Barnes and Noble tell a 73-year-old patron that men can't be by themselves in the children's area.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-06-04T15:13:50+00:00

[Barnes & Nobel Customer Service Contact online]

My message:

Your employee's casually bigoted and misandric treatment of Omar Amin, a highly respected professional and grandfather shopping in your store, has convinced me to cease any and all financial support of your outlets via my patronage. Why spend a dime with an organization that is clearly prejudiced against half of the population - men in general - when I can shop online at Amazon, or locally at Half Price Book Store and small, privately owned bookstores?

Reading news reports of the incident, it's obvious that Mr. Amin's sex was THE reason why your employee acted in such a hostile and discriminating manner. It was stated that MEN are not permitted to be alone in the children's area, not ADULTS. Such a policy groundlessly treats all men as potential molesters. It takes a twisted, perverted mind to make such a blatantly sexist and hateful assumption. I'm deeply insulted on behalf of my own grandfather, father and father-in-law, brothers, husband, friends, cousins, and son. Until I see news that you have acted to rectify this serious, damaging lapse in your judgement, you have alienated and lost, as a (formerly regular) customer, a bookworm, and mother of three: two college students and a middle school kid, all avid readers who purchase books for class. We'll get our books somewhere else.

I had to. This one hit home harder than usual, as my father-in-law was alienated from his church over a similar incident. Even after it was obvious that he was innocent, for the rest of his life he was never able to go back there, because some other parishioners continued to treat him with suspicion. He had one of the biggest, softest hearts I've ever encountered, and he was really torn up over what happened (an incident I'm not going to describe in detail, other than to say the allegation was impossible in addition to ridiculous.) Shit like this pisses me off more than I can even describe.

On a side note, I really like Lordx87's idea and strongly encourage others to do the same. I'd offer to participate, but I don't think it would make the point, since I'm female.

SirGal-I-had · 2012-06-04T13:37:02+00:00

So, I'm no longer allowed to buy a book for my three-year-old daughter at Barnes and Noble? That's fine. I'll take my money to their more father-friendly competitors. I feel for this guy though, I'd be raising hell if I were in that situation too.

Collective82 · 2012-06-04T13:47:06+00:00

I'm going to go stand in the Children's section today and look for books for my expected nephew/niece.

flemishknight · 2012-06-04T14:15:42+00:00

Have you guys read some of the comments under that article? There are actually people agreeing with this. What kind of a sick world do we live in?

PierceHarlan · 2012-06-04T14:35:59+00:00

This is an issue that should be of concern to all persons of good will. There should not be any debate about this: men should not be stereptyped as sexual predators, and no place of public accommodation should have a policy that institutionalize such stereotyping.

Gingor · 2012-06-04T14:32:12+00:00

Pro-tip to Barnes and Noble: Dont throw someone out because a random customer complains, just send an employee over there to see if he is a child molester or not.

Btw: Why can't females be child molesters too?

trentshipp · 2012-06-04T13:24:45+00:00

Screw that noise, I'm a teacher. Sometimes I buy books for my class.

2012-06-04T18:48:32+00:00

"We believe we acted appropriately." Fuck. That. Shit. and fuck B&N.

Davethe3rd · 2012-06-04T16:50:11+00:00

This is messed up. I mean, I, for example, am a fan of the Harry Potter series in my early thirties. (What? I can like Harry Potter if I want to, dammit.)

You mean to tell me that I can't go buy Harry Potter books because some sick bastards fancy children? I can't be alone in the kids' section because I'm seen as a threat?

This is bullshit...

i_poop_splinters · 2012-06-04T20:23:24+00:00

It's hard to believe shit like this is real sometimes. I just told my girlfriend "being a man, you always have to be conscious of the fact that people will automatically peg you as a child molester for just being in a certain place at a certain time." She practically didn't believe me. And I don't blame her. It's not logical to assume just because someone's male that they're a certain way.

I have never been in trouble and a clean criminal record, yet I'm always a little nervous walking with my 7 yr old daughter in public like someone might assume I'm abducting her or something. I hate society sometimes...

Wiebelhaus · 2012-06-04T16:56:05+00:00

That's because we are all rapists and pedophiles.

adenbley · 2012-06-04T14:36:20+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2012-06-04T18:35:28+00:00

That's like saying black people can't be left alone in stores because they can't be trusted.

BranderChatfield · 2012-06-04T18:43:45+00:00

As a gay male, I get the same weird vibe all the time from society whenever I am around kids. So, therefore, I stay clear of all kinds of kids of all ages unless their parent(s) and/or guardian(s) is/are present and accepting. Or it might be just one of my social maladies being paranoid of what lots of straight folk think of us gay men...

red321red321 · 2012-06-04T14:14:44+00:00

amazon's cool when i buy books there they always let me be by myself and i always am. no problems. my kids can even be near me too when i'm shopping.

Mymyilikepie · 2012-06-04T18:53:02+00:00

"Black people alone cannot be by themselves in the store area," Amin said he was told, adding that Voris said other bookstores had encountered problems with blacks stealing books.

Oh, NOW it's discriminating

Koocnahtanoj · 2012-06-04T20:12:03+00:00

"Men alone cannot be by themselves in the children's area," Amin said he was told, adding that Voris said other bookstores had encountered problems with child molesters

So child molesters are raping children in bookstores now? I don't understand his reasoning.

BranderChatfield · 2012-06-04T14:56:15+00:00

That's it. Another point lost for trust in American humanity.

SarenAtrius · 2012-06-04T15:33:21+00:00

Oh man I would've FLIPPED OUT if this happened to me.

My-Work-Reddit · 2012-06-04T16:38:34+00:00

Yeah, this makes perfect sense. Because, as you all know, as men, all we want to do is fuck everything on two legs. We need rules like this to protect civilized (i.e., female) society from our disgusting urges. I, for one, welcome these new, more restrictive rules and laws.

</sarcasm>

RedHyphen · 2012-06-04T19:24:03+00:00

Major props to that guy though for not letting B&N try and push it away and let it be ignored.

AXP878 · 2012-06-04T16:27:27+00:00

Looks like I'm no longer shopping at Barnes and Noble. They'll be out of business soon anyway.

Irrel_M · 2012-06-04T16:59:33+00:00

Next headline: Barnes and Noble screwed over by the patriarchy as more men switch to e-books!

NewAlt · 2012-06-04T20:33:54+00:00

Where is the best place to send a complaint letter?

I was going to go to B&N to buy books for my niece. Unlike books for myself I find it's better to buy children's books where you can see them since they are so visual.

Now that I know men are not welcome at B&N I feel I should inform them that I am not going to be shopping there because I am not welcome.

Mustang__sally · 2012-06-04T13:29:47+00:00

Just sickening! What ever happened to the right to face your accuser?

2012-06-04T18:13:25+00:00

At my university's book store, I was shopping for a hoodie for my 2 y/o nephew. I was the only person there. I felt really strange and like I was about to get weird looks. So I stepped away, examined the clothing from afar, then swooped in to pick what I wanted off the rack and head to the cashier. Fuck this, man.

ScumEater · 2012-06-04T18:13:54+00:00

Children in B&N, I'm reasonably sure, have to be accompanied by an adult. So, even if the place were literally gushing with child molesters there's no reason to fear as a caregiver is always with their child. And if there is a child molester on the premises, isn't that really a concern for the CM and law enforcement not B&N?

I'm all for keeping creepy at bay when it comes to little kids and all, but I'll buy my kids books wherever and whenever I damn well please or we're going to have a stern conversation about it.

mxalo · 2012-06-04T19:22:47+00:00

I'm starting to think it was initiated by a complaint (made aware of man's presence), but escalated because of racism (single foreign male on cell phone where he doesn't "belong"). So to get him out (fear) they made up some crap about men in the kid's section (diversion). Racists and xenophobes can work for corporations too, and AZ isn't exactly immigrant-friendly. Heck, coulda made up the complaint, too, if the manager-on-duty is a prick racist. Not to say this isn't a gender issue because that's exactly what it is now, and it highlights a common trend of thinking about men that needs to be changed. But, I think there is more to this than what this article provides us and we should withhold condemnation of B&N as this could be an isolated incident to the one store. I was surprised that B&N would do something like this, and i'm sure i'm not the only one. I would like to know what the employees have to say about the incident before i withhold my patronage permanently.

Mellowde · 2012-06-04T20:26:30+00:00

Per a customer service director in a previous ama, we should be discussing this on their Facebook wall.

altmehere · 2012-06-04T21:03:29+00:00

Men aren't allowed in the children's area by themselves? Seems fair to gay couples as well, where there is no wife to supervise.

McFeely_Smackup · 2012-06-04T23:55:00+00:00

Amazon doesn't even care if I'm wearing pants.

which I am not.

occupythekitchen · 2012-06-04T17:21:49+00:00

If single moms want to treat every men as a pedophile then we need to be more like Europeans and ban kids from everyday activities such as bookstores, libraries, parks, restaurants, everywhere where they can become victims. If honest men are going to be in the whims of hormonal women that can't think straight and talk out of their asses without punishment then I really don't see another alternative than keeping kids locked inside homes....

alecbenzer · 2012-06-04T16:49:34+00:00

Devil's advocate: I don't know what this guy looked like when he was in the store, but if I saw a person wearing certain kinds of clothes, sitting on the ground at a bookstore and talking on the phone, depending on how they were talking, I might be slightly off put by them as a crazy/homeless person type, regardless of their gender.

Not that that's much of a good reason to kick them out of the store, but I can imagine a clerk making that decision, and it not having much to do with gender issues/discrimination. I don't know the whole story though -- the article was a bit foggy on some of the details. Is there any real evidence that the store insinuated that he might be a potential sex offender just because he was a man?

Man_Raptor · 2012-06-04T23:03:02+00:00

I bet it was Jeff Bezos. Resume lynching.

ArmyGuy543 · 2012-06-05T00:47:31+00:00

[permanently deleted]

MRAToronto · 2012-06-05T18:10:18+00:00

Misandry runs rampant.

dannoffs1 · 2012-06-12T22:21:12+00:00

Damn it, why is the crazy shit always in Arizona? I need to get out of here, stat.

TheChosenOne013 · 2012-06-04T17:13:11+00:00

Well this is disturbing. My fiancé is a preschool teacher, and we frequently break up in a bookstore to look for books she might want for her class. Also, I have a 4 year old son. There are too many reasons for men to be alone in a children's section.

greenwizard88 · 2012-06-04T15:18:26+00:00

I used to work at Barnes and Noble, perhaps I can shed some light on the issue.

1) It takes a lot of effort to throw someone out of a store, including a call to the district manager. This wasn't someone's grudge against a person, this was a thought out move by the store managers.

2) Let me reiterate. We've had people bring in tubs of ice cream, get it all over stuff, and they weren't kicked out (just asked not to bring ice cream into the store anymore).

3) The people that hang out in the kids section are (usually) quite easy to stereotype. There's parents that let their kids run amok pulling books off shelves, parents who change dirty diapers, there's older kids that go back there to do homework. Adults wander back there to talk on their phone if it happens to be empty. This happens all of the time, and it's not (really) a problem, and no one's kicked out - but if you change a dirty diaper, we will gossip about it.

The article says:

But it is unclear whether the other patron reported suspicious behavior by the doctor, he said, noting that the preliminary reports on the dispute are one-sided.

Given the reluctance I've seen for the company to kick someone out of the store, there had to have been a very good reason.

If women without children are allowed to shop in the children's section "then we arguably have gender discrimination," he said.

That is true. But this was a one-of, not something which happened due to policy. Before we start a witch hunt against Barnes & Noble, I'd suggest at least understanding what's involved. Before we collectively get our panties in a bunch, can anyone say for sure that he isn't a child molester, or (at the very least) wasn't staring at a young child awkwardly.

If, as the article states, another bookstore in the area was having " problems with child molesters", can you really blame Barnes & Noble for being cautious?

EDIT: I missed the gem of a quote "Men alone cannot be by themselves in the children's area," which as of 2 years ago, was not a corporate policy, nor a policy in the south-east PA area.

2012-06-04T23:15:26+00:00

If he was 25 it would have been okay? 35?

Cid420 · 2012-06-05T00:16:44+00:00

I'm surprised no one has posted it yet, but they do have a facebook page too if you want to try and start some dialogs and/or make other customers aware of of their blatantly sexist policies. https://www.facebook.com/barnesandnoble

kragshot · 2012-06-05T00:18:11+00:00

So...it's time for a email-in campaign to Barnes and Noble, eh?

Who wants to pen the form letter that we're going to use or are we going to send in individual mails?

BigT0406 · 2012-06-05T03:38:16+00:00

Honestly, I prefer Half Price Books. Sure, the books are used but there is such a friendlier attitude there.

danielkuzmin · 2012-07-30T06:42:35+00:00

Oh, so there's a man buying books for his grandson? HOLY SHIT RAPIST HE MUST BE EXPELLED!!!!

2012-09-15T15:06:22+00:00

Also useful to remember that Arizona has a pretty terrible track record of institutional racism, which may actually be the cause of his being kicked out of the store. Now, the fact that "he was a man" was used as an excuse isn't even slightly comforting because it means that's supposed to be a more reasonable cause than racism, which it isn't.

evilseed · 2012-06-04T17:03:49+00:00

mericuh fuck yea

now everybody's gonna flip shit and make up some brilliant laws instead of just fucking using fucking common sense.

levelate · 2012-06-04T23:00:41+00:00

that'll be that male privilege

greenearplugs · 2012-06-04T17:10:47+00:00

Companies should be allowed to discriminate however they want. This is not a men's right issue.

I realize it is against the law to discriminate, i'm just saying it should be ok. It is a private organization. I've never understood the logic on why it is ok for us to have male only organizations (or organizations based on religion, race, etc) and yet big companies can't discriminate. If they want to discriminate, then let them. They eventually will loose out to other competitors who do better because their talent pool/customer base is wider.

bebopsruin · 2012-06-04T18:03:13+00:00

I am a Barnes & Noble Employee, maybe I can actually provide some information about this.

We do not have a policy in place that forbids men from shopping in the children's section. We also do not and can not remove people from the store because of who they are.

The only times we are able to do that is upon complaint from another customer in which the concerns seemed justified to the manager on duty, or if the customer poses a clear threat to safety of the store.

I am a mid-20s male, and I have worked in the children's department of my store many times. I consistently help single male shoppers find things there. I have never asked a single male to leave the children's department, neither have the managers at my store.

Whatever happened here, the store management felt that the guy in question presented some kind of threat to the customer who complained.

TL/DR Title is misleading, Barnes and Noble does not discriminate against anyone for simply shopping.

EDIT: If the Manager on Duty removed him from the store without appropriate reason, then that manager will be disciplined by the next rung up the ladder.

Further EDIT: Employees are not allowed to remove people from the store, only managers are. So if it was a bookseller-level employee, that person will be disciplined as well.

Title	Barnes and Noble tell a 73-year-old patron that men can't be by themselves in the children's area.
Author	tango646
Upvotes	1057
Comments	257
Date	June 4, 2012 12:52 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uk4b1/barnes_and_noble_tell_a_73yearold_patron_that_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/barnes-and-noble-tell-a-73-year-old-patron-that.1020505 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020505

Comments