Rights And Responsibilities | PurplePillDebate

Scurvemuch · 2017-07-01T18:12:01+00:00

My assumption has always been that rights come with responsibilities, hand in hand. Its the main feature of adulthood. You have the right to vote, and you have...

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Abortion is a privilege that was given to us by modern science.

You are way under-selling abortion. It's awesome. I've fortunately never had to have one but the fact that I can choose not to be a mother is amazing. I can enjoy the full intimacy of a relationship without fear of becoming a mother. Yes, a baby is the natural result of sex but it doesn't have to be that way. And I think that men should have that same luxury.

The man has equal responsibility in creating the fetus, so he bears equal responsibility in providing for the fetus when it becomes a baby.

But he doesn't have equal say on if it can go to term.

Also, I know this is commonly considered a men's issue but I hate too consider it as such. I think everyone, man or woman should becone parents only of they consciously choose to.

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If a man/woman somehow knew they were going to be financially poor their entire life and that they'd never be able to afford children...yes. It would be a very smart decision to have a vasectomy or tubaligation.

But most people don't plan on being in poverty or lower class. A 19 year old man/woman who's a minimum wage cashier at Walmart will usually not want to still be in that job/income level when they are 25 or 30. Hopefully by then they've gotten a much better job, and can thus plan for having a family, if that's what they want.

What I think is ridiculous is that I've known since I was 16 that I never want to be pregnant, and now that I'm 32 it's still impossible to find a doctor to make sure it doesn't happen. Same for guys...I know a 26 year old dude who is confident he'll never want children of his own, but he's gone to 4 different doctors who all say he has to be at least 30 to have it done.

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But I remember around 2006 when republicans were telling women the same thing and women were outrage

Except it's a bit different with abortion as an option. There's another option to not having sex, it's more about being decisive about your decisions and knowing the natural consequences. Women have more options and can face less consequences than men and this is due to biology , nothing you nor I could ever make fair.

The baby would go to the father first before the state. Both would need to surrender the child. When it goes to the father, if the mother has an income she would need pay child support. I guess the mother could not name a father for the baby, but then the man is not being roped into it at all .

I believe that it's wise for men to be careful about where they put their sperm because of laws, not because I don't want them to have sex. I think that financial abortion , forced fatherhood are issues which need to be addressed. I believe that an equal situation can never really exist but we need to balance the struggles of moms, dads and children. So in a way we need to agree that a right to casual sex belongs to men and women equally. A right to sex without Parenthood. A man can't be roped into parent hood just by having sex. Women can be vigilant with birth control or accept the risks of casual sex, she can decide whether to abort the baby or give the baby for adoption if she cannot be a mother but she cannot force the father to be a father. This no longer applies to committed relationships, i.e. engagements or marriages, where the man and women agree that if a child were born they would make the decision jointly on how to proceed. If the woman decides to have a baby then, the man cannot opt out of parenthood since he had accepted that risk when he entered commitment. But it's also a reward too, as he has guaranteed himself parental rights in the event of a child being born. Maybe a mandated paternity test too.

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put most simply... because someone has to contribute to the child's financial well-being and it makes sense for the someones to be the parents.

an alternative would be nice; i don't disagree with that. but the answer seems simple.

[–]Scurvemuch 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (87 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (83 children) | Copy Link

yup! both were involved in the conception of the child that needs to be taken care of, like it or not. there's no denying or getting around that.

[–]Scurvemuch 2 points2 points2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

nope, equal responsibility as a parent. don't be petty.

[–]Scurvemuch 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

you're being very petty. perhaps you shouldn't make posts about subjects you're so emotionally affected by, because it appears that you can't discuss it without jumping to your own wild conclusions.

i already said i agree that there should be alternatives for men in situations like this; that would be ideal. on top of way overestimating how common this is (seriously, not making a baby is so easy, people do it all the time), you've conveniently ignored that the options women have also benefit men if a child is unwanted. no unwanted child, no problem.

if you can't respond to this in a normal, rational way, then i probably won't bother continuing.

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Childbirth mortality is so low as to be insignificant.

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Equally overblown?

You have more of a chance dying by bacon than birth

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No ones arguing right at all. That's purposefully misses the point.

Woman has 100% say over whether carry to term or abort.

Man has 0 say, and 100% responsibility for her decision.

You tell me, if I had 100% say in whether you had a baby or not... How would you react?

And to keep off the risk equivalent to getting hit by a bus, let's say it's your husband knocks up another girl, and you're on the hook for it, or you're a married lesbian, and the other girl in vitro get pregnant.

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See the rules of the game, work with what's in front of you.

Be in control of the BC

Dont be thirsty and fuck crazy chicks

Avoid girls in baby rabies age bracket

Keep an eye on vasigel.

Lue to doctor to get vascectomy, or to Mexico.

And if DT, use fake name and never take to your place. Some even airbnb their ONS. Or grind up plan b in breakfast, and risk jailtime

Tons of options, none of them whining. The fact that women are unwilling, or unable to see the situation was scurv especially point.

The idea of locking down a mans finances for 18 years is no big deal? Don't be surprised when guys eventually start being shader and shader. I've lose a friend to a 32 year old plate who swore she was on BC, and trusted her like an idiot.

Now two kids, and brow beaten. I hope when they hit 18 there's enough man to salvage. He stepped up and bore responsibility. Takes his best years for her inability to lock down a husband like a normal woman, and had to sneak one past the goalie.

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i still have no interest in paying for this; it's not my problem. but you're not wrong in that it is an alternative.

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it's not my problem

if i end up paying for it, oh well. not really going to feel particularly interested or happy about it though, because

it's not my problem

health-related tests, i have less of an objection to.

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The laws are not for the benefit of either parent, they are for the benefit of that child. No parent has the right to abandon their responsibilities for their child. Any scenario to try to override biology and make things more fair for the sexes has only one potential loser, the kid. Society and the law have decided that a child's well-being is more important than a parent's wants and desires.

Children born to single mothers in poverty will have a shitty life most likely.

Given that the rights of the child supersede the rights of the adults we should force her to abort in that scenario.

Best interests of the child.

The only scenario in which a man bears no responsibility in an unwanted pregnancy is if he was raped.

Why would that matter if the only important thing is best interests of the kid? He didn't choose to have a rapist mom.

Sex is not a risk free act. Any adult choosing to have sex should be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Unless they're a woman then they get all sorts of outs.

I would argue that aborting a pregancy that a person or couple is unable or unwilling to care for is taking responsibility and dealing with consequences.

By that logic saying "I don't want this kid so I'm leaving" is too.

[–]benisbenin0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Butt-Factory0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If this was the case women who would not be able to provide a decent life for the child (such as women living below the poverty line) would be forced to abort. Your statement is thus objectively false unless you also count the women as children. Try something new.

Nope. Body autonomy is one of the highest rights. The way it works is that all adults have full body autonomy under the law, and all children have the right to parental support. You cannot alter the law without violating one or both of these rights. Forced abortion is obviously an example of egregious violation of body autonomy.

This is objectively false as well, as even underage boys who are raped by adult women have a financial obligation to the woman, phrased legally as a financial obligation to the child. A quick search to inform yourself before you spouted your opinions that were crafted from a fantasy worldview would have sufficed to prevent you from sharing nonsense.

Similarly, girls and women who are raped can be forced to share custody and coparent with their attacker. Gratefully, both that scenario and the one you've described are exceedingly rare. The fact that rape victims and rapists are still legally required in rare cases to support their children proves my original point, that the child's well-being is put above the wants and desires of either parent under the law.

All adults have the right to body autonomy

All children have the right to parental support

Equal rights do not guarantee equal results

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It would be best interests.

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Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but IMO, once the child has been born, it doesn't matter whether one or both birth parents wants it or doesn't -- they have (or should have) an obligation to take care of it.

I think we'd probably agree that if a woman can't support a child, especially if the father doesn't want to participate, it's probably better if she aborts it or puts it up for adoption. But if she doesn't take that route, for whatever reason (religion, stupidity -- lol) someone has to adequately support the infant. IMO, it should be the parents, not society-at-large. Why should the taxpayers be screwed when they didn't get so much as a kiss?

Incidentally, I disagree with our current practice of saying that if the custodial parent (usually the mother) can't support a child, we'll provide all kinds of alphabet-soup-agency assistance, but if the noncustodial parent (usually the father) is broke, we'll throw him in jail! Nope, I think both parents should be held responsible, and if they fail and neglect their child, take it away and give it to someone who can raise it properly. Of course in the short term this would be very expensive, although perhaps not so much as one might think, as it would probably cause the birth rate to drop off sharply. Most women are not going to endure a nine-month pregnancy only to hand their baby over to foster care because they can't afford to keep it. (The out-of-wedlock birth rate was in the low single digits prior to the inception of modern welfare programs.)

[–]despisedlove21 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Taxpayers pay for the society's stupid in several ways already. Counseling and detox costs for alcoholics and drug addicts. Courts and enforcement for those that can't keep to posted speed limits. Anger management classes for those that indulge in domestic abuse (as long as they aren't female). Increased healthcare costs for those that choose to smoke and to give themselves and others cancer. Prison costs for several classes of felonies and misdemeanors that arise out of stupidity.

No. I don't agree that if she decided to keep the child for "whatever reason" after the fathers explicit desire to not have a child, and didn't go for abortion or adoption, the unwilling father should be on the hook.

Contracts, especially with financial implications, are never forced on people, except in this case. The only reason is feminist misandry and benevolent (to her) sexism.

"He shouldn't have had sex with her" is a cop out. Condoms fail. Women routinely lie about being on birth control. Birth control can fail. Unless there is evidence that he is acting in bad faith (such as legally tenable evidence that he told her he wanted the child and then changed his mind), he should have no obligations at all. That too, only after a mandatory paternity test.

[–]Willow-girl1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (66 children) | Copy Link

Responsibilities aren't always voluntary. A woman who gets pregnant hasn't done so without the involvement of a man and potentially it happened without her choosing to become pregnant. There is no way a woman can give up that responsibility once she is pregnant - she has to make a responsible choice: either abort the baby, or carry it to term. Neither choice is risk-free or easy and both have financial consequences (as well as physical and psychological ones). Why should a man be free to side-step responsibility entirely because he doesn't want the child he shared in creating?

If you want it to be 100% free of responsibility, you don't have sex - there is always the possibility (albeit relatively small) of contraception failing. Is that only a woman's risk to take? No one should have sex then without the explicit intention of creating life...

She might not want a baby just as much as you don't, but it happened and now she has the immediate, lions-share of the responsibility. While you might be thinking of the financial costs, she is thinking of that + the psychological and physical burden of deciding between abortion (not everyone is comfortable doing it, and I think very few women do it flippantly) and raising a child...As far as I know, men don't pay 100% of what that child needs to grow up, they contribute to it. Personally, I think it's only fair. I do believe that a man should be able to require a paternity test before paying out though.

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Pill

Plan b

Abortion

Adoption

Carry

She has all options, men have only one, dont bust nut.

Its a minefield

[–]CrazyTom54Fabulous Blueberry2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Aparently if it breaks or fails, it doesn't count.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

This isnt about me, why would I whine to divorced chicks on the internet?

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Don't mistake not wanting relationship advice from a thrice divorced lady with not thinking youre a good person 😊

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Men are stupid. Did you not see the opiate addict worried his wife has a celebrity crush?

Our resident doctor spent an hour talking to him, wasted effort

[–]Willow-girl2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]CrazyTom54Fabulous Blueberry0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

So are women's when it comes to initially getting pregnant...

Scenario: I have an ONS or am in a casual relationship with someone. We use condoms and I'm on the pill. I've never been pregnant or intended to be. I find out I am indeed pregnant and I've only had sex with this one guy in that time. So, now I have a responsibility I didn't ask for and can't pay away....I have to make a tough decision. It is going to cost me both financially and psychologically to make this decision. The guy says he wants nothing to do with me anymore and doesn't want the baby. I don't want an abortion because maybe I'm religiously or morally opposed to it. I now have to face the burdens that come with it. I will have to take time off from work at some point and, at least in the US, there is no law stating that my employer needs to pay me maternity leave or even hold my job or another position open for me. I could lose all income. So, I might be raising a child as a single mother and could be unemployed as well. Physically there are many changes I will go through and there is always a risk to my health and to the baby's. Psychologically I'm having to prepare for a complete life-change and the knowledge that I will be responsible for a new human being for at least the next 18 years...Meanwhile, said guy can carry on with his life uninterrupted - except he has to pay me something each month to contribute to the child he had a hand in involuntarily producing through his own choices. If that man can just walk away with no difficult decision or repercussions at all - how is that fair or responsible of him?

Now, if a woman chooses to get pregnant without the man's consent and then chooses to have that child because she decides she wants one afterall (not because she opposes/feels uncomfortable about abortion), then I think the man has a right to contest any child support payments because he's being used.

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Being morally/religiously opposed to something kind of isn't a choice....If someone believes abortion is murder, then having an abortion is hardly a choice...should they have put themselves in the position of maybe getting pregnant? No, but people aren't always the smartest when they're in lust....

Do you think women should be forced to abort if the man doesn't want the baby? How about men who don't want the women to abort, but she wants to? I've always felt really sorry for a man in that situation - being opposed to something he can't control. The fact is, you can't force a woman to abort a baby or to have one - you can encourage, educate and just hope she has some sense of doing the right thing - but you can't force it.

Men better give up on having sex out of wedlock too then - if women aren't going to do it for fear of getting pregnant, then who are you going to have casual sex with? It's a lose-lose for sexual freedom... If a man is opposed to the prospect of becoming a father either fully or just financially, he is irresponsible to stick his dick in a woman...

Women have always been held supremely responsible for reproduction. Men can always walk away if they choose to - either before a baby is born or after, married or unmarried. He doesn't have the physical and psychological responsibility she does. I simply don't believe men can understand it on the same level women can - you are talking financial costs and ignoring the other costs and burdens that only women bear if they get pregnant, abort or raise a child. It's a rather different mentality and can never be fully reconciled.

Personally, I'm not interested in casual sex and part of the reason is that I take the thought of having children very seriously and wouldn't want to risk being a single mother if I can help it. I think children should have two committed parents if at all possible. I don't take the idea of abortion lightly, even though I'm not religious, I just don't like the idea of having to do it unless there's a very good reason not to have that baby....That being said, I give the benefit of the doubt to people and assume they will do their best - you can't expect people to never make mistakes and always be forward-thinking. I don't see many women (apart from some extreme feminists) wanting to be single mothers. But plenty of women are encouraged by men and other women to embrace their sexuality and be free with it - ignoring the potential risk of pregnancy. If we all have to wait until marriage in this day and age, most of us might as well join a nunnery....

[–]Scurvemuch -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (28 children) | Copy Link

Yes I agree with that last statement yet some other commenter told me I think to highly of myself for having that idea.

[–][deleted] 9 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[removed]

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (26 children) | Copy Link

So if you had a daughter or a sister you'd tell them it was a good idea to have children with a guy that wouldn't marry them? Jw

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (24 children) | Copy Link

Ya that's pretty important. I feel pretty strongly about it tho. I wasn't trying to do a "gotcha" kind of thing, I just wondered. Plus, I don't think of ppl as being "red pilled" cuz it sounds so dumb like it's a club or something rather than just ideas.

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

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No. They are both making the same decision, simply on a different timeline. The man's timeline runs from the time he whips it out to when he ejaculates. He has to make his decision -- "Impregnate this woman or not?" -- within that timeframe.

The woman has a slightly longer timeframe, from the time to spreads her legs to the point at which abortion becomes illegal in her jurisdiction (or beyond that, if she's willing to go outside the law).

This seems unfair -- that the woman has a longer time frame in which to decide than the man -- but a lot of factors in the equation are unfair, when you think about it. (Biology isn't overly concerned with fairness.) The man gets a shot at passing on his genes without experiencing the discomfort of pregnancy, permanent stretch marks, labor pains, the possibly of having your vagina rip open during delivery (ouch), even the very slim chance of dying from complications. How do we make those things "fair"? We can't. So be it.

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

When did I say she has no choices? I said her choices immediately create responsibility and none of the choices are simple. They carry risks: plan b has side effects as does abortion - especially if the woman feels uncomfortable in her conscience about doing it or has a religious family that will judge her for it. Men's only risk if they don't want the baby is being held partially financially responsible for that child if the child is born and kept by the mother. If she has an abortion or takes plan b it doesn't effect him at all - but it effects her. He may never even know she got pregnant if they're no longer together and she makes the choice to terminate on her own.

Seems to me to be a much simpler responsibility for a man - and perhaps no responsibility at all if the pregnancy is terminated. But the woman has to swallow pills that may make her sick (and are not 100% effective) or have an abortion, which is no easy decision or a pain-free, risk-free procedure - if it's even legal where she is. Or have a child, which is vastly more than just a financial burden...

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a complex topic and I do see the logic in men's rights to 'financial abortion'. I don't think men should be forced to pay 18 years of child support (certainly not if the mother has a well paying job) or more than a fair contribution to the child if he made it clear from the start he didn't want the baby. Women being able to live off child support payments is wrong - it should only be for the child's wellbeing. I'm assuming that along with paying child support, men in the US have rights to that child if they choose to exercise them? Visitation, custody, etc? If that isn't the case, then that is unfair. Maybe there should be a time limit for men to opt out of being a financial or custodial parent...surely there are cases of men being okay with the pregnancy at first and then deciding further in he doesn't want to have that child. If he opts out the minute he finds out she's pregnant and intends to keep the baby, then maybe that is a fair place to draw the line? This is assuming she has safe access to choices such as abortion or adoption - if she has no option but to have the baby, it is wrong for a man to walk away scot-free, surely? Also, we're ignoring that women also pay child support if they decide to give up the baby to the father's care...

Ideally, children should be born of a committed relationship and raised by both parents. They should be wanted. Promiscuity should be discouraged because it can lead to unwanted babies. Child support is not required unless it is requested, right? Many women don't ask for it. In the UK anyway, stats say 50% of all 'absent' fathers don't pay anything for the child they helped create. Don't know what the stats are in the US, but it's not a constant cloud over all men's heads... there are always going to be cases of women using men unethically to fund their lifestyle and I hate that, but it's a risk you take when engaging with other people in any way. Some people are unethical and frankly crazy - best way to minimise your risks of being shafted is to get to know someone well and have some kind of commitment to them. That's how I see it anyway.

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

It's pretty unfair, but what's to happen to the baby? Is it best for all of us to have another fatherless kid living in poverty? I'm not saying I know what the answer is. I read somewhere that it's who you are that mostly affects your outcomes in life. If you're born in poverty you pretty much stay there. If you're born into affluence you pretty much stay there. It also doesn't make sense to me to have no federal funds for abortion or planned parenthood but to have all these welfare programs instead. So, you guys have to pay both ways.

[–]WhiskersNTreddish purp1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

For abortions?

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]quotient_isPurple Pill1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

My opinion on this matter is that a man should have the same amount of time to "financially abort" as a woman has to physically abort. I also believe that if biological parents are given a pass in this way, social safety nets for single parents should be expanded. The ideology of total personal responsibility doesn't apply where children are concerned. Children cannot be responsible for their existence. If biological parents choose to shirk their responsibilities to their children, society has to take up the slack in order to avoid the social ills that arise from mass scale childhood destitution.

Most right leaning men don't agree with me there. They also generally oppose abortion rights. Those men surely choose to take responsibility for their kids 100% of the time, right?

After the cut off, adoption should be an option provided both parents consent. Should one parent refuse to consent, they should be prepared to take custody of the child. Support payments to custodial parents should still be a thing and the bias against men in this regard should be dismantled.

Men should not have the right to halt a physical abortion, though. Things will never be equal in that regard because men do not bear the brunt of the biological process that is growing a human. It sucks, but that's nature for you.

All of that aside, this issue will be much less significant once more effective, non-invasive birth control options are available to men. Hello vasalgel. :p

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Wolfsouls 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that true? I didn't know it was expensive to adopt. I read somewhere that some nun said conservatives are really pro birth not pro life cuz they don't want to fund bc or abortions and don't want to fund welfare either.

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]quotient_isPurple Pill2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, the reality of that responsibility is lots children not having the resources to survive and/or thrive. Pregnancy as a result of consensual sex is not a unilateral occurrence. Whether intentional or not, the child is half of both parents. If one parent bolts or opts out via "financial abortion", it's in the best interest of society to provide a safety net for the child. Healthy childhood creates a healthy society.

Now, if the custodial parent has the means to care for the child on their own, sure. There should still be income caps on welfare, food stamps, etc. Giving men more choice to opt out of parenthood just necessitates expanded support from elsewhere for single parents who can't provide on their own and will be without child support.

So many men here are opposed to single motherhood because of the problems the children face, but they're also against being required to take responsibility for children they father, AND they're against support programs, thus contributing to those childhood problems. Not having a mom/dad is hard enough. Being destitute only makes things worse.

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How would you go about providing a benefit to a child? The only way I can imagine is to require detailed proof via receipts of what benefits are spent on.

If your child receives food stamps, how do you prove you didn't eat any of the food purchased? Housing assistance is easy. If the child lives there, it benefits them. It also benefits you, though. Does the child not benefit from having a healthy parent who can spend time actually caring for them? I dunno, that seems like a really slippery slope to outright taking the child into state custody. Group homes and foster care are fucking awful. Best to keep children with parents who want/ love them, I think.

I do see what you're getting at. People are going to abuse the system and choose easy ways out of their problems. I just think the benefits of keeping children from homelessness and hunger outweigh the cons.

Surely there are other ways we can discourage single parenthood. Birth control for men and de-stigmatizing abortion within the religious/far right communities would do wonders for this problem.

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[–]midnightvulpine1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hmm. Actually, I did misread your comment. I thought it said honesty is important, when you said honestly it's important. I apologize for that.

As to your question, it doesn't matter what there intent was. Under the law, intent generally doesn't apply and this is better treated with that level of impartiality. The law is concerned with the result. If two people make a child, they need to be responsible about it. If that child lives, those two people have a responsibility to care and provide for it. If it does not, that responsibility goes away. It's a disadvantage for men in some respects, but they still hold every ability to prevent it from happening in the first place by being responsible for mitigating the risk sex is.

Yes, women can abort the child. But honestly? If you think that's an easy mitigation of responsibility, you might ask a few women who have had abortion how easy it was. And whether or not the decision stays with them. I wager most will tell you it was a hard thing.

And even more so in a non-committed relationship, people need to be responsible about what they do and in control of their actions to the point that they won't do something stupid. Women included.

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You have to remember that those laws were set up in an era where women made so much less than men that it would have been impossible for a single mother to raise a child without state assistance.

Child support laws basically had two purposes: Make sure that a child didn't grow up indigent because his mother was very unlikely to be able to support them financially, and make sure that the state wasn't left footing the bill for an irresponsible father.

Now I fully agree that these laws need to be revised, considering that income levels are much closer now for men and women than ever before, although I don't know what the ideal situation would be. I live in the US: If we had a robust social safety net that ensured that no child went hungry or lacked access to basic necessities, then I would support letting the fathers off the hook entirely. Given that we don't have that kind of system yet, I'd put the needs of a living child ahead of those of his parents.

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Title	Rights And Responsibilities
Author	Scurvemuch
Upvotes	7
Comments	419
Date	July 1, 2017 6:12 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6koi73/rights_and_responsibilities/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/rights-and-responsibilities.267244 https://theredarchive.com/post/267244

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