Off Topic Thread: Feminism (11 May 2019)

AutoModerator · 2019-05-11T18:08:20+00:00

For some reason y'all seem incredibly keen to discuss feminism. Normally unless its directly related to RP/Relationships/Getting Laid we consider it...

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I’m less “we don’t need feminism” and more “life is a zero sum blood bath, expect the worst or die naive.”

That being said, the retard red states hate abortion and nothing will stop them. They are trying desperately to push the issue to overturn roe v wade with deliberately outrageous laws that will cause court cases making it to the Supreme Court. They will likely eventually win, but it will be a “states rights” issue and CA/Wa/NY will have abortions legal until catholic Hispanics outvote liberal whites who don’t breed.

The pro choice side slept and sneered at the dumbfuck Jesus freaks who can’t know any better. Meanwhile, the anti abortion crowd was in it to win it. I used to shit on them publicly and they took it with gratitude, they took any chance to plea their case to anyone on any terms from any background and would take any allies they could get. They were true believers and their perseverance and tactics have unfortunately paid off. 🤷‍♀️

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Do you actually want a woman who you accidentally knock up to be forced to have the baby (and you are thus forced to pay child support)?

Men are forced to pay child support anyway. Men aren't gaining anything by women being the sole gender with the ability to choose, but by removing that ability from women, men and society in general is gaining something; a movement towards equality of the genders.

Should we stop concerning ourselves with things like prostate cancer and testosterone replacement therapy that have no female biological equivalent too?

Only if we stop concerning ourselves with breast cancer and ovarian cancer. And, it's interesting that you mention that since, despite the fact that prostate cancer kills about the same number of men as breast cancer kills women, breast cancer gets significantly more funding. So really, we already don't care about prostate cancer and testosterone replacement therapy.

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It's a natural reaction to the side effects of feminism.

You see, here's the weird and uncomfortable truth. Societies value babies. It's why women and children go on the lifeboats. More children mean more workers, more children mean a large pool of young to look after the old and these days also means more productivity because we are on a treadmill where we constantly need more and more productivity to keep up with the fact that we've replaces money with debt.

Feminism told women they weren't special because of their reproductive capacity but their inherent specialness as women and that the mere presence of the vagina, totally unused, makes her a better person.

It's getting so bad, fertilitywise, that countries are going to war zones and saying "brig us your child soldiers, your deranged rapists, and your warlords, we'll pay them tons of welfare, just come and make children here". Not a racist put-down, I'm saying they will take that risk. The way we do society demands more people.

And since women are refusing to breed, well..... that's fine, the option not to will be taken from them. And where it starts is with the "easiest" of sells. Describing de-limbing a child for the convenience of a woman is going to play very well amongst some women as well as many men. Going "women, you are fit to be breeding machines, get to it" will not, outside of Islam, white power compounds and Quebec.

That's what this is really about.

You're going to see more of this, as countries try diplomatically not to say "we're not really interested in remaking our society in the image of as ISIS pit or having our pavements shat on by people who haven't figured out how plumbing works" Because that's racist, and in our international world would piss off these places we have to deal with. So instead they're just going to start doing things like claiming abortions are murder, and instituting bachelor taxes, and eventually forcing men to breed in order to inherit property and/or being issued wives.

It's happened before.

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The first point. When you're online all the time, ie reddit/youtube/facebook ... it distorts what reality is. The majority of people don't think that way, so it can seem like feminism is more prominent than it actually is.

The second point you say "You don't fuckin' say" and then go on to say "evil white oppressors" etc. That's my exact point. Most people don't think like that. My guess is you watch alot of youtube videos and browse reddit alot. That's just not what you experience in real life. It's not a crisis like certain people online act.

You're sort of proving my point mate. And to be clear, this is not to say that what the extreme feminists say is correct, I think it's horrible. The point is there is no need to actually panic because most people don't agree and most people don't describe themselves as feminists.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

When you're online all the time, ie reddit/youtube/facebook ... it distorts what reality is. The majority of people don't think that way, so it can seem like feminism is more prominent than it actually is.

I'm not online all the time. I go to shows, hang out with my friends, do acid, run my business, etc. I find time here and there, and in the time I get to check my Instagram, I'll see a couple posts about how "straight white men" are cowards/evil/talentless/unattractive. And that's just from people I know - that's before I go on to love my own fucking life and nonetheless get swept into the social dialogue of the day. That's before everyone starts talking about an ad from Gillette that a priori assumes all men to be contributors to social toxicity, that's before I have to listen to a week's worth of my feminist friends (who allegedly don't exist - even in a rural red state) rant about how all men are trash because Alabama passed a shitty abortion law (I forgot all of we men - all 3.5 billion of us - flew in to tip the vote because screw the women ).

It doesn't distort what reality is. It gives us a live window view OF reality. It's not the cat videos or the inspirational handicapped person videos or anything like that - it's the unremarkable people you know who you had no idea but who nonetheless held odious views about a group that you have no choice but to identify with.

The second point you say "You don't fuckin' say" and then go on to say "evil white oppressors" etc.

<-- point

you

Most people don't think like that.

The fuck does it matter if it's most? MOST men don't rape women, that didn't stop Congress from passing a law literally called the Violence Against Women Act - despite the fact that men are far and away the largest recipients of violence. Let me guess, there's not real life? That's not MOST people? That's just those crazy whackjobs called "the United States Government" that no one takes seriously?

It's not a crisis like certain people online act.

I didn't call it a crisis. I called it shitty, and likely to get shittier. Society has withstood men offing themselves for millennia without messing a beat in it's stride. I have no reason to believe it won't continue to do so, even if the number of men choosing to do that rises.

The point is there is no need to actually panic because most people don't agree and most people don't describe themselves as feminists.

I'm not panicking, man. I'm not writing screeds in the New York Times screeching about how MEN ARE UNDER ATTACK. Kind of telling that you ignore the very people who are, in fact, doing that, but. I'm just saying, I'm not panicking. I'm mostly just depressed. It'd be nice to not have to loudest mouthpieces in society telling me to hate myself, but I guess that's... too much to ask for? Apparently?

[–]Einzakin0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well I sort of feel for you man. You're very passionate about this subject, and it's understandable. If it's any consolation I had a beautiful 23 year old-girl tell me last weekend I couldn't talk about something because I was a white male. She didn't really believe it, it was her talking point. I calmly explained my POV and she explained hers. I can see where she's coming from because I guess certain 'white men' in the past have done shitty things, but I don't think it's good to generalize or be racist to ANY race.

But yah I see examples once in a while. I try not to let it get to me, because all I can really control is myself. I know the worlds a pretty great place if you just put in effort and take care of yourself. People can feel your intentions. That's my experience atleast.

You seem like you're in a shitty place and it has nothing to do with society etc. I'd suggest if you really want to move forward you need to stop being a victim and learn you have fucking control over almost everything. Figure out what you need to do, and do it. It ain't going to be easy but there's light at the end of the tunnel. Certain businesses want you to believe there's a gender war between men and women when in reality men love women and women love men. Part of the reason I browse the purple pill because I can't commit to the ideology that is the red pill, even if some of the things they say is correct. Good luck though, I was in your exact thinking space probably 2 years ago and it sucked. You're not a victim though.

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[–]we-are-men-with-ven12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

I think we still have work to do.

I recently interviewed two parents for my dissertation and they both spoke about feminism and how they worked it into their model of parenting.

They both had concerns about how we market toys to girls. Girl toys are based around being pretty, and it's giving girls the message that their aspirations In life should be abut beautifying themselves. It's a stark contrast to the toys marketed to boys (building, exploring ect)

One women accumulated 70 years of teenage girls private diaries, and one thing that really stood out was the change in their aspirations over time. Around the second world war the girls were writing about being a good person and contributing to society positively. However in the last few decades almost all the girls talked about improving their appearence.

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Because gender roles and aspirations change according to different cultures and time.

That doesn't really answer the question. What makes you think that the toys you're talking about aren't being marketed in the way they are because the producers have discovered how to appeal to intrinsic behaviors?

Also, if you work with young children you can easily see how people encourage certain behaviours. Even new born babies are treated differently.

I've worked with children, and the most interesting thing to see is what they do when they're on their own without active encouragement. Give barbies to 6 year old boys and they'll start having barbie deathmatches. Give cars to similarly aged girls and it's mommy and daddy car in the car hospital taking care of the sick car. Let them draw and the boys will draw cars and buses, while the girls draw flowers and people. Of course not every kid acts like this, but it's the general trend.

When you're talking about encouragement you're forgetting that children are actors in this process as well. They seek out encouragement through body language, voice tonality, facial expressions etc for behaviors they are concerned with, and they are visibly proud when adults compliment them for things they care about. Tons of parents have tried and failed to mold their children into what they themselves wanted to be through encouragement. But children have agency.

And when it comes to babies, there are studies literally documenting gender differences in interests (measured by time spent looking at pictures of either people or machines) from the moment a child is born.

I'm not saying nothing is socially constructed - of course lots of things are. I just think we should be really careful assuming the interests of children are socially constructed. Our innate behaviors and interests is what shaped our hobbies, talents, interests and friends. Living in line with them is what makes you happy - and denying them is what makes you miserable. This also applies to boys/girls who don't feel at home in typical gender roles.

[–]we-are-men-with-ven1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I think we're on a similar page. I have said several times that it's a mixture of intinsic biological behaviour and outside influences. I haven't denied the psychological existence of gender, and I haven't said that absolutely everything is socially constructed.

For examples of influence see ecological systems theory by broffenbrenner. Also if you google the baby X experiment, you can see how from birth children are treated differently according to gender.

When you're talking about encouragement you're forgetting that children are actors in this process as well.

No I'm not forgetting, as I said..it's a combination of both. Child development is proximal and bidirectional. They are similataniously PRODUCERS and PRODUCTS.

That doesn't really answer the question. What makes you think that the toys you're talking about aren't being marketed in the way they are because the producers have discovered how to appeal to intrinsic behaviors?

Because those toys appeal to children with a certain upbringing, they have contexts. Fatherhood is part of male biology, no? Yet how many boys toys role play fatherhood? And it's biological for women to contribute to her family and community, no? Yet not many girls toys reflect actually being productive. They also reflect western beauty standarsa. A real, female human baby does not have longer eyelashes than male babies..yet baby girl toys do (go look next time you're at a toy store).

One explanation is that companies make way more money having seperate toys. If a parent has to children of different genders, they will have to buy twice the toys. It's was only during the second half of the 21st century that blue became a boys colour and pink a girls one.

Living in line with them is what makes you happy - and denying them is what makes you miserable

To flip that over - how many children derive unhappiness because they don't fit in with their expected gender roles?

I've worked with children, and the most interesting thing to see is what they do when they're on their own without active encouragement.

You're not looking at the myriad of other influences surrounding that child. Maybe you or your coworkers tried to encourage this behaviour, but what about their parents? Media? Random adults in the supermarket? They are soaking all that in.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Because those toys appeal to children with a certain upbringing, they have contexts.

This is the premise you have yet to actually provide a convincing argument for.

Fatherhood is part of male biology, no? Yet how many boys toys role play fatherhood?

That's a very vague statement. Fatherhood is a social construct within another social construct - the modern family. Biological gender differences (on a group level) are much more narrow and specific. The aspects of fatherhood which may be biological is the urge to protect and fight for one's offspring, and maybe the urge to gather resources and gain power or status. All of those things are role played by boys.

And it's biological for women to contribute to her family and community, no? Yet not many girls toys reflect actually being productive.

Again - you're talking in social constructs. It's biological for women to be more (on average) anxious, worried and stressed than men, to be much more risk averse, and to have a larger interest in people than in things, as well as more compassion for them(the people). How they play reflects this.

They also reflect western beauty standarsa. A real, female human baby does not have longer eyelashes than male babies..yet baby girl toys do (go look next time you're at a toy store).

Another biological difference is the interest in aesthetics. It's very likely that the girls simply prefer the prettier one. And given the fact that eyelash/eyebrow/eyeshadow makeup dates back as far as we have recorded history (ancient egypt) I wouldn't really call it a western beauty standard. There's probably some innate reason for the human tendancy to surround eyes with dark shades. As opposed to say, the nose.

One explanation is that companies make way more money having seperate toys. If a parent has to children of different genders, they will have to buy twice the toys. It's was only during the second half of the 21st century that blue became a boys colour and pink a girls one.

Colors are probably a result of gender roles, that I'll agree with. But the segmentation of children's toys is also IIRC something we find archeological evidence of in every culture. Little swords and hero figures for boys, little dolls for girls. Hell, even monkeys apparently have similar preferences:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

And here's a few other studies as well:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate

To flip that over - how many children derive unhappiness because they don't fit in with their expected gender roles?

Statistically I'd guess about a third of children have difficulties with this based on the distribution of traits. The solution is to start looking at children as individuals. Get to know who they are as a person and teach them to interact with the world. If they're comfortable in their gender roles - good for them! Don't take that away from them! If they're not - support them, give them the confidence and self-esteem to be different without shame.

Forcing gender roles on someone who doesn't want them is a shitty thing to do. Forcing someone not to be who they are even if they conform to gender roles you find boring or old fashioned is equally shitty.

You're not looking at the myriad of other influences surrounding that child. Maybe you or your coworkers tried to encourage this behaviour, but what about their parents? Media? Random adults in the supermarket? They are soaking all that in.

Of course I'm thinking about all of the influences they're getting. You're talking about high school level social science. Even if they are surrounded with impressions, they will still end up mostly chasing what they find rewarding - which all evidence points to having a strong biological basis. There's tons of stories about children being brought up as ballet dancers, violinists, athletes etc and the moment they have independence they start doing something completely different. Even though they've been encouraged to do something else their entire lives. Children aren't blank slates. Sure, they absorb impression they get - but these impressions are processed in a cognitive structure which is strongly biological in nature.

[–]we-are-men-with-ven0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Statistically I'd guess about a third of children have difficulties with this based on the distribution of traits.

If you premise is true, a third of children having difficulties is an alarming number and absolutely requires some change.

If they're comfortable in their gender roles - good for them! Don't take that away from them!

I didn't say 'take them away' I'm calling for balance. They need a balance in role models, so they know there's different paths in life available. It's fine for a girl to wear dresses, and it's fine for them to be explorers and scientists.

they will still end up mostly chasing what they find rewarding

And people reward them by confirming that a certain toy/ aesthetic is 'good'. IE, a girl constantly told she's pretty, will start to dress 'pretty'.

Of course I'm thinking about all of the influences they're getting.

Yet you presented 'I saw a child do this' as a counter argument. I've also seen the opposite, innumerable times (I identified as a boy for four years. I wasn't/am not a trans person. I simply liked skateboarding and dinosaurs).

And here's a few other studies as well:

Both those studies say that it's a combination of socialisation and biology, which is what Ive been saying the whole time. In the psychology today article (which tbh I try not to reference), a user quite succiently said 'trucks were never part of the ancestral environment'. So you can't argue that they all emulate aspects of ancestral behaviour, because they weren't around. Also what about electric guitars?

And given the fact that eyelash/eyebrow/eyeshadow makeup dates back as far as we have recorded history (ancient egypt)

Ancient Egyptian men also wore eye make up

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If you premise is true, a third of children having difficulties is an alarming number and absolutely requires some change.

Yes. Which is to focus on them as individuals. Not to attempt a huge change which negatively affects the other 2/3 of the population and inevitably leads to a backlash.

I didn't say 'take them away' I'm calling for balance. They need a balance in role models, so they know there's different paths in life available. It's fine for a girl to wear dresses, and it's fine for them to be explorers and scientists.

Weren't you talking about how toy chains marketed toys to children? I don't remember seeing anything about female role models.

And people reward them by confirming that a certain toy/ aesthetic is 'good'. IE, a girl constantly told she's pretty, will start to dress 'pretty'.

You keep repeating that, but you don't reply to my argument:

What about the kids who someone tries to socialize a certain way their entire life - yet once they have freedom they do something completely different? What do you suppose makes them immune to this influence?

Yet you presented 'I saw a child do this' as a counter argument. I've also seen the opposite, innumerable times (I identified as a boy for four years. I wasn't/am not a trans person. I simply liked skateboarding and dinosaurs).

Yet? How does this contradict using an observation of children as an example? And by the way - you're the one who brought up working with children, not me. If you're going to claim that's an irrelevant example due to anecdotal evidence then so is your experience.

Both those studies say that it's a combination of socialisation and biology, which is what Ive been saying the whole time. In the psychology today article (which tbh I try not to reference), a user quite succiently said 'trucks were never part of the ancestral environment'. So you can't argue that they all emulate aspects of ancestral behaviour, because they weren't around. Also what about electric guitars?

No, but the cognitive traits which makes someone more interested in a truck than a doll today were part of the ancestral environment. Just like the same traits which makes someone direct a huge hollywood blockbuster today also made someone a storyteller in the neolithic period.

And yes - of course it's a mix. But you very clearly claimed that the toys were due to socialization. I'm asking you again: What basis do you have for that claim? How do you know marketers haven't homed in on the fundamental differences between the genders?

You're responding selectively to my comment, ignoring a lot of arguments. Why is that?

Ancient Egyptian men also wore eye make up

...yes. So it's not a product of "Western beauty standards" then, right?

[–]we-are-men-with-ven1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes. Which is to focus on them as individuals. Not to attempt a huge change which negatively affects the other 2/3 of the population and inevitably leads to a backlash

How on earth would having diversity of role models in toys impact other kids negetive? Some kids will go for the traditional 'girly' toys if that's what they like, where as the others will go for the other toys. No one loses.

...yes. So it's not a product of "Western beauty standards" then, right?

You brought up girls liking long eyelashes as something biological, to support that you presented the fact that Egyptian women wore make up - my counter argument is that so did men thus it's wasn't a gendered thing (oh also the Egyptians didn't wear mascara, they wore eyeliner..which doesn't go on the lashes but around the eye)

And yes - of course it's a mix. But you very clearly claimed that the toys were due to socialization.

I said it was a combination of biology and socialisation. You said it yourself that the blue and pink thing was invented.

What about the kids who someone tries to socialize a certain way their entire life - yet once they have freedom they do something completely different?

That 'someone' needs to acknowledge all the other outside factors influencing their child. Also some things are itrinsic, I havent disagreed with that. Trans kids would be a good example of this - they're raised one gender but want to be another.

If you're going to claim that's an irrelevant example due to anecdotal evidence then so is your experience.

Didn't say it was 'irelevent', I was just pointing out that it's one factor amongst many, and it doesn't negate my original point that people in nurseries encourage gender roles.

Weren't you talking about how toy chains marketed toys to children? I don't remember seeing anything about female role models.

The characters that toys are modelled on (IE Barbie) are the role models.

How do you know marketers haven't homed in on the fundamental differences between the genders?

Their motivation is to sell as much as possible, that's why the toys are so polarised. Also they're clearly based on gender roles of the last century.

No, but the cognitive traits which makes someone more interested in a truck than a doll today were part of the ancestral environment. You're responding selectively to my comment, ignoring a lot of arguments. Why is that?

Which ones? Either I just agreed with the point, or its simply too much to respond to.

No, but the cognitive traits which makes someone more interested in a truck than a doll today were part of the ancestral environment.

Interesting point and it's possible. However I think it's more likely that more truck drivers are male, thus boys like to model themselves on that. Also what about electric guitars? I don't see any ancestral masculine traits in those?

[–][deleted]1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How on earth would having diversity of role models in toys impact other kids negetive? Some kids will go for the traditional 'girly' toys if that's what they like, where as the others will go for the other toys. No one loses.

I didn't say that diversifying role models was negative. I was talking about steering kids away from gendered toys, which is what I understood you wanted.

You brought up girls liking long eyelashes as something biological, to support that you presented the fact that Egyptian women wore make up - my counter argument is that so did men thus it's wasn't a gendered thing (oh also the Egyptians didn't wear mascara, they wore eyeliner..which doesn't go on the lashes but around the eye)

No, I said women are likely just more concerned with things looking pretty. And different forms of make up to add shade around the eyes has been there since the egyptians, which implies that there's something biological which makes it look good.

I said it was a combination of biology and socialisation. You said it yourself that the blue and pink thing was invented.

You said:

They both had concerns about how we market toys to girls. Girl toys are based around being pretty, and it's giving girls the message that their aspirations In life should be abut beautifying themselves. It's a stark contrast to the toys marketed to boys (building, exploring ect)

And then I challenged you on how you knew that this was not simply marketers creating a market based on innate differences.

Their motivation is to sell as much as possible, that's why the toys are so polarised. Also they're clearly based on gender roles of the last century.

And there you go again making the same statement! I'm asking you to explain how you reach this conclusion. You're talking as if it's self-evident. How do you know girls and boys simply just want to play with those kind of toys at such a rate that this type of marketing makes sense?

Which ones? Either I just agreed with the point, or its simply too much to respond to.

For instance, what I wrote above.

Interesting point and it's possible. However I think it's more likely that more truck drivers are male, thus boys like to model themselves on that. Also what about electric guitars? I don't see any ancestral masculine traits in those?

Why do you think that's more likely? Like - how did you reach that conclusion?

And instead of just thinking about what ancestral traits you see - may I suggest that you actually read up on cognitive traits and the gender differences we know exist? Wikipedia is a great resource for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology

And take care to read about the methodology being applied to test how much of the variation is explained by the environment, and how much is explained by genetics.

[–]MGTOWKapow3 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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Toy manufacturers are in the business of making money

Well duh

Give a Barbie doll to a boy, and chances are he'll fold it into an L shape, and point it at another kid and go "bang!" and start running around playing an adventurous and high-energy form of X vs Y.

Because there's pervasive messages around children that shape what they like. This happens from birth. Google the 'baby X experiment'

We've tried this "get boys to sit still and knit, get girls to play with rocket ships" shit before. Doesn't work.

That's because it's short sighted. The influences are so pervasive, even if one adult tries to instill one idea, they can't control the influence of the child's peers, strangers I the street, television and so on. Sadly the messages you give to your child are overwhelmed by all the other influences.

Also as my example showed, there's a correlation between the increase in these beautified toys and girls aspirations.

People are a product of their environment. And our current environment is selling negetive ideas.

Alas though, lots of people are aware of this and actively push it back. I know several parents who make an effort to educate their girls in a certain way and it does show in their young girls. I've worked with and studied children for years and it's becoming quite apparent.

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You can't seriously argue that feminism is a movement that's arguing for limited government and personal responsibility. It's arguing for a leviathan government that provides a buffet of services to women largely exclusively, funded by the taxpayer.

You may not have benefited from all that free stuff, bully for you. The movement you defend still fights for them, and that's the rub. How ARE you strong, independent people if you get a smorgasbord of free shit, and people born with the wrong genitals don't?

And sorry I don't understand your solace statement can you clarify?

I like free stuff as much as the next person. I'm still capable of acknowledging that it's not right to nickel and dime Peter to pay Paul. At some point, Peter's money is Peter's, no matter how much of a sob story Paul can put up. At some point, Paul's problems become Paul's, they cease to be Peter's and they cease to be society's.

Curiously, that is precisely what the blues and women on this board regularly tell men (a winded way of saying "man up") - but when it's expected of them, when it's suddenly the free contraceptives or special treatment in courts of law that come into question, we can reliably count on feminists to come out of the woodwork and fight for these inequities. Men at least fought for feminism (STILL fight for feminism, despite the justification having nakedly changed from "If you think men and women are equal, YOU'RE a feminist!" to "Of course feminism is fights for women's interests!"), knowing full well that there would be increased competition and likely decreased status for them.

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[–]katymarx1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You realize it behooves you as a tax-paying person to enable free and easy access to contraceptives? Otherwise we're paying for all them single Mama babies. Condoms and the pill are much cheaper in comparison to 18 years then however long in the prison system.....

I'd rather not pay for any of it, but if I have to, then investments in education and access to birth control and abortion are insurance. It's not working great right now but I'm not in government nor decide policy, and even if I did, the puppet masters really in control need consumers and they don't really want population decline even if the growth is non workers because you and me pay for them anyway.

BTW I'm not a feminist, I have benefitted from the movement doesn't mean I support most of it.

So what else does being born w the right genitals get you aside from contraception and some support for your children so they don't become ragged paupers begging in the street for porridge whilst pickpocketing strangers to support their street gang? 😋

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You realize it behooves you as a tax-paying person to enable free and easy access to contraceptives?

This is said about literally everything that the progressive left wants. It's totally true!

...if you completely ignore personal responsibility, economic incentives, and resource scarcity. Also, your movement might've been able to credibly claim that argument had it extended contraceptive coverage to men... which it didn't. The solution toeverything is their novel, never-before-tried strategy of giving more to the government, and granting the government more authority.

Otherwise we're paying for all them single Mama babies.

There is no law of the universe requiring us to do this, either.

Condoms and the pill are much cheaper in comparison to 18 years then however long in the prison system.....

Agreed. Seems stupid not to take responsibility of your reproductive destiny, save some money, and get some condoms or a vasectomy or an I.U.D. or whatever. But you'll be able to fall back on forcing society to socialize every single one of your costs and bullshit away that "it's cheaper/better if other people pay for things for me!"

So what else does being born w the right genitals get you aside from contraception and some support for your children so they don't become ragged paupers begging in the street for porridge whilst pickpocketing strangers to support their street gang? 😋

Being able to blame all of your problems on the evil, stupid gender; a media industrial complex that promotes your interests and every turn; greater political representation; lighter sentencing for the same crimes; more access to higher education; the ability to shift accountability for your problems instead of bring forced to own them, etc.

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Feminism isn't about men. That's men's rights

Says who? Why can't it focus on liberating both men and women from certain gender roles and the reinforcement of stereotypes. The goal of feminism should be that each person be able to select that behavior and be judged as an individual, not as part of a group. So if a woman CHOOSES to be a house wife, that's fine. If she CHOOSES to be a single business woman, that's fine. If a man CHOOSES to be a bread winner, that's fine. If a man CHOOSES to be a stay-at-home dad, that's fine.

By your mindset feminism shouldn't fight for more men to be given custody rights in a familial case even if the mother is shitty cause "that's the MRA's job" or that men shouldn't be automatically be signed up for a draft "cause why should feminism care that women are treated differently and should not be given the same responsibilities as men".

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Feminism, particularly academic feminism, has had zero impact on my life. I've never met a woman who actively identifies as being feminist, and certainly never dated one. The closest would be the woman I'm on-off dating now (it's complicated), and I only say that because she went to a feminist art exhibition once. But she's super feminine, she takes great care with her appearance, she has worn a short dress every single time we've been on a date, she's not in any way uptight, excessively PC, or man-hating...she's nothing like the stereotype of a what a hairy-armpitted feminist would be like, or even like the women I've seen in the media who are determined to take offence at anything and everything.

My experience is that most woman don't give a shit about academic feminism, nor would they identify as feminists. Therefore, it has had no impact on my life. What has a much greater impact, in my estimation, is 'because I'm worth it' capitalism and marketing, and the entire culture that has been created around this, which is documented in the film 'The Century of the Self'.

I don't want to say that all women are prone to being dissatisfied now, because that would be an exaggeration, but it's far more likely than in the past. Because we have been sold an image of what our lives should look like, and this has been particularly targeted at women, as it's long since been worked out that they are more vulnerable to it, and make more purchasing decisions.

This trope that originated in advertising then begins to seep into the general culture, and, for example, magazines like Cosmpolitan tell women "your life should look like this, you should be happy all of the time", etc, etc.

At one time, it was normal to stick together through thick and thin, to make the best of what you've got, to mend and make do, to work through your problems. Now it's normal to believe your life should be amazing, to move from one relationship to another, even if you've got kids, constantly covet and crave possessions, experiences, travel, and lifestyle accoutrements, and to sit gawping at celebrity-focused shows, in which people are living a lifestyle that you will never be able to afford.

Another aspect of this is that most women are dissatisfied about the way that they look. Because they're told, "you should look like this", and in fact even the models that appear in such advertising don't look like that, and are touched up more than a choirboy in the Vatican (© Joan Rivers).

The male version of this is the notion that you need to look like a guy on the front cover of Men's Health, and drive a Ferrari, and be having porn star sex with hundreds of women, and have a massive cock, and be making shit tonnes of money, and be really powerful and always in control, basically what is depicted in this advert, or else you're a failure.

Those cultural tropes and messages have an almost infinitely greater impact on society than feminism, in my estimation.

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I do know that there are far more egregious uses of tax money than this in both Britain and the US.

There are also more statistically dangerous things than dying in mass shootings, yet leftists nonetheless make hay of those incidents in order to ban guns.

Thirdly, aren't RPers always saying that if a woman gets pregnant then it's completely her responsibility, and she shouldn't get any child support?

I'm not an RPer, so I wouldn't know. I think men should be compelled to furnish child support for a kid that is biologically theirs.

So, in that context, isn't it also logical that women should take the majority of responsibility for contraception, and therefore shouldn't be treated equally?

I think women are capable adults, and can make choices regarding their healthcare plans, behaviors, and contraceptives on their own, as well as finance these choices.

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[–]wub12341 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've never been in a situation where a woman has been violent towards me, and I would never be violent towards a woman, so VAWA has no impact on me, even if I was American.

I don't want to get into a big argument about the sexual harassment aspect of Title IX, which I assume you're referring to, but all I can say is that I would never put myself in the sort of situations where that would be likely to impact on me. There are laws in the UK related to rape that are stronger than in the US, but they hardly ever impact on people who don't participate in the inebriated hook-up scene, which I don't and wouldn't.

There has been one case I read of in the UK in which something truly disgraceful happened, but as a general rule if you're in what I would describe as a healthy relationship or sexual situation, then there are no issues with consent.

In terms of harassment, I can appreciate that this could be an issue in the workplace, and I do have some sympathy in this regard, although I never personally worked in a workplace in which this was likely to be an issue, and I don't have a job now, and I never intend to have a job ever again.

So I would still say that feminism has had little or no impact on my life, although I can appreciate that the ensuing climate may have had more impact on others. I don't have too much sympathy with most of those issues, but I can see that the working environment may have become potentially hazardous for men, and this is obviously wrong. I suppose that I don't give much consideration to that, as I will never be in a working environment ever again, and have always enjoyed good working relationships with women.

However, I would also say conversely that women have historically been treated poorly in the workplace, discriminated against due to gender, sexually harassed on a pretty significant scale, coerced into doing things that they wouldn't otherwise do because they were in a position of subordination, and just generally treated poorly. While I disagree with the extent to which things have changed, I would suggest that some changes were necessary, and it is probably still likely that even in this altered climate that many women still experience those things.

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Why is it a thing? Look up Tracy Thurman, who was beaten almost to death by her husband in front of police, who did not intervene because they weren’t supposed to get involved in “domestic disputes.” There were tons of cases like hers of abused women who ended up permanently disabled or disfigured or dead because of a culture that didn’t take abuse seriously when the man was married to his victim.

The Duluth model was created to retrain law enforcement and to protect women, particularly poor women, who had little recourse to escape an abusive relationship.

Does the model need to be updated in today’s society? Of course it does. It was created from a heteronormative POV, it didn’t account for abuse by women or in same sex relationships, and thanks to the prison industrial complex era, we’ve learned that just putting more men in jail isn’t always the best way to go about things.

Many cities have adjusted their intervention model to account for these things. But there is a very legit reason the Duluth model was created. And it wasn’t “because men are trash.”’

I wish for once the manosphere would surprise me and actually investigate the truth before they repeat the talking points they hear.

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Most men in the past didn't have much more autonomy than women.

But they did have meaningfully more. They weren't dependent on some hypothetical third gender to chart their course in life.

Women were.

And comfort/security beats autonomy every time.

I strongly disagree. If that were the case, the manosphere and the male awakening wouldn't exist. Most of us have material security, even if we're poor.

What we don't have, is autonomy. We're workhorses for a society that can never find it within itself to help men, but when women claim x or y is a crisis for women, you'll never witness a faster reaction - and a reaction that necessarily involves a curtailment of autonomy for men.

That's why most people remember their childhood as the most happy time of their life, even though they didn't have any autonomy back then.

They had tons of autonomy, and...
If they're THAT fondly looking back on their childhood, they've given up as adults - I have no bones suggesting that that is a person that has been defeated by themselves.

[–]Zippo-Cat0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But they did have meaningfully more. They weren't dependent on some hypothetical third gender to chart their course in life.

No, they were dependent on their OWN gender to not draft them and send them to freeze to death in Russia, for example.

Besides, as most feminists(Despite your claims you keep proving to be one) you handwave all the soft power women always had by virtue of being female in a gynocentric species.

I strongly disagree. If that were the case, the manosphere and the male awakening wouldn't exist.

"Manosphere and male awakening" doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity. And most of you are only manospherians because of the PERSONAL experiences, not because you're so "woke".

What we don't have, is autonomy.

You open this post saying men always had more autonomy than women, and now you claim you have no autonomy.

How about you unfuck all your self-contradicting beliefs and try again eh.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Besides, as most feminists(Despite your claims you keep proving to be one)...

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me a feminist. Careful now, don't adopt the way of the S.J.W, where disagreement is tantamount to evil character.

...you handwave all the soft power women always had by virtue of being female in a gynocentric species.

I don't. I just don't think they should be entitled to fewer legal protections as a result of that. I do think they should be entitled to generally higher social scrutiny, though - something which feminists also fight against.

"Manosphere and male awakening" doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity.

Yes, it does. The social justice warriors lie when they insist it's in any way POWERFUL (the only power it has is that which social justice warriors have granted it, by virtue of being insufferable pricks at way with observable reality) - but it does exist in a meaningful capacity. Men have heard of it and talk about it, and contrary to P.P.D.'s insistence to the contrary, it's not just "socially awkward internet nerds."

The internet is a normal part of life now. The people who think it's just awkward internet nerds who read this stuff are people who still think the internet is theirs. Those days have passed. Tumblr and SomethingAwful taught us that.

And most of you are only manospherians because of the PERSONAL experiences, not because you're so "woke".

Manospherians aren't woke. They think far to highly of men for that label.

You open this post saying men always had more autonomy than women, and now you claim you have no autonomy.

We're certainly losing autonomy now, in a way that has never before been experienced. Men have always been workhorses for society, but they at least had a seat at the table and commanded some respect. They don't anymore, unless they first kiss the ring of the Queen.

How about you unfuck all your self-contradicting beliefs and try again eh.

You could try arguing in good faith.

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The first wave was more that rich white women were having poor white women go to jail or die for doing things like throwing acid in people's faces, burning down houses or stepping into the path of a charging horse - so that rich white WOMEN could have "rights" that most men didn't have. The myth was that MEN had the vote, why wouldn't women, whereas if you look at facts and not feminist whining, many men couldn't vote either.

Which also glosses over the fact that aside from the "we're morally superior to men and we should be runnin thangs" meme, the other one was "they have blacks voting in other countries, if subhuman apes can vote why can't we."

God bless the whitewashing that has since happened to portray that movement as anything other than rich, entitled white women using terrorism, exploiting the working class and pushing every racist button they could find to achieve a privilege for themselves.

Because we might wonder if it's still rich white women trying to feather their own nest at everyone else's expense these days.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

When I talk about "feminism" I'm talking about present day mainstream feminism. Things change over time. They are a woman's special interest movement dedicated to persuing more power and privilage on a societal level for women by remaking laws and social mores to favor women. They also seek to protect women from any responsibility in dealing with men.

While hated of men is not the prime motive of feminism it's a common byproduct of the rhetoric they generate to push for their goals. One of the most common tactics is framing all gender differences as male privilage and female opression.

"equality" is tangental to feminism since in the past some of the things feminists pushed for to benefit women also happend to coincide with greater equality. However those days are long gone. Virtually all feminist issues in the current year don't even come close to equality even by coincidence. In fact many are pushes to increase inequality in favor of women.

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I admit I did not pay attention in the nominal difference, and I considered all things combined, but to make comparisons, and more importantly, a good understanding of a P-value, you NEED to have a percentage difference, not nominal difference.

Can I ask what software and method you used? At least in terms of R and reggression analyses I find that nominal is just as significant as p value. Also, for the percentage you got, was that 5% annually, or 5% lifetime? That makes a huge difference. And what ages (we ran 20's to 60's since social security age hits in the 60's here).

About the increase in age, look for a post not long ago in PPD. In this article it is shown that only Married men usually earn more as they age. This increase do not happen to men who never marry. The authors show pretty clearly that it is the long hours and dedication of married men who make them succeed, nothing else.

Controlled for hours worked

And if my memory does not fail me, the difference between sexes when they are single was something in the single digit differences too. Which can be just other factors into play.

Hmm, this is interesting. Once again though, lifetime vs. annual is crucial here.

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Given that you have literally said nothing about how you performed this "analysis" we have no way of finding flaws in the methodology - but, like Hansen's climate science, we are expected to just accept that you're right without even beginning to look at how you ran this "regression analysis".

Do you know what R, U.S. census data, controls and/or regression analyses are? If not then yes, I can see why you interpret those as "nothing."

Here's a handy explanation for regression: https://hbr.org/2015/11/a-refresher-on-regression-analysis

The link goes into the issue of using regression to find correlation vs causation, but note that that is not what the wage gap is associated with. With the wage gap a very specific question is at play: Do men make more than women even when potential confounders that might be screwing with the numbers are accounted for?

There have been significant flaws with every other analysis, for the record. Maybe you should publish your results, seeing as how your class has managed to do something that decades of feminist activists and statisticians could not.

No, they have run this research time and time again. All you have to do is Google "does the wage gap exist" to find tons of sources and studies which claim that it does. People just bitch about the source and claim they must be messing with the data to fit a liberal agenda. I was skeptical myself at first until I literally ran the numbers and got an answer that confirmed what the allegedly biased liberal sources say.

[–]MGTOWKapow3 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The link goes into the issue of using regression to find correlation vs causation, but note that that is not what the wage gap is associated with. With the wage gap a very specific question is at play:

When we hear "MUH WAGE GAP" it is almost always some boot-faced feminist making the case based on the correlation that it's somehow because men hate and put down women that they pay them less for the same job. This absolutely does not happen, and your classroom dickery with R can't prove it does either.

It damn well IS important that the issue is about correlation vs causation. If it's correlation because women choose to work less, choose jobs that are easier because MUH WORK LIFE BALANCE, take time off to push out babies, or, and did your R stuff pay any attention to the WORK GAP e.g.. number of hours worked by men vs women... then MUH WAGE GAP cannot be used the way it almost always is - "Women are paid less for the same work, so we need to give women a big fat raise."

Maybe the next time you guys want to fire up R you can work out why women make less than men but control most of the money in this world. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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A 20% difference in the earnings between me and women would be roughly $10,000 at the median income level of Americans, and that is widely cited (by, in my opinion, deliberately misleading women's "advocacy" organizations - to be charitable) who largely ignore things like "total hours worked" (since, obviously, men's time is worth LESS than women's time), "experience", "choice of occupation", OR the fact that women choose to have kids and take time off to raise them etc (obviously foisted upon them by the billions of evil for soldiers of the patriarchy aka "men").

You're claiming $15-19,000 from completely publicly available Census data from 2017 - and despite Google's totally algorithmic and definitely not colored search results, not one of the top results cited anything close to your assertion. Strange, if it's such a slam dunk for the socialists in academia.

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It's not a slam dunk.

And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon. Bunk. Of they could trot this out and debunk Cato and others who have mortally wounded the "Women make $0.77 for every $1.00 men make" myth, they would in a fucking instant - because that's how leftists roll.

It's just more of the same phenomenon the so-called socialists have been discussing for years.

No it isn't. It's worse. Far worse. Which would give ammunition to the idea that the poor women are obviously discriminated against by the evil chauvinist men, and therefore the ONLY path to redemption is free money, healthcare, and contraceptives for women and a Leviathan government to enforce that mandatory "equality".

You can't tell me that Planned Parenthood and N.O.W. and the New York Times and everyone in between working the liberal/leftist sphere of influence wouldn't be (isn't presently) licking their chops at such a prospect - so yes, c that sorry would've come out. It hasn't.

Because it's bunk, and they know it's bunk, and they aren't going to stake their academic repeating publishing something that might well harm their cause more than help it, especially once their political opponents examine it with a fine toothed comb, searching for weaknesses in that thesis.

There's nothing even remotely exciting or gratifying about this to them.

The cultural celebration of victimhood would suggest otherwise.

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Feminism is just code for “those forces which removed men’s power over women.” Most of which were economic but that doesn’t matter to these guys. Besides, criticizing the men in power who routinely fuck over the men without power just makes them seem like weak men. It’s easier to shift all of their hate onto feminists.

I have my own issues with feminism, which I’ve made clear many times here. But the things I see men on the sub blaming on feminism suggest either a stunning ignorance of how economics and commerce actually work or a willful dismissing of them.

For example, feminism had some role in the sexual revolution but you know who had the biggest role? Then men who invented the pill. Feminist sexual empowerment never would have caught on without a way to prevent babies women didn’t want.

Feminism had a role in getting women into the workforce in large numbers. But you know what was a far bigger factor? The shift from a manufacturing economy to a knowledge economy. Believe me, the 1% didn’t start divesting its financial interests in manufacturing for emerging knowledge based industries in the 70s and 80s because of feminist guilt.

That’s what gets on my nerves around here. I can deal with bottom barrel tradcons dudes mad they can’t find a woman who wants to quit her job and make him sandwiches anymore. It’s when they completely butcher history and the reality that its economics not genitalia that make the developed world turn.

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I have lived in those places in the past actually, among many others. It isn't so bad and most people who think so are sheltered Americans who have never even left their own state. The poor conditions are due to economic conditions due to lack of resources or a history of colonialism.

Like you might say Saudi Arabia is the most anti-feminist country in the world, but it has one of the highest incomes and standards of living. Yes, it is propped up by oil but that is my point. The economy has nothing to do with gender relations and all to do with resources.

Women try to use economic hardship as a boogeyman to threaten men into submitting to feminism. If feminism in the West was rolled back, men would still be fine - even better than today, actually. If you forced feminism down the throat of developing countries today, you would hamper them more than help them.

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I once read a funny story about a Saudi native who made a killing by letting Westerners open up businesses in his name, because they weren't allowed to due to their legal status, and keeping the lion's share of their revenue (said Westerners still made a nice buck though). The same article said that such an arrangement was pretty common.

And said Saudi native? His favorite pastime was driving cars (to kill time he chauffeured those guys who were basically his employees around), and he took great pleasure in the fact that, paraphrasing his words here - he couldn't even read yet still got to milk those guys with all their education and their degrees and their grand plans for what they were worth, because he had citizenship and they didn't.

But I guess you haven't heard of this, and anything poppy has never heard of (which is a lot.) is either not important or made up.

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You didn't practically require two incomes to be a middle class married couple.

Inflation had nothing to do with this? Consumerism had nothing to do with this?

Men weren't so disadvantaged in custody/divorce.

Right. It was women and children being left destitute. Even today men’s net worth goes up after a divorce and women’s goes down.

Open thottery wasn't as common.

Are thots fucking each other?

Single motherhood wasn't an epidemic like it is now.

And none of those men left their kids voluntarily?

Tax dollars weren't wasted on the feminine imperative (paying for the well being of women/single mothers so women could use the government to extract money from men who wouldn't otherwise pay for the choices women made).

You’re aware that open ended welfare doesn’t exist anymore and that all recipients of temporary assistance must have jobs? Right?

And again, the men who fathered these children bear no responsibility?

Also, pretty sure women pay into the social safety net too. And don’t tell me “women are net tax burdens” unless youre willing to admit 1) we live longer, drawing longer on SS and Medicare — which is almost 70% of government spending (as opposed to the less that 10% that goes to temp assistance for single parents), and 2) you can’t argue there’s no wage gap and then turn around and claim men pay more in taxes (we have a progressive tax system here in case that escaped you).

So basically you’re another manospherian who wants 1) to ignore economic realities and 2) to absolve men of all responsibility in problems they were 50% responsible for creating.

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What you are seeing is generational karma in action.

I believe you're suffering from the just world fallacy. There's no cosmic arbiter. Shit just happens. And there are many American men who feel the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of women, and that it's time to swing it back the other way.

If and when enough men feel that way, we have an election, and poof

Goodbye feminism. Or parts of it. Like how Trump didn't lose his election despite the release of his decidedly anti-feminist recording just weeks before the election.

I'm no psychic but that seems like maybe it's a substantial development in terms of predicting what is to come. And it's not just America, but all over the democratic west.

Go to those foreign countries and get you an obedient wife, if thats what you want to do.

Don't shoot the messenger kiddo

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just wanna say that one reason why so many women don't know how to cook and housekeep is because of our introduction into the workforce and education... girls are preoccupied with studying from 7 - 21 so we don't have time to learn to cook proper food, you know, the kind our mothers and their mothers spent literally hours in the kitchen preparing, and when we leave education and go into the workforce, even if we get married we have to work as well (unless the man is earning a high income)...i think these two things - education and work -- deter women from fulfilling the traditional gender role.

Im a guy, I can cook. I went through the same path, studying and also being in the army, yet somehow I learnt to cook.

In a relationship, I expect a woman to be able to cook, not because of gender roles, but its called taking an equal responsibility. Sometimes I cook, sometimes she cooks.

I also clean my apartment and don't live like a pig. In this day and age, both people normally work. SO things like cooking and cleaning need to be shared.

But saying you had to study is not an excuse for not being able to cook (like how do you eat, do you just order takeout every night). Sorry thats just a lame ass excuse.

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huh?

About what feels natural to me:

- The idea of working for myself

- The idea of pushing women to be educated

- The idea of equal opportunities (though, I don't think it's being handled properly)

- The idea of having rights to my own body - abortion etc

How does this feel natural to me?

The women in my family are all very educated, or aim to be educated within their own means

My mum is the breadwinner in my family. So were my grandmothers, though one of my granddads was an engineer

My aunts push for me to be more independent, and whether they are married, divorced, or have had multiple marriages - they all seem to be happy with life

However, this is probably due to specific family history

However, the male-worship thing I mentioned is more about the media's push about how "women can do it too". Like... yes. If they want to, they can. But it's just weird to me. Especially when there's scholars out there researching about what's written on children's clothing or how gendered children's toys are. Giving little girls car toys isn't going to suddenly make them scientists. They can play with their dolls and become scientists when theyre older

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I'd say both Wollestonecraft and De Beauvoir are crazy, in the sense that they don't appreciate the physical limitations of reality. I don't have "The Second Sex" handy, but doesn't Simone say that women's bodies are naturally hysteric and they need to be obliged to be free? Wollestonecraft, a first-wave feminist, attempted to emulate men, and even criticized men who attempted to emulate women, which won her respect in her lifetime until after her death it was revealed how promiscuous she was.

The one constant in all feminist theory is a distrust for physical reality, up to (and most consistently I might add) implying that heterosexual sex is essentially patriarchal. All feminism is technophilic, and just look at Donna Harroway's pronouncement of the end of the era of bio-power and the cyborg thesis (that we are melding with machines). Since only feminism can grant women more power relative to men than what they already get through traditional femininity insofar as women seek power they are crazy. Not necessarily a bad thing to be crazy on a small-scale, but as Freud pointed out, the horrors of modernity are just recurrent human behaviors amplified by technology. Men can be said to be crazy as well insofar as they latch onto any ideology of "progress", whether this be through capitalism, communism or fascism.

Do I sound crazy?

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But if you think about the last few verses...

From verse 3 - especially the "robots to be our slaves" bit - On the third we get green and blue for pie On the fourth we send rockets to the sky On the fifth make the beasts and submarines On the sixth man prepares his final dream: In our image, let's make robots for our slaves Imagine all the time that we can save Computers, machines, the silicon dream Seventh he retired from the scene And he said: Behold what I have done I've made a better world for everyone Nobody laugh, nobody cry World without end, forever and ever Amen (amen), amen (amen), amen (amen) On the eighth day machine just got upset A problem man had never seen as yet No time for flight, a blinding light And nothing but a void, forever night He said: Behold what man has done There's not a world for anyone Nobody laughed, nobody cried World's at an end, everyone has died Forever amen (amen), amen (amen), amen (amen) He said: Behold what man has done There's not a world for anyone Nobody laughed, nobody cried World's at an end, everyone has died Forever amen (amen), amen (amen), amen (amen)

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[–]rus9384Ambitious Nihilist0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

in the sense that they don't appreciate the physical limitations of reality

How do they don't appreciate them?

Wollestonecraft, a first-wave feminist

She was not a first-wave feminist, because she lived for more than a century before that. She was one of the first prominent feminists ever.

attempted to emulate men

How so? She even had two children (but both died).

until after her death it was revealed how promiscuous she was.

Damn, only an idiot would think that a woman who spreads the idea of free love does not spread her legs as well. Apparently she was in an open marriage (her husband was an anarchist and anarchists tend to support free love too).

heterosexual sex is essentially patriarchal

It's not the narrative of all feminists. There were sex positive feminists, who expressed support for porn, prostitution, etc.

(that we are melding with machines)

But we do, there are so many gadgets that feel almost essential today. It's not feminism.

Men can be said to be crazy as well insofar as they latch onto any ideology of "progress", whether this be through capitalism, communism.

But not all capitalists and communists are crazy.

[–]ZoroasterFlame0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

Wollestonecraft wanted women to be stronger and braver, and more individualistic in the way men are. Fine, she wasn't "first-wave", but this is a property she also shares with Harriet Taylor Mill, who criticized Romanticism's feminizing effect on society (and the incredibly shitty literature that accompanied it).

One thing is that Wollstonecraft did her business for herself, it's another thing for her to try to "normalize" her behavior. That's what's crazy. She had her own, different, personality, sure, but to think all women should be like her is a denial of physical reality. Just take a gander at how many women are uncomfortable with casual sex to get a clue.

What I was saying is that Harroway was the first person to just say straight up, "we're becoming cyborgs and I'm totally cool with this", where Heidegger thought this was the destruction of the human through his alienation from the openness of being. Like I said, the one constant of all feminism is the denial of physical reality. And at least since the second wave, it could be said that they prefer abstract possibilities to cold hard truths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtATDlUSIxI&t=1s

Agreed that not all capitalists and communists are crazy, insofar as they realize that any attempt at changing the world is more likely to make it worse than better (i.e. they are pessimists) they are not crazy. I believe Marx's predictions will be proven right the day when there is nothing more conservative than being a communist, to halt relentless capitalist "progress".

[–]rus9384Ambitious Nihilist0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

think all women should be like her

Then red knights also are crazy. They want all guys to be red pilled.

But I am guessing she did not want all women to be exactly like her. If I want all humans on the Earth to not be mentally ill, am I crazy?

Just take a gander at how many women are uncomfortable with casual sex to get a clue.

She argued for acceptability of it, not to make it universal. And look, after sexual revolution there really are more women like her, like... that works to the degree.

we're becoming cyborgs and I'm totally cool with this

Sounds as a transhumanist, to be honest. It's not equal with feminism. Transhumanism does not deny physical reality. It wants to change it. And maybe to seemingly impossible degree.

any attempt at changing the world is more likely to make it worse than better

We are changing the world by mere breathing, so, yeah, it's just out of all bad things we choose those that are less bad.

Marx's predictions will be proven right the day when there is

no human labor. Of course, if we survive till then and happen to make AI's work for us, not just a few currently rich humans.

[–]ZoroasterFlame0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

We are changing the world by mere breathing, so, yeah, it's just out of all bad things we choose those that are less bad

Merely breathing is cyclical, it depends on a self-sustaining system, so I don't think it's like establishing a 5 year plan for the industrialization of Russia, or getting the latest new capitalist happy toy to sell. Change happens, of course that's inevitable, but it's arrogant to want to protagonize it, it takes a manipulative person, a believer in instrumental reason, to do that. It is the place of the human to adapt to change, and that's why the openness of the human to pure being is important. Without it we are just robots programmed to do what the texts we consume tell us to.

All attempts to change reality are denials of reality. But the world, and life, isn't a game. It is arrogant to want to manipulate it, and all the more so the more it strikes at our very core (our bodies and minds), which doesn't mean that we shouldn't, just that we should take it seriously, and with caution. We as political agents should emphasize the preeminence of thought over action.

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The ones who influence laws and policies yes. They may not be the majority, but they are the ones who are pushing a sexist narrative that the rest are following.

The problem is not the coffee shop feminists who are feminist in name. These women still believe they're fighting the good fight but still desire (top) men and will submit to Chad.

The problem is when universities have feminists pushing out a false narrative about men, rape or men seeking equality. Go look at how feminists threatened people who wanted to watch the Red Pill movie.

So by all means, lean on the No True Scotsman fallacy. But it's about as useful as telling victims of the Catholic Church that 'not all priests are like that'. As true as it is, would you leave your kid alone with members of an institution who have a history of abuse and covering it up?

Likewise, should men just forgive the BS that is the Duluth model and jailtime if he does not or cannot pay money for a child he didn't choose to have?

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yes she acknowledged there were differences but she did argue it was due to environment, that's why she thought they could be balanced out through environmental methods, and education counts as an environmental method of achieving this. she did want women and men to be equal in society though; she wanted women in politics, education and she also advocated women to become physically fit. these were all positions dominated by men. you can argue that these are all objectively good things for women to strive for, but Wollstonecraft's entire campaign was clearly to get women to become more like men. that's basically the entire goal of feminism. note how it's never been "we need to get more men into nursing and teaching" it's always "we need to get more women into STEM subjects". that's what it has always been about i'm afraid. She never advocated for men to become better primary caregivers to their children, or to cook or to housekeep. she wanted women to get into politics and education like men did.

[–]rus9384Ambitious Nihilist0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

she wanted women in politics

Well, yes, just like black people in the US wanted black people in politics. This is obvious?

education

Did you see her arguments? It's that women actually are children's educators and also that she was tired of stupid women around her.

she also advocated women to become physically fit.

She still acknowledged women will never be as strong. She also did not advocate men to be thinmen (to cause equality). Actually, she'd be the one who told women to learn martial arts instead of telling shit like it's only men's responsibility to not rape and women ought nothing to do.

to get women to become more like men

To get men's positive aspects, it's not that bad. What's bad to allow women who want to be like men to be like men?

we need to get more men into nursing and teaching

Need? I guess she did not see men who were into that. Show me at least one work written by a man who argued for pushing men into nursing and teaching. But she was for equal rights, it presupposed men also were allowed to occupy women's workplaces. (Ah, yeah, forgot that men probably already were allowed to do that)

that's what it has always been about i'm afraid.

The oldest texts containing feminist ideas I know of are those devoted to the ancient goddess Inanna. I think it always was like that and I guess the whole femininity was to a great degree cultural. Some differences are genetical, sure. Only fools argue with it.

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Title	Off Topic Thread: Feminism (11 May 2019)
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	9
Comments	491
Date	May 11, 2019 6:08 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/bnf1v1/off_topic_thread_feminism_11_may_2019/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/off-topic-thread-feminism-11-may-2019.255815 https://theredarchive.com/post/255815

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