Finantial abortion arguments are incoherent

Inomaker · 2024-11-18T20:40:39+00:00

Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

Abortion is about parenthood, bodily autonomy is the justification. You don't get an abortion because "my body my choice" you get an abortion because "I can't/don't want to be a parent". Medical issues aside.

Men do not have abortion rights because they can't get pregnant, its that easy.

This point ignores the argument entirely.

if a fetus could survive outside of the womb of a woman, the woman would still be liable for child support.

Late term abortions are currently performed on fetuses that are viable outside of the womb all the time without it being medically necessary. Irrelevant though.

How is it doing an action that prevents you from dealing with child support in the future equal to finantial abortion?

You're simplifying the opposing argument. This is a strawman.

People in favor of financial abortion aren't seeking equality, they're seeking equity. Equity being the term used here because men and women have distinct biological differences. Generally financial abortion is expected to be a decision made within the same timeline as a physical abortion following similar policy already in place. However there are those that support an advanced agreement before a woman even gets pregnant.

The idea being that since a woman currently has the sole choice to either keep or abort the fetus due to not being willing or able to be a parent, the man should also have a similar choice to make the situation more equitable. If a woman decides to go through with the pregnancy, that's her choice and it's done with full knowledge there will be no support for her child.

LoopyPro · 2024-11-18T21:12:35+00:00

The reason abortion rights exist is due to an understanding that no human should be forced to give away its body to support another human being. This extends to many things outside of abortion

If I use my body to earn a salary that I am legally forced to give away, it would mean my bodily autonomy is being violated.

Not ejaculating inside of a fertile woman

Doing a vasectomy

This is the male equivalent of the terrible "just close your legs" or "just tie up your tubes" argument. Do you really want to go there?

It's about giving both men and woman an opt-out. For women it's having an abortion. For men it's a waiver.

caption291 · 2024-11-18T23:09:49+00:00

The reason abortion rights exist is due to an understanding that no human should be forced to give away its body to support another human being.

I think you have a very self-serving idea of what bodily autonomy actually means if it excludes having to work for someone elses well being under threat of prison.

Nubiatem · 2024-11-18T20:44:32+00:00

I’m struggling to understand how men being a wage slave for a kid they didn’t want isn’t a bodily autonomy issue. For 18 years, because a condom broke I’ll be on the hook to pay for a kid. No thanks. Either we both can opt out or you only get abortions if medically necessary. I don’t need someone else deciding if I’m a wage slave.

toasterchild · 2024-11-18T20:00:18+00:00

I agree with this stance but am wondering if it's ok to another question to the debate?

Would it not be better for everyone if we valued not making unwanted pregnancies at all and made reliable forms of birth control free and easy to access to the masses? Do the people who support a man's right to "financial abortion" also support society trying to eliminate unwanted pregnancy from the beginning?

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-11-18T23:04:25+00:00

Every argument for financial abortion I’ve seen ignores the reality of how many men (and some women) AGREE to have a child and then later want to dip when the relationship doesn’t work out. Sure, oopsie babies happen, but people really underestimate how many were planned and then “heh never mind.” Most, actually all, single parents I know, it was not an unplanned pregnancy.

LapazGracie · 2024-11-18T19:59:00+00:00

Feminism versus Real world is often an issue of practical versus fair.

What is the most practical approach?

The current one.

What is the most fair approach?

You give men the same amount of time a woman has to decide if they even want to be a parent. And if they don't they lose all parental rights. But also don't have to pay anything.

I suspect the practical is going to be the approach for quite some time. Until AI starts making our economies so productive that we don't even have a need for things like child support.

Grow_peace_in_Bedlam · 2024-11-19T04:28:44+00:00

Safe harbor laws give women financial abortion for themselves already.

Not to mention that financial abortion for men already exists—as long as it's the woman opting for it, whether by having a child using a sperm donor or by refusing to name the father on the birth certificate.

Also, the "it's just biology" argument is very weak for me, especially since many of the same women who are against financial abortion are also pro-IVF.

Finally:

A) Fetuses are do not have rights to child support, an aborted fetus is still a fetus.

Since financial abortion would take place before the embryo or fetus potentially becomes a child, it would not be child abandonment, just as abortion is not infanticide.

If a man makes clear to a woman that he does not want to be a father, but she still decides to bring the pregnancy to term, why should the man be responsible for that unilateral decision? And how is that morally any different from a woman choosing to become a single mother through a sperm donor?

mashedturnip · 2024-11-18T20:18:03+00:00

The strongest argument is that we used to do that, and now pretty much no one does.

Because it’s bad to have an even larger underclass

EbbAltruistic1760 · 2024-11-18T22:15:11+00:00

The reason abortion rights exist is due to an understanding that no human should be forced to give away its body to support another human being. This extends to many things outside of abortion....Men do not have abortion rights because they can't get pregnant, its that easy.

So then, as long as selective-service applies only to men, no votes for women, right?

Their bodies aren't potentially on the line, so they have no say.

If you disagree you are hypocrite and your (pathetic attempt at a) point is invalid.

Ineedtogetthisout97 · 2024-11-18T19:56:31+00:00

It is a medical procedure. The argument is always about a woman who doesn’t want the kid - not the dead fetus inside her that needs the medical procedure known as abortion or she will die. Every argument is about getting even - makes it hard to see the act as equality it provides.

Edit: also majority of abortions are married couples. What it reinforces can also be taken as men are ok with their partner dying if it prevents them from paying potential child support.

FathomArtifice · 2024-11-18T23:19:24+00:00

You're correct that a women's right to choose parenthood automatically comes from their right to bodily autonomy, but that doesn't mean the right to choose parenthood isn't valuable in and of itself. I would still support abortion even for hypothetical incubator babies if a couple wanted it. Bodily autonomy is completely out of the picture here. In other words, the right to choose parenthood exists independently of the right to bodily autonomy and I doubt most financial abortion proponents would care nearly as much about fairness if they didn't think the right to choose parenthood was important.

The crux of the financial abortion debate is that feminists and patriarchal men think the decision to choose parenthood is final when a man impregnates a woman, while financial abortion proponents think they should have more time to decide on that (usually some time before 24 weeks so that the mother has time to react to this new information). This is completely disregarding cases where a women is deceiving a man by lying about being on birth control or birth control failed. I think you'd have to be daft to argue against financial abortion even after birth in these cases.

PaintingFeeling3576 · 2024-11-19T02:48:27+00:00

I agree that many of the arguments are incoherent; I think it should simply come down to this.

If a woman chooses to keep her baby while she is fully aware that the baby’s father does not want the baby, she should be prepared to raise the child alone.

a_minty_fart · 2024-11-19T06:17:36+00:00

Every argument for abortion can be used to support financial abortion.

I don't care either way, I've given up on humans.

valerianandthecity · 2024-11-19T15:38:39+00:00

Equality is desirable, but you have to tell biology first

Men do not have abortion rights because they can't get pregnant, its that easy.

There's nothing biological/physical linking a man's money to a baby, so any obligation you are arguing for is mind-dependent and enforced through violence.

You're calling it a financial abortion, a different description is; forcing a man to pay for a child that they may not have wanted, nor have any involvement with.

If you take the argument away from an attempted tit for tat comparison to literal abortion then there's other arguments.

If you want to force men to take financial responsibility of a child, then how can you not force women who give their child up for adoption to do the same? If you argue that the adopted parents now have custody and legal guardianship of the child so the biological mother should no longer be held financially responsible, then how can you be against men giving up custody and legal guardianship to the mother and walking away from financial responsibility?

IMO in order to consistent then you need to be against women who give children up for adoption not being made to pay for their kids.

How can you coherently support a woman giving up custody and legal guardianship, and no longer being financial responsible for a child, but not supporting a man doing the same? You can't if you support current adoption laws.

(For the record; I don't condone men abandoning kids. I encourage men to be an integral part of a child's life. However, that is different from saying there is a fair and logical argument against men being allowed to walk away legally from financial responsibility for a child.)

Intelligent-Insight · 2024-11-20T19:08:06+00:00

The point is about parenthood though. It is not equal if only one potential parent can decide whether or not they will be a parent. If you want to talk biology first, sure. Let's talk biology. How come men are forced to face biological consequences of their actions and women aren't? Not very equal. Naturally and biologically, a man could just leave, right? Think animals and humans before society/law, thousands of years ago. So how come that's illegal, but it is legal to overwrite what would happen to a woman? Not very equal.

ImaginaryDimension74 · 2024-11-18T20:44:33+00:00

Women have several ways to legally opt out of parenthood, once conception is suspected abortion being only one of these. Men should have at least one way to legally opt out as well. It’s not fair that women should have several reproductive rights while men mainly have reproductive responsibilities. Those that use the term “financial abortion”, aren’t helping their cause. Men legally being able to surrender parenthood has nothing to do with abortion and shouldn’t be equated with it.

peteypete78 · 2024-11-18T21:31:52+00:00

Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

Red herring.

Most abortions are performed for women wanting to opt out of being a parent.

untamed-italian · 2024-11-18T22:23:57+00:00

Finantial abortion arguments are incoherent

Oh boy.

Financial, btw.

If true equality should exist between the sex, finantial abortions should be an option for men, because women can opt out of parenthood via abortion, thus, a similar right of opting out of parenthood should exist for men. The incoherence: 1. Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

Parenthood is the socially and legally enforced status of subordinating your own bodily autonomy to the needs of your child. So your claim is actually an incoherent claim of incoherence - the argument you claim is incoherent actually makes perfect sense.

This is what finantial abortion attempts to be, an incoherent ramble that equates bodily autonomy with parental responsabilities.

Their argument does not equate bodily autonomy with parental responsibilities, it frames these two things as diametrically opposed!

How are you getting this so wrong? Is English not your native language?

Ziogatto · 2024-11-18T20:19:56+00:00

that no human should be forced to give away its body to support another human being

How do you think men earn money? We aren't all wallstreet bros.

Doing a vasectomy prevents you from paying child support,

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=forced+to+pay+child+support+for+child+not+his

PrimateOfGod · 2024-11-18T20:00:45+00:00

Learn to spell

the_1st_inductionist · 2024-11-18T21:34:35+00:00

Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

Your bodily autonomy is for you to live and pursue happiness. In the case of abortion, it’s about you being able to have sex for pleasure with someone you love and choose when/if you’re going to become a parent according to what’s best for you. Bodily autonomy isn’t an end itself.

For men, they shouldn’t automatically have parental rights and responsibilities if they accidentally impregnate a woman outside of marriage. In those circumstances, they should only have parental rights and responsibilities if the woman offers and if he accepts.

Men do not have abortion rights because they can’t get pregnant, it’s that easy.

Men shouldn’t have the same rights surrounding pregnancy as women because they can’t get pregnant. The difference between the right to abort and a financial abortion reflects that. A man can get pregnant, so he can’t kill the fetus.

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balsag43 · 2024-11-18T20:48:11+00:00

So do you have a problem with it or only those arguments in particular?

Since we could just as easily call it something else and still support the very concept of it.

Or in other words do you take issue with the very concept of it or just the words financial abortion?

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-11-18T21:07:58+00:00

Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

What about the men body autonomy to not work for something he don't want?

Equality is desirable, but you have to tell biology first

Ok so can we roll back all the ESG and DEI? Since men biologically work harder without outside incentives people will priorize hiring men.

Fetuses are do not have rights to child support, an aborted fetus is still a fetus.

Your argument is the one that don't make sense, You cannot logically say you want a way out (abortion) while also want to keep men tied to your choices as well. It just give you advantages for no drawback at the same time that give men no advantage with all the drawback.

How is it doing an action that prevents you from dealing with child support in the future equal to finantial abortion?

In this case both are removing their responsibility from the situation. A woman don't have to rise the child and a man don't have to foot the bill. If you consider that both genders has their own reproductive goals and MEN SHOULD HAVE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS they're equals.

If you can do wrong, i should also have the same right

Typical strawman.

Xeltar · 2024-11-19T00:54:21+00:00

I don't find the arguments incoherent and there certainly has been feminist support for it, on the basis that men and women should have equal duties and responsibilities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_abortion

I'd be in favor of it if we have strong abortion rights for women because certainly that is more important than the financial considerations. Certainly also could be the argument would need to be responsible for half the cost of an abortion if the mother then chooses to abort. Consenting to sex is not consenting to having kids and fetal personhood should not be a thing just because a fetus can become a person.

But like there are certainly cases where it just looks indefensible to say a biological father is required to support his child simply because he's the biological father. Female on male SA and birth control sabotage isn't really a choice on the father's part and just sounds fundamentally unfair. We already don't force sperm donors to pay child support to their biological kids...

KikiYuyu · 2024-11-19T03:23:13+00:00

Abortion is not about parenthood, but bodily autonomy

Women already have bodily autonomy, it's just women have the unique position of being able to have bodies inside their own body.

Equality is desirable, but you have to tell biology first

No biological equality required. We can reach equality by allowing a man to freely abandon his child the same way a woman should supposedly be able to freely abort it.

Title	Finantial abortion arguments are incoherent
Author	Termodynamicslad
Upvotes	0
Comments	156
Date	November 18, 2024 7:42 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1gudjji/finantial_abortion_arguments_are_incoherent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/finantial-abortion-arguments-are-incoherent.1536145 https://theredarchive.com/post/1536145

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