The Social Etiquette of Paying for Dates

KerPop42 · 2018-10-09T13:24:27+00:00

Yeah, that's more or less the status quo where I grew up. The person who initiates pays for the date. If you're regularly going out, sharing the cost 50/50 is considered polite.

CainPrice · 2018-10-09T14:08:41+00:00

This isn't co-workers grabbing lunch together. It's a date. The two people involved are screening each other for sexual and romantic compatibility.

The general courtesy in dating is that if a guy asks a woman out on a date, casual or serious, regardless of how he worded the question, then the woman is going to a place she wouldn't have gone and incurring an expense she wouldn't have incurred if it weren't for him inviting her out.

If a guy doesn't offer to pay for the date, that is his way of indirectly sending the message "I'm not feeling it and don't want to see you again", without saying it out loud. If that's how the guy feels, that's fine. But if a guy doesn't offer to pay, he shouldn't be surprised if the woman assumes he's not into her and doesn't want a second date and doesn't go home with him. That's the understood social message when the guy doesn't offer to pay.

Now obviously, strong-willed women can insist on paying their way. However, when a woman insists on paying her half of the check, that's also sending an unspoken social message: "I'm not feeling it, didn't have a good time, and don't want to see you again. You're not getting lucky tonight and you're not getting a second date, but I'm not a total bitch and I'm at least going to pay for my dinner instead of using you for free food."

The guy paying for the date is a prerequisite to getting lucky and getting another date. At least in the majority of cases. That's the social norm. Sure, we can debate all day long about how the social norm isn't fair to guys, but it's still the social norm. Demonstrating a lack of social skills and a lack of knowledge of social norms is how many otherwise dateable guys kill their chances.

BirdManBrrrr · 2018-10-09T14:21:21+00:00

You did God's work in that other thread, to no avail unfortunately.

This has been simple to me: The dude should always grab the check the first few dates. Period.

but I feel like there should be a polite little back and forth over the check, it’s part of the flirting, the banter, it’s a way to feel out how the other person thinks the evening is going.

100%. If the girl wants to protest and pay, or pay half, have a fun flirty conversation briefly then settle the check to your liking. Simple, but always start with assuming you're going to take care of it and go from there. Two adults who like each other can work it out reasonably.

CatchPhraze · 2018-10-09T13:39:10+00:00

My dating rule is simple: If he doesn't offer, don't give him a second date. If she doesn't say "No, lets split" or "I got you next time." Don't date her.

Your first date is a time to put your best foot forward as either gender. I'm not saying fight over it, if he goes "No, I insist" say thank you and if your interested in a second date say "Sure, I'll get it next time" or something. Don't begrudge having to pay for your half of the meal if he takes you up on the offer.

Men, if a woman doesn't offer to at least split the bill, she's probably not great at sharing other responsibilities either, politely pay for the date, and don't make plans for another one.

Thats the advice i think is the most fair to all parties, it's a bit petty and a little like a hidden test, but those things happen in life. YMMV.

GridReXX · 2018-10-09T13:39:11+00:00

I think there definitely is a code of etiquette, but it depends on a lot of ifs that may or may not apply. If the individuals don't know each other well, and if the guy asks out the girl, and if the guy picks the location... Yes he should offer to pay. Because you never really know someone's financial situation, and what he considers to be a casual dining place may be out of her usual price range, and in the US people get really uptight about talking finances... So it could lead to an uncomfortable situation if (and again, there a decent number of ifs there), there's some sort of miscommunication there.

kandyapplez · 2018-10-09T15:30:55+00:00

a question for the girls here: how many dates have you been on where the guy actually seemed to expect you to pay for your half? i've been dating for a decade and cannot think of a single first date where the guy even implied splitting the bill. i feel like this is one of those "internet conversations" that doesn't translate to real life.

hyperrreal · 2018-10-09T16:56:46+00:00

Maybe that makes me a bad feminist, but even if I’m entirely determined not to let a guy pay for me, I think there’s something socially off about him not even offering.

It's not even entirely about feminism/gender though.

Unless both people are broke students or something, there's a social convention that it's polite for both people to offer to pay for the whole dinner. And then from there, you either agree to split it, or one person agrees to let the person pick up the check just this once.

Straight up dispensing with the "who picks up the check" ritual is not good manners.

Edit: want to clarify that I'm referring to the general etiquette of going out to dinner, not just a date.

Electra_Cute · 2018-10-09T13:48:00+00:00

This has to do with the subjects social expectations. For example: Sally grew up in a culture where the person who asked to go on the date always pays. Riley grew up in a culture where they always split the bill. If Sally and Riley go on a date, it is obviously going to create an issue at the end of the date. It sounds like the way you were raised, you think that these words: “I’d like to take you out to dinner tonight.” your expectation would be for him to pay, maybe the way he was raised people split the bill. "Social norms" are not universal.

Whodunnit88 · 2018-10-09T13:29:31+00:00

I have a couple thoughts on this.

First of all a first date is like a test drive. You don't tend to perform a test drive by shelling out money to rent a car all week. You tend to hit up a showroom and drive one around for an hour to get a feel for it. Because after all you may very well not commit to buying that car, so you don't wanna drop money just to see if it's compatible with you.

So if I'm going out with a girl for the first time I don't go to an expensive restaurant I go to get coffee or something. I'll happily pay for both our coffees if that's what ends up happening, no big deal. But I'm not gonna shell out real money on a fancy dinner for a first date.

Second, when I do have actual dates in restaurants, I always split the bill 50/50. I start off assuming this will happen by default. I've never had a woman argue with me because of this at all. It's just how it is.

Full disclosure some of this could be due to simple culture differences between the US and UK. We don't really do "dates" as a whole big formal thing here to begin with. But when I go out to dinner or a movie or whatever with a girl we split the cost and it's no problem. When it's just going out for the first time I don't go anywhere expensive in the first place.

reluctantly_red · 2018-10-09T14:51:08+00:00

This all makes perfect sense. I always offer to pay for the first date (its a cost of doing business). If she doesn't offer to pay half or at least seem grateful there won't be a second date. I don't have any more time for entitled women.

If she gets out a calculator to figure out exactly how much she owes there also won't be a second date.

GridReXX · 2018-10-09T14:57:51+00:00

When the poster you were debating said the waitress and his date waited for him to offer I just thought of this.

My coworker suggested we go to lunch to get to know each other more. She paid. I asked our CRO to lunch and was about to pay for us both, but he paid (he honestly makes way more than me he should lol). But the point is I was ready to pay for us both since the lunch was my idea.

This guy I’m sort of dating came over for a movie night I suggested. I hadn’t gone grocery shopping for the week yet so I didn’t cook. I ordered us Uber Eats (though I appreciate he offered to pay). Why did I pay? Because it was my movie night suggestion.

I’m a firm believer that if a guy doesn’t offer and insist on paying for the first date, he’s not that into me. CMV.

solorathain · 2018-10-10T02:37:40+00:00

I agree. If a woman doesn't at least offer to suck my dick on the first date, I assume there must be something socially off about her.

[deleted] · 2018-10-09T13:55:49+00:00

I think there’s something socially off if he doesn’t at least offer to pay, assuming the date was his idea

Which is de facto the guy pays.

I'm not paying for shit. If you want free food delete my number and try some okcupid loser

Also this is why dinner is an awful first date

whichbladeN · 2018-10-09T13:15:55+00:00

I let my boyfriend pay 80% of the time.

But that's because I don't have an income.

Mr_Smoogs · 2018-10-09T13:24:14+00:00

So you don't expect him to pay, but you expect him to offer to pay?

"I don't expect you to provide for me, but at least offer to do it" is half way to equality at least. Slight progress lol

That being said, I typically didn't even let the check hit the table. Would give the server my card before they even dropped the check. No negotiation - no offer. Didn't even allow her to offer to split the check because it was typically a disingenuous offer anyway. "Yeah, I'll split the bill with you but I'll secretly hold it against you and respect you less" - this is not a win for me. I'd rather treat her like a child and act like she couldn't possibly take care of the bill herself.

Barely-moral · 2018-10-09T13:32:48+00:00

Social norms are an important part of human interaction. Cofussion in those situations is more than understandable.

Now... about the principle behind it. If the principle of equality is something important to me, then it should prevail over the social norm. If I can't make that principle prevail over the social norm and stop worrying about the fact that it doesn't fit the social norm then that is hypocrisy on my part.

dicklord_airplane · 2018-10-09T17:35:11+00:00

This is just a custom that's different everywhere you go in the world. I live in denver now, and everybody splits bills. Its normal and nobody takes offense at it. It's a non-issue and we don't get why girls and boys from other regions get so up in arms about expecting people to pay for you. We don't play these mind games with unspoken rules.

I grew up in texas, and people have a much more traditional view. They ascribe so much meaning to how much money men spend on women. No thanks, i'll stick with less materialistic women.

In summary, i disagree. Its a silly thing to fuss about. People from different backgrounds have different customs, thats all. Its best to talk about these thinga instead of just rejecting a second date based on imaginary perceived slights.

whitetrashcarl · 2018-10-09T17:42:59+00:00

I also think there’s a strong regional component here

Informal surveying has shown me that men in the south and Midwest expect to pay, and that men on the coasts generally expect to split

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larrythetomato · 2018-10-09T13:16:55+00:00

I think there’s something socially off if he doesn’t at least offer to pay, assuming the date was his idea.

The social convention is: women offer to pay and the man should pay on the first date. Anything else is 'antisocial' in a light sense.

Although in today's modern age, there should be a couple of casual meetups like coffee, a walk and maybe anal before something serious like a first date. (I jest)

killallthenarcs · 2018-10-09T14:30:24+00:00

Well yes. Due to my tendency to LTRs and a generally low key lifestyle in my youth involving lots of casual freeform social contact I've had two first dates that were worthy of the name. The first was my idea, we went on a guided tour of a local attraction that was a short term offer... it cost just a few bucks (less than a cup of good coffee) and I brought out my money to pay but he was earning about five times my income and he said no he'd get it and so I let him pay. Much fun and little expense was had. The second was the guy's idea, we went out together and got all-you-can eat plates at the local chinese food hall, and he paid. We ate till we felt so full we just wanted to sleep. Neither of these dates was burdensome for the person doing the asking to pay for.

If someone is just going to decide to request a comparative stranger's company at a fancy eatery where the steak is $40, the dessert is $20, the wine is $10 a glass, then the rules of etiquette are quite reasonable in dictating that the asker is going to need to offer to pay despite the expense. That's because if the person who asks for that sort of thing isn't expected to pay, then the whole scenario can put the person who is being asked out in a really awkward situation... of not wanting to reject someone they think has potential but also not wanting to explain to what is after all a comparative stranger who wants something from them that going out this week is a financial no-no.

The answer to it all for those who detest paying is so simple... stop approaching dating with the expectation that you can both impress someone with your wealth via an expensive date AND expect the person you ask out to carry half of that load. Start asking people out on dates you've got no problem with carrying the expense of. Having trouble thinking of dates of that nature? Ask friends and family for suggestions.

Yes there will always be people, especially rich men, who like to apply a little more money to their SMP/RMP efforts in hopes of making themselves more impressive. And... if you're of average means you're always going to fail to outspend them. They will outspend you on dates, on clothes, on baldness treatments. Always. There is literally nothing they will not outspend you on. And they almost invariably end up with a woman who likes to be paid for so much that she has built her entire life around it. If you aren't happy with forking out $100 when the steakhouse was your idea, you don't want women like that. You don't want to be stuck 20 years later with a SAHW who insists on changing out the granite countertops at your expense when the fashion changes. The system has worked, someone like Trump marries that woman instead.

whitetrashcarl · 2018-10-09T17:23:55+00:00

I always do just drinks for a first date, and I either split the tab or alternate rounds

It’s fair , it’s not a big commitment, I also don’t want to set a tone of “I’m gonna pay for your company”

blackedoutfast · 2018-10-09T18:35:17+00:00

if there's already a relationship established it usually just works out: "no, i got this, you paid for ____ last time" or "you want another drink? you paid for the last round so i'll pay for these" or whatever.

if there isn't a relationship established, why the fuck are you taking some random hoe out on a fancy dinner date? she's probably just fishing for a free meal from a beta sucker. it's 2018 not 1954.

jonascf · 2018-10-09T20:34:46+00:00

I only do coffee dates and I mostly pay for just me, and that's actually the social norm here so I don't have to worry. If I would insist on paying for us both I would probably come off as very old fashioned and I imagine that's the case even if the date takes place in a restaurant.

Smithersink · 2018-10-10T00:58:28+00:00

I think you're totally right, a guy should at least offer to pay if he asked the girl out--especially with language like "I'd like to take you out," it's pretty much implied he's paying. I don't think it's a feminist issue at all: I think whoever asks the other out should offer to pay for both, whether it's a guy or a girl. If more often guys ask girls out, they should be the ones paying (or at least offering to pay) for dates. After the first date, I think it should be separate checks or split 50/50. I'm not a "feminist" (though I'm not a conservative either), and I think it's less about principles, and more about just politeness, which is important in social interaction.

cxj · 2018-10-10T02:12:20+00:00

There is no consistent established etiquette on this and everyone will be confused and possibly even hurt over this nonsense. The bigger picture is that this really even matters because middle class buying power is waning.

Also, how does everyone else not have a standard of doing extremely cheap dates like coffee or hiking or walking around downtown ? Like JFC why expensive restaurants right off the bat

JUST SAY NO

Nodoxxintoxin · 2018-10-10T02:28:25+00:00

I’ve been out of the game for more years than half of the people here have been alive, but when I insisted on paying half on a first date, that was your first clue you were probably going to end up in the friend zone.

My husband and I had been friends for many years, he was pretty broke and I was making really good money. He hung out around my house a few times and I cooked him dinner, but when we actually went out on “a date”, he insisted on paying and I let him. The “date” kind of defined the direction of our relationship from friendship to romantic.

VDKay · 2018-10-10T19:18:08+00:00

Unless there are strong objections, every time I go out with a girl (just the 2 of us, not as a group), I pay the bill. Period. No matter if it is a date or a friend, or if it is the first or the tenth time. I can't help it. I don't care. I am not rich or something. This is how I have been raised. Think whatever you want about me. Personally, I believe that it also looks distasteful to slit the bill especially when a man and a woman go out (I blame it on the Mediterranean culture). I do have often playfully suggested that the girl pays me back in some other way such as a dinner at her place, or bake something for me, or to help me out with some stuff that she is an expert at, etc. and most of the times the results were favorable. Of course, first dates are usually coffee or casual drink so, worst case, I spend like 10-15$ and that's all. I reserve fancy romantic seafood places for high quality girls who have shown to reciprocate in similar value.

However, having said that, I really appreciate if a girl does NOT take for granted that I am paying, such as when she suggests or softly insists to split the bill or when she takes out her wallet for example. This is usually a strong indication for a second date.

p.s. Saying "I'd like to take you out for dinner/drinks/movies/...", AUTOMATICALLY means that this person pays for both, no matter the setting (romantic, business, family, etc.)

SpaceWhiskey · 2018-10-09T13:50:55+00:00

"Assuming the date was his idea" the date is ALWAYS his idea. Women will twiddle their thumbs until they are asked out

lucky_beast · 2018-10-09T19:28:21+00:00

If she needs me to buy her time she's worse than a literal whore. At least a whore will give me my money's worth. First dates for me are always something free, if she balks at that it's a perfect sign we weren't compatible anyways.

The whole idea of social etiquette for who pays is bullshit. There are few things fouler than a woman who thinks she's my equal in all ways until the bill comes and then she's just an old fashioned girl. Not old fashioned enough that she hasn't fucked fifty guys, or is obedient to men, or feels a woman should be domestic, but just old fashioned enough she needs a man to pay her bills lol

One reason a lot of the women I've dated are younger than me is younger women seem to feel much less entitled to me spending money on them. Older women despite being (slightly) less attractive seem to think their presence is worth money. Hard pass.

Mr_White119811 · 2018-10-09T14:06:46+00:00

Ive no issue paying for a first drink on a date.

Granted I dont do the whole "Lets meet up for a date", I just do "Fancy meeting for a drink?".

Its less pressure for a start than a date which has so many preconceived notions as to its meaning.

Also, meeting for a drink, I will happily pay for first drink. If the woman I date just expects me to buy drink after drink, Im going to create a reason for leaving. Never really had to do this. Normally the woman goes, "Im having fun, fancy another drink". The rounds then continue like this.

I dont buy into that whole taking a woman to fancy restaurant for a first date. I want to get to know them, not just spend money on them. Also I can date more this way. If a drink goes nowhere, so what?

Then mostly when it comes to second or third dates, the cost is normally split. So between us, we can go somewhere more up market.

And Ive had dates, pre-book cinema tickets and stuff. Will I re-imburse them, no. But if they get the cinema ticket, I have no issue getting some drinks or some food.

Works for me.

Just do what works, if it dosn't work, do something else.

Whodunnit88 · 2018-10-09T17:07:53+00:00

With more and more women getting high paying jobs doesn't this policy of men offering to pay for the first dates seem kind of backwards?

Anyway it's all moot because women make the dating rules.

Cho_Assmilk · 2018-10-09T18:13:38+00:00

What about "We should grab dinner and a couple drinks. What's up Thursday?" ?

SpaceWhiskey · 2018-10-09T22:11:01+00:00

Don't young women make more money than young men nowadays? Why do women still act as if the man should take care of them?

ifeelfuckingterrible · 2018-10-09T23:09:18+00:00

Well yeah, if a guy invites you out to dinner, I guess you'd expect him to pay, because only a desperate chump would ever do that in the first place LOL.

But if a guy suggest you two meet up for drinks as a first date, I think it's a bit ridiculous for you to expect him to buy you a drink. Like I can't even imagine the audacity one would have to ask someone you just met to buy you a drink, I'd probably walk away right then and there.

RockinSocksII · 2018-10-10T01:26:28+00:00

I pay my half. Otherwise, there are a lot of guys that feel paying entitles them to sex.

theambivalentrooster · 2018-10-09T20:10:00+00:00

How much are people paying for first date dinners? Are autisto beta dorks dropping $200 on first date meals or something?

What ever happened to getting coffee or lunch? If you're dropping hundreds weekly or every couple weeks on failed first dates you need to chill out and evaluate why girls are willing to go on one date with you but not a second.

I get that, say, taking a girl out to dinner in Manhattan is an expensive proposition (although there are a million cheap eat options in NYC) but taking a girl to Olive Garden in a flyover state shouldn't break your bank. And somehow poor people still date.

Okay, I get it, feminism said that women are equal but why do the stupid fat cunts want MEN to pay for their meals? Well, maybe don't date stupid fat cunts then? Find out if they are stupid fat cunts before you offer to take them to dinner? Or date a traditional woman? But then you're still mad because she expects you to pay also? So offer to go dutch, cheapskate, before the date. Get that pussy nice and dry with your poverty and fear of being used for a free meal.

Title	The Social Etiquette of Paying for Dates
Author	SpaceWhiskey
Upvotes	10
Comments	184
Date	October 9, 2018 1:11 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9mp0hq/the_social_etiquette_of_paying_for_dates/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-social-etiquette-of-paying-for-dates.259566 https://theredarchive.com/post/259566

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