrupting or getting riled up at all, in a respectful debate. What the hell does that have to do with a "pussy pass?"

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https://www.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/ltxzrk/woman_whips_off_her_thong_and_wears_it_as_face/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

• Unrelated to the "purpose" of the sub

And did you read the comments? The top comments are literally calling out that this doesn't fit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/lxe100/nosimp_repost_for_rule_10_violation/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

• Wow, someone told a woman to shut the fuck up! Super cool

No, someone told a woman to stop trying to normalize obsessing over someone because they have a vagina(simping). You could argue either way whether it fits this specific sub, I say it does(pussypass-worship me just because I have a vagina. Denied - Stfu), but either way it's not sexist which is what you claimed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/lvz454/when_your_tinder_date_you_been_texting_over_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

• A fake conversation in a meme designed to make women look bad for literally no reason

That is not a fake conversation. That's just a meme. No different from any other meme. 2. Designed to make women look bad? Lmao. It's a meme making fun of women who just go on dates just for free food. Unless YOU'RE implying all women do this, it is not in any way "designed to make woman look bad for literally no reason". I'll give you this, this one actually doesn't fit. Would fit better on /tinder, but again, it is in no way sexist, which is what your claiming. Try again champ.

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We watched the same interview right? Hell, this clip is just JP going off and missing the point entirely. "Men suffer more than women is his rebuttal", but that doesn't make it not a patriarchal society? "You're taking a tiny substrata of the population and applying it to everyone" no, it's taking the relevant substrata (those with power) and using it to define how power in our society is distributed. Those with power are overwhelmingly men who have historically obtained that power through inheriting it from their forefathers. That makes the society patriarchal. Those who suffer the most are men, which means that the patriarchal society also causes men without power to suffer. The two are not mutually exclusive points, they can both be true, but JP tries to act like they are as though it invalidates her argument.

Look at it seriously. Why do men suffer more? Because we're told men are strong and can handle suffering. Because we're told men should provide and self-sacrifice for others. Because we're told men don't need help and are always independent. And these societal beliefs are why men are more likely to reach and maintain positions of power, and also are why so many men without power suffer more than women. The same system which perpetuates male-dominance (patriarchy), also oppresses men. The oppression doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a patriarchy though.

Fuck it, let's go old-school kings and queens patriarchy. Definitively a patriarchy. Ownership of the kingdom goes directly father to closest male heir. Any queen is basically just holding the throne into she marries or gives birth to a son. In this system, a tiny minority of men are in control, while the vast majority of men are suffering in war or as serfs. Even among the famous and powerful, every daughter is a potential marriage, while every son after the first is only there to protect the security of the royal line. So the only person who benefits from this society is the first-born son, while all the others are oppressed by it. That doesn't make it not a patriarchy.

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The problem is that when people talk about "patriarchy" or (in the video) a "male-dominated society" is that the terms are horribly unclear.

One way of understanding it is "males as a class dominate society." To that I think a very strong response is "males as a class" isn't a thing. They don't act like a hive mind, they're not colluding to help men they've never met. There's no team, and when a Republican man sees a male Democrat elected President, they're not thinking "Yes! One of us!" and vice versa. Just doesn't make sense to talk about billions of people as a single group.

Another way of understanding "male-dominated society" is "the people in power are male." ...Except not entirely. Obviously many women are in positions of power. The people in power are disproportionately male, but to quote Peterson "let's be precise." ...And this takes a very narrow view of power, typically focusing only on high level politics and c-suit level executives. But power exists all over society. K-12 teachers are overwhelmingly female, and those are positions of tremendous influence. At home, women are often in charge of important things, like child rearing decisions and often also family finances. That's power. It makes sense to say "government is dominated by men" but society? That's a whole other claim.

The same system which perpetuates male-dominance (patriarchy), also oppresses men.

It ain't patriarchy telling men to be strong and independent though. It's post-Enlightenment transcendental democracy.

[–]DyslexicBrad1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

when a Republican man sees a male Democrat elected President, they're not thinking "Yes! One of us!"

I wanna challenge this point. Why do you think that is? You are obviously suggesting that it's because men don't see each other as sharing "being a man" as a trait in common, but I really do want to challenge the thought. Personally, I believe that the reason why men don't see it as a "one of us" situation, is because men being the president is the "default". There's never been a woman president. And every time there is the chance for that, you get a lot of sexism directed her way. So sure, maybe there's nobody cheering in the streets that a man became president, but I think you'll find there's a lot of people who cheer that a woman doesn't.

K-12 teachers are overwhelmingly female, and those are positions of tremendous influence

My leg's being pulled here. C'mon dude. You're telling me a kindergarten teacher has as much influence and power as a senator? As a CEO? As the principal of the school? As a member of the education committee who gets to decide what gets taught? This is like saying the fry cook at McDonald's has a lot of power over the customers, so it's not fair to say that the CEO of McDonald's is more powerful than the fry cook.

[–]bl1y1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

is because men being the president is the "default"

To clarify, men being the President is not the default. The President being a man is.

But besides that, let's look at the 2016 Democratic primary. It sure looks like Democrats were not voting primarily on gender lines, but rather ideological ones. And in the general election, we didn't see a vast realignment of Democratic men voting for Trump or Republican women voting for Clinton. Do male Democrats feel their interests are better represented by Nancy Pelosi or Kevin McCarthy?

You're telling me a kindergarten teacher has as much influence and power as a senator?

No, and I never said as such so I'd appreciate it if you not pretend that I did. I said teachers do have power. Of course an individual teacher is not as powerful as a CEO, but there's over 3 million teachers, and every single one of them does wield a rather important amount of influence and power.

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I suggest you take a listen of what he speaks by yourself rather instead of holding an opinion based on word of mouth of other people. I'm telling you as a person that's been indulging themself with his content over the last 3 months very actively.

The problem comes from his opinion, without fact, that men represent order and women represent chaos.

You can define "fact" however your wish for yourself, and anyone else can, but there's a limited amount of ways in which you can conducd yourself while remaining functional in the society. First off, don't take everything so literally. The person that told you that lied to you. You should listen to what the meaning of him saying that "women are chaos while men are order", without taking it so literally. To begin with, it's a topic that can only be inacurrately and incorrectly as you've now demonstrated convey by using a single sentence like that because many people take things too literaly. If you go through his content yourself, you'll not only know that he is not the kind of person to throw around opinions as fact, but that he is actually a doctor who has his field of expertiese, the conclusions of which, like of any other field, are determined to be fact until whatever might happen later on.

If you would like to learn more about Peterson, you should do so through him, not through what others are saying about him, be it me, or "fair criticism".

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There are so many things in your post that I could respond to. But I’ve been around the berry bush so many times that I already know how it will go: I can provide all the sources in the world that show that women have always held a privileged place in society, not being forced to work, forced to provide for their families despite obvious physical disabilities, and women have never been forced to die by the millions in war like men have. And if you think THAT last little bit was ‘other men’ you can look up the white feather campaign. But it will never matter how much evidence I provide. You’re not actually interested in debate. You’re actually just interested in promoting a narrative that is all you know. You have not figured out what truth is, not because you can’t, but because you don’t want to. Any sources I could provide are not really relevant according to you, you will always have a thing to nit-pick because you have started with the assumption that women were historically disadvantaged and still are today and anything that might contradict that way of thinking instantly becomes false. Nothing you can do. Nothing I can do.

[–]irisheddy0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, women held those places but you need to ask why they did. Was it because women chose to not go to war? You do know they literally weren't allowed to go war by men. They weren't allowed to work, by men. So the "privilege" was given by men.

Who forced millions of men to die in world war 2? Was it all those female leaders?

assumption that women were historically disadvantaged

You mean the fact that women weren't seen as equal to men? Can you tell me why women weren't allowed to vote until quite recently? Can you tell me why women weren't allowed to join the army?

You seem to think women decided they just wouldn't do those things. No, they just didn't have permission.

If men didn't go happily to war they were seen as cowards, do you think this has anything to do with masculinity?

Let me ask you this: are men encouraged to cry? Why or why not?

Men are very much victims of the toxic parts of masculinity, so are women.

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Well if you’re genuinely asking for an answer, the answer is no. One of the largest causes of suicide in the world is when a man’s family is torn apart by things like his wife cheating, his wife taking the kids in a system designed to see her as the default parent and him as only money to provide to her. That child support loop a lot of people get into is responsible for tons of deaths. When I say men are the overwhelming majority of war deaths and you say that men sent them, you miss the point. Don’t believe me? Look up the white feather campaign. Also who has opposed changing the male only draft? Women. About 60-70 percent of men voted to remove it the last time someone tried. Only 30% of women voted for it, and as a direct result of that, the motion didn’t pass. Men are more likely to be incarcerated because feminists and women have promoted the notion that women are harmless, women shouldn’t be punished for their actions, but men should be punished for both their actions and the actions of their wives.

The narrative you’re pushing? It’s simply that women are disadvantaged as compared to men in our society. It’s factually untrue and promotes all kinds of horrible things. When you tell a group “You are oppressed” you give them a free pass to do whatever the hell they want. No human needs that much power. We need laws and structure and consequences. Society (and this is what you are unfortunately encouraging by promoting this narrative) is removing lots of consequences for women and harshening them for men. Men oppose this, but women don’t oppose it because it’s easier to accept. Some very indoctrinated men do in fact support things like this, for example the recent push to remove jail as a penalty... for women only... ignoring that the horrible things that happen to women in jail also happen to men in jail. And I’m sure you’re going to say that other men in jail do it. That’s partially true, but also women in jail do some of the same things and sometimes do them worse.

Does that answer your question?

Or did you already have the answer to your question so you’re uninterested in listening to mine?

[–]Edd_da_lead0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am very uninterested in listening to your answer. You say im not interested in facts but you havent provided any avidence for your claims. And ill tell you what more women consider suicide than men three times as much. The only difference is that men have more access to lethal means of suicide. How do you know the biggest reason for male suicide is because of a torn family. And really dude more men go to jail because men are more likely to commit a crime yes women get a pass but they are not leading the crime rate now are they. Also thank you for providing a single reason for why more man go to war and completely ignoring the whole history in which women have been forbidden from joining any form of military. And again im not pushing any narrative im simply telling you to question everything to dig deeper when you are trying to make an argument against any case really. You saw that this dude "owned" the interviewer and thought yup thats it he is 100 percent right. No you need better arguements

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One of the crazier true facts, that has never not been met with great anger and incredulity, is the fact there are more male victims of rape than women. Certainly in the United States, possibly in the world. This is forcefully rejected, it must be false!

Until you consider the truly vast discrepancy in prison populations by gender, and then consider further even the most conservative estimations for the prevalence of prison rape.

The rest of the guys points are spot on, altho I do see it as a bit misleading to frame the question in a 'men vs women's context. The original claim by the interviewer is, mostly, true after all. The patriarchy is very real, it definitely exists. But as the gentleman alluded to, the patriarchy is a relative handful of men sitting atop the pyramid, with most everyone else scattered into various hierarchies below.

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Sean Fortune, a personal trainer and running coach in New York City, isn't surprised by the study's findings. "As a trainer, I know some very strong females," he says. "But it's safe to say that, generally speaking, it's easier for men to develop not just upper-body strength, but strength in any body part, simply because of the hormonal advantage of having more testosterone." Indeed, testosterone has proven anabolic effects, stimulating muscle growth by binding to skeletal fibers and boosting the growth of proteins, the building blocks of muscle. Because women, on average, possess about one-tenth the testosterone levels of men, it makes sense that they'd have more difficulty developing upper-body strength.

https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/do-men-develop-upper-body-strength-easier

Like I said Basic Biology and Common Sense

PS: Women have denser bones apparently but men have more bone mass. I was wrong about the density part.

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[–]Numero341 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah. In Canada at least, I find it rather amazing how so many people seem to accept the highly intangible and poorly constructed claim about white privilege/supremacy this, systemic discrimination that, while completely ignoring that our Charter is written to allow special treatment for minorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_15_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Text

(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

15.2 basically nullifies 15.1 as it creates exceptions to a mandate that is supposedly about equality for all.

While not necessarily in their founding documents, I'm sure the US and UK have similar policies elsewhere.

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I understood that from your interpretation and that's what I argued against, I understand the difference between systemic power and individual action, the problem, is that these lines become blurred by the proponents of "white privilege".

I'm saying the rhetoric that's used is vitriolic and does a disservice to the movement. A white person cannot control that they're less likely to experience discrimination on a day-to-day basis, a white person objectively, cannot control or inform the actions of random white people on the street. If someone decides to act ignorant or out of character, espousing racist jargon, then that should be a personal fault on that individual and not ascribed as a fault that the entire populace needs to correct. I would imagine it is quite difficult for many people, to stomach this ideology, knowing that it's logical conclusion, is them being blamed for something out of their control.

The issue itself isn't systemic, however it is argued as though it is, and as though this is a moral failing on the white majority. Whenever white privilege is argued to me, there isn't just the citation of "black people are more likely to be subject to racism during the day", which is an irreversibly true assertion, but in tandem, it is also said that "black people are more likely to be convicted of a crime" or "there are large sentencing discrepancies between white and black people despite committing the same crime", which is true once more, however, with the citation of these systemic issues, the message becomes that much harder to explain to the public. The agreeable assertion, "black people are more likely to be subject to racism during the day" is infused with a systemic issue that cannot be controlled for. It's not that people need to be educated, it's that these messages need to be coherent. I understand the differences between privilege and supremacy as I've been invested in political discussions, however, the same cannot be said for anyone else who consumes these messages nor should it be expected of them.

So it makes it difficult for me to explain to the average white guy, who is bombarded with narratives that use systemic faults to paint him as the recipient of some undeserved privilege, that "they really mean this" or "you should try to understand them more", when that expectation of competency lies on those who espouse those narratives in the first place. What you've said here is a beneficial interpretation, as it's something that most could agree with, but when these engagements occur online or in other areas of discussion it is never just "white people don't experience racism", it goes further than that which is why so many take issue with it

You don't come off as demeaning at all either.

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I don’t see what he says as sexist at all. She said there’s dominance and he’s saying but men suffer and are poor and stupid too so fundamentally men aren’t better than women. To me the battle of sexes seems to be much more one of misunderstanding than anything else. In this day it’s easy to take your stance because it’s one that’ll get praise. His basic point most of the time is “well what responsibility do you take here?” If the answer is none, then that’s part of the problem. When you answer honestly you’re having a conversation that minimizes the war between men and women, which I think is a good thing. Where is he sexist? I’m not even someone who’s an Uber fan, but people who scream against him seem to have not much more to stand on other than his battle with drugs and him inherently being sexist because he doesn’t think men have that much dominance over women. If a persons main message is “take responsibility and see what happens” and the collective response is repulsion, I think that’s much more a problem than anything else personally.

[–]MountainSuperb4170-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HooliganS_Only1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do women lose value to you once they’ve lost their virginity? Do you know the original significance of virginity and what it’s supposed to mean? If you did you know how we got here — and it is skewed. I disagree fully. The best people in my life are women. Nothing is perfect and we make improvements all the time. And I believe that improvement comes with looking at myself and having hard conversations like this. Men make a lot of those laws, but what about that bitch that came up in congress undoing the work of RBG? That was a woman, against women. What about the shame of being a novel beauty all the time? That comes from women against women too. Men don’t help it, but much more women care if another woman wore the same dress twice or whatever. It’s a collective arch where both parties are responsible and by not taking responsibility then we give power to the actual issue. Which is the institutions, which are run by men largely I’ll give you that, but it’s such a small percentage of men that how are you more likely to say men are the cause over the church as a whole, for example? You call me a cancer because you don’t know me and I slightly challenged you. That’s not how you get to the bottom of things. Come with the desire to understand and I bet you conversations like this go better. We’re on the same team dude, I want the best for everyone. I just want the proper enemy outlined... not some age old scape goat that hasn’t done very much for the progression of society.

[–]MountainSuperb41701 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wow you really opened the door here. 1.) You made a blanket generalization of the all the men making terrible legislation, and then said that one bitch to refer to ONE SINGLE WOMAN. All the men who are worse than this ONE WOMAN get shrugged off because it’s so TYPICAL but because this ONE WOMAN isn’t typical, she’s a bitch. That alone speaks volumes. She is already held to such a higher standard than all the rest of the men, and she slips and you don’t even say anything about Mitch McConnell but I assume you’re a trumpet. 2.)fashion? Really? War, prison, suicide.... but fashion? That’s where you go? VOLUMES. This isn’t about women tearing each other down. That isn’t part of the argument. Ooooh bullying is real. Different topic. 3.) You realize that the ecclesiastical governments are generally COMPLETELY MEN? How many women have been pope? How many of the priest who molested children were men? Every one of them. 4.) WE are not on the same team. You don’t see the issue and you don’t see how insidiously these people have crawled into your mind with pervasive dangerous rhetoric, incomplete statistics, and such a push to maintain docility in society and here you come to defend him. KING AND COUNTRy KNIGHT you are

[–]HooliganS_Only1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But I’m most definitely not a trumpet. There’s a saying about making assumptions... I think all politics are a joke and they are all garbage and deserve to rot in jail for the most of them. Plenty of women do things against their own gender seemingly, I just gave easy examples that can be extrapolated to a larger scope. My greater point is that men and women are both affect negatively by the “patriarchy”. The sexes just have different tendencies of coping so it’s harder to notice. We shouldn’t confuse our enemies with other people who are suffering. It’s institutions. They were started by men, and sexism exists, of course. But if we keep it so general, we spend more time fighting each other than the actual cause... like this right here. She is a bitch. And so it Mitch McConnell. So is Trump.

But you said JPB keeps the sexist status quo, but how if he says right off the bat that men aren’t fundamentally better than women. I started off addressing that. Me not saying something specific in the form on mobile online discussion doesn’t mean that I believe all the things you accused me of. Huge fallacy. We could expand this topic all day and if it was in person we’d probably leave as friends. I’m super reasonable and I’m not trying to attack you at all... not like you’re trying to do to me.

[–]MountainSuperb41701 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are states that still have child marriage laws that allow for underage marriage to save men from being prosecuted for rape. That is literally a thing. Like think about that. That is a shitty example for you to “extrapolate” FURTHERMORE idgaf about this guy. I don’t know anything about this guy and I don’t care to know. I’ve been arguing this instance. And in this instance he said some dumbshit that didn’t mean anything except to detract from real fucking issues. If this dude isn’t a complete idiot then it is even more unfortunate that he wants to be in the victim group because that means more intelligent people want to blame kings instead of the people who bring the kings to power. And in the grand scheme of things, women have only recently been able to have ANY say in the political makeup of society unless by “divine right”. So the basic structure of society is a long chain of men agreeing to do worse and worse things to people so those things won’t happen to them and everybody just played along forever and some of you guys are still ready to play along and you don’t even know the game or the stakes you just want to argue with the people who are like LOOK AT THE WORDS YOU ARE SAYING because you don’t like to feel challenged at your core for.... being a victim I guess? I’m not sure any more about why you people feel the need to defend kings 🤷‍♂️

[–]MountainSuperb41700 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HooliganS_Only2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But I didn’t do those things and I physically speak up every time someone is disparaged in front of me. I’m all for sticking up for people and listening. But even if your follow up to your own comment you point out another institutional problem. I think all rapist should die slow, and what women go thru is terrible. It just quickly becomes all men vs all women and that’s what I’m against here. I think framing the conversation this way makes fragile men feel attacked and thus less likely to listen. Whereas if you isolate where it actually comes from — institutions like governments and church. Which are run by men of course, but again, to say that I have to take accountability for women having to carry rape babies to term, but I’ve never raped someone, doesn’t make sense. I’m not saying terrible things don’t happen to women unfairly. Instead of seeing that I’m literally only saying we shouldn’t pit the sexes against each other in the way that we do because it breeds misunderstanding and discontent for the other, you’d rather resort to assumptions to use buzz words to make me seem bad and dehumanize me. Just to “win” this conversation? When the opposition is really the institutions. Whoever is at the top of them doesn’t really matter to me, and I shouldn’t be held accountable for shit I’ve never done and for shit I actively do something about when it occurs in front of me. So how else should I fight this fight bro? I only want everyone to come to true understanding so we can actually evolve and move forward. The same level of thinking that got us into problems will not get us out of them. If this is how you bring this conversation to people no shit men get defensive and take an opposing stance.

[–]MountainSuperb41700 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well first off this is the wrong fight. If you want to go vehemently jump into some shit when you “speak up whenever you see.... this is such a long nothing anecdotal diatribe. Like wtf I didn’t say you were a rapist. I’m saying consider the fact that there are so many dilemmas you don’t even consider when you white knight into this fight with me. It’s not a matter of us putting the sexes against each other. Enough of us don’t care about the politics behind this shit that we’ve allowed this shit to continue. Wtf are you trying to say? Not all men are bad? Congratulations you’re right. Not all men are bad. Too bad that’s not what the argument ever was. The argument was: we live in a male dominated society, and everything you’ve had to say to me in this discourse is in line with that argument. You don’t even know what you’re fighting or defending you just wanted to be a victim and congratulations nobody wins 👏 And “I don’t like your tone I’m not listening” is a pretty childish defense. I mean, I get it, but it’s just immature thinking. Mature people can get past the packaging

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Women have to fight constantly for everything. They are paid less, they have to work harder than men to be considered equally skilled. They are discouraged from going into entire fields like science or technology, which are filled with toxic men and have to deal with sexism and sexual harassment every step of the way, in ways that you or I would find mind boggling if they were happening to us. They are an afterthought in medical research, both for procedures and for medications. That is in addition to doctors generally not taking women as seriously in consultations because they are assumed to exaggerate pain. They are even more likely to die in car accidents because cars are designed and tested with crash test dummies that are shaped and sized like men.

I could go on an on. I’m not even saying there are no ways in which women are at an advantage but that doesn’t really help in any way.

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As could we. There are studies refuting nearly every point you made. Studies found that in countries where equality was higher, women chose STEM less and less. Studies found that when women are skilled, people tend to believe their competence much more easily than if they were male. Sexual harassment does happen to men in the workplace by women all the time. I should know, happened to me, unless now you’re going to outright say my experience is invalid simply because it fails to fit your preconceived notions. Studies have shown that doctors tend to believe women are being honest about their symptoms about twice as often as men, since men are expected to be stoic by... guess who... women... they tend to downplay their pain and any symptoms. Women die more in car crashes because the ratio of small accidents caused by women to the large deadly accidents caused by women is much higher than that of men. Statistically if a woman causes a crash, it tends to be more fatal to BOTH parties regardless of gender.

You say there are no facts to contradict you. This is not the case. A more accurate statement is that there are no facts that you will listen to that contradict you. You will likely respond with a lengthy demand for sources or that I should prove my points in some way, when in reality I followed the same standards of citation and proof that you did, and even if I should decide to include all my sources, you still wouldn’t believe me. Why? Because my facts get in the way of your narrative. And you don’t like that.

Now if you’re actually as open-minded as you claim, why not do a little research yourself, see what you can find? I’ll tell you right now though, you won’t find anything for one simple reason. You don’t want to find anything that contradicts your beliefs that men rule the world. To you, this belief is more important than reality.

And that, my friend, is truly, truly sad.

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It is not forcing people to say pronouns, which for one who cares. In his interviews he talks about not being forced by someone to address them a certain way, which like who honestly gives a fuck. Basic human decency and not being a complete asshole to an already discriminated group of people is not a big request.

20 years ago he would have been railing on about gay marriage ruining society.

The bill was to address discrimination. Like how you can't discriminate against women, or people of colour, or religion, or ethnicity. Now it is just gender-identity, it is not complicated.

Peterson gained notoriety last year for his continued refusal to use gender-neutral pronouns to address his students. In a series of videos, he claimed that his free speech is threatened by what he considers to be “political correctness,” and that the bill is a slippery slope to a “totalitarian regime.”

https://torontoist.com/2017/05/room-jordan-peterson-senators-debated-human-rights/

Still waiting for people to get locked up, any day we will have a totalitarian regime that...forces us to conform to a certain set of beliefs and norms...oh wait, wouldn't preventing discrimination make it easier to have a wider range of beliefs and norms. Shouldn't we welcome more diversity to prevent totalitarianism and control?

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It was never the purpose or intent, he just makes up these slippery slope arguments. If it was 20 years earlier he'd be railing about how gay marriage is going to ruin the fabric of society, and people will be fined for not reciprocating attraction to the same sex or some garbage.

No one is forced to do anything, the bill was to increase protections for a group that always existed and will continue to exist. Canada did nothing special, it was not a complicated to topic. We are now in the phase of transpeople being the end of society, unlike gay people 20 years ago. Gender neutral bathrooms, pronouns, oh noooo how will we survive letting people live their lives without fear of discrimination and retribution for existing.

Peterson gained notoriety last year for his continued refusal to use gender-neutral pronouns to address his students. In a series of videos, he claimed that his free speech is threatened by what he considers to be “political correctness,” and that the bill is a slippery slope to a “totalitarian regime.”

https://torontoist.com/2017/05/room-jordan-peterson-senators-debated-human-rights/

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Banned eye contact and hugging? You tell me to squeeze more water from the stone...

(which technically, grasping at straws would be a more appropriate statement for you to make, since squeezing water implies doing something that's difficult rather than grabbing at anything I can to prove my point)

...when you're just making false claims of getting the details wrong.

What you seem to be doing here is simply parroting JPs claims from a JRE interview. If you watch both clips one after another your see that JP is doing a few things:

Lying about the interviewers attitude.
Completely changing the context of his statements and trying to make them seem reasonable.

If you watch it, it's clear that JP is stating his views about makeup with absolute certainty. And is then mad about coming across in the way he did.

To answer your question the answer is always somewhere, you draw the line somewhere.

The whole purpose of these so called 'bans' is too set guidelines. If you know anything about legitimate sexual harassment claims in the workplace you'd know a couple of things.

It has to be pervasive and unwanted. Unless a person has already had numerous complaints of sexual harassment at work they aren't going to be fired for some simple misunderstanding. People like you seem to get the idea that you might accidentally harass someone a single time and get fired. Do you realize how severely you have to fuck up to get fired after one claim? It has to be nearly criminal.

It's not hard to not harass someone, if you do or say something that makes them uncomfortable you take that into consideration and you learn from it. Be a respectable adult for christs sake. Stop trying to avoid doing the work to grow and change by blaming the victims for being offended.

First if all, that Twitter link is an entire thread of bad takes and shit arguments. You didn't really put up any solid defenses there.

But to your point about self correcting, that's the problem with JP. He doesn't think through some of the most basic points he makes because he either doesn't expect push back or he's just making bad defenseless arguments.

"People should be able to discriminate against gays. Oh wait, that's no different than discriminating against race? How could I have not seen that basic comparison coming?? Is it because I'm bad at what I do? No, it's the liberals and their equality that's wrong."

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Sure. The lobster demonstrates that hierarchy is not a social construct, but a deep intrinsic brain function that is at least 400 million years old. It’s a counter to the claim that hierarchy is a social construct that can be completely torn up with positive effect.

Women being the embodiment of chaos is an archetypal symbol to portray reality’s constant balance between order and chaos. Also chaos is not even really a bad thing, it’s an engine for change, innovation, growth, opportunity, creativity, spontaneity, thrill, rebirth, laughter, and new/interesting things. Life without chaos is the life of a drone.

His only horrific mistake is letting his prescription medication get out of hand while his wife was in the daily verge of death for months. It doesn’t make him a bad person and doesn’t make him wrong.

And you still don’t know any of his arguments, and are willing to attach addiction as a stigma on someone’s entire life. Never tell anyone that you have any sympathy for depressed/anxious people addicted to their prescription medication. Plenty of brilliant people in history have suffered at the hands of substance abuse. It doesn’t make them less brilliant.

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Comments

5. Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them

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Title	FINESSED.
Author	zakariya_sharf
Upvotes	4080
Comments	962
Date	March 6, 2021 12:52 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/lz0zgk/finessed/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/finessed.1191437 https://theredarchive.com/post/1191437