Question for married/almost married Bloopers: Are we out of touch?

Most romantic relationships begin outside of the internet. They meet through friends, mostly. At their workplace, college, high school, and activities shared by both sexes like hiking etc.

i knew a guy in college who was 5'2'' overweight and had a redneck face, he wasn't rich, nor was he particularly smooth, pretty shy too. He was dating a thin, pretty girl. You people with your loser mentality get yourselves out of the game. You don't want to get laid. If you actually did you lot would leave that passivity behind.

Get tattoos. Do drugs. Go to jail. Beat a guy up. Drive a birt dike. Get scars. Woemn are attracted to masculinity, and masculinity is not just MUH MUSCLES and height. if that was so skinny guys would never get laid lol

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[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Men can be sexually objectified too.

Indeed, but in the case of rape, either only one participant is being sexually objectified, or neither, if the rapist is not motivated by overwhelming lust (which seems to account for most cases of rape). By your own reasoning, that would make rape more valuable than a one night stand.

being pumped and dumped can definitely have a negative impact upon somebody's mental health

Certainly, equating all non-commital sex with one specific situation is disingenuous. What reason do you have to believe that all or most one night stands happen when a woman expects commitment and fails to receive it?

Also, I think it's wrong to even frame pumping and dumping as an issue of sex. Sex has nothing to do with the fact that a woman is expecting and/or demanding commitment from someone who is not interested in a relationship with her. And if the denial of such commitment affects her mental health, then it's a mental problem, not something indicative of any objective "value" of sex. A woman with such issues doesn't need to reexamine the value of sex - she needs to reexamine her expectations.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If rape isn't sex, then why is it classified as sex crime and people who commit it as sex offenders?

the inherent act of that much closeness with another individual does entail some expectations

It absolutely does. Any sexual connection has an emotional component and can grow into an emotional connection in its own right. But the issue with women you're referencing still is unrelated to sex. First, it's unhealthy to have such strong expectations in any context. There is no situation in which it is in any way healthy, beneficial or unavoidable, to expect something you're not in control of, to turn out a certain way, to the point where its failure to do so adversely affects your mental health.

And even the healthiness of such expectations aside, those are still not expectations directed at sex - they are expectations directed at the sexual partner. The woman in your hypothetical situation isn't expecting the man to commit because they slept together. She's expecting him to commit because she wants him to, because she is that strongly attracted to him. If you refuse to divorce his value to her from the inherent value of sex, would you then go on to say that the value of any sexual act is inherently a function of the objective attractiveness of the man taking part in it? Because that's a pretty fucked up view if so. I'm sure you didn't think it through that deeply, but now that we've done it together, can you formulate your view?

[–]wtknight1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If rape isn't sex, then why is it classified as sex crime and people who commit it as sex offenders?

The motivation is different. It's about power and violation, not about mutual participation, which is what I consider actual sex to be.

There is no situation in which it is in any way healthy, beneficial or unavoidable, to expect something you're not in control of, to turn out a certain way, to the point where its failure to do so adversely affects your mental health.

Every situation is like this. If I walk down the street of my well-to-do neighborhood and I am robbed, it is certainly going to affect my mental health. I will feel victimized and will probably become anxious the next time I do it again. On the other hand, it's much unhealthier to constantly feel like you cannot trust anybody or any situation.

I'm sure you didn't think it through that deeply, but now that we've done it together, can you formulate your view?

The value of it is based upon their mutual emotional attraction to each other. If one or both parties are not emotionally attracted to the other, then it cheapens the sexual act in my opinion.

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In my analogy above, do I disrespect the lawyer if I only use him for his services without getting to know him as a person?

No. Because there is no higher form of conducting legal services. Nobody expects you to become friends with your lawyer. On the other hand, in the United States you do disrespect a member of wait staff if you do not provide at least a non-required 15% gratuity, which is why this is such a hugely debated topic everywhere.

What do you think about slutty women who just fuck men without "respecting" them, whatever that's meant to entail in this context?

I think that it's a form of disrespect too, especially if the man is expecting more. When both parties are agreed upon that it's meaningless sex, though, I don't think it's inherently hurtful to either of them, but I do think it tends to show a certain view of the opposite gender when one makes a habit just selfishly using them for one's own pleasure rather than attempting to get to know them as people.

And finally, you know shit is going crazy when I say this, but I also agree with /u/Nemobeenfound's question: how is FWB casual sex any different?

Because you're at least friends through the process. You care about each other and each other's pleasure, even if you don't want things to become more serious. Casual sex without feelings is just inherently exploitative of the other person, but, as I said, if it's agreed upon by both parties beforehand then I don't consider it hurtful, but rather just a red flag of how another person psychologically perceives concepts such as romance and the opposite gender.

[–]GroovyEFS 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Because there is no higher form of conducting legal services.

What makes something a "higher form" or a "lower form"? By what metric do you make such moral judgements?

On the other hand, in the United States you do disrespect a member of wait staff if you do not provide at least a non-required 15% gratuity, which is why this is such a hugely debated topic everywhere.

What's that gotta do with objectification though? This is just because their employer isn't paying them properly. If you only care about someone for their professional abilities you're still "using" them so to speak.

When both parties are agreed upon that it's meaningless sex, though, I don't think it's inherently hurtful to either of them

But that is exactly how the majority of ONS go. You meet in a casual environment like a bar or a club where no one is exactly looking for a life partner and the mutual understanding is that it's casual.

I do think it tends to show a certain view of the opposite gender when one makes a habit just selfishly using them for one's own pleasure rather than attempting to get to know them as people.

Why?

Let's say I fucked a random woman last night, then go back to my normal day job where I interact with women on a professional basis daily. How has one experience impacted the other? Humans have the ability to compartmentalise.

I also think this very idea is rooted in the faulty puritan premise that sex is inherently disrespectful. Why do you think having casual sex with someone leads to degrading their entire gender? Is sex really that much of a mortal sin in your eyes?

Finally, why do you think it makes a difference if it's a ONS or LTR? Why do you think fucking your girlfriend doesn't degrade women, but fucking a ONS does?

What's so special about "knowing someone as a person" that it apparently cancels out the destructive nature of sex?

Because you're at least friends through the process.

See questions above.

Casual sex without feelings is just inherently exploitative of the other person, but, as I said, if it's agreed upon by both parties beforehand then I don't consider it hurtful

You're contradicting yourself big time here. How can it be inherently exploitative if it's often a mutually agreed upon arrangement?

just a red flag of how another person psychologically perceives concepts such as romance and the opposite gender.

This I think is fair. If you only want sex in an LTR, and you consider someone having ONS as a red flag for a relationship because it doesn't gel with your view of sex, that's 100% understandable.

But I think your whole view of sex here is extremely puritan and nonsensical and contradictory.

[–]wtknight1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What makes something a "higher form" or a "lower form"? By what metric do you make such moral judgements?

I admit that it's a feelings thing. Generally in my mind when you interact with someone you want to treat them as "humanly" as reasonable. I'm not going to make friends with my lawyer because it's not reasonable that we make friends with every person who we interact with in real life, but I'm going to treat him considerately and pay him or her in a timely manner. If I go to a restaurant in the U.S, I'm going to treat the wait staff well tip them well if they do a satisfactory job because that's also the highest form of what is expected. Similarly, if I interact with a woman, I'm going to treat her how I perceive another human being in this situation and not just use her body for my physical masturbatory pleasures, but to get to know her as an individual before wanting to stick my penis inside of her. To do otherwise in my mind is degrading to that person and not showing them full respect. Of course, people can agree to one-night stand casual sex beforehand, but, to me, the fact that two people want to engage in what I consider a "lower form" of sex when it could be something higher and more meaningful shows some kind of issues with that person. And, if they engaged in this behavior on a consistent basis, I would begin to question whether they really respected the other gender enough to want to form a meaningful friendship or relationship.

You're contradicting yourself big time here. How can it be inherently exploitative if it's often a mutually agreed upon arrangement?

Because there's a reason that one has made that arrangement, and most of the time it has to do with not wanting to take the time and trouble to get to know that other individual and instead to fulfill only one's needs selfishly. When sex can be part of so much more (friendship, love, psychological fulfillment, etc.), and instead one only chooses to use other people for just physical fulfillment, it says something about that person's internal character.

I don't think one is necessarily a "misogynist" for engaging in consistent casual sex. For one, I don't think it shows hate of women rather than a lack of respect. Two, it doesn't take into account same-sex casual sex, but I would still argue that it shows a fundamental lack of trust and respect towards people in general to engage in it consistently. It's just that some heterosexual men do have male friends who they trust and respect, but choose not to engage towards women in the same way and instead interact with them only through pick-ups and casual sex. When this sort of differing interaction occurs then I would argue that it enters the realm of misogyny due to the differing treatment of the two genders.

But I think your whole view of sex here is extremely puritan and nonsensical and contradictory.

I consider it more uplifting and suitable for the capabilities that human beings have to love and respect each other as individuals. When we are just copulating like animals without attempting to love and understand each other, I think we doing ourselves and our entire species a disservice. There's a reason that most people want to fall in love, and when we aren't making an effort to do that, then we aren't living our lives to the best of our abilities.

[–]GroovyEFS1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When sex can be part of so much more (friendship, love, psychological fulfillment, etc.), and instead one only chooses to use other people for physical fulfillment, it says something about that person's internal character.

You are jumping to conclusions big time here. It can say many things about a person's character. It can say they're not in a place where they want an LTR at this point in time. It can say they enjoy the company of women in their lives but don't want to commit to a relationship for any number of potential reasons.

To assume that the only reason anyone would engage in casual sex is down to a lack of respect and trust is just making a huge judgement with very little basis.

I also still don't get why you see sex as an inherently disrespectful act if performed casually. I can have casual sex with someone and still respect them afterwards.

But then a lot of this is just your personal feelings as you admitted.

Like I said, if you wish to set these boundaries for your own personal relationships, because personally you do not like casual sex, there's no problem with that.

I do however think you'd do yourself a service by not being so judgemental of others who see things in a different way to yourself. You seem like a reasonable man, I'm sure you can understand that there's more reasons people would have casual sex that don't involve disrespect or lack of trust.

[–]wtknight1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

At the very least I think it says something about someone's internal psychology. If I come in to work on a Monday morning and hear a male co-worker talking about how he banged some chick on the weekend that he met at the club, my thoughts aren't going to be "Wow, that's awesome! How hot was she?" And, they're not going to be "It's perfectly acceptable that you choose to live a life of commitment-free casual sex with strangers and I'm not going to judge you for your choices." They're going to be "Dude, why are you spending your life having meaningless casual sex? Spend your time trying to find someone worthwhile and fall in love with her, because life is a lot more enjoyable then." To me, someone who isn't trying to actively romantically express themselves is doing themselves a disservice, and I start to wonder what their motivations might be for not wanting to find a relationship, and whether that person really even likes or trusts women enough to have a meaningful relationship with them.

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Kinda hard to not live with a LTR. At some point it gets to the point where she, and even you (general "you" referring to the man in the LTR) want closeness. Compound the fact that, at face value, it's efficient, and you really can't have an LTR without living together at some point.

Just think of it this way, lets say she spends a year hinting that she feels like it's time to move in together. Then one day, she wants to discuss it, and she says something like "I know why you don't want to move in together, I get the risk, but we've been together for XX years, don't you trust me? I wouldn't hurt you."

What are you supposed to say to that? "no, I don't trust you that much"? "it's not that I don't trust you, it's that the risk is just too high"? There is nothing that you can say that wouldn't damage the relationship, so why should men put themselves in that situation?

As far as living in a non-common law state, I live here. I've lived here my entire life. My father and sister are here. My friends are here. My career is here. My condo is here. My life is here. I'm not moving to some other state for this one reason alone.

So for me, and for most men, the best thing to do is to see women as sex objects. Just a thing to fulfill a desire. It's not that I want to think of women this way, in fact, I have to try really really hard to not view women as partners, but this is the way women want it so it's the way it is. Cause there sure as hell is no way I'm risking my condo, the money that I've put into my own retirement fund and the money I've put into a retirement fund for my father, my savings account and my investments for some woman. No way I'm committing myself to kids only to have them taken away from me on a whim. No way, fuck that. No marriage, no common law, just sex.

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Video linked by /u/Nemobeenfound:

Title	Channel	Published	Duration	Likes	Total Views
"Everyone Is Now Dumber" - Billy Madison	etemadia	2008-04-22	0:00:36	7,800+ (98%)	1,308,998

"Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most...

^Info ^| ^{/u/Nemobeenfound} ^can ^delete ^| ^v2.0.0

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Furthermore, if you can't successfully get laid in a more casual sense, it usually follows that you're going to have trouble procuring dates/ltrs.

I don't agree. It's much more difficult to find casual sex, because not as many women want to have it and, when they do, many times it's on a whim with some high-quality guy who they meet after drinking a bit on a night out, and not with the average to slightly above-average type of guy who they might choose to have a relationship or FWB type arrangement with.

In my opinion, men who are of average to slightly-above average quality should cultivate what I refer to as "flirty friends," where he is a friendly gentleman towards a woman who he interacts with regularly, but also makes it obvious that he is attracted to her with playful non-creepy banter, jokes and compliments, which prevents him from being put into the friendzone. If she's turned off by him doing this, then the guy didn't have a chance from the beginning, and he knows that he's wasting his time pursuing her further. At any rate, casual sex with strangers is difficult for all but the highest quality men, and it leads to men cultivating unjustified misogynist beliefs when they see sexually open women providing the types of casual arrangements for Chad that they cannot achieve for themselves.

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You see that's exactly the problem with bp advice and with the survivorship bias OP mentions.

Your plan would be okay, if people had attractive women in their life they regularly interact with.

But let's look at it. For this plan to work, these women you regularly interact with:

have to be single
have to be attractive to you, be your type
they have to find you attractive
depending on your views: can't be colleagues because you want to keep work/relationship separated, not at your gym or favorite bar, because you don't want to kill your gym or bar in case of a bad breakup, can't be a close friend because you don't want to ruin the friendship...

I can say from personal experience that even if you have a very active social life, the number of women you regularly interact with and who fit those criteria could be exactly zero.

Add to that that most guys who come looking for advice online because they are struggling probably already have tried to find out if the women in their lifes are interested in them and your "flirty friends" advice won't benefit guys who are struggling.

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Do we have a fundamental misunderstanding of RP and TRP...

Probably, most people do.

because we are 'out of the game' so to speak?

But not because of this. If you are in a committed relationship, and have gone through all of woman's cycle many times, then you will probably have a much better understanding of women then guys who spin plates.

[why do I disagree so much with TRP]

All writing needs to be suited to the audience. You have probably heard of the statistic that 50% of marriages end in divorce. However this is skewed by those with multiple marriages. And also difference preferences, socio-economic status, education, age and race.

Stopping here, this is one of the tests of BP-ness, the majority of those who are serious about it, will read what I have written, zoom in on me saying the word 'race' and instantly dismiss me as a racist. Fear not, I'm not white so I can't be racist. But I digress.

Back to writing for the audience, the majority of men in TRP are not winners, they are losers who are sick of being losers. For many of them, getting a girl who is loyal, attractive and supporting might be impossible, for these men, making sure that they don't think with their dick, and making sure they understand the female halo effect is very important.

naturally 'RP'

You tell me. Maybe you are.

Or did we actually succeed with strategies and techniques that are directly opposed to or contraindicated by RP. If so, what were they?

Let's say that for the sake of an argument that you used specifically BP sexual strategy and succeeded. Is this a good idea to suggest that other men do the same? RP says it is not, most likely you status and other gift (both earned and unearned) helped you more that you believe. It is still recommend for men to use strategies that have been shown to work in general.

An example is with fat women or short hair. While it is definitely true that certain men like chubby girls, or girls with pixie cuts, the majority of men do NOT. Telling women to gain weight and cut their hair short is bad advice, even if you are with a partner who personally prefers these traits.

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But a crack whore mom of 5 who was a hot babe would make a good plate, wouldnt "it"?

She might to some people. Plate spinning is one sexual strategy, but it is by no means the only one.

Are there men in the redpill for the purpose of getting into a LTR

Yes. LTRs is another sexual strategy.

everything I've seen rp say is that the purpose is lifting, dominating, and fucking hot babes, not trying to get into a healthy relationship with a good woman,

The purpose of TRP the reddit board is to discuss sexual strategy unfiltered. The idea behind TRP in general is that there is a powerful Main Stream Media that is pushing a specific agenda, that is not reality nor beneficial to men or women.

...since no such thing exists and awalt.

This is a strawman.

Im not seeing how the point of redpill isnt thinking with your dick.

Don't be autistic. Google what a metaphor and a cliché means if you are unsure.

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Since we're not competing against Chad on the Tinders or the Bumble or trying to slide into pretty girl's DMs or trying to get their Snapchat or whatever are we guilty of survivorship bias? Are we projecting our successful relationship experiences onto All Women and denying the insights of RP because we found our Unicorns?

There is an element of this ... I try to stay entirely out of discussions of single game technique for this reason. My experiences we're just so long ago I don't have confidence they're relevant. It's one of the reasons that when I posted on RP subs I did it on MRP, and not TRP.

Or are we simply 'naturally' RP and had success with women because a)we were attractive enough and b) applied RP principles instinctively? Are we gaming our own wives without even knowing it?

I think thats largely it, and one of the common experience of older guys tripping across RP....like me.... is that "This explains a lot, stuff I knew worked but didn't know why. And a lot of otherwise completely unexplainable stuff that I thought at the time shoulda worked, but clearly didn't".

One of the experiences most RPM go through when they discover RP .... is going back mentally through their dating/relationship history and suddenly finding a LOT of it much more explainable and understandable than previously. You suddenly realise just WHY that girl went off you so quickly, and why that other one was so interested and so on.

Or did we actually succeed with strategies and techniques that are directly opposed or contraindicated by RP. If so, what were they?

This would be interesting, because the list of activities that fit this description should be very low. Or at least, these actions that succeeded should have alternative explanations in RP.... and there should be few that can't be explained from an RP frame.

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It was very different. For context I used online dating a lot back then, and then I used it again around 2010 after my divorce. I went on a lot of online dating dates way back then when I was a young man. Women would actually respond to your actual messages. You could exchange long messages with a girl for a month, who had no pictures, and then go on a date and she would actually be gorgeous.

Though catfish still existed and I was catfished back then. A lot of the problems I encountered the second time I used it were still there. But the second time? It was so much worse. That may just be because I went and got all old though. I'm not sure how online dating is now for young guys. But anecdotally it was so much better back in the nineties.

The second time around I got very fed up with online dating. The rare times I was actually looking forward to a date from online dating the girl would flake out. Those things you guys talk about that women do right around age 30? Where they stop being fun to date and treat you like a job interview for being my ATM? Oh yeah. You guys are right. I just quit using it and focused all my energy on meeting women in more organic ways. And that worked very well.

Also not dating women at that age. Yes you guys are correct. My wife was 25 when I met her, a widow, a huge geek, who would rather stay inside and play video games than do anything. Far different from me. I'm a lucky man to have met her.

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I sure don’t because ‘doing all the correct things’ is so vague as to be meaningless.

Maybe to you, but that's likely because you're not trying to understand what it means. You want to be given the answers without thinking about what those "correct" things are in your own experiences.

Unless you care to enumerate and define doing all the correct things it’s a meaningless non-answer.

The "correct" things are to make someone feel good or "happy" or "excited" to be around you, and we usually need to find those things out for ourselves when we talk to people. There's no joke that makes anyone who hears it laugh, and there's no present that makes anyone who receives it feel good.

What are the things and what makes the correct or incorrect and how does that define ‘winning’ a marriage or relarionship.

Like I said, there's a lot that goes into it because relationships are more complicated than they need to be, but, generally, having good genes and making people feel good (in whatever way possible) and comfortable are what one needs to "win" a marriage or relationship.

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Title	Question for married/almost married Bloopers: Are we out of touch?
Author	theambivalentrooster
Upvotes	13
Comments	229
Date	October 14, 2017 6:19 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/76ds1i/question_for_marriedalmost_married_bloopers_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-marriedalmost-married-bloopers-are-we.265301 https://theredarchive.com/post/265301

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