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Here you're sitting thinking about Push Pull Theory, Escalation Ladders, Inner Game and Eckhart Tolle. Meanwhile girls will literally fuck guys because they are bored, want weed, are lonely, have nothing better to do.

ohropax

June 19, 2022

455 upvotes

/r/seduction

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Title	Here you're sitting thinking about Push Pull Theory, Escalation Ladders, Inner Game and Eckhart Tolle. Meanwhile girls will literally fuck guys because they are bored, want weed, are lonely, have nothing better to do.
Author	ohropax
Upvotes	455
Comments	162
Date	June 19, 2022 4:15 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/vfym8z/here_youre_sitting_thinking_about_push_pull/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/here-youre-sitting-thinking-about-push-pull-theory.1256655 https://theredarchive.com/post/1256655

Comments

[–]GO_Zark 113 points114 points115 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

I agree to an extent. A lot of the things like the escalation ladder or list of fun places to date are useful as a reference for guys who don't know what the fuck they're doing like "Ok I'm doing this, this is the next step" and having references / guides for the basic skills like "What does a good approach look like", "How do I ditch the basic dude clothes and dress like an adult", "how do I never run out of things to say" is great for newbies.

But most of the routines, the YouTube "gurus" with a 20 hour video program for "every part of the game" that guarantees you pussy and all that other shit are basically useless in practice.

You're right that lots of guys here are making it way, way harder than it needs to be. Seduction and AskSeddit get overrun by frustrated people a lot and your message should be core to our platform: Step 1 - be cool. Step 2 - don't be uncool. Step 3 - take some fucking chances and you'll get more success than you think is possible.

[–]ComprehensivePen71 28 points29 points30 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]GO_Zark 11 points12 points13 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying it's not hard. Shit can be real weird depending on what you start with.

For example, I didn't talk to people I didn't know when I was 19. Like full stop, stranger danger light was always on inside my head. Like I bought tickets to a concert and got to the show and didn't know which room the show was in so I just turned around and went home rather than ask literally any of the staff members for directions. The last almost-20 years have been a lot of work and alternatively really scary and pretty fun but it's absolutely been a journey from "pale scrawny unkempt dude sitting in a dark corner wearing baggy pants and obviously got zero game" to "cool gym bro who knows everyone in the room and has a rotation"

I originally meant like .... guys thinking they've gotta know like minutiae of body language (which way are her feet pointing, did she flip her hair, where's she looking) or understanding microexpressions, or having a great body, perfect hair, and great style before you even start talking to women. And so they get bogged down in analysis paralysis and never actually go do anything other than forum jockey until they feel like they've learned "enough". Several of those YouTube gurus encourage this sort of shit cause they can keep selling you on their bullshit products.

If approach anxiety is your issue it's not an all or nothing approach. I know full well how hard it is to make that first step. Or to recover from any sort of rejection where you go "maybe I'm just not meant to get this" My first step was talking to women who are paid to be nice to me (and who will get in trouble if they're rude to me) - go to clothing stores and ask for help, go to the mall and ask the girls trying to hand out free samples from kiosks what time it is, ask the kiosk guys where they shop for their clothes cause they're usually pretty well dressed for their age. I remember my first time making a stranger smile and it was the girl at the counter of university health services when I was in college. I had to go to the medical center cause appendicitis and she needed my emergency contact details. I don't know what stupid ass shit I said and it was probably lame as all fuck, but man, PROGRESS. She cracked a smile and I just had a "oh, maybe I can do this sometimes" moment.

You don't have to take big steps to see progress, you just have to take a couple small manageable steps that make you uncomfortable but not so uncomfortable that you panic. And you have to determine what those uncomfortable actions / discomfort vs panic levels are for you, personally, then just do one or two a week regularly.

And you know what? I still get the anxiety sometimes. Heart goes crazy, mind blanks and I can't fucking think, but you know what? I developed a system that works for me so when I get nervous around a girl or can't think of something to say, I can always fall back on "damn, another brain cell just jumped out the window. I had something to say then I lost it, I'm... nice to meet you". I've talked to enough people and been anxious and afraid about it often enough that I know how to work around it.

[–]trousle 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]GO_Zark 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ComprehensivePen71 -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]GO_Zark 11 points12 points13 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Looks are basically a handicap - if you look good, you start out ahead of other people so you have to do less work to get the same result. Style is the same way. So is smelling good or having money or whatever.

Personality does all the heavy lifting though. If you're boring as fuck but hot and/or rich, you'll get pussy but the women won't respect you. Not only have I seen this personally but I've actually talked to the women in my life about it - like "yeah if he's got a boat I might fuck him but most of those guys are dull as fuck and all they've got going for them is the boat"

Versus this dude Jay I used to hang out with when I was deeper into events work than I am now. 5'2" scrawny ass dude, looks a bit like a human version of the scream mask. Legit couldn't lift up his own DJ speakers without help, but the man gave zero fucks about it. When he decided he wanted something, he went for it. Talk to that girl? I got it. DJ at nightclubs? No problem. Open for his favorite DJ? Bro I got this no problem - 3 days later they replaced the billed opener with Jay DJing for like 30 minutes, basically because he wanted it more than the other guy and he talked to the promoter until the promoter offered him the spot. I've seen a lot of shit working events but that one was one of the wildest.

Self belief and that "you can't fuck with me, I'm in control and I got this shit" attitude is the vibe that drives women absolutely wild. I watched women a foot taller than this guy compete for his attention and he had his snap full of pictures from them like "hey I'm bored come see me before your set, I'll be wearing ..."

So no, you can definitely make up for a lack of looks. But it's not confidence so much as it's substance + self belief

[–]ComprehensivePen71 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GO_Zark 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

if you don't have the looks, women definitely won't respect you

Looks are not the end all be all of dating. How women respect you (or don't) is basically [1. how attractive you are to her overall] * [2. the amount of shit you let her get away with]

1 is pretty simple. Everyone's attracted to different things but the basics of being attractive are pretty universal - base attractiveness, grooming, style, hygiene, confidence, lifestyle, etc and you should work on leveling up all of them except base attractiveness which you're sort of stuck with unless you want to go the surgical route (which I don't recommend unless you're already sitting on 10% body fat and are over the age of 28)

2 is the social aspect which a lot of guys have problems grasping initially. You can be super rich, hot, smart etc but if you do not place boundaries and keep enforcing them no matter how hot the woman or what she does in/out of bed, they can and often will run all over you and lose respect for you in the process. I have been this guy (thankfully not any more) and then I've also watched it happen to others many, many times.

Men who have their own lives and who include her in those lives are attractive. Men who structure their whole lives around what she wants to do and keeping her happy usually fall short.

you're mistaking some esoteric confidence personality bullshit with just simple status

Nope. Clout chasers and club bunnies are pretty fickle. That's not entirely their fault, usually they're young and hot with lots of people clamoring for their attention so they just get used to it. If Jay had been just some 5'2" average dude DJ they would've probably just taken selfies (with the DJ, omg~) and moved on rather than being up his ass about meetups and "I miss you"s and all that other shit for weeks or months after he interacted with them for 5-10 minutes.

You really think "being the DJ at the local nightclub she went to one time" conveys so much status that he's living in her head rent-free for weeks? Nah. Not even close.

[–]Dracron 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I have a friend whose fat and gets laid constantly, I have a friend with weird buggy eyes and a receding hairline, whose married now and was pulling different girls from every class he went to in college. They both had confidence and thats all they needed. They have said if they had my looks they'd be pulling super models, but I have considerably less confidence and get laid infrequently, mostly cause i don't go out to where I can meet women as often as they do.

They would go out have a good time and sometimes a girl came home with them or invited them back to her place. It didn't matter to them if they took any girl home most nights, and it wasn't a big deal if they got turned down, because they had as much respect for the girls they were hanging around with as they had for themselves and vice versa. No one is higher value then they are, everyone is just human and humans like to have a good time and that leads to and includes sex.

Step two to gaining any portion of that kind of confidence is to stop worrying about things you can't change. Step one is to stop bitching about things you can't change to other people to try gain sympathy or make it sound like you shouldn't even be trying.

[–]ComprehensivePen71 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Dracron 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Confidence is a by product of many things, but the less you have the less you get laid. Confidence is also a by product of not giving a shit about what people think about you or whether your going to get laid with a given person, doing things to make your life better and being able to just go out and have fun with no expectations.

People are not just born with confidence, and while good looking people have an easier time getting it, they don't have a monopoly on it and its not guaranteed they will have it.

If people who aren't good looking can't have it both of my friends wouldn't have gotten laid.

Now I can tell you've never truly had it, when it comes to women but you have tried to fake it, which is not the same. When you feel like there is no reason for a girl to date you it comes through in your body language and demeanor. Those signs that you give off are a huge turn off to most women, because most women have met men that put those signs out there and have had bad experiences, like stalkers, psychos, and sometimes just meant they got a call at 3am by a man crying for them to come back and they only dated for a couple of weeks, and they don't want more of that.

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You build the rapport in person, this is what the guy was getting at in the first portion of his comment; if you have the number, it means you met her somehow, that is where you're building rapport. Texting back and forth endlessly is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot. Why would you want to "build rapport" over text when you could have, for example, simply invited the girl out to grab ice cream and walk in the park? Your rapport is going to be infinitely more valuable with that approach vs. sitting on your ass at home texting a girl for weeks. Also, what if you go on that ice cream date, and you realize 5 minutes in that you aren't vibing or don't like her all that much? If you texted her for 2 weeks instead of the 1-2 hour date, you have now turned what should have only been about an hour of time wasted into many hours over multiple weeks of wasted time. I used to do this texting bullshit when I was younger too, I think most guys do it at some point early on in their dating life, but it's a big mistake that you should get past.

Now, for instance, I try to keep the texting as minimal as possible and simply use it for logistics. Here's another thing, if you're texting a girl for hours/ days/ weeks before going on a date, you've most likely already blown through a bunch of your best stories. Huge mistake. You can tell a story way better in person, make it super engaging, funny, etc. Over text? You've literally just given her a couple paragraphs to read, you wasted the story.

[–]Evil_god7 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MrDownhillRacer 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of the things like "escalation ladder" are formalized versions of some basic ass common sense, but broken down into something actionable and digestible so that people can use them.

No, you don't need to follow some invariant, precise process of progressing physical contact in a certain way. "Step One is always a tap on the shoulder, repeated three times within a span of 12 minutes. When this is achieved, proceed to Step Two, the light touch on the hand." Like, duh it isn't like that.

But it's basic common sense that 95% of women don't want your tongue down their throat in the first ten minutes of a date before she's gotten comfortable with you. Yeah, you can find the rare wild one that does. Most people aren't like that.

So, you have guys that get nervous on dates, get flustered, don't know what to do, are too afraid to make a move because they don't want to be "creepy," and end up having a polite conversation over tea where the woman sees the man as a friendly guy, but doesn't feel any "spark."

If you just tell that guy, "you were supposed to kiss her, bro!", that won't help him, because he knows he can't just go straight to kissing her, but he also doesn't know how to get to the point where he can. You tell him that "you've got to escalate," and that's better, but he will end up not knowing how to go about it even if he understands the general principle.

You say, "okay, start with some excuse to touch her hand, like complimenting her nails or some shit. Then later on, hand on lap, and if she moves closer to you/reciprocates instead of moving away or not responding, do blah blah blah."

Now you have something you can actually go in and use. If the vague "just feel the vibes bro and be yourself and stop thinking so much" advice worked for most people, you wouldn't have communities of guys who feel the need to learn how to flirt properly in the first place. It's not some "natural instinct" for everyone. For many, it's a skill that has to be learned and practiced, like piano or dance or writing or anything else. If some person became a good dancer "intuitively" and never had to be conscious of their learning and practicing to get better, that person is not going to be able to give useful advice to somebody who lacks that lucky, innate dance intuition on how to become a better dancer. They are going to say useless shit like "just feel it in your soul dude lol," when this person needs to be shown where to actually place their feet.

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[–]Alpha-011 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Hey, I have been 12 years coaching. Explaining your shit quickly:

first, I know exactly what you're talking about, THAT'S TRUE.
but once Tyler said, "lots of girls will go for the average guy and the average player has more chances to get/fuck these girls" however you WILL NEVER get the 10/10 the supermodel 15/15 because they need a sharp guy.
To maintain your girlfriends you need years of experience
In a group of average guys THE GIRL WILL PICK THE MOST STRONG/EXPERIENCED/MATURE GUY first.

Don't tell Don't do game bc is awkward and is just awful for you.

*the reason why girls will pick the average guy is AUTHENTICITY when you become advanced you can show off as a player while the average will show off as an awkward but authentic guy.

Also, a lot of things you say and behaviors you show off, may not be congruent with your actions hence punishing your game.

GIRLS WILL TEST ALPHAS and other players MORE OFTEN.

...and in the end, you may not be the average guy you think you are..probably you have shown some alpha qualities, one of them "approach the girl" not a lot of guys will do that.

tattoos are not an alpha sign:

it could be this guy went through a lot of pain and jail, he expressed his tattoos
also he doesn't care enough about society
he could be an artist

either way, the tattoo itself doesn't represent an alpha trait, I know a lot of players who don't have tattoos and get a lot of girls

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I will explain one reason for that. The hard irony is, most guys going to a pickup site/training/coach do have inner barriers inside their heads, WHICH NEED A LICENSED THERAPIST/PSYCHIATRIST TO BE EFFECTIVELY REMOVED OR WEAKENED. But psychotherapist or psychiatrist is not fashionable, hip or cool, so guys go to pickup community, which doesn’t fix the barriers inside their heads, but gives them a lot of «ammo» they think (to a large extent mistakenly, because of the barriers I have mentioned) they need. I don’t diss the pickup industry, obviously some teachers are better then others and probably even the worst of them have some good advice — but they can’t cure the cause of a lot of problems, which is in a lot of cases psychiatric, even biochemical in nature, because they didn’t go to medical school. So the students struggle for years, either not progressing at all, or progressing, but still feeling a lot of stress and doing a lot of unnecessary and even counter-productive work.

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[–]rangamatchstick 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rangamatchstick 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bokan 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ohropax[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dbreezeyyo 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ohropax[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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