Please be carefull. Subs general direction

Diligent_Divide_4978 · 2023-12-30T08:32:39+00:00

The problem for me is not the direction of this sub but the double standards that men are subjected to here on reddit (where the official jannys have admitted that "hate speech" does not apply to men because men aren't "oppressed.")

Go to FDS or TwoX, and you'll see terms like "moid" or "scrote" used over and over again, along with shit like "all nem should just rot underground."

Imagine the outcry if we repeatedly used "f0!d" or "inkwell factory" and said shit like "w0m3n belong in the kitchen."

Our sub would be banned in minutes.

Again, this sub is pretty tame compared to what's out there. It's the double standards I don't like.

da_trealest · 2023-12-30T06:28:34+00:00

I think it’s radicalized here because a lot of the other crazier subs have been banned

Angryasfk · 2023-12-30T11:28:57+00:00

You’ve contradicted yourself in saying that “patriarchy exists” but it’s lead by the wealthy who happen to be mostly men. The point of patriarchy claims is that it’s run by men, for men, at the expense of women. The point of this is to exchange economic class and gender and claim that privilege is primarily based on gender, not economic class. In feminist formulation the daughter of the merchant banker is a “victim” and the son of the street sweeper is “privileged”.

PedanticGoon · 2023-12-30T06:10:40+00:00

I think there’s been a resurgence in the last few years of candid thought. Might have to do with the pandemic forcing us all online where opinions can be shared much freer, but there’s been a huge jump in people saying things as they are, or as they think they are.

Women definitely lead the charge on this with their thoughts on men, believing all men are this or that: - useless, - weak, - “icky”, - incompetent, - dumb, - terrible parents, - sex-crazed, - abusive, - terrifying, - unwelcome, - deserving to die, - expendable, - un-human.

Then this bleed into culture and resulted in the indoctrination that is throughout HR, schools, media, and government trying to back this while telling us girls are pretty, perfect, strong, and powerful!

So people here got fed up with that and decided to be honest about gender, and really explore things, rather than take what had been shoved down their throats.

Starting to argue : - body count often does matter - men and women have different preferences - men and women think and act differently - there’s nothing wrong with having preferences in the women you date (and the ones most men have are perfectly reasonable) - men don’t need to spend their whole life putting women on pedestals - women aren’t largely innocent and incapable of doing wrong - women should be held accountable for their actions - women shouldn’t get written-in special privileges and out-right preferencial treatment

So between these two sets of well documented beliefs, you tell me which is more extreme

TheDwiin · 2023-12-30T13:15:50+00:00

I find it funny you harp up on the body count thing like it's a unique thing that men care about. It's not.

https://datepsychology.com/body-count-and-sexual-double-standards/

While men do care about body count more than women do, women do care about it, though it's a minority thing on both men and women's side. On a Likert scale of 7 where 1 is low importance and 7 is high importance, with 4 being the middle, men rated 3.61 and women rated 2.98 on average on how important their partners previous body count is.

However, there is something funnier going on.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bisexual-men-dating-women-stigma-lgbt-b2200069.html

63% of women would refuse to date a man who has slept with another man, and only 19% of women would date an openly bisexual man. Now this article I shared focuses on that, but I'll also post the Glamour article of their study that shows this, as it was more of a survey on sexuality in general and not dating.

https://www.glamour.com/story/glamour-sexuality-survey

I think Dr. Savin-Williams says it best: "This suggests that these women hold on to the view that while women occupy a wide spectrum of sexuality, men are either gay or straight."

What's even funnier though is that some lesbians tend to steer clear of bisexual women because they are insecure about men their partner is attracted to.

They call this the "androcentric desire hypothesis" which is essentially the fallacious belief that bisexuals of both sides of the gender binary are attracted to men more than women.

https://www.them.us/story/study-explains-lesbian-bias-against-bisexual-women

This is the article I found explaining it.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-27206-003

This is the paywall study the article refers to.

So in short, it appears that body count does matter to women, but being more specific, the body count of men their potential partners have been with.

Itsdickyv · 2023-12-30T13:44:30+00:00

Ok, so let’s look at actions. From what I’ve seen round here, users are pretty quick to call out anything too extreme, for one. For two, you can report any posts you see as unsavoury. For three, putting a post up expressing your personal concerns won’t change what anyone chooses to post round here. Fourthly, if you want to influence the content here, why not apply to be a moderator?

I don’t see the issue you highlight in effect here. I am noticing a rise in posts about personal experience over general principles, but that’s just social media.

Finally, your point “where scientific facts are actively denied” doesn’t hold muster in light of your own comments on the DSM-V; no effort of countering with fact, merely a statement that you “trust the rest of the world more than the USA”. It’s not a good look to be that openly hypocritical when lecturing anyone else on their conduct…

In conclusion; you have many options when dealing with content you find distasteful - you could engage in debate, you could choose to ignore it, you could report to the mods. All of which, in my opinion, would have been better choices than this post. It’s not your circus, not your monkeys - let the mods mod.

GuysItsGalxy · 2023-12-30T07:17:38+00:00

I will disagree with your analogy that high body count meaning mental disorders and some men raping = men bad. They aren't nearly the same and the former actually has evidence to back it up. If we cant speak fact when facts are presented you're perpetuating the problem

WarHawk1902 · 2023-12-30T06:32:05+00:00

If you really think body count does not matter, go date a woman of a body count of 50+ and see how it goes.

Exciting_Bluebird_53 · 2023-12-30T07:21:11+00:00

If you really believe all this and you think this sub is going on a radical direction, I recommend unsubbing. Personally I think this sub is ok, and allows a decent place to discuss men's issues. Now there is the occasional jerk in the comments, but I've found they are few and far between.

PUMA-420 · 2023-12-30T06:51:37+00:00

But the body count comment is true.

Slow_Bat_6696 · 2023-12-30T14:34:47+00:00

Because thats what happens when freedom of speech isn't respected people will get more radical censorship doesn't work it does exactly the opposite

No_String_533 · 2023-12-30T12:56:49+00:00

When one gender has been put on a pedestal and favored, giving a realistic view of them is seen as "hate." The favored status can be seen on Reddit where all the men's groups except this one have been banned while there's a million feminist subs that never get banned.

WareGaKaminari · 2023-12-30T11:30:30+00:00

Oh, shut up

Scarce12 · 2023-12-30T09:03:43+00:00

women are reduced to their body count

But women aren't being reduced to their bodycount, the genuine concern is, are such people telling the truth when they say they want monogamy because it's more than likely they will experience troubles maintaining a relationship and the research backs this up.

Cheap_Camera2412 · 2023-12-30T11:54:44+00:00

Hey OP, when you care too much about being seen as a sexist remember the other side says “kill all men” stop being a worried cuck

GuysItsGalxy · 2023-12-30T07:16:04+00:00

I agree with a lot of the reasons as to why the subs going down this path that have been mentioned in the comments thus far, but I whole heartedly believe it's simply because women as a whole are getting worse in the treatment of men. As such this causes a general distaste or hell even misogynistic view which isn't entirely unjustified, I agree it won't help the divide we see but if they aren't even willing to listen to us a majority of the time and when they do the rest just shut them down... How are WE supposed to change the previously mentioned increasingly negative view of women? This does sound negative and I promise I'm trying to be as optimistic as possible here but there's only so much you can do when the other party simply doesn't acknowledge the issues or talking points of the other.

To propose a possible solution I would say to demolish the "cancel culture" for one as it's gotten way out of hand and helps nothing, but as a whole get rid of the thought process that if you don't agree with me then you're automatically evil or the enemy or whatever negative connotation they would like to attach.

We've seen an alarming increase of "preventative" bans and if you don't know or aren't sure what that means, it simply means a mod searched through your history and found a sub or comment you've joined, made, upvoted, etc. and determines by that alone that you should be banned before you cause an issue. This is happening majorly to the male community who doesn't conform to the far left ideology which continues the again previously mentioned issue of not being able to converse with other views.

All in all yes limiting the more hate/pessimistic content will help but it won't solve the issue by a long shot

Ziogatto · 2023-12-30T16:36:45+00:00

"yeah high body count is alligned with certainpersonal disorders so lower body count is better" Is neither factually correct nor helps,

Except, it is both factually correct and it does help men immensely:

Numerous individual characteristics have been associated with infidelity, including personality variables such as neuroticism, prior history of infidelity, number of sex partners before marriage, psychological distress, and an insecure attachment orientation [4,27,28,29].

- https://doi.org/10.1016/j.copsyc.2016.03.008

Let me help you with the difference between this statement and "men rape more so they are more brutal"

The difference is that the first statement is that one statement is saying "Women that do this are more likely to do that than women that do not". Meanwhile the second statement is basically "ALL MEN ARE POTENTIAL RAPISTS, THEREFORE MEN ARE BAD". The first statement wasn't "ALL WOMEN ARE WHORES" or was it? Here's a more fair comparison: "Men that shout often, loose their temper easily and are quick to resort to violence are more likely to commit domestic violence".

Now, would that statement be factual? Yes. Men that quickly resort to violence would be more likely to perform violence on their spouses as well.

Is that statement helpful? Yes. If a woman wants to lower her chances of being a victim of domestic violence she should be on the lookout for such behaviour.

Would you argue such a statement is wrong and not helpful? Yes, because you're a feminist.

denisc9918 · 2023-12-30T05:50:56+00:00

Your post is so full of inaccuracies I could not be bothered, so here's my overall.

So lurking for 2yrs eh, and now you feel the urge to step in to chastise us, maybe be our saviour. You probably should have stepped in 12 or even 18mths ago and arrested the rot before it got hold instead of watching us slide into the abyss.

If you're keeping score you can put down on the "FO idiot" side.

Embarrassed_Curve769 · 2023-12-30T07:25:35+00:00

"yeah high body count is alligned with certainpersonal disorders so lower body count is better"

High body count indicates bad life choices much like red puffy face suggests drunkenness. It's not 100% accurate, but it's close enough to take notice.

"men rape more so they are more brutal"

Men are more aggressive and do rape more often. There is nothing controversial about it.

TwoXIsAHateSubYo · 2023-12-30T21:22:26+00:00

"Patriarchy exists."

No it doesn't. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone agreeing with that here.

cum_dragon · 2023-12-30T10:19:20+00:00

Getta load of this soyboy

DecrepitAbacus · 2023-12-30T07:08:36+00:00

You don't belong here. Try MensLib.

Lucky-Slice399 · 2023-12-30T18:46:49+00:00

Posts where scientific facts are actively denied

What scientific facts?

thunder89 · 2023-12-31T01:17:17+00:00

Lol wut? Boo this man!

63daddy · 2023-12-30T17:07:05+00:00

The men’s lib sub doesn’t allow and factual statements about how feminism has limited men’s rights and that’s one reason it’s a worthless sub in my opinion. One can’t make progress if one can’t freely discuss the problems and causes of the problems men face.

Most of the laws that discriminate against men are a direct result of feminist lobbying efforts. It’s the fact most people don’t realize this that’s the major problem in my opinion. Consider for example if most parents knew we passed legislation that’s largely responsible for boys falling behind in education. This wouldn’t be just a men’s rights issue, parents would be demanding change.

The problem is too much censorship of facts and too much disinformation. The last thing we need is more censorship.

2023-12-30T15:35:49+00:00

There are multiple posts here which encourage the entire demonisation of people suffering with various mental illnesses and personality disorders. Basically, some men here had awful experiences with abusive women who had mental illnesses and therefor, their logic is that all people with the same mental illness must also be avoided, generalised, demonised and labelled as evil, horrible and even as demons (yes, this was actually said).

How gross and cruel it is as well as hypocritical to say that all people are the same due to one bad experience with one. It's the equivalent of a woman saying "Oh, most serial killers and rapists are men so they must all be the same. Avoid all men, they're abusive misogynysts" or "I have one bad experience with a man - he sucked my soul dry and ruined my life. Let all men rot!"

People with mental illnesses and disorders do not deserve to be demonised or generalised, especially when so many of them had to be on the receiving end of severe trauma before developing one (severe trauma that the majority of humans have never had to experience).

It's cruel, unethical, unkind and downright harmful but as a mod here told me: "There is no rule here that doesn't permit unkindness. I completely understand if you don't want to be associated or take part in this sub. Please find another place where you can support men and mens rights"

as well as another mod, who had one bad experience with a person who is mentally ill, therefore justified men demonising all people with mental illness and disorders and said "I would encourage any man to run. It's not worth the risk".

Most men here are kind, loving and just want the same privileges women have. But a very select few are incredibly cruel, have warped ideals and agendas. But it's the same with any sub or forum in the world - go into a feminists sub and you will witness toxicity and hatred like no other you have ever seen.

"Dead men can't rape" - people who not metaphorically, but literally, want all men dead or six feet under.

sumfacilispuella · 2023-12-30T20:47:30+00:00

yeah this became apparent to me about 3 or 4 years ago and i started seeing posts about it a couple of years ago. the comments will just be filled with guys denying that its slowly devolving into a women hating sub. denying the fucking crazy comments some guys are making about women instead of offering any push back. honestly dont think theres much to be done but to watch it happen.

Ifthatswhatyourinto · 2023-12-30T21:58:24+00:00

Definitely noticed that and as always taking any info with a grain of salt. Just like the other end of the spectrum, we too are vulnerable to the same kind of groupthink that evolves in echo chambers.

My algo on tiktok has veered to redpill before and I see the same shit parroted here sometimes. It’s important to form your own opinions over time and the goal shouldn’t be hating women, we should work towards living harmoniously.

BobbyMcFrayson · 2023-12-30T22:21:30+00:00

Believe it or not, compared to ten years ago its far, far better. I haven't been paying attention so strictly in the last two or three years, so I couldn't speak to that. Sounds like you've noticed something really important and the way you put it is really important, which I appreciate greatly.

elitelocalpro · 2023-12-31T14:28:18+00:00

Go be a white knight somewhere else.

Patriarchy is fake and body count definitely matters and is indicative of personality and decision making

Due-Struggle-9492 · 2023-12-30T07:29:18+00:00

Part of the problem is that 1st wave feminism looks nothing like modern day feminism. It’s no longer about equality, but superiority. Fortunately or unfortunately, men have often been determined to be the provider and head of all things and for much of history have unfairly been expected to carry the whole of relationships and responsibilities and it’s all just a mess now. We do a great job at talking at each other, but doing horribly at talking with each other. I can only speak as an observer and from what I have experienced, but I also know that there are women who support and care about the men in their lives, it’s just some women have gone insane and taken things to an unnecessary extreme. There’s so many dynamics to it all, so it’s really hard to suggest blanket answers since every situation is unique.

Mountain_Judgment888 · 2023-12-30T14:27:06+00:00

I am a woman lurking here. Don't like radical feminism, don't like bashing men to somehow empower women. Every so often I see an insightful post here and this somehow helps me too. Most of the time the posts are quite radical, but I want to be aware of the narratives. Thank you for posting your caution. Agree, not all of us women are crazy parasites.

dope_star · 2023-12-30T15:20:02+00:00

It's already happened. Every time I've pointed out that a post has nothing to do with men's rights and is just women bashing, or "woe is me" complaining I get down voted into oblivion.

creamer143 · 2023-12-30T22:19:37+00:00

I think this sub does have a lot of MGTOWs who, instead of dealing with their own personal issues, just wanna blame women and the institution of marriage while taking zero personal responsibility. It's not helpful, and it's no different than a woman complaining that men suck when she has a bunch of issues too.

And about the women body count thing, it HAS been studied that the more pre-marital sexual partners a woman has, the less likely it is for her to be in a stable marriage (source). Like, past three or four, it's a staircase straight to hell.

BlackMesaIncident · 2023-12-30T18:00:53+00:00

You've been in thus sub for two years. You've probably been consciously in men's rights for up to three years. I've been for almost fifteen. You don't understand how this works. I'll go toe to toe with you on all the details and embarrass you if you want. But the point is, you've hit your limit of what you can handle and you're back to being a feminist. We welcome you to exit. We will continue making our progress.

I give everyone here permission to ignore OP.

Mycroft033 · 2023-12-31T00:36:26+00:00

If you see genuinely sexist posts or comments, please report them like the rest of us

Huffers1010 · 2023-12-30T10:03:23+00:00

I don't necessarily agree with a lot of OP's claims here - I don't see a greater-than-usual number of posts talking about how people dress, for instance - but I have always been concerned that some of the more radical elements we see here are not good for anyone, us included. That's particularly the case when a decent number of posts seem to be about people's recent relationship problems, and even when it's not, I question whether some of the stuff that gets posted here is really a men's rights issue in the general case. A lot of it is frustration at the general situation, which I absolutely understand, but really, it doesn't look very good for us to be... for want of a better word... whining about very general things.

This sub has long had a very permissive attitude to what's posted and I think that's great but I think sometimes the topics posted end up being too much about issues that are very personal to individuals, about which we can't really do much, or very general - "I'm tired of the situation," etc.

I'm not unsympathetic and I'm not proposing any of this stuff necessarily be removed but I do think we have bigger fish to fry and I would encourage everyone to think hard before posting.

terrorist_giraffe · 2023-12-30T06:42:43+00:00

I couldn't agree more. I like this sub because it's one of the few places online where misandry is not rampant, but sometimes, especially lately, it seems like anything that isn't pro-male, even peer-reviewed science, is rejected. I got downvoted to heck a while back for saying agreeing with a scientific article suggesting that attractive women get penalized for being attractive. We've all seen women tear hotter women down so that they're no longer a threat! But I still got downvoted for pointing that out, because the overall article supported the 'women are oppressed' narrative and therefore had to be wrong.

Automatic_Survey_307 · 2023-12-30T08:32:43+00:00

Good post - thank you. Important not to go down the victim route or the misogyny route while advocating for men's rights.

hendrixski · 2023-12-30T16:29:29+00:00

patriachy exists but its lead by the wealthy who happen to be mostly men and normal people (the other 99.9%) suffer under it)

So... capitalism?

LiquidDreamtime · 2023-12-30T17:49:15+00:00

Thanks for saying this and I’m happy to see it has positive up votes and some discussion.

I’ve posted here rarely but I have seen the same thing. It’s been slowly drifting right the past 4 yrs or so and gotten away from “let’s discuss issues men face, and how to solve them” and is by-and-large “feminism is evil and they want to subjugate men, we must stop them or else!”.

Both_Relationship_62 · 2023-12-30T18:56:05+00:00

It makes me sad to see sexist generalizations about women in this sub, especially when they are upvoted. Not only because sexism in itself is a bad thing, but also because it contributes to the bad reputation of MRA communities. If we want to be taken seriously, we should be intolerant of sexism and misogyny.

Sexism and misogyny contribute to the gender war and opposition between men and women. That's not what we need. We need cooperation and mutual understanding.

I agree with you, OP.

Streaker4TheDead · 2023-12-30T08:53:20+00:00

I wanted to be MRA but instead of equality I found that most MRAs just say the same shit feminists say with the genders swapped.

2023-12-31T00:29:56+00:00

People have a right to be upset when they realize their lives are simply worth less than another because of a coin flip. That's a tough thing to not have a strong opinion about in my eyes. Lines will be crossed occasionally but a lot of movements start that way.

It definitely needs to be said to infinity though: all humans should absolutely 100% think it through for a while before posting. It can be hard to do, imperfect as we are by nature, but taking some time to use your brain can pay off. Imagine that!

A good message OP, and an important one for sure.

Blank_ngnl · 2023-12-30T17:36:53+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Reasonable-Tea-8160 · 2023-12-30T20:50:50+00:00

"where women are reduced to their body count"

There is a reason for this. It destroys most women's ability to pair bound, also it will always look bad no matter how much society tries to normalize it, plus STDs, Pregnancies, promiscuous and risky behavior, it leads to horrible relationship standards, toxic relationships, codependency, attachment disorders, drug addiction, sex addiction, the list goes on - it's an all-around bad thing outside of getting your rocks off. For both Men and Women and Otherwise.

I personally view high count males the same. Slaves to their desires.

Believe me when I say this, me and others calling out this behavior is ultimately a good thing.

As for 'factually correct' : Here. Since you apparently need proof for the obvious.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3752789/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4139487/

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/more-sexual-partners-more-cancer-2020042819658

https://www.everydayhealth.com/longevity/can-promiscuity-threaten-longevity.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_human_sexual_promiscuity

--------

Also, defense aside. I agree with you. The sub needs to stop the divisive rhetoric.

Johntoreno · 2023-12-31T19:34:13+00:00

I'm noticing an uptick of trolls spamming this sub with posts that echo the same sentiment "This Sub's Tone is too radical for me, we need to police ourselves harder because i saw a post saying bad things about Women, but i can't link them here for... reasons! Let's not become like RadFems!", they talk of MRAs as if we're all on the verge of being rollotate bros. They even pretend to be MRAs and then they'll mention that Patraichy&Male Privilege are real, they'll carefully slip in Feminist beliefs disguised as a pro-MRA post, its clever tactic, DO NOT fall for it!

As a rule of thumb, never accept the Feminist framing of an issue because control over language is control over the narrative. If they say "Patriarchy Exists" disarm them by saying "No, Oligarchy exists and rich women benefit from it too!". If they say "Men suffer from Toxic Masculinity", disarm them by saying "No, Men suffer from Toxic Male Gender Roles like the obligation to protect&provide for women"

Any comment that vilifies Women is downvoted or [Removed], all these claims of "Radicalization" is a lie, this place is an open forum for men to express their grievances. Feminists view ANY kind of male anger as unjustified unless its in service of women. If you say that a woman abusing her husband is a horrible person, these white knights view it as "Wow, look at MRAs, they hate Women so brazenly, this sub has gone to the dogs!". LISTEN here, its normal to show disgust&anger when a human does something evil regardless of the gender, okay?

MRAs are socially center-left, we just want a society that doesn't despise men. Feminists view us as "Far Right" because they're so far left of Dworkin that being a moderate is "Far Right" to them. I don't believe men are privileged or that men created Society to "systemically" harm women. If this makes me a "Radical", i'm fine with it! I'm radical&tubular, why not?

Anyway, happy new year and Godspeed! Don't let the trolls gaslight you into self-doubt!

skllyskullstyle · 2024-01-01T02:58:21+00:00

Can someone explain what the OP has been wanting to say? I could not understand it.

StillPurePowerV · 2024-01-03T15:53:39+00:00

Can you explain how these two quotes are comparable, because to me they aren't.

Title	Please be carefull. Subs general direction
Author	Blank_ngnl
Upvotes	132
Comments	302
Date	December 30, 2023 5:33 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/18u81zw/please_be_carefull_subs_general_direction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/please-be-carefull-subs-general-direction.1241874 https://theredarchive.com/post/1241874

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