"Incel Shaming" is just virgin shaming with a new coat of paint

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-23T17:52:50+00:00

It appears quite a few people are not clear on our moderation policy, which forbids using incel as an insult, and by extension forbids demonizing generalizations of incels. We interpret the term literally as involuntary celibate.

We do reject misogyny and blackpill ideology, but do not conflate those with self-identified incels.

Please stay within those lines set out by our founder. Any comments in violation of the rules will be removed.

austin101123 · 2022-03-23T16:57:33+00:00

There is mott and bailey when it comes to defending the usage of incel - using it to make fun of all involuntarily celibate, but defending of it saying you only use it for the worst incels.

vhisic · 2022-03-23T20:37:11+00:00

Shame guys for not having enough sex, then ask "why are men so obsessed with sex"

LakiL_ · 2022-03-23T22:42:36+00:00

It's the perfect excuse to go back to bullying nerds. And the perfect excuse to not fix school environments and societal norms. Instead of preventing school shooters from being born, now people are like "welp, see that? that's an incel taking out his frustrations with a gun. what a loser"

knightfluttershy · 2022-03-23T14:01:15+00:00

Also, Liana K is an example of why the feminist movement fundamentally confuses me. Because there are example of people who call themselves feminists who I agree with on 95% of issues, but then there are also people who call themselves feminists who I agree with on around 0% of issues. If the term “feminist” can apply to such a vast, contradictory array of people, then I don’t understand what the point of the word is at all.

BloomingBrains · 2022-03-23T18:38:45+00:00

I may need to check out this Liana K person. Its such a breath of fresh air to hear a public figure say this, especially one that calls themselves a feminist. Its really an example of how feminism is a huge mixed bag and not universally good or bad.

At the risk of souring such a positive post, I do wonder if saying "don't shame incels" is enough. Ok great, society might stop shaming them (still a big if at this point), but even so, would that mean people actually start to look into the causes of it and sympathize with them?

I probably qualify as incel under the literal definition. But I don't feel any particular shame aside from a vague sense that others judge me for it, even if I don't judge myself. Sure, removing the stigma would help a great deal, but at the end of the day, the stigma is not why I'm unhappy with my life.

I guess what I'm saying is that I fear this kind of attitude could lead to people saying "lets remove the shame, then incels definitely won't want to be with women anymore and they will finally shut up about it." Because that's not how it works. We're still going to want to be with women. The shame is just a small part of it.

Valoxity-_- · 2022-03-23T22:39:24+00:00

Man the people on this subreddit are so rational, and non hostile its great.

Transhumanistgamer · 2022-03-24T04:24:06+00:00

Love and sex are some of the quintessential human experiences. If you ask anyone who have access to those things if they'd forgo it for the rest of their life, and for absolutely nothing, they'd call you crazy.

And yet if someone who does not have access to them due to features beyond their control, people will demonize them for complaining. It's no different than how conservatives treat poor people fundamentally. The mindset that if you're struggling, you deserve your suffering.

Mr-X1 · 2022-03-23T15:46:50+00:00

It's so odd seeing the left adopt "incel" as an insult.

The pseudo left has always loved racism, classism, body-shaming etc so honestly nothing odd about this.

tasfa10 · 2022-03-24T08:17:52+00:00

Not that I think one justifies the other, but at least when you're called a slut you're being shamed for something you chose. The whole involuntary part of incels makes it even worse in the sense that they're being punished for something they didn't chose and, if they could, would chose otherwise. The left has to stop with incel shaming, short men shaming, neckbeard and small dick type of insults. This is helping no one, we're punishing those men for things that don't merit shame and we're offering them as a gift to the right.

Blauwpetje · 2022-03-23T15:44:19+00:00

finally you have said it, i wanted to post this on this subredit for a long time but i never thought it would be taken seriously

RockmanXX · 2022-03-23T16:56:21+00:00

Which creates incentives for men to coerce and force sex on other people.

Makes men do extreme stuff to get sex

I like how in her attempt to be compassionate towards Men, she can't help but frame men as some kind of scary monsters, instead of humans who deserve compassion.

EddgeLord666 · 2022-03-23T16:31:21+00:00

Tbf most of them are not shaming incels for not being able to get laid per se, they're shaming them for not getting laid and complaining about it. Basically they don't care as long as male virgins will shut up about being virgins and be good male allies, ie servants to women.

boomboxspence · 2022-03-23T17:54:59+00:00

Using it as an insult literally creates more incels

Jonathanese · 2022-03-24T07:15:36+00:00

This issue is pretty personal for me, having gone through a lot of similar issues myself. I'm not sure how much "advice" I can offer, beyond information and my own take.

I think part of the issue is the term "incel" itself.

Like, am I "celibate"? Yes. A virgin even. At 30. Hitting 30 was freaky for this specific reason.

Is this "voluntary"? I mean I won't want to be. Like, I don't prefer it. So I suppose it's involuntary.

But I'd say a lot of it came down to personal choices. If I really wanted to lose it, I had several opportunities to do so in college. Probably with about as many men as women. Had considered it with men to see if it was one of those things you don't know if you like it until you try it.

With MOD permission, though, I would like to discuss "incel" in its current usage. I'll tag u/a-man-from-earth out of his concern, in case he wants me to edit this.

A lot of what people refer to when they complain about "incels" or use it as a perjorative doesn't come from the literal translation. It's similar to "nice guys". Nobody dislikes someone because they are nice. The quotes are implied in the complaint, to refer to a specific mentality. So take that as a consolation at least. See "The man who spit in the Buddha's face".

I have yet to have anyone who actually matters to me view me as less for not being sexually active. If anything some girls have had a sort of positive curiosity, and viewed me as more "pure" in this regard, feeling a bit safer around me.

So the perjorative stems more from the redpill culture that was common on the incel reddit thread. There is a lot to criticize there, but I still consider even redpill to be a symptom of a social blind spot. Given current culture, men's responses to social issues tend to be expressed in less-than-soft ways, so it's easy to criticize and call it "analysis" than it is to actually analyze and address.

Simply put, people these days are lonely. These past couple generations are especially sexually lonely. Women are feeling it, too. But women's insecurities are addressed with more concern for the aforementioned reasons. But when we see women struggling in this area, we call it loneliness. When men struggle in this area, we call it entitlement. Not to dismiss entitlement as an issue I see in both gender in different ways.

Personally, I don't blame much of redpill on the guys who got swept up into it. I know I was certainly a redpiller in college after some false allegations thrown my way, and felt I didn't have much to turn to.

And that is the point, in all of this: I didn't feel I had much to turn to. Feeling lonely is normal. Feeling sexually frustrated is normal. Guys need this to be acknowledged. The issue is in who is listening and who does try to act as a mentor. Like a dictator filling a political vacuum.

Having gone through this before "incel" was a term, I was able to see some of its origins. It started a lot with PUA books and "Game" books, which would essentially portray you as glitched out and in need of correction, then hit you with things like the "alpha male" narrative and would sort of guide how you're supposed to act. Some guys took this on and became "PUAs" themselves. In some cases amounting to sexually harassing 10 women, finding 1 who is into it, and reporting their success, negating the 9 women who now have yet another example of a toxic man.

Other guys didn't like that they were being asked to change, or that the cold-open techniques emphasized in these books felt wrong. Since the narrative was hard to reject, many such guys turned it more into bitterness with the world. That is to say, many of the guys went down this path because they didn't want to do the pushy or outright sexist things outlined in these books. I say this having been exactly one of these guys.

But in essence, these books instilled a lot of what you might call "false fears". Not because the fear is "false", but because it makes men feel more judged than they probably actually are. Specifically, like they are being judged for good traits and praised for bad ones. It preys on insecurities and turns them into fears that might not be necessary, or not necessarily as strong. That's what I hope to dissuade when I talk about gender issues, and why I tried to give some positive examples above.

I'm really not fond of people using "nice guy" and "incel" as perjoratives, nor "bad boy" as a compliment, as it confuses the whole discussion. It makes it seem like the literal translations are being insulted, rather than their tongue-in-cheek counterparts. So I try to do my part by asking interrogating for that person's more specific definition. That way the clarification is visible to onlookers.

But yeah, the problem DOES need to be addressed. I get sick of the "just lock them up" attitude towards issues like this. It just reinforces the idea that men can't need help.

And help, I think, would come from addressing the insecurities as legitimate, offering good counter-narratives to red-pill narratives. My go-to is talking about bonobos and hunter-gatherers as a counter to the chimp-like philosophy of "alpha" and "beta". ("beta" as an insult is hilarious if you know chimp politics. Beta is basically the best position as a male chimp.) Bonobos are equally related to us, yet there aren't many male sexual "have nots" and little male hierarchy to speak of. And hunter-gatherers are known for actively resisting what we might call "alphas".

I could go on to more potential resolutions, but my post is long enough. I'll elaborate in replies.

Tedfordshire · 2022-03-23T18:59:03+00:00

On a similar note, notice how slut shaming is now exclusively aimed at men. Women (well, young women) are encouraged to have their "hoe phase" or have sex with whoever they want. Now this is fantastic, but men who do the same are considered dirty, sleazy, or as having low standards.

"Player" and "stud" are no longer positive descriptors for men.

Korvar · 2022-03-23T14:26:24+00:00

Incel / Virgin shaming is also promoting rape culture, as if we shame men for not having sex, presumably the only way they can avoid shaming is to have sex, no matter what?

Edit: Apparently I was unclear: some people think I am claiming virgins/incels are the ones raping. I'm pointing out that the act of virgin shaming promotes the idea that men should logically have sex by whatever means. In other words their use of virgin shaming would promote rape culture.

This has nothing to do with who is actually doing anything.

MilanGuy · 2022-03-24T13:34:29+00:00

Great post, thanks for sharing. Finally some real left-wing male advocacy in this group

Motanul_Negru · 2022-04-09T11:29:47+00:00

Thanks for the epic line, my dude! 💪

Dry-Pianist1853 · 2022-04-08T00:24:55+00:00

Eh, thats a big reason men inflate their bodycounts. Toxic men/women will see you as a "real man"

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-23T15:01:09+00:00

I am fine with shaming actual ideologically misogynistic incels, I just hate how many sexists use it for a catch all insult when someone says something they disagree with. Ironically I have even been called an Incel for arguing for bodily autonomy

WesterosiAssassin · 2022-03-23T16:29:49+00:00

I don't have a problem with making fun of actual incels, but the term definitely gets thrown around way too lightly. Just the other day I unsubbed from r/inceltears after there was a heavily upvoted post dragging this guy who simply made a comment about how he'd seemingly 'done everything right' (in good shape, had a good job, etc.) and yet was still a virgin, with no implications of misogyny or incel ideology, and everyone was assuming the worst.

MainstreamAcceptance · 2022-04-17T21:55:54+00:00

Imo incel now is used more to define mysogynists than actual involountary celibates, so most using It as an insult do not mean It as an insult towards virgins

Shadow_Bannedit · 2022-03-23T15:23:41+00:00

While "involuntary celibate" would mean people who can't get laid, "incel" is more about people who can't get laid, and blame everyone but themselves. If you can't be attractive, you should at least be interesting. Some do use it as a blanket term for anyone they don't care for but that's what the world does to buzzwords.

Chinshu396 · 2022-03-23T15:17:09+00:00

I mean insulting men for being virgins is immature. But I don’t think using incel in a derogatory way is equivocal of mocking a male who happens to be a virgin. Incels are dysfunctional, dangerous, and sadly on the rise.

Title	"Incel Shaming" is just virgin shaming with a new coat of paint
Author	knightfluttershy
Upvotes	358
Comments	100
Date	March 23, 2022 1:47 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tkualw/incel_shaming_is_just_virgin_shaming_with_a_new/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/incel-shaming-is-just-virgin-shaming-with-a-new.1107936 https://theredarchive.com/post/1107936

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