Question for BP: Do you think TRP was the first thing we tried?

skeetch_a_leak · 2015-06-10T15:34:41+00:00

I'm pretty sure this is true of everyone. Who wants to be around someone who sucks? It sounds like you've started to hold yourself to some standards...

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[–]Nazrath2112Blood Splatter Red15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs we can start to see the answer.

I would be willing to put a 5 spot on the fact that people who do not need TRP come from nice homes, where parenting and financial stability were secure and they faced little hardships in life. This would allow them to climb the hierarchy into self actualization much sooner. I can say in my case I was stuck in Safety much longer than most people (Step dad committed suicide in our house when I was 12). This made it so that I was worried about other things like what I was going to eat that day and so i spent much of my energy on self defense.

Someone made a very good observation that most of TRP are people who come from a broken home or had a troubled childhood which would explain the commonality of the needs of people who use TRP.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This struck a chord with me. Not the maslows needs stuff, safety etc. but the broken home bit.... My parents divorced at 15, so nothing as terrible as what happened to you. I've always, even at the time, been very comfortable with it. I was dating at the time and could understand why a couple might split.

It never really bothered me until I was very married myself. But I am very like my dad, and as my mum left, I began to wonder how he had fucked up, lest I fuck up that way too.

When I thought a lot about this, mid thirties, I also realised my "dad deadline" was looming. If I was making whatever mistake he had made, I was probably doing it right now, and by his timeline I had maybe 4-6 years to sort it out.

And I had no fucking idea what had gone wrong, and neither did he.

When the sex tailed off for a while (2 kids over 2 1/2 yrs + 1 yr breastfeeding)... Well then I started to get really worried.

Discovered MMSLP, then MRP/TRP, rest is history.

That was because I wanted more sex, and I also was worried about this warning signal. I still had no idea what my dad had done.

I took the pill properly. Got my RP goggles on and, as you do, looked at my past relationships and the relationships around me. There were many unknowns made know. I lot of shit suddenly made sense. And so I looked at my parents relationship....

And I was so relieved.

It was a classic case. FR worthy. Male betaization. Branch swing, to Chad thundercock. Chad gets bored after a kid and a few years and goes. He was a cock as well.

I could write it up as a case example of its field.

Now I knew what not to do. And I was a natural. 6 months RP. Shit completely sorted. Unplug wife. Welcome to Zion, you're the tail gunner. 4 months and here we are.

Got a great marriage, that is now finally safe. Solved the big mystery.

You couldn't get more textbook. My own parents. These RP goggles ain't ever coming off.

You can pry my red flair out of my cold dead hands.

By the way, everyone ended up OK. Amicable divorce, good split. Dad got nice girl he is very happy with. Been married longer now than his 1st marriage. Mum hubby'd Chad before he cheated and fled. Divorced. Played the market a bit. Snagged "Big Alpha Bear" character who also seems pretty cool, learned her lesson though.

A fairytale for our times.

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You are right in that it does not always make you find your way to self actualization sooner. Now with that being said, if we were to have two people; one from a white collar family who has everything and gets to send their child to an ivy league college and one who is from a poor family who struggles to get everything they need while never being able to send their child to college. I would postulate that the child from the white collar home would get to self actualization sooner (In their 20's and under parents supervision) but might not be able to maintain it after they left their parents supervision. Whereas the child from the poorer home would take longer to get there (Late 20's to early 30's) simply because of level 2 security but that might lead to a stronger and more sustainable level 4 esteem.

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[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

I'm afraid it does guarantee success.

Its very simple. Over at MRP we say...

We can guarantee you will have a fulfilling relationship with a romantic partner that desires you sexually

We just can't guarantee that this will be your current partner...

Even if the relationship is unsalvagable, in the course of our (usually multi-year) attempt to salvage it we build better men. Fitter, Stronger, Funnier, More confident, More active, Much more knowledgable about women, Much more experienced at flirting, Much better game and with the drive to seize their life by the horns.

If she doesn't come along for the ride, at the point of divorce the guy is in the best position of his entire life to snag another girl and make himself happy.

It works whether it saves you marriage or not. Many are saved.

Those marriages that are not saved are left by much higher value men who are catches on the "Divorcee Dating Market". They go through it like a buzzsaw after 2 years of "Extremely Hard Mode" with the screaming harpy they left. It's like training at high altitude.

Our guys do fine... Whatever their wives decide to do... The divorcee dating market is like shooting fish in a barrel after 2 years Married RP.

[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

I'm afraid it does guarantee success.

How? Prove it.

Its very simple. Over at MRP we say... We can guarantee you will have a fulfilling relationship with a romantic partner that desires you sexually We just can't guarantee that this will be your current partner...

Lol, so you can guarantee that you guarantee it. We here at TRP can't guarantee that TRP will work this time, or the next time, or the time after that. But it will work eventually! At some point in time. In the indefinite future. Reply hazy, check again later.

Even if the relationship is unsalvagable, in the course of our (usually multi-year) attempt to salvage it we build better men. Fitter, Stronger, Funnier, More confident, More active, Much more knowledgable about women, Much more experienced at flirting, Much better game and with the drive to seize their life by the horns.

If TRP guaranteed successful relationships, no relationship would be unsalvagable. This means my original assertion that TRP doesn't guarantee successful relationships is correct.
TRP is not the only way that a person can grow, improve, and learn from experiences. It's an option you guys offer, and by claiming that it guarantees success, you can try to sell it as the best option. But since it doesn't actually guarantee success, I would say you're no better than a snakeoil salesman.
And now, disturbingly, it seems as if you've changed the argument and the guaranteed success you're really talking about is getting better at being Red Pill in and of itself. TRP guarantees that practicing TRP will make you a better TRPer. Doesn't matter if your relationship is falling apart around you and that the reason you joined the sub in the first place was to save that relationship and that the sub isn't helping you save that relationship---TRP has taken priority, TRP is now what's important, and your end goal is no longer to save that relationship. Your new goal is to just be Red Pill. That's it. And keep on being Red Pill, regardless of whether or not you're heading for divorce because the Red Pill isn't working. Don't worry, just keep doing exactly what you're doing and eventually, at some point, it will hopefully work on someone (and if it finally does, there, you see, it does work: guaranteed success!).

If that ain't a carrot on a stick, leading the donkey of dumb ideology, I don't know what is.

If she doesn't come along for the ride, at the point of divorce the guy is in the best position of his entire life to snag another girl and make himself happy.

Oh god. Never mind. This is the carrot.

Definitely not what any rational person would call a guarantee. What you're doing is simply hamstering around to reframe failure with an empty, but enticing, promise thrown in the mix. I'm sure all the gullible, vulnerable men who turn to TRP in their darkest hour just drink this shit up. Doesn't matter if the marriage that they're currently in is a wreck that TRP can't fix, because TRP tells you that another girl is waiting just around the corner. And if it doesn't work out with her, don't worry, there's always the next time. And the time after that and the time after that. Guarantee it.

It works whether it saves you marriage or not. Many are saved.

I gotcha. It works when it works and it works when it doesn't and that's a guarantee.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

I'm afraid it does guarantee success.

How? Prove it?

Well, I wouldn't be able to until you tried it. If you did, and it failed, then you can ask for your refund.

Lol, so you can guarantee that you guarantee it. We here at TRP can't guarantee that TRP will work this time, or the next time, or the time after that. But it will work eventually! At some point in time. In the indefinite future. Reply hazy, check again later.

It works. It doesn't always save the marriages, but the guys are constantly reporting that it works.

In fact one of the major problems we have is it works too well and other chicks get interested in the guy before the wife wakes up to the changes. That creates a very dangerous situation where he's not getting laid at home, but he's already getting offers elsewhere.

At a certain stage in your MRP development ... The biggest threat to your marriage is often you.

If TRP guaranteed successful relationships, no relationship would be unsalvagable. This means my original assertion that TRP doesn't guarantee successful relationships is correct.

No, it gurantees a successful relationship. Just not this one. Maybe this ones is Bi-Polar... Or a massive Screetchtard... Or asexual... Or just a stone cold nutcase.

Doesn't matter. What we build is men attractive to women. If you're current wife can't sort her own head out, fold this hand... Be dealt another. If you've been following our advice you are a massive catch on the "Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market".

If anything our guys get to well qualified for that market too early and start getting offers before they've folded the first hand. It's a major thing we have to warn our guys about. We say They'll be a test. There is always a test. Don't fail the test.

TRP is not the only way that a person can grow, improve, and learn from experiences. It's an option you guys offer, and by claiming that it guarantees success, you can try to sell it as the best option. But since it doesn't actually guarantee success, I would say you're not better than a snakeoil salesman.

Never said we were the only way. Just an extremely successful way. And from what I've seen of dead bedrooms, we appear to be just about the only successful way out of that hell. I'm not sure I've ever seen more than 1 success story on there that wasn't RP.

And now, disturbingly, it seems as if you've changed the argument and the guaranteed success you're really talking about is getting better at being Red Pill in and of itself. TRP guarantees that practicing TRP will make you a better TRPer. Doesn't matter if your relationship is falling apart around you and that the reason you joined the sub in the first place was to save that relationship and that the sub isn't helping you save that relationship

That's not why they join. We tell them, all the new guys.... RIGHT UP FRONT.... That is not what we do. We guarantee better relationships, just not that it will be your current relationship. Then we ask... "Is a better sexual relationship what you want ?" and when they say yes, they get a choice of pills to take.

TRP has taken priority, TRP is now what's important, and your end goal is no longer to save that relationship. Your new goal is to just be Red Pill. That's it. And keep on being Red Pill, regardless of whether or not you're heading for divorce because the Red Pill isn't working. Don't worry, just keep doing exactly what you're doing and eventually, at some point, it will hopefully work on someone (and if it finally does, there, you see, it does work: guaranteed success!).

No. It's their choice. To take the pill, or not. To throw it back up whenever they want, or not. To work on this relationship, or not. To create a new relationship, or not.

They are all choices made by the reader. Once he's made his choices we advise him on the way to achieve those goals... But he is the one that makes the calls. Nobody can do it for him

Definitely not what any rational person would call a guarantee. What you're doing is simply hamstering around to reframe failure with an empty, but enticing, promise thrown in the mix.

Nope. Remember where he is at this point. Lets say he had a 12 year marriage. Therefore we would advise not folding his hand until at least 12 months of RP, probably more like 18-24m.

Think about where this places him. Lets say 18 months. If he's followed our advice he will....

Be at his ideal weight

Have 18 months of lifting gains

Be well groomed

Be very well dressed

Will have bags of confidence in himself.

Will have learned how to deflect and ignore shit women try to give him

Will have developed some skills with wit and humour

Will have been flirting and developing game with other women for approx. 6-9 months.

Will have been doing so in front of his wife for probably about 3 months.

Will have developed enough of a IDGAF attitude to have put signed divorce papers in front of his wife and said "There are things I need from this relationship. Either agree to give them to me (Option A) or sign the divorce papers right here, right now (Option B).

He'll probably also have half a dozen leads and mobile numbers in his back pocket from the flirting/gaming.... Usually other divorcees who make excellent plates.

He'll leave the marriage looking the best he can look, feeling as confident as he can, with more experience in flirting and gaming women than he's ever had, and with a bunch of good leads in his pocket.... All to go out into a market where he's going to find it about 200% easier to game women than the woman he just spent 18m practicing on.

Seriously, by this point most of the guys are actually keen to get out there, leave the harpy behind and go get some !

And, of course, if they want they can stop at any stage.

They just generally don't, because they can see the improvement in their lives all around them. But, hey, if he don;t want to drop the D-Bomb ? We can't make him. He can sit at home with blue balls if he likes. Almost all to go with the A/B ultimatum if they reach this point. I'd say about 80% have success with their wives before this stage that means this level of dread is never reached (like me).

I'm sure all the gullible, vulnerable men who turn to TRP in their darkest hour just drink this shit up. Doesn't matter if the marriage that they're currently in is a wreck that TRP can't fix, because TRP tells you that another girl is waiting just around the corner.

Actually, No.

We tell them that there is no girl round the corner for them as they are now. They won't get her. It takes that 12-18-24 months to be worthy of snagging that other girl. Develop that first, practice on your wife, try and turn her around... Give it a damn good long period... IF it fails, then you'll have built a man by that point that CAN get the girls waiting for you out on that "Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market" they are easy girls to fuck. Anyone can snag a few plates from them if they put the 12-18-24 months in first.

And if it doesn't work out with her, don't worry, there's always the next time. And the time after that and the time after that. Guarantee it.

Nah, most of our guys that give the A/B... and She takes B... And they leave.... Don't really get another girl the same way. They spin up a few plates and go with the plate lifestyle. Middle-Aged women make awesome plates. They just want a couple of fucks a month and to be left alone with their lives and kids the rest of the time. You only have to get 3-4 of them on board and you are all set, and with divorce the way it is there is no shortage of middle-aged single moms out there to pick from.

I gotcha. It works when it works and it works when it doesn't and that's a guarantee.

No, it works at what we guarantee it to work for. That is, getting a sexual relationship that you are fully satisfied with... We tell them completely up front that this may not be with their current wife. Then we say ?

Well there are these two pills....

[–]EnderVapedOl' Blue Eyes2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

One slight question here:

No. It's their choice. To take the pill, or not. To throw it back up whenever they want, or not. To work on this relationship, or not. To create a new relationship, or not.

But in your example, the guy has spent the last 18 months improving himself. That is all RP seems to be advocating. Not work on the relationship in any way, instead make yourself more attractive for the time when this relationship is over.

They are all choices made by the reader. Once he's made his choices we advise him on the way to achieve those goals... But he is the one that makes the calls. Nobody can do it for him

I don't see him having any sort of control. RP has now told him that bettering himself comes before bettering his relationship (I'm assuming we can agree that a 12-year old marriage deserves some effort). In fact, RP will only interact with this guy if he strictly adheres to RP dogma. The moment he says he wants to work it out, RP immediately call him beta and toss him out. So no, he has no choice there. You have not given him any sort of choice to make, you're simply telling him what he should do.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

I don't see him having any sort of control. RP has now told him that bettering himself comes before bettering his relationship (I'm assuming we can agree that a 12-year old marriage deserves some effort).

Any decent counselor will tell you the same. Because you can only fix yourself. And a 12-year marriage that's in shambles has probably already gotten a fair amount of work. And it's still failing. Time to try something new.

In fact, RP will only interact with this guy if he strictly adheres to RP dogma. The moment he says he wants to work it out, RP immediately call him beta and toss him out.

TRP and MRP have different focuses. You're confused.

You have not given him any sort of choice to make, you're simply telling him what he should do.

That is, in fact, giving someone a choice. He's not forcing them to do anything, simply giving opinionated advice. That works.

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

TRP and MRP have different focuses. You're confused.

Are you trying to suggest that RP is totally ok with beta people hanging in their sub? That they embrace any line of thought other than their own as having any worth? That they don't view themselves as the only people who can see the world for what it truly is?

Also, I'm going to need you to explain precisely what is RP and what is MRA in my statement.

That is, in fact, giving someone a choice. He's not forcing them to do anything, simply giving opinionated advice. That works.

I'm sorry, that sort of argument doesn't really hold water. I mean, the Jews in Germany had a choice, right? The blacks in Jim Crow states had a lot of options too? "Having a choice" is not the same as "having a choice, but only one of the options is good".

It's not a choice if you threaten with disassociation when somebody makes a claim contrary to the group.

[–]skeetch_a_leak0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you trying to suggest that RP is totally ok with beta people hanging in their sub?

Any experienced member of TRP/MRP/MMSL will tell you that a balance of alpha and beta behaviors are necessary to maintain a marriage/LTR. Even the new guys probably know that.

That they embrace any line of thought other than their own as having any worth? That they don't view themselves as the only people who can see the world for what it truly is?

Would PETA let you come extol the virtues of hunting? Would you expect the Democratic Party to embrace privatization of social security? Of course not.

Also, I'm going to need you to explain precisely what is RP and what is MRA in my statement.

TRP = /r/TheRedPill. MRP = /r/MarriedRedPill. MRA = irrelevant group that I didn't mention.

I'm sorry, that sort of argument doesn't really hold water. I mean, the Jews in Germany had a choice, right? The blacks in Jim Crow states had a lot of options too? "Having a choice" is not the same as "having a choice, but only one of the options is good". It's not a choice if you threaten with disassociation when somebody makes a claim contrary to the group.

Yes, getting chastised in a forum full of internet strangers is the same as being blasted by a firehose or starved to death in a work camp. Fuck off, asshat.

[–]EnderVaped0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Any experienced member of TRP/MRP/MMSL will tell you that a balance of alpha and beta behaviors are necessary to maintain a marriage/LTR. Even the new guys probably know that.

Come on. This isn't even remotely true. RP espouses precisely zero "beta" actions. In fact, by the language used in your forum, it's quite apparent that anyone who does have a "beta" habit is most certainly an inferior person.

Would PETA let you come extol the virtues of hunting? Would you expect the Democratic Party to embrace privatization of social security? Of course not.

True. PETA's a terrible organization, if you're comparing yourself with them then you are in terrible trouble.

You also didn't answer my questions. Unless you did, and you are saying that you accept no deviation from the "party" line.

TRP = /r/TheRedPill. MRP = /r/MarriedRedPill. MRA = irrelevant group that I didn't mention.

I have no idea how I misread that as MRA. I apologize for that.

However, I'd still like you to break it down for me.

Yes, getting chastised in a forum full of internet strangers is the same as being blasted by a firehose or starved to death in a work camp. Fuck off, asshat.

Okay. Well, then select something else for that question. Can you answer it then, or will you deflect with more random comments and vitriol?

[–]skeetch_a_leak1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Come on. This isn't even remotely true. RP espouses precisely zero "beta" actions. In fact, by the language used in your forum, it's quite apparent that anyone who does have a "beta" habit is most certainly an inferior person.

Yeah, single men trying to spin plates need to minimize the beta. Men in LTRs need to have a proper balance. You need to read a bit, or ask /u/TheGreasyPole.

True. PETA's a terrible organization, if you're comparing yourself with them then you are in terrible trouble. You also didn't answer my questions. Unless you did, and you are saying that you accept no deviation from the "party" line.

You ignored the Democratic party comparison. And yeah, no group that has a set of beliefs is going to embrace opposing beliefs in their own forum. No sane person would expect it. I didn't "answer" your question, I dismissed it. Because it's irrelevant.

However, I'd still like you to break it down for me.

No.

Okay. Well, then select something else for that question.

You can pay for college by getting a job and working your ass off, or you can get loans. I suggest getting a job, but if you get a loan you have to deal with the consequences. And I'm not going to comfort you when you can't pay them off.

Can you answer it then, or will you deflect with more random comments and vitriol?

I will always respond with dismissal when someone compares government enforced racism that resulted in imprisonment and death to being chastised in an internet forum. That one's on you.

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, single men trying to spin plates need to minimize the beta. Men in LTRs need to have a proper balance. You need to read a bit, or ask /u/TheGreasyPole.

You know, you guys love to toss out the "you need to read" thing a lot. Did it ever occur to you that I have?

I'm that atheist that reads the Bible before trashing it.

You ignored the Democratic party comparison.

Oh, are we now counting number of ignored points? I'm not sure you really want to.

But, since you asked, my opinion on the Democratic Party (and pretty much all the parties, honestly) is not that much better than my opinion on PETA.

And yeah, no group that has a set of beliefs is going to embrace opposing beliefs in their own forum. No sane person would expect it.

I never stated "opposing" views, that was all you. The world is not black-and-white, and neither are beliefs.

I didn't "answer" your question, I dismissed it. Because it's irrelevant.

Here is a perfect chance for you to educate me and anyone who reads this, and yet you refuse to. Again.

No.

Well, if you're not going to actually explain the points you're trying to make, there's no reason to even have a debate.

You can pay for college by getting a job and working your ass off, or you can get loans. I suggest getting a job, but if you get a loan you have to deal with the consequences. And I'm not going to comfort you when you can't pay them off.

Now that's just willful ignorance. That doesn't even touch upon what we were discussing. In fact, at this point I believe you're actually making my argument for me.

I will always respond with dismissal when someone compares government enforced racism that resulted in imprisonment and death to being chastised in an internet forum. That one's on you.

Are you really so easily bruised that a comparison such as that hurts so bad that you can't actually discuss any of the points brought up? Because from my side, it certainly looks like you have no response to my points.

[–]skeetch_a_leak1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know, you guys love to toss out the "you need to read" thing a lot. Did it ever occur to you that I have? I'm that atheist that reads the Bible before trashing it.

If you have it hasn't done you any good, because you don't know what you're talking about. Are you that atheist that says Episcopalians suck because Robert Tilton was a crook?

But, since you asked, my opinion on the Democratic Party (and pretty much all the parties, honestly) is not that much better than my opinion on PETA.

You have earned some respect.

Here is a perfect chance for you to educate me and anyone who reads this, and yet you refuse to. Again.

I'm not your tutor. And the question I dismissed was about your expectation that TRP "embrace any line of thought other than their own". You say you didn't mean "opposing" views, but that's exactly what you're talking about. Something doesn't have to be precisely opposite to be "opposing". How about "competing"? Same effect.

Well, if you're not going to actually explain the points you're trying to make, there's no reason to even have a debate.

Is there really that much to explain between TRP (single dudes) and MRP (not single dudes)? How can you not understand it on your own?

Now that's just willful ignorance. That doesn't even touch upon what we were discussing. In fact, at this point I believe you're actually making my argument for me.

"You can choose A or B. I recommend B. If you choose A, don't come crying to me when you can't handle the consequences." Yep, that's a lot like "use the colored fountain or get beat with a club and put in jail," or "hide in the attic or get sent to a concentration camp." Totally similar. Good one, bro.

Are you really so easily bruised that a comparison such as that hurts so bad that you can't actually discuss any of the points brought up? Because from my side, it certainly looks like you have no response to my points.

As a black man, people using the Jim Crow era as an analogy for petty things is unacceptable to me. As a human comparing harsh language in a subreddit to attempted genocide is unacceptable to me. If you think those are valid comparisons, I can comfortably say you aren't worth my time.

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Come on. This isn't even remotely true. RP espouses precisely zero "beta" actions. In fact, by the language used in your forum, it's quite apparent that anyone who does have a "beta" habit is most certainly an inferior person.

This is wrong. And it's almost certainly because you have read a single site ours (TRP) and have assumed that this is all that RP is.

TRP is simply the biggest singles site. Beta is of no interest to plate spinners. It's of little interest at all, because almost all posters need to add alpha.

RP is far bigger than TRP. There are lots of sites and forums.

Come to MRP, or go to MMSL forums, the married sites... And you will see the application of RP to scenarios where Beta is essential for success.

We've got so good at what we do that what used to be a thriving sub-part o TRP (married/TRP) is increasingly on those separate forums.

RP is bigger than TRP.

And reading TRP is no substitute for reading our sidebar books. If you're the type of atheist that likes to read the bible and you are interested in LTR game, beta, and how that's played start with MMSLP. Afterwards come check out /r/marriedredpill and the rest of our sidebar.

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

But in your example, the guy has spent the last 18 months improving himself. That is all RP seems to be advocating. Not work on the relationship in any way, instead make yourself more attractive for the time when this relationship is over.

No, the intention is to increase your wife's sexual desire for you. So you improve yourself as a man over the 18 months and try, for all that time, to increase that sexual desire in the wife with the improvements you're making "that make all the chicks wet". All through that process you are trying to create that desire.

When you get to 18m, and despite trying for 18m, it has not occurred... Then it's the A/B ultimatum.

If she makes the decision "I'm still not going to change, fuck you" then all that work you put into improving to get her to desire you you just flip over to the next girl. The improvements work on any girl.

All that improvement is just making you more attractive. Up until the A/B you are trying to be more attractive to your wife but the steps you take during that 18m make you attractive to other women too. At the end, if you fail with the wife... You are then in the best possible position to move on. You essentially just completed an 18m training program for moving on, your practice dummy being your wife.

Not as a fat old sad sack with his confidence in the toilet because his wife left him. But a fit, toned, confident guy with plenty of practice in his pocket.

Most wives respond.

I don't see him having any sort of control. RP has now told him that bettering himself comes before bettering his relationship (I'm assuming we can agree that a 12-year old marriage deserves some effort).

Yes, but at every stage we are just guys at the other end of the internet offering advice. He can take it or leave it. He can do any action, or decline to do any action. We aren't there with him. He decides what to do. Generally in any advice post he gets offered 3-4-5 options by RP posters. He decides which to use, and in which order is appropriate to him.

In fact, RP will only interact with this guy if he strictly adheres to RP dogma.

No. We have a lot of guys who are really fucked up and can't even come close to being RP for 2-3-4-5-6 months. We keep offering them a selection of options.

But if they decline all the options... They sit there with that option set until they move on, more or less. We don't stop advising him it's just that, if his situation is X then we give the half-a-dozen options we give for X. If he don't take them, he stays at X. Those are the options.

If he progresses to Y ? New options. But at X, we've discovered that these are what works. We ain't going to make up bullshit that doesn't work and tell you to do that just because you don't like 1-6.

If he fails to take all our advice but gets to Y anyway ? Here are the options for Y.

The moment he says he wants to work it out, RP immediately call him beta and toss him out. So no, he has no choice there.

Yes he does. He can walk. At any point. "Thanks guys, for all your help. I am doing much better now thanks. But I don't want any more advice. I don't like your options. See ya" and away he goes. Very few do, because the options we offer keep succeeding.

If the same guy rejects all our options... and walks... and turns up again in 3 months saying "It's all fucked up. Help me RP" we pick it up from there again and start walking him forward again (this happens semi-regularly). If he's still at X, he gets the X option set. If in the meantime he's regressed W or moved on to Y he gets those options.

Shit dude, if he really wanted to he could ignore our advice... Go do something else... And come back and lie and tell us he took our advice. We wouldn't fucking know. He's got full and complete control. We are just guys chatting to him over the internet. We can't take a single action. Can't observe a single result. We are 100% reliant on him for both actions and reports. Only he can do that.

You have not given him any sort of choice to make, you're simply telling him what he should do.

No, go have a look at those threads.... Multiple replies... From multiple senior posters... Generally offering about 4-5 ways through the maze. The "Hardcore Reds" with their "It's a shit test son, be a man. Fuck" the "Softcore Reds" with "Maybe she's got an issue with Y, why don't you try sorting Y" a few other takes and ways of thinking of the problem (all within the RP canon). The OP then selects between the 4-5 options made available over the 40-50 comments and takes an action. Either it works or doesn't. If it doesn't he can take the next one he likes, and the next and so on.

AT ANY STAGE he can walk away and never post again. Or lie. Or take his own damn action and just post again in a weeks time (ignoring the results of his last action) and say "My new situation is this" and we advise on that.

He's the only guy who can take action. Or ask questions. Or report information. That puts him in complete control. We are well aware of that and we make them well aware of it too. "Own your own shit, bro".... "Take Action ! No one can do it for you".... "If you don't do something, no other fucker will" and so on.

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, the intention is to increase your wife's sexual desire for you. So you improve yourself as a man over the 18 months and try, for all that time, to increase that sexual desire in the wife with the improvements you're making "that make all the chicks wet". All through that process you are trying to create that desire.

But that's not what you said. You very clearly were referring to his relationship being over and him moving on. You gave him no advice on how to actually fix his relationship. So no, I do not believe you when you say it's for the wife.

Yes he does. He can walk. At any point. "Thanks guys, for all your help. I am doing much better now thanks. But I don't want any more advice. I don't like your options. See ya" and away he goes. Very few do, because the options we offer keep succeeding.

I apologize, I may not have made my intentions here clear. What I am referring to is someone who is new to the RP concept. Someone who is looking to fit in somewhere. You have taken them in, taught them your dogma and language. Then, he makes a choice that is counter to RP. He's exiled.

The reason why I say something like that is because, based upon everything written in your forum and your required reading, RP is a cult. You have the only correct worldview. Your teachings will isolate a person from their friends and family. You have harsh penalties for countering any of the ideas involved. The teachings will make you better than others. You have a very specific strawman enemy.

Shit dude, if he really wanted to he could ignore our advice... Go do something else... And come back and lie and tell us he took our advice. We wouldn't fucking know. He's got full and complete control. We are just guys chatting to him over the internet. We can't take a single action. Can't observe a single result. We are 100% reliant on him for both actions and reports. Only he can do that.

This whole paragraph means nothing. Are you saying that someone who believes differently from the basic tenets of RP should just lie? Should just make up stories? Should they just invent Field Reports based upon what they wish happened?

No, go have a look at those threads.... Multiple replies... From multiple senior posters... Generally offering about 4-5 ways through the maze. The "Hardcore Reds" with their "It's a shit test son, be a man. Fuck" the "Softcore Reds" with "Maybe she's got an issue with Y, why don't you try sorting Y" a few other takes and ways of thinking of the problem (all within the RP canon). The OP then selects between the 4-5 options made available over the 40-50 comments and takes an action. Either it works or doesn't. If it doesn't he can take the next one he likes, and the next and so on.

You're thinking too micro, too specific. I'm talking about how the sub treats folks around there. They don't have 5 options when they post a thread seeking help, they have 1: follow the tenets or leave. If some RP hopeful came into the sub and said that while he likes the self-improvement concept, but he actually thinks that women are in fact human beings who deserve respect, he'd be booted. It doesn't matter if he has 800000 options, if all of them are essentially the same - follow us or leave.

AT ANY STAGE he can walk away and never post again. Or lie. Or take his own damn action and just post again in a weeks time (ignoring the results of his last action) and say "My new situation is this" and we advise on that.

Really? Huh, I'd love to see a thread where someone suggested that women are equals who wasn't immediately called a beta and dismissed.

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EnderVaped1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It works. It doesn't always save the marriages, but the guys are constantly reporting that it works.

So we have “It works.” And this is directly followed by: “It doesn’t always save marriages.”

In fact one of the major problems we have is it works too well and other chicks get interested in the guy before the wife wakes up to the changes. That creates a very dangerous situation where he's not getting laid at home, but he's already gettiong offers elsewhere.

This isn't a guarantee either. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that TRP itself becomes more important than your current relationship (which you joined TRP to save). TRP and it’s promise of a better future (in about one or two years) with someone else. It’s a shiny, enticing carrot which tells you to keep moving forward while putting blinders on your eyes to shield you from all your current failings.

NHo, it agurantees a successful relationship. Just not this one. Maybe this ones is Bi-Polar... Or a massive Screetchtard... Or asexual... Or just a stone cold nutcase.

A guy joins TRP to save his failing marriage because TRP guarantees him a successful relationship. So he starts doing all the things that the Red Pill advises. If these things don’t work, your conclusion (based on absolutely nothing) is that your wife is a defunct person (like an SP) in some unfixable way. Without any evidence, all you can say is that TRP always works unless it’s used on a person on which it doesn't work. In which case, that person---your wife---is disposable but TRP isn’t. Even though you joined TRP for help regarding that specific relationship and tried using it for years. Now you make your wife walk the plank of your sacred ship rather than these internet philosophers because they've got a cum-stained treasure map.

Doesn't matter. What we build is men attractive to women. If you're current wife can't sort her own head out, fold this hand... Be dealt another. If you've been following our advice you are a massive catch on the "Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market".

Now your relationship no longer matters. This is how Married Red Pill works. It’s amazing. “Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market”. You make it sound like a casino/hotel. I can see it in neon blinking lights.

Someone joins TRP to save their marriage. It doesn’t save their marriage. The only conclusion you can offer this person (based on absolutely nothing) is: she doesn’t count. It’s her, not us. Divorce her, not us.

If anything our guys get to well qualified for that market too early and start getting offers before they've folded the first hand. It's a major thing we have to warn our guys about. We say They'll be a test. There is always a test. Don't fail the test.

Yeah, you make this point a lot. The only way TRP can fail is if you fail TRP. The problem can never be with the system (which apparently tells you from the start that these other chicks are a better bet than your wife), only with the user.

Thats not why the join. We tell them, all the new guys.... RIGHT UP FRONT.... That is not what we do. We guantee better realtionships, just not that it will be your current relationship. Then we ask... "Is a bnetter sexual relationship what you want ?" and when they say yes, they get a choice of pills to take.

Lamo, TRP guarantees you success in any relationship you’re not currently in. If a married guy joins the sub because he’s dissatisfied with his current sexual relationship, TRP guarantees him success, but not with his wife (or whoever he’s with). TRP only works on the women you’re not with right now. (Is this only applicable for his first marriage or could you also say it after his third? Or is this where you tell guys to never marry again and become single bachelors?).

So now the guy should take in all this philosophy and spend more than a year internalizing it and applying it to his life and marriage. But if it doesn’t help his marriage or make him more attractive to his wife, he can’t say that TRP failed or that it doesn’t work, because TRP never said it’d help his marriage or whatever relationship he’s currently in and using it on---hence, TRP can never be criticized. It’s only guaranteed to work in the future. So there’s that enticement again, to trust TRP and leave your marriage because it's saying there’s better options out there. You're just selling divorce like it's some wonderful opportunity to find some “hot, local singles” in the “divorcee dating market” like a Morpheus spam email that's swinging a big, fat carrot between his legs.

And, of course, if they want they can stop at any stage. They just generally don't, because they can see the improvement in their lives all around them. But, hey, if he don;t want to drop the D-Bomb ? We can't make him. He can sit at home with blue balls if he likes. Almost all to go with the A/B ultimatum if they reach this point. I'd say about 80% have success with their wives before this stage that means this level of dread is never reached (like me).

So by your estimate (based on absolutely nothing besides TRP’s boner for the number 80), the Red Pill works for 80% of marriages or for the guys who stick with it through divorce. So, basically, everyone. Guaranteeing they stick with it until it does work. And by “it”, we’re talking about TRP and not their marriages, which you equate abandoning to playing cards. And what you tell these people, who’ve been internalizing your theory and been a part of your community for one year or more, is that they can choose to leave TRP and stick with their marriage, but that alternative is going to be the blue-balled life of a beta---like a threat. You tell them they have a choice, but it’s between a life of beta misery or an imaginary, future sea of pussy he could be swimming in.

It takes that 12-18-24 months to be worthy of snagging that other girl. Develop that first, practice on your wife, try and turn her around... Give it a damn good long period... IF it fails, then you'll have built a man by that point that CAN get the girls waiting for you out on that "Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market" they are easy girls to fuck.

Basically, if years worth of RP tactic doesn’t work for your marriage, this says nothing about TRP. Blame your wife, not TRP, stick with TRP, not your wife. Don’t change what you’re doing; just do it with someone else. And if it doesn’t work with them, just hit Next and try again. We guarantee you’ll have lots of options here at the Middle Aged Divorcee Dating Market. Book your trip today!

Nah, most of our guys that give the A/B... and She takes B... And they leave.... Don;t rteally get another girl the same way. They spin up a few plates and go with the plate lifestyle. Middle-Aged women make awesome plates. They just want a couple of fucks a month and to be left alone with their lives and kids the rest of the time.

Oh, okay, this is where they tell married men to become single bachelors.

No, it works at what we guarantee it to work for.

Which, again, is success in any relationship other than your current one you are in.

Well there are these two pills....

Mind = blown.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]chasingstatues1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's a shame, I was hoping you'd address how I fit this into your precious ship analogy.

You ? You ain't a passenger on my ship, hun. You are flotsam and jetsam in my ocean. I won't deliberately run you over. Just don't get between my ship full of passengers and home port.

And no, no false premise. This is a cop-out move, I understood what you were saying perfectly, and now you refuse to address it.

No, you are completely failing again and again to understand what I say. You really want MRP to be about saving marriages it is not about saving marriages. MRP is very much about Improving the sexual relationship lives of guys who are married. Thats what we do. Often it involves saving the marriage, but if the guy decides himself he wants to fold that hand we will show him how to do it effectively and cleanly and go get that fulfilling sexual relationship elsewhere.

I can't help it if you're wrong. Only explain again and again how you are getting it wrong.

You said that TRP guarantees successful relationships, but not with the woman you're currently with/married to.

Yup. Thats right.

So if you spend years using it on her and find it doesn't work---divorce her, not TRP. Because TRP works just not on the woman you can actually test it on. Only future babes. Which you promise they'll just be a ton of down at the divorcee dating market.

No, because (as you'll note from the above) by this point he has been flirting with other women for about 9 months. 3 months of this more or less in front of his wife.

He's seen that TRP works on those women. They been flirting back. If they ain't.... He don't go past that stage.

We say to him "Your game sucks, you need to improve it before moving to the next stage" and we help him do that until he has reached the point that they are flirting back and handing him numbers. We tell him not to move on to the next stage until he's got this nailed (partly because it prepares him for the next stage, partly because if it's working on them but not on his wife it probably means he needs to fold his hand, partly because once he gets the skills going they very often start working effectively on the wife too).

THEN he can move on, as we are safe we can get what we guarantee IF he moves on to divorce.

That's why we make them wait at this stage until it works, and then move on. Our strategy takes care of ensuring he has the right skills and right attitude for the A/B ultimatum before he gives it.

I've never heard TRP sound like such a scam before.

Well that largely because you are hearing what you want to hear, not what I am saying.

I can't help that. Get the BP shit out your ears and you might suddenly understand.

I can't do it for you. Just the same as I can't take actions for the MRP guys. I can only put the truth in front of you and let you take from it what you can.

[–]chasingstatues1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You ? You ain't a passenger on my ship, hun.

Uh, I said: I was hoping you'd address how I fit this into your precious ship analogy.

Referring to my previous post which you gave up on for obvious reasons. I'll just quote it directly:

"A guy joins TRP to save his failing marriage because TRP guarantees him a successful relationship. So he starts doing all the things that the Red Pill advises. If these things don’t work, your conclusion (based on absolutely nothing) is that your wife is a defunct person (like an SP) in some unfixable way. Without any evidence, all you can say is that TRP always works unless it’s used on a person on which it doesn't work. In which case, that person---your wife---is disposable but TRP isn’t. Even though you joined TRP for help regarding that specific relationship and tried using it for years. Now you make your wife walk the plank of your sacred ship rather than these internet philosophers because they've got a cum-stained treasure map."

No, you are completely failing again and again to understand what I say. You really want MRP to be about saving marriages it is not about saving marriages. MRP is very much about Improving the sexual relationship lives of guys who are married. Thats what we do. Often it involves saving the marriage, but if the guy decides himself he wants to fold that hand we will show him how to do it effectively and cleanly and go get that fulfilling sexual relationship elsewhere.

Oh no, I understand. You're saying that TRP guarantees successful relationships with someone at some point in the future. TRP guarantees future sex with a future somebody. But not the person you're currently with. So lets say you break up with that person or divorce your wife and enter a new relationship. Uh oh, same rules apply! Red Pill only guarantees successful relationships elsewhere.

No, because (as you'll note from the above) by this point he has been flirting with other women for about 9 months. 3 months of this more or less in front of his wife. He's seen that TRP works on those women. They been flirting back. If they ain't.... He don't go past that stage. We say to him "Your game sucks, you need to improve it before moving to the next stage" and we help him do that until he has reached the point that they are flirting back and handing him numbers. We tell him not to move on to the next stage until he's got this nailed (partly because it prepares him for the next stage, partly because if it's working on them but not on his wife it probably means he needs to fold his hand, partly because once he gets the skills going they very often start working effectively on the wife too).

You're also telling these guys to: exercise, dress well, groom themselves, be confident. If a guy does these things and starts getting more attention from women, I don't understand how this proves that TRP works. Nor do I see how getting attention or even phone numbers is a guarantee to a successful relationship. Especially while it's not working on the one and only relationship you can actually try it on. Nor do I see how this won't be very counter-productive to every relationship you apply it to since half of it involves finding back-ups and plates.

THEN he can move on, as we are safe we can get what we guarantee IF he moves on to divorce.

What? Because now he's got a prospect or several lined up, he's safe? And that proves TRP works and guarantees successful relationships? Potential relationship =/= successful relationship. It doesn't even equal an actual relationship. But do go through with a divorce and keep following our fanciful ideology until eventually it finally works.

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ah OK.

The guys who fold are the guys whose passengers are sinking his ship. They are entitled to provision a life raft, make sure it is well provisioned, offer to keep the kids aboard ship, then offer the passenger to stay aboard ship and stop sinking it... Or get in the raft... That's the A/B ultimatum.

If she wants to stay, she accepts you captaincy and agrees to staying aboard on that basis. If the woman willingly wants to leave the ship... You let her, aboard the life raft you have provisioned for her... And she's welcome to paddle into the sunset on her own.

You're also telling these guys to: exercise, dress well, groom themselves, be confident. If a guy does these things and starts getting more attention from women, I don't understand how this proves that TRP works.

Because TRP told him to do a those things and motivated him to take action.

Up until this point in his life no one else had of him to do that. TRP did. TRP worked.

Jobs a good 'un

Nor do I see how getting attention or even phone numbers is a guarantee to a successful relationship.

It's not. It's merely the indicator that he can now function successfully on the open market. He has the proof in his pocket of that. TRP has trained him well, he now knows he can get the girls. He now knows what works. He has built an attractive man. The rest just naturally falls out from there. Once loads of chicks are interested in you finding the right relationship is just being selective among them. Date all the girls. Plate those that like having lots of sex with you. Victory.

Especially while it's not working on the one and only relationship you can actually try it on.

But it's not just her it's being tried on. Those other girls are seeing a guy they want to sleep with that's why they are giving their numbers. That's all he wanted at the start. Girls who actually desired to sleep with him, in contrast to the wife who did not. They're there for the plucking now.

Nor do I see how this won't be very counter-productive to every relationship you apply it to since half of it involves finding back-ups and plates.

Only after he has folded his current hand. We tell guys to keep it in the pants until you fold. Some ignore us, but that's our advice. We also find that wives suddenly get extremely keen to sex up their hubby when other girls start giving him their numbers. Territory marking. Pre selection. All that.

What? Because now he's got a prospect or several lined up, he's safe?

Yup. Girls only give you their number if they are interested in a sexual relationship. If he's packing a pocket full of numbers he is safe on two counts. 1) many of them will give him a sexual relationship and 2) he now knows he can add more anytime he likes as he can see the skills are there in a way that is unfakeable, he's getting the numbers.

And that proves TRP works and guarantees successful relationships?

Yeah. Remember the guy is after "women who desire him sexually" that's what he's got. He don't want a new marriage. He wants to go out and fuck girls. He's got the means to do that in his pocket and in his head. The pocket proves that's what's in his head works.

Wouldn't work for chicks. They want the commitment. Guys want the sex, works perfectly well for us we can take or leave the commitment.

Potential relationship =/= successful relationship. It doesn't even equal an actual relationship. But do go through with a divorce and keep following our fanciful ideology until eventually it finally works.

Yup. And they do exactly that... Because they can see what they built... They can see how attractive they are to chicks now... They can see they got the skills... They can see, can even prove, that th chicks are there waiting for them.

So they have no fear anymore of offering the A/B... They know they will get what they want whatever choice the wife makes.

So thy offer the A/B.

If they don't believe... They big out at that point... And it's back to the flirting to build the confidence, amass the proof, that they require to proceed.

Doesn't usually take long.

[–]chasingstatues1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would like you to remember why this conversation began, seeing as it's run so far off course. This was the original comment I was responding to. He wasn't talking about guaranteed phone numbers and hook ups. He was talking about using TRP to maintain a happy/healthy relationship. I said that TRP doesn't guarantee a happy/healthy relationship (i.e. successful). Then you jumped in saying yes it does, all you have to do is work out, get some phone numbers, get divorced, and hook up with post-wall sloots on the "divorcee dating market" for the rest of your life. That, however, is not what anybody would call a successful relationship. Unless, in order to win your argument, you had to redefine "relationship" to "getting your dick wet". If that's what you were talking about this whole time, I don't even understand why you felt the need to first respond to me at all. I mean, just try to objectively look at your logic for a moment:

We can guarantee you will have a fulfilling relationship with a romantic partner that desires you sexually We just can't guarantee that this will be your current partner...

We can guarantee you'll have a "fulfilling relationship." What does that mean? Is sex the only thing that fulfills you in a relationship? How can you possibly guarantee a fulfilling relationship while saying that you can't guarantee any actual relationship they're in will be fulfilling? As in, you can't guarantee that TRP will make a relationship "successful" or make for a successful relationship---only that it can help you exit a relationship and maybe find a new one (although, once you're in that one, same rules apply, TRP can't guarantee it will make that relationship successful, either, since it's the one you're currently in). You're either sabotaging your own argument or you don't know what the argument is.

The guys who fold are the guys whose passengers are sinking his ship.

And this claim has no valid backing except the word of a salesman. Of course the problem is not with the product, it's just the person you're trying to use it on. Don't trade in the product, trade in the person. It couldn't possibly be that TRP is selling you chewing gum and calling it caulk.

Because TRP told him to do a those things and motivated him to take action. Up until this point in his life no one else had of him to do that. TRP did. TRP worked. Jobs a good 'un

If he simply applied RP theory to his life, relationship, and interactions with women but didn't exercise and start dressing better and otherwise improve himself---would he still be Red Pill? Would it still work? If he simply exercised and started dressing better and otherwise improve himself without applying RP theory to his life, relationship, and interactions with women---would he still be Red Pill? Would it still work?

I don't see enough controlled variables here to validate what you're saying. It's just more self-serving anti-logic that lets you pat yourself on the back for all successes and hamsters around every failure.

It's not. It's merely the indicator that he can now function successfully on the open market. He has the proof in his pocket of that. TRP has trained him well, he now knows he can get the girls.

Get the girls =/= successful relationship. And since we just agreed on that, I don't know how this helps make a case that TRP does guarantee a successful relationship. It's irrelevant.

Once loads of chicks are interested in you finding the right relationship is just being selective among them. Date all the girls. Plate those that like having lots of sex with you. Victory.

It's a beautiful pitch, I'll give you that. It'll get you loads of chicks, brah. But sex isn't a relationship.

But it's not just her it's being tried on. Those other girls are seeing a guy they want to sleep with that's why they are giving their numbers.

It's the only relationship it's being tried on. You're not trying on a relationship with anyone other than your current partner unless there's some polygamy aspect that you're not telling me about.

That's all he wanted at the start.

Now you're claiming that every guy uses RP the same way. Having spent my time arguing many people's very different interpretations and extremes of TRP on this sub, I know that's not true. Even the guy I first responded to in this thread was coming at this with a different angle. He was talking about using TRP to make the relationship he was in succeed. You're a married man, you sure talk up a big game about "folding hands" and having all your plates aligned, but would it really be that easy to divorce your wife? Would you call the life of one night stands with divorcees that will follow a victory? What did you want from the start? Did you want sex or a relationship or both? Do you not believe that some men want both? Including some RP men? Because some of them have said such a thing. So to say that sex is all he wanted seems a bit unfounded. It seems to me that some men will be unhappy if they don't have both these things (sex and a relationship) rather than just one of these things, even if that one thing is the sex and not the relationship.

But I guess once you have a guy "internalizing" your ideology for a couple years (fascinating language), it won't matter what he believed when he started because you'll have him convinced it was divorcee pussy he was really desiring all along. There for the plucking, jesus, you might as well be talking about the poor, desperate men who turn to your sub as a last resort.

sexual relationship. he's getting the numbers.

Sex/One night stands =/= successful relationship. What you're saying is not relevant to what I was talking about.

Remember the guy is after "women who desire him sexually" that's what he's got.

I thought he was after a successful relationship. You really did just start talking about something else, lol.

Guys want the sex, works perfectly well for us we can take or leave the commitment.

Well, that's just bullshit. A guy doesn't get married because he doesn't want commitment. Nor is it so strictly gendered---you might be able to argue that women want commitment more than men, but you can't convince me that no man wants a committed relationship and that they'll be happy no matter what because all they want is sex. But I guess you don't have to convince it to me, just the guys who you're telling to end their marriages so they can become single, divorced bachelors. But as I see it, many men express opinions and desires which contradict your "we can take or leave the commitment" remark, sometimes even TRPers themselves. Maybe you should just speak for yourself, married guy.

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would like you to remember why this conversation began, seeing as it's run so far off course. This was the original comment I was responding to. He wasn't talking about guaranteed phone numbers and hook ups. He was talking about using TRP to maintain a happy/healthy relationship.

And that includes walking away if it's not happy and healthy. Being willing to end unhealthy and unhappy relationships is part of what we teach guys too. We teach them everything they need to know.

We can guarantee you'll have a "fulfilling relationship." What does that mean? Is sex the only thing that fulfills you in a relationship? How can you possibly guarantee a fulfilling relationship while saying that you can't guarantee any actual relationship they're in will be fulfilling?

By showing them how to achieve their goals for a fulfilling relationship, whatever they are. And noting they may have to end this relationship to get that.

You're either sabotaging your own argument or you don't know what the argument is.

No. You are just utterly misunderstanding what we do and how we do it. I can't help that. You may have to just wallow in your own confusion if you won't listen. Horse, water, drinking etc.

And this claim has no valid backing except the word of a salesman. Of course the problem is not with the product, it's just the person you're trying to use it on. Don't trade in the product, trade in the person. It couldn't possibly be that TRP is selling you chewing gum and calling it caulk.

Exactly. Their relationship was in the shitter before they approached RP. Ergo that isn't RPs fault. You might be starting to get it.

If it's broken when they turn up, we didn't break it. Often it's fixed after 6m with us, so we fixed it. The 6-12-24 months before didn't fix it. That started happening when they approached us.

If he simply applied RP theory to his life, relationship, and interactions with women but didn't exercise and start dressing better and otherwise improve himself---would he still be Red Pill? Would it still work? If he simply exercised and started dressing better and otherwise improve himself without applying RP theory to his life, relationship, and interactions with women---would he still be Red Pill? Would it still work?

Maybe and maybe. We only know that the full package works.

All we can really say is "what you did before failed or you wouldn't be here. This is a full package that works". Then they try it out and it works. We are interested in helping guys so that's enough for us.

I don't see enough controlled variables here to validate what you're saying. It's just more self-serving anti-logic that lets you pat yourself on the back for all successes and hamsters around every failure.

Think what you like. It works. I don't need to convince you of that. Think what you wish.

It's a beautiful pitch, I'll give you that. It'll get you loads of chicks, brah. But sex isn't a relationship.

Not for chicks it isn't. A lot of guys in sexless marriages are kinda happy to be getting sex with lots of chicks though.

They decide what they want from relationships, not us. We just show them how to get to those goals. They pick 'em.

It's the only relationship it's being tried on. You're not trying on a relationship with anyone other than your current partner unless there's some polygamy aspect that you're not telling me about.

No. He's using our techniques on his wife and (in late dread game) on other women. He can see them succeed, even if he doesn't follow up that success because he's still playing his current hand.

You're a married man, you sure talk up a big game about "folding hands" and having all your plates aligned, but would it really be that easy to divorce your wife? Would you call the life of one night stands with divorcees that will follow a victory? What did you want from the start? Did you want sex or a relationship or both? Do you not believe that some men want both? Including some RP men? Because some of them have said such a thing.

I'll repeat. He sets his goals. We tell him how to achieve them. If he picks shitty goals that's his problem. My goal was a better marriage. That's the same for a majority of MRP guys, but they all get to define their goals. RP doesn't do it for you.

So to say that sex is all he wanted seems a bit unfounded. It seems to me that some men will be unhappy if they don't have both these things (sex and a relationship) rather than just one of these things, even if that one thing is the sex and not the relationship.

No it wasn't. We were discussing a scenario where the guy has decided to fold this hand. His goals can be whatever he wants but at this point they are usually motivated by having lots of hot sex with other women. If that's not his goal we'll help ease him into another LTR.

But I guess once you have a guy "internalizing" your ideology for a couple years (fascinating language), it won't matter what he believed when he started because you'll have him convinced it was divorcee pussy he was really desiring all along. There for the plucking, jesus, you might as well be talking about the poor, desperate men who turn to your sub as a last resort.

Nah. Again a guys goals are his goals. We tell him how to get there, but he sets the goals.

Sex/One night stands =/= successful relationship. What you're saying is not relevant to what I was talking about.

It is if those are his goals. At this stage (after 5+ years with a harpy wife and no sex) they very frequently are just this. When they are not we will help him achieve an LTR

I thought he was after a successful relationship. You really did just start talking about something else, lol.

That's how a lot of the guys describe their goal to us. That's what they say they want. That's what we show them how to get.

Well, that's just bullshit. A guy doesn't get married because he doesn't want commitment. Nor is it so strictly gendered---you might be able to argue that women want commitment more than men, but you can't convince me that no man wants a committed relationship and that they'll be happy no matter what because all they want is sex.

You know what ? You'd be surprised at how many men... After a failed marriage, years with a harpy, years with no sex, followed by divorce rape... Just decide that this is what they want. Is say 80% who go through all the above choose this. We show them how.

Those that choose another LTR ? We show them how too, it's just a much rarer choice. Once burnt, twice shy and all that.

Plus most guys want to enjoy the singles market a bit first. Take those skills for a proper test drive.

But I guess you don't have to convince it to me, just the guys who you're telling to end their marriages so they can become single, divorced bachelors. But as I see it, many men express opinions and desires which contradict your "we can take or leave the commitment" remark, sometimes even TRPers themselves. Maybe you should just speak for yourself, married guy.

Maybe I should. But you asked me to represent MRP the site, our strategy, our model, our advice and the way we do things. Where that is different from my own views I presented the MRP view.

I love my wife and I enjoy my marriage and the commitment within.

However if it ended... I wouldn't be keen to go into a commitment again, in my case because she would likely never measure up well to my wife.

If my marriage ended is probably play the singles market a bit before settling down a 2nd time.

[–]chasingstatues1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And that includes walking away if it's not happy and healthy.

Maintaining a happy and healthy relationship is actually the opposite of walking away. And walking away is the opposite of a relationship succeeding. And maybe sometimes walking away really is the best option because a relationship can't be fixed, I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that if you have to walk away because TRP can’t fix it, then there’s no fucking way TRP guarantees a successful relationship.

By showing them how to achieve their goals for a fulfilling relationship, whatever they are. And noting they may have to end this relationship to get that.

If they achieved their goals and those goals did not make their current relationship successful, then there’s no guarantee it will make the next relationship successful. The possibility of entering a new relationship =/= a maintained healthy and happy relationship. Once more, we’re talking about different things.

Exactly. Their relationship was in the shitter before they approached RP. Ergo that isn't RPs fault. You might be starting to get it.

I never said that the Red Pill was what caused the relationship to get shitty, I’m just saying that TRP can't always fix it or prevent it from becoming shitty---hence, no guarantee of relationship success.

I don't need to convince you of that. Think what you wish.

I think that you should have had this thought before you decided to start this whole debate.

But sex isn't a relationship. Not for chicks it isn't.

No, not for anyone. Sex is not a relationship.

Sex =/= Relationship.

ONS =/= LTR.

Sex is a part of a relationship, it is not a relationship. It seems your argument is dependent on redefining reality.

No. He's using our techniques on his wife and (in late dread game) on other women. He can see them succeed, even if he doesn't follow up that success because he's still playing his current hand.

He can see that his techniques succeed at getting him more attention from women. He is not seeing his techniques succeed at making his relationship successful.

No it wasn't. We were discussing a scenario where the guy has decided to fold this hand.

And how did we get there? You’re the one who keeps talking about folding hands divorcees while I'm trying to talk about successful marriages and LTRs.

If that's not his goal we'll help ease him into another LTR.

According to you, the Red Pill cannot guarantee a fulfilling relationship with your current partner. So now you're in a LTR with someone new, that makes them your current partner. Therefore, the Red Pill cannot guarantee this relationship will be fulfilling, either. It cannot guarantee any more success for this relationship than it could for the last one. TRP does not guarantee relationship success.

You know what ? You'd be surprised at how many men... After a failed marriage, years with a harpy, years with no sex, followed by divorce rape... Just decide that this is what they want. Is say 80% who go through all the above choose this. We show them how.

First of all, it’s fucking weird how you guys keep throwing around the number 80% (it seems as if repeating things in your world, no matter how baseless they are, makes them “true”). Anyway, besides the fact that what you're talking about (or at least the statistics you're basing it on) is totally made up, these guys who don't want LTRs are irrelevant to a conversation about whether or not the Red Pill guarantees a successful LTR.

Maybe I should. But you asked me to represent MRP the site, our strategy, our model, our advice and the way we do things. Where that is different from my own views I presented the MRP view.

Lol, come on, what planet did that happen on? I said some shit you didn't like about your philosophy and you jumped to defend it, although your defense doesn't really relate to what I was saying at all.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]trpobservereats ass1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]trpobservereats ass10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Basically, the man behaves exactly how feminists say men should behave. Here is basically what it would look like to me:

Chores are split 50-50, or 70-30 (man-woman).
Man is open about his emotions, when he has an issue he will talk to his wife/girlfriend, even cry if its that serious
Man showers wife/girlfriend in gifts, shows appreciation for her, does what she asks. If she cries, he immediately comes over and comforts her.
Man never touches her without verbal consent, especially in regards to sex. Asks permission frequently
Man is always honest, about both himself and her, unless it will hurt her feelings (you're not fat honey).
Man wines and dines her often
Man always apologizes if he has transgressed her in some way
All household decisions are made by both parties, even if only the man works. If she tells him to sleep on the couch he does it, possibly while apologizing profusely for whatever he did.
If she ceases sex, the man cannot even think of breaking up/divorcing her for this reason on good conscience because that would mean "all I care about is sex and not about her."
Man gets in touch with his feminine side, whatever that may entail

Hopefully you get the gist

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for answering with your opinion. I see a lot of times RPers arguing that a relationship is/is not BP without defining what they mean - and since there's a lot of discrepancies between the individual beliefs of RPers, it's helpful to have a metric.

It does seem that your point is more about reciprocity, at least to me. The man is honest; is the woman? Man showers SO in gifts; does the woman? It's structured by what the man does, rather than what they both do.

Would you consider it BP if when the man is honest, the woman is? Or when the man gives gifts, the woman reciprocates in kind? What separates this relationship from a mutual give and take dynamic?

To me, with the caveat that I return the gestures in kind, this sounds fairly similar to my relationship. I guess I'm a bit baffled at how this dynamic isn't a good one.

[–]trpobservereats ass7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

It's structured by what the man does, rather than what they both do

Yes, just like TRP.

Would you consider it BP if when the man is honest, the woman is? Or when the man gives gifts, the woman reciprocates in kind?

If women typically reciprocated in kind (including with sex), TRP wouldn't have 115,000 subscribers. It is the standard in most of the world to attempt to negotiate desire - guy does more chores and is extra nice and helpful to her, she reciprocates with passion in the bedroom.

Its just that this doesn't happen in the real world because women are not keeping a mental list of all the good things you have done for them in the past and adding them up to increase their attraction to you. It should be plainly obvious this is not the case in real life.

I guess I'm a bit baffled at how this dynamic isn't a good one.

It would be, if it existed. TRP is about dealing with the world as it is, not how we would like it to be.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

I suppose when I asked about a relationship, it was implicit that I was asking about the full relationship rather than only a part of it. When building a relationship model, it's generally helpful to explain the roles of both partners, so that expectations are clearly defined. I think that's the hallmark of a successful relationship: each partner expresses their expectations, and the other partner strives to meet those expectations (assuming, of course, that the expectations aren't abusive or mentally unhealthy) because they desire to remain in the relationship.

However, I find it very fascinating that this is a dynamic that you're claiming doesn't exist. It's the basic model my and my SO's relationship is built off of - with the exception of verbal consent for sex, because we've prenegotiated the things we're not okay with; anything else is completely fair game at any point. (Well, except for while someone's cooking, because I don't want any injuries and that's how you get injuries in a kitchen.)

[–]donit3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]donit0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You feel like that checklist is the basic model you live by, but I suspect that the feeling might be an overall assumption that might be mistaken, and based on what you think it should be, rather than what it is. Of course, you could just as easily suggest that our theories are what are mistaken, so it might be interesting to delve deeper into the details of your observations in order see how they line up with the theories.

I'm saying there are certain things that are unworkable in a marriage, and so if you are making some of them work, you must have found some type of workaround for them.

Here is one: Asking your husband to do things that he wouldn't otherwise do. This create 2 issues: One is the pressure of the fact that sometimes he's going to fall short, do them poorly, not get to them, or not do them at all, which will create a lot of animosity between you.

The other issue is why is he doing it, and what does that say about him, and whether or how will his wife judge him on that.

If he's running around all the time trying to please her, trying to comply with every request, trying to appeal to her and trying to get her to like him, she's going to start losing respect for him and will start to see him as pathetic, because being a pleaser an indicator of someone who's probably going to get stepped on a lot in life. She can't afford to be with a man who is like that, because it doesn't bode well for raising a family, or doing well in society, so if they fall into that trap, she's going to start losing her attraction to him.

The other issue is there's no way to work out "equal say". When there's two of you, you can't really vote on anything, and there's no real way to divide up compromises evenly. But that's more of a difficulty than something that's going to unravel the marriage.

[–]LeaneGenova2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Here is one: Asking your husband to do things that he wouldn't otherwise do. This create 2 issues: One is the pressure of the fact that sometimes he's going to fall short, do them poorly, not get to them, or not do them at all, which will create a lot of animosity between you.

Yeah, sometimes people screw up. It happens. There was the time I asked him to wash my favorite coffee mug, and he broke it. I miss the mug, but I don't blame him. (It was an awesome mug. It said "I'm tired and I want a cookie" on it. Perfect.) But we don't build up animosity. If I'm disappointed, I say, "Hey babe? You didn't do X task like you said. I feel disappointed that you didn't do it." He'll respond with some version of "Shit, you're right. Sorry, babe." And that's that. It doesn't get brought up again, unless I later express that the current trend has upset me, made me feel like I'm not valuable. But it's not about blame, it's about asking for reassurance that he loves me. And he'll give it unstintingly, 'cause he's awesome like that.

So in a decade, I don't think I've ever had animosity about that type of thing. Even the one time he took a week to reassemble a chair, which sat in tiny pieces all through the living room. It was like walking through a damn mine field.

The other issue is why is he doing it, and what does that say about him, and whether or how will his wife judge him on that.

That seems awfully judgmental to me. If you ask someone to do something that isn't in their wheelhouse, of course they aren't going to do it perfectly. Why on earth would you judge the person for being willing to go out of their comfort zone and try something new?

The closest example I can find to that in my life is when I make something new in the kitchen, and tell him that it's the first time I've made it, it might suck, etc. And he just says, "Babe, it'll be fine. If it's bad, we'll just order pizza." That's how we handle new tasks. Reassurance and coming up with a solution.

If he's running around all the time trying to please her, trying to comply with every request, trying to appeal to her and trying to get her to like him, she's going to start losing respect for him and will start to see him as pathetic, because being a pleaser an indicator of someone who's probably going to get stepped on a lot in life. She can't afford to be with a man who is like that, because it doesn't bode well for raising a family, or doing well in society, so if they fall into that trap, she's going to start losing her attraction to him.

Why would he run around trying to supplicate me? I already like him. That's been established. Anything he does to make me happy just demonstrates that he's a kind guy, who knows what I like and the things that will tell me he loves me. (Usually candy. Or iced tea. I'm easy that way.)

I will say that he always tries to please me. I feel selfish sometimes, since if I say I want a glass of water from the kitchen, he'll automatically get up and get one for me. But I know that if he didn't want to, he wouldn't. He's good at communicating boundaries. And if he doesn't share that with me, I can't do much about it. I've got to trust that he does the things he does because he wants to.

The other issue is there's no way to work out "equal say". When there's two of you, you can't really vote on anything, and there's no real way to divide up compromises evenly.

Well, compromises by their very nature mean neither person is happy. But you find something that works. Maybe it's that this time X happens, but the next time, we make sure to do Y. Hell, that sort of compromise is why I have an hour long commute so that we can live in an area he likes. It's a pain in the ass, but it's not something I begrudge because a) we agreed to it, and b) the result is that he's happy. That just makes sense to me.

I guess I don't really see any of those things as issues. Honest communication solves all of those, and we've fought hard to get to the point that

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Aw, Poor guy.

Don't get me wrong. I hope you are both very happy, but my experience with this dynamic (even with the wonderful wife that I have) is that if the girl thinks this she is getting all she needs and desires from the relationship. She is achieving her goals.

In my experience, even with that great wife, the guy very commonly has abandoned his goals to assist the wife in acieving hers, talked himself into accepting this, and has accepted that this is what must occur to keep the sex tap on. even whilst, in the course of the relationship it is gradually getting turned down and down to the point he begins to get quite unhappy.

BP guys tend to do this deal (which we know as a covert contract). And resign themselves to weekly or monthly sex as the tap goes off.

Once you take the red pill ? Everythings back on the table.. All the sex you want.. and suddenly your goals are valid and being pursued again ! You get the partnership you really wanted and leave behind the unequal deal where you did everything for her to get the sex, and didn't really get all the sex in return you wanted making for an increasingly sad male.

Just speaking from my experience...But we find this is an extremely common experience over at MRP.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I am achieving what I need and desire from the relationship. According to him, so does he. If I can't trust him to tell me the truth, then we have larger issues that whether or not he's achieving his goals. We both have sacrificed in our personal lives to make the other happy; we both consider that part of being in a relationship.

I'm just going to trust that he's happy when he says he is, and when he communicates that he wants something different or more of something (which is currently headrubs), I'll do my best to meet it. I can assure you that sex isn't an issue in our relationship, thankfully.

I let him read your post, and while he's entertained at the idea that you feel bad for him, he said that he feels bad that people have such a negative view of relationships. Then again, he also likes sex on tap, so he's a fan of that part.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]trpobservereats ass1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]LeaneGenova1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Him being able to hurt me seriously is not sexually attractive. Granted, this is a bizarre view considering the fact that I am a masochist, so I'll try to explain my perspective. If he were to ever do anything that even seemed like real violence, I'd be walking out the door. That's not attractive, and it's not something I'll ever tolerate. He can go out and punch things if he's so inclined (he's not), but that shit stays out of the house, and out of my presence.

As far as sexually hurting me? Well, that's a turnon. But he only goes as far as I want, and if I called a stop to it today, he would never do anything to harm me.

The other thing is that I'm so short that height is just an abstraction. Everyone is taller than me. I know maybe three people shorter than me. No, two. And based upon that same logic, most of them are stronger than me. Those aren't traits I find attractive. It's merely a world truth to me that people are taller and stronger than me. Ask me to say how tall someone is, and I'll be off by half a foot every time. It's kinda bad, actually.

As far as masculinity, I honestly don't find many of the traditionally masculine traits attractive on their own. They have to be tempered by softness. Nothing melts my heart like when he plays with my nephews, or children of our friends. I find it more masculine to cast off social norms and act in an emotionally healthy way than fit within some preconceived notions of what it is to be a man.

[–]trpobserver2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Him being able to hurt me seriously is not sexually attractive

Well, of course, but him being strong enough for you to be able to say that he could easily overpower you, the question is if that is sexually attractive. Of course no woman is going to be sexually excited at the idea of unconsented assault.

As far as sexually hurting me? Well, that's a turnon.

You and most women. I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't enjoy this on some level, from spanking up to hot wax, etc. In what way is pleasure in being dominated not a sexual response to masculinity?

As far as masculinity, I honestly don't find many of the traditionally masculine traits attractive on their own. They have to be tempered by softness

And RP material would agree with that, in as much as you have to be dominant and masculine but not at the expense of her feeling uncared for and/or unsafe.

[–]LeaneGenova1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you consider it BP if when the man is honest, the woman is? Or when the man gives gifts, the woman reciprocates in kind? What separates this relationship from a mutual give and take dynamic?

The problem about the BP dating is that the man is still under the obligation to perform and to make the relationship work, while effort from the woman is more optional than anything else. There have been expectations directed at women, but since they are interpreted as traditional/sexist/patriarchal, they have been largely dropped. Now of course if you as a woman want a happy relationship, it takes two to tango, but the modern dating script is that it's generally the responsibility of the man to invest into the relationship and to make the woman happy.

It's basically a toxic mix of the inherent power imbalance in the dating scene (by default, men are more motivated to try to please women than vice versa, relevant askmen-thread), one half of the traditional dating script that is derived from that (the man as the one who has to put in the work) and the feminist social script (you mustn't have expectations towards women but be grateful for their presence alone).

Individual women who are willing to put in the same effort as is expected of men and who are realisitic in what they can reasonably get can be happy, but as I said - when it comes to expectations, that's optional.

[–]APlaceInsideMyHeadRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]haircombsnightmare4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for your honesty.

[–]haircombsnightmare0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I do know that red pillers didn't have luck with women prior to the red pill. I've seen many of them say this and it's one of the few things they say that makes complete sense. No one in a happy, secure blue pill relationship decides to go red for no reason. That said, be honest with yourself. You didn't try everything else before. Aside from how impossible that is, from what I've seen red pillers have tried little else. I've read some posts from some ex-red pillers and they all seem to have a universal trend. They were bad with women. Shy, unconfident, socially unrefined, things like that lead them to suck with women. Many become the stereotypical nice guy (something that is often admitted directly or indirectly by many current red pillers). Their nice efforts don't pay off, they get more and more frustrated with women going for "assholes" (which, I'm pretty sure is often just normal men who don't grovel at their feet). So they go to the far other extreme, TRP. The migration to it isn't slow, they don't try the middle ground first. They go straight to TRP. And TRP gives them better luck than their Nice Guy phase. What seems to happen for the ex red pillers is that they start to mellow out. They leave the anger phase, become more rational, and start to drift towards the middle. They give up their sexist views but retain the confidence. Then they become more like normal men. That seems to be the pretty common theme among these stories.

And, of course, these's the twist where the person is in a failing marriage that causes them to go to TRP.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

No one in a happy, secure blue pill relationship decides to go red for no reason.

Ahem. Case 0 right here.

They leave the anger phase, become more rational, and start to drift towards the middle. They give up their sexist views but retain the confidence. Then they become more like normal men. That seems to be the pretty common theme among these stories.

Yes. You are right. I'd say that describes easily 60-70% of red pill males. Us acceptance phase guys.

Where you are going wrong is describing us as ex red pill. We are not. We're red as the day is long. We are just no longer anger phases. Those guys you are describing are the bulk of our userbase.

Only a very small % of them go on to be ex red pill. Maybe 1% or so.

The rest stay red. They just don't post as much. Don't need to work that anger out anymore, but they're still there.

These are the posts bloopers skip over in their hurry to get to the outrage porn than anger phasers post. You can't wait to get your hatred boners good and hard. So anger phasers are like a magnet for you guys.

Meanwhile RP guys go to the same site, skip the obvious anger phase stuff and read the acceptance guys. We basically read two different subs because of it.

But no one really takes the RP goggles off. You can't. You can no longer unsee it.

How's that ex red pill sub coming along ?

Last time I checked. 3 posts over 2 weeks. Only 1 of which was an ex pill dude. He had crippling depression (both pre and post pill).

It wasn't an advert for your hypothesis. I'll tell you that much.

I've only spoken to two guys who said they were ex RP. Both retained belief in something like 60-80% of our theory. They'd just become sick of being associated with the anger phase dudes. The RP goggles stayed on.

I'm not seeing the legions of ex pillers you describe. I'm seeing them out represented by acceptance guys hundreds to one, and the ones you've got either keep their RP goggles on or are as flaky as fuck (like clinical depression guy).

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

But no one really takes the RP goggles off. You can't. You can no longer unsee it.

Truth.

[–]Yonderlander-5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you understand what I am saying here, or where I am coming from. I'll make a few points to help clear it up.

I'm not talking about guys that are still on or lurk TRP sub. None of these posts I found have ever been on TRP, and I am certainly not talking about acceptance phase guys. That's just all wrong.
I am talking about people who describe themselves as "ex red pill", or "use to be into it". People who very explicitly state that they use to follow TRP, but have since disregarded their views on relationships/women.
These are posts found on the ex red pill sub. A few of them have said that they are embarrassed for having even tried TRP. They don't come out of the woodwork often, and when they do they'll often post in odd subs.
I have no idea how many people leave TRP. I never made any claims there are legions of them.
Again, because you really seem to be running with this false assumption; I am not talking about acceptance phase guys. I am talking about guys who use to be into the red pill, but have since came to realize that women are not much more different than men. That a good relationship is one where you can cry in front of her, things like that. They are people who completely decry red pill tenets. So please, get it out of your head. It seems like wishful thinking on your part.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm aware of what you are saying. You're description, which I understood you meant to be of ex-pillers was actually a very good description of what happens to almost all of our guys. We all go through what you described, but attributed to Ex-pillers.

A very small number of them go on to reject RP. Activity indicating any large number is missing on the ex-pillers site. There seem to be a few dozen guys.

So the process you describe happens a lot. Much much more than you think. Maybe something like 40k guys have gone through that. Have felt those things, but the massive majority remain RP nonetheless.

they make the anger/acceptance distinction to describe that process, that they ended within RP.

What appears to be a tiny number take the last step and try to take the RP goggles off. They are all ex-pillers. But even then, few get them off. Both I've personally chatted to have not.

You are describing black holes. I am describing the star progression that ends in a black hole, but extremely rarely. Your end state was the black hole. Your description was the progression so many stop on before the black hole end state.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]skeetch_a_leak3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe that's probably totally accurate. The stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. It's textbook. You swing from one extreme to another, each swing getting closer to balance, like a pendulum.

You didn't try everything else before. Aside from how impossible that is, from what I've seen red pillers have tried little else.

I don't know what you've seen. But I have at least 15 books at home about having better social and romantic relationships, from multiple perspectives. I read them all, and put the advice into practice, and it failed. Except for No More Mr. Nice Guy. I tried the internet. Advice blogs, men's magazines, /r/relationships. Nothing. PUA worked, but it was so fake...always on stage, never relaxed. TRP was at the end of a long line. And most of my interactions with the other guys reveal similar stories. A long road of failure before getting to TRP.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (65 children) | Copy Link

No, I highly doubt it's the first thing a RPer tried. I doubt it's even the second, the third, the fourth, or the tenth. That's because I don't think most men are inherently emotionally detached jerks who think women are worthless but for sex. But I'm clearly a made up magical unicorn because AWALT, right?

In the terms of this discussion, I don't care that they've tried everything else. I don't care that pre TRP they had 100 dates that all went bad, 100 girlfriends who were slutty golddiggers. I don't care that maybe they had never even got that first date. I feel bad for them, and I sympathize for parts and empathize for others, but that isn't the point. Instead of realizing that it doesn't always work out, that sometimes you have to be patient, even that sometimes people die alone, that life isn't fair, that they do not have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to have sex, they turn to TRP.

When someone says they are a terper, it means one thing to me, and one thing only. That they wanted that sex so much that they were willing to practically sell their souls to get it. And THAT is why I don't like TRPers. A person who has completely taken that philosophy is someone who fundamentally flawed, who didn't have strong character in the first place. If they are willing to believe any person is essentially worthless for no other reason than their gender, something totally out of their control, then THEY are worthless, for something they chose. And I'm just as happy that they have labelled themselves so I can avoid them in the future.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

On the contrary. I liked TRP at first glance because I was tired of selling my soul for sex. I wanted an efficient way to get it, because I was tired of investing 90% of myself in relationships. I don't value sex like the most important thing in the world, or else I wouldn't seek shortcuts to it - I wanted to spend time on things that really matter to me, like studying, exercising, meditating, etc.

Following TRP is not selling your soul, it is getting it back from the sexual market. TRP even endorses seeking personal fulfillment over everything else, this part of your argument is invalid.

[–]GuitarsAreGettingOld 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to take the pill to not do this. A healthy relationship shouldn't consume you.

I had none before the pill, at least with the opposite sex. I was a needy spineless fucker, and there is no way to have a healthy relationship with someone like that. TRP might not be the only option to fix that, but damn it worked wonders.

Why not simply do this things and abstain from sex, then? If these are more important, does even TRP strategy not take time and effort away from them?

I won't dig the studies for you, but sex is proven to improve health. Also it's fun and pleasurable. I abstain when I don't get it easy, though, but TRP made it way easier than it was before.

EDIT:

If by your soul you mean your time, attention, and effort, certainly. If by your soul you use the more common definition of the central part of your being comprised of your moral values and beliefs, not so much.

I don't consider my soul being either, I just used the definition I thought you were using. Getting into my religious beliefs here would be way off-topic, so I won't go further into this.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

On the contrary. I liked TRP at first glance because I was tired of selling my soul for sex. I wanted an efficient way to get it, because I was tired of investing 90% of myself in relationships.

I had none [relationships?] before the pill, at least with the opposite sex.

I'm confused.

I was a needy spineless fucker, and there is no way to have a healthy relationship with someone like that.

Do you mean healthy relationships, above? In that case yeah. No one wants a relationship with a needy spineless woman, either.

So now that you're "fixed", have you given solid effort to trying a nonRP relationship?

I don't consider my soul being either, I just used the definition I thought you were using.

I'm curious why would you assume by 'soul' I meant your physical person? That's a very uncommon way to think of it.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm confused.

Do you mean healthy relationships, above? In that case yeah. No one wants a relationship with a needy spineless woman, either.

I meant healthy relationships. I had plenty of relationships before TRP. None of them were decent enough to last more than a year.

So now that you're "fixed", have you given solid effort to trying a nonRP relationship?

Useless question. There is no 'nonRP' relationship anymore. I don't spend mental energy thinking "oh, now I will apply this TRP technique and say this phrase and it will work!". TRP just comes naturally after you internalized the beliefs you want. I don't believe in everything TRP writes, but the things I internalized changed me beyond thinking about having a 'nonRP' relationship.

There is no way I'm going to "honey you look 1% less happy than yesterday, did I do something wrong?" again. There is no way I'm going to "oh you are going to a bar with those male friends without me? Well I better trust you and stay at home minding my own business" again.

I'm curious why would you assume by 'soul' I meant your physical person? That's a very uncommon way to think of it.

If by your soul you use the more common definition of the central part of your being comprised of your moral values and beliefs, not so much.

This, for me, is still the 'physical person'. In my concepts of 'soul', it's a thing far beyond even what's inside your mind.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't spend mental energy thinking "oh, now I will apply this TRP technique and say this phrase and it will work!". TRP just comes naturally after you internalized the beliefs you want. I don't believe in everything TRP writes, but the things I internalized changed me beyond thinking about having a 'nonRP' relationship.

Right. But for this to continue, you have to keep these beliefs. If it was impossible to change them you wouldn't have been able to internalize them in the first place. I still think it's possible to identify RP behavior and limit it if you wanted to run an experiment, but it would be difficult... Thus my asking.

Out of curiosity, which beliefs did you choose to not keep?

There is no way I'm going to "honey you look 1% less happy than yesterday, did I do something wrong?" again.

As you shouldn't, being so hypersensitive to anyone would be suffocating... I assume this is just a random example, though.

"oh you are going to a bar with those male friends without me? Well I better trust you and stay at home minding my own business"

You're ok with having to spend the rest of your life babysitting your partner?? More importantly, how can you trust a woman to raise your children but not trust her enough to let her go drink with some friends? I would think the first is a hell of a lot more important.

This, for me, is still the 'physical person'. In my concepts of 'soul', it's a thing far beyond even what's inside your mind.

This is a much more religious view than what I have of it, obviously. Though that still doesn't explain what soul you thought I was talking about. Unrelated, though. Unless you want to debate souls, I suppose.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Out of curiosity, which beliefs did you choose to not keep?

Most of the evolutionary psychology BS. "The woman is the most responsible teenager in the house", women are incapable of love (although I strongly believe boys are taught to expect much more love than any woman will ever be able to give them).

You're ok with having to spend the rest of your life babysitting your partner?? More importantly, how can you trust a woman to raise your children but not trust her enough to let her go drink with some friends? I would think the first is a hell of a lot more important.

It's not about babysitting, the incorrect part about that quote is "Well I better trust you and stay at home minding my own business". Actually, the trust part too. If the person I'm with is willing to take a 'girls night', then I might as well take a 'bros night', hit a night club and "Well honey I was kinda drunk and it so happens that I got an amazing ONS with this hot chick", wich is exactly what can happen when a girl take a night's out too. When I pull the 'bros night' card, most chicks just prefer not going out without me/invite me to join them, even when I don't say shit about the 'risk' of meeting another girl.

Curious, isn't it? It seems that it is common sense even amongst females that if you're going out without your SO, things can happen. Not applicable to plates.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Most of the evolutionary psychology BS....

Interesting. Thank you for sharing!

It's not about babysitting, the incorrect part about that quote is "Well I better trust you and stay at home minding my own business". Actually, the trust part too.

If you don't trust your partner, it's pretty much by definition that you have to babysit them, unless you just don't care that they are going to cheat on you the moment they get the chance.

It's normal to have girl nights. It's normal to have dude nights. It's not normal to cheat on your partner the moment they are out of your sight...

wich is exactly what can happen when a girl take a night's out too.

It's also possible your partner will be in a car wreck. It's possible she'll get kidnapped and murdered. Do you escort her whenever she leaves the house?

Also that did not at all answer how you can trust a woman to raise your children.

Curious, isn't it? It seems that it is common sense even amongst females that if you're going out without your SO, things can happen. Not applicable to plates.

No one I know thinks like this. Of course this is rapidly going to turn into an anecdote vs anecdote, so let's not.

Instead, it seems more sensible to pick a loyal partner than it is to have to escort them to girls' night, right? Or, does this fall under a 'all women are sluts' belief?

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Also that did not at all answer how you can trust a woman to raise your children.

I wouldn't trust anyone to raise my children without my finger on it. It could be my wife, my sister, my father. I believe both sides of a relationship need to have a strong presence in the raising of a child. Asking me if I would 'trust a woman to raise my child' is falling into gender stereotypes in wich the mother plays a much more important role in raising a child than the father.

Instead, it seems more sensible to pick a loyal partner than it is to have to escort them to girls' night, right? Or, does this fall under a 'all women are sluts' belief?

Not all women are sluts, but a trend I've seen is that the ones that take 'girl nights' without their partners tend to cheat, and then hamster it like "it was only once and I was drunk!" or "but it was a girl, it doesn't count!". Emphasis on I've seen, I can't prove this, this is a belief based on life experiences and observing my relationships and the relationships of the many men that are close to me in my life. You might have different experiences and beliefs on this, but I hold my ground when I say that life thaught me I should next girls that have fishy behavior. There are plenty of girls that don't take 'girls nights' and don't have the habit of clubbing, you just gotta search the right places.

EDIT: typos

[–][deleted]2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Asking me if I would 'trust a woman to raise my child' is falling into gender stereotypes in wich the mother plays a much more important role in raising a child than the father.

Yes, it is. I thought TRP assumed this stereo role that the woman was 'mom' while dad was the breadwinner / mostly gone. I agree with what you said.

is that the ones that take 'girl nights' ... don't have the habit of clubbing

Ah, ok, by 'girl night' you mean like a night at the club with the girlfriends, specifically... None of my girl nights involve clubs, so I misread you. Alright. I'd agree that the % of women who're likely to be slutty are higher in frequent clubbers. Debating what that % is going to be anecdotal,as you said. Agree for the most part.

"but it was a girl, it doesn't count!"

I'm sure this gem is going to hold up in court, lol.

[–]donit0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

"Now that you're "fixed", have you given solid effort to trying a nonRP relationship?

Let's have some fun with that:

Now that you've climbed up the mountain, have you given any solid effort to reverse your steps and climb back down?

Now that you've finally found a diet that makes you lose weight, have you given any effort to trying a different diet? (why in the world would he do that? If he's finally found the combination that works, and gotten in, why would he lock the door, go back outside, and try another combination? If he already knows the combination for getting in, trying something different is just asking to be locked out again.

Plus, if you know how combination locks work, the fact that it is a combination lock means that you need to know the combination in order to get in. You can't get in unless you dial the right combination. So, anything that isn't the combination, isn't going to let you in.

If you stray even slightly from the combination, the lock won't open at all. So, you don't have a choice in the way you approach it. You're efforts are confined by the alignment of the lock. THE alignment of the lock.

I think you believe there are two alignments, or two patterns in every woman, which is physically impossible, or you believe that this is the alignment of a small subset of "broken" women. But why would we waste our time trying to please a small subset of women?

And the "broken" women are actually much harder to reach because they are much more mistrusting of men, having been hurt so many times before. So they will much more aggressively shit-test us, and require us to "perform" to a much greater extent in order to win them over.

TRPers prefer the wholesome girls who were raised in traditional families and have no reason to mistrust us. And they are used to gender roles, so they're a natural fit and don't need to be verbally battled and beaten down into it. Trying deal with a broken woman is exhausting, because they are constantly fighting, challenging and testing you, to see if you're tough enough to handle the harsh conditions they came from.

Our effort is to reach the average women who make up the majority, and we are confined by the pattern of their alignment. We can debate about what their alignment is, but it would be silly to debate about whether or not it is our intent to reach them. Of course we want to reach them. That's why we're here.

TRP is our best effort to reach them, and it is the only combination we know of that works. Our experience has been that any step we take away from that results in losing the girl's attraction. It is tailored completely to what they want, what they require.

I would love to be able to treat a woman as an equal, and as a friend, because that would be so much easier. But treating her as an equal means treating her as being equal to a man. But she isn't a man, and so she doesn't want to be treated like one.

Switch the word man with giraffe, and she wouldn't want to be treated like a giraffe either, because she's not a giraffe. It's not what she is, and so treating her like one would make her very uncomfortable. She is not designed to be a giraffe, and she is not aligned that way.

So, treating a woman as an equal would be disregarding what she is, and how she is aligned, and disregarding the importance of her gender, and would interfere with her fulfilling the roles of her gender.

Treating her as a man also disregards and disrupts the polarity of her orientation, how she is oriented to interact with a man, and the orientation of her attraction, and so we've found that trying to plug her in like a man is like putting a battery in backward.

The result is immediate- whenever we try to connect with a woman in a way that isn't lined up with her polarity, her attraction begins to unravel. So, we've learned not to do that. We've learned to respect her gender, and adjust to it in a way that will fit. Because we WANT to be able to connect with them in a way that will fit.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

If you stray even slightly from the combination, the lock won't open at all. So, you don't have a choice in the way you approach it. You're efforts are confined by the alignment of the lock. THE alignment of the lock.

Except people aren't locks. Because in the actual thing about there is more than one combination. And to keep with the analogy, maybe the other combination is easier to remember, or maybe it's shorter.

Your examples are oversimplifications, as you know. There is no reason to climb a mountain backwards. I think, and I think TRP would agree for the most part based on responses here so far, there is a reason to attempt to get sex without the psychological manipulation. Would you be using it if there was a choice?

I think you believe there are two alignments, or two patterns in every woman, which is physically impossible, or you believe that this is the alignment of a small subset of "broken" women. But why would we waste our time trying to please a small subset of women?

No, not at all... I am not saying 'AWALT, but there are two "like thats"' or something. To continue with the lock analogy, I would say 'broken' women have alignments that are closer in general, but they aren't the exact same. There are non-broken women who also have that alignment, just not many.

I think most people, regardless of gender, have different preferences. However, I think being fit, being confident, and being interesting are a pretty globally desired set. This is a no brainer.

Our effort is to reach the average women who make up the majority,

This is always where it hangs up. The majority of who? Women at bars, looking for hookups? Women in college? Professional women? Married women? There are a lot of women. I'm sure TRP 'works' on the first set fairly well.[That is, you're confident and fit, and that's all you need.] The "majority", though? The majority of women are not trolling through bars and clubs on the day to day.

TRP is our best effort to reach them, and it is the only combination we know of that works. Our experience has been that any step we take away from that results in losing the girl's attraction.

This goes with the above. What women are we talking about?

I don't assume TRPers particularly enjoy being manipulative. Seriously, truly. But getting relationships/sex the 'normal' way is simply much harder than TRP - if you've been on it a long time, it wouldn't be a surprise to go back to a typical way, have a typical success/fail rate, call it a total failure and go back to TRP. (If ALL you want is sex, I'm not going to argue that TRP is the way. That doesn't seem to be the salient thought among responses so far, though.) Have there been cases where people stepped away from it, and from the set of women that it's been designed for? For how long?

I would love to be able to treat a woman as an equal, and as a friend, because that would be so much easier. But treating her as an equal means treating her as being equal to a man. But she isn't a man, and so she doesn't want to be treated like one.

I'm also not saying you need to treat her / a partner the exact way you treat your guy friends. It's a different relationship, and the way you maintain it is different. [To carry that analogy all the way, treating them the exact same would presumably mean you wanted to have sex with your guy friends. This is not the case.] Not treating her like a guy friend doesn't mean you aren't treating her as an equal.

None of these are the parts of TRP that people have problems with - it's the manipulation, the completely inhumanizing way TRP posts encourage TRPers to look at women, that ruffle feathers.

[–]donit0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

How is it psychological manipulation to adjust to their gender, and treat the the way they want us to treat them, and be the way they want us to be?

Remember, it's wasn't our idea to be like that. We had to change into it. Who are we trying to attract? The ones we find of course, which is all of them. I don't know of any type of woman who this would not be for, it's designed around them as a gender.

I believe even the staunchest feminist, although much harder to reach, would eventually fold into it because that's what she is, that's whose genes she carries. The stork didn't make her make her that way, her genes did.

Her gender is an extremely specific combination that was ironed out through millions of years of evolution. So, no temporary feel-good culture is going to override that. And it's not even making them feel good, as evidenced by all the antidepressants being taken.

A lot of the focus is on sex, but here's the thing: You can't get sex without attraction, so regardless of what kind of relationship you build, or how long you date, or how long you stay married, so it all comes back to the same thing: You have to deal with the person's orientation in order to have them be attracted to you.

So, it doesn't matter if it's a girl you just met, or a woman you've been married to for years. Attracting her is the same process, and so that's what this is all about.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

When you say 'RP', what does that entail? As in, which parts do you hold true? What do you mean when you say 'adjust'? There's another poster that pulled the long haul in this chain too and we eventually reached the point where he said he didn't keep what appear to be central tenets to it. When I say 'manipulation' I'm talking about things like dread game, which are literally psychological tricks. Humans don't like uncertainty or fear, they work on both genders.

I believe even the staunchest feminist, although much harder to reach, would eventually fold into it because that's what she is, that's whose genes she carries. The stork didn't make her make her that way, her genes did.

The implication being that we humans are ruled by our genes only...? This is easily tested using nature / nurture experiments, which pretty much universally show it's not all one or the other.

[–]donit1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

To me, RP is just the realization that we are different genders, with different polarities, and so we respond to different things. These guys used to go around trying to treat women as equals, which means treating them the way men like to be treated, but although that works well in business environments, they didn't find much success doing that in relationships.

And so The Red Pill is the realization that men and women are different, and that you can't treat them as interchangeable "persons" in a relationship, because they don't work that way. They each have their own orientations and polarizations, and so you can't plug them all in the same way. They're sort of like batteries, you have to connect to them the right way, with respect to their poles.

And if you try to connect one the wrong way, you see it immediately because their whole mood changes from positive to negative. But we were never able to figure that out, because we were treating everyone the same, and never thought that their behavior might be a result of that. But now we know it was, and that a lot of issues that seemed like the fault of the other person, was really just someone plugged in the wrong way.

I don't see anything wrong with dread game. I searched for examples, and they were mostly stories about things that happened that caused the girl's attraction to spike. One was a guy who got a text from another girl, another was a guy who's girlfriend saw him talking to a girl, and another was a guy telling his girlfriend about a girl who talked to him.
And then there was one where a guy finally got fed up and told his wife he was going to divorce her, and she suddenly jumped back into her roles. Unfortunately for her, as well as for him, it wasn't a manipulation. He really was fed up and so he followed through anyway. But his lesson was that "dread game" probably would have saved his marriage if he had had the social skills to pull it off.

Dread game is something that sounds like it would work and so guys talk about using it. But since the examples are always things that happened that were out of their control, trying to make it happen is easier said than done and for most of them is probably just a pipe dream. It's one of those things where guys see something that happens, and then oversimplify it in their mind, thinking "I could do that". Sure you could.

My thinking is if a guy was ever able to pull it off, and wound up being awarded undeserved points in attractiveness, since doing it would require exceptional social skills in order to pull it off, even if you took the points away from his attractiveness, you would have to add them back on for his social skills, and so it would be a wash because women put just as much weight on social skills anyway.

I was just recently recommending it to a woman who's fiance's wedding plans were beginning to fade. He doesn't talk about it much anymore. So, I was thinking that's a scenario where maybe she could do something in order to amp up his attraction again, like drawing focus to dread-game situations, such as whenever she catches men checking her out or talking to her.

But that is difficult to do without having it come across as contrived. If she tells her fiance that a man was staring at her, he might question in his mind: why is she telling me this? And so if it's done sloppily, it's very easy for it to backfire. You have to sort of let it happen on its own, and maybe just try to put yourelf into the situations. One guy was discussing how when his girlfriend did it by telling him about a doctor in her class, he figured it was a test to see how he would react.

On one hand, his girlfriend probably wants him to be jealous, give her more attention, and become more attracted to her, but on the other hand (according to his theory), she wants to see how he reacts, and whether he is intimidated by it, in order to gauge how much confidence he has in himself.

The opposite of dread game is security, but too much of that can create a lot of other problems as well as boredom. Dating coaches refer to it as "giving away your power", which means giving away our mystique, your intrigue, your answer, basically. It's like telling someone the ending of the movie, which ruins the movie for them.

So, I think dread game is just about being coy about your intentions, keeping the other person on their toes, or watching out for situations where someone else shows interest in you, and then making sure your partner is aware of it.

Dread game can build up a lot of anticipation, and have her wondering does he or doesn't he? and so they're the same type of situations that create excitement and butterflies, and so I would think using it would be something people could do to make the relationship much more exciting for the other person. It seems more like a tool couples could use to improve their relationship more than anything else.

[–][deleted]1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

To me, RP is just the realization that we are different genders, with different polarities, and so we respond to different things. These guys used to go around trying to treat women as equals, which means treating them the way men like to be treated, but although that works well in business environments, they didn't find much success doing that in relationships.

As before, the goals of RP aren't really the problem. It's not evil (whatever that means) to want to have sex, nor to have multiple partners. It's the means of getting there that I find distasteful.

Dread game can build up a lot of anticipation, and have her wondering does he or doesn't he? and so they're the same type of situations that create excitement and butterflies, and so I would think using it would be something people could do to make the relationship much more exciting for the other person. It seems more like a tool couples could use to improve their relationship more than anything else.

I guess this is where we end, then. I just can't see this in this way, as a tool. It's intentionally causing someone a great deal of anxiety and, at the point you need it, only treating the symptom of a failing relationship. But this is a moral / personal / logical / whatever difference, so I'm just gonna leave this at this.

As an aside, I wanted to say thanks for the talk! This was pretty damn chill compared to the other conversations that were going on.

[–]donit1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, I still think there's a chance, since there's a point I left out in an effort to simplify things. The point is, there are a lot of men are out there who are doing something wrong that is related to dread game. It's the way they do everything within the relationship, but if they do it the wrong way, it has the opposite effect of dread game, and actually damages the relationship instead of making it exciting.

Doing things the wrong way takes the spark out of the relationship, and turns anything that would normally be fun and exciting into boring and predictable.

Cat string analogy: If you hand a feather to a cat, he's not going to want it. He might take it in his mouth, but he's just going to put it down and look at you.

But if you tie a string to the feather and begin to pull it away, he suddenly wants it. It's the same feather, but its proximity determined the cat's attraction to it.

Dread game is understanding that if you always just give your feather to your partner, you're going to make them get bored with it, and so it's about knowing that their desire is affected by the way you give it to them.

This includes sex, attention, and everything you do together. So, I think it's an important thing to consider, because it's a real aspect of the way humans, as well as all mammals are, so if you accidentally give it to them the wrong way, they're just not going to want it.

And so anytime you've ever noticed that someone with you was getting bored, you were probably dealing with some aspect of this phenomenon, and so I don't think dealing with it is an option.

[–]donit1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know what? I'm going to come over to your side. Although I think there are a lot of valuable relationship-enhancing techniques that come under the heading of "dread game", I think the heading itself is wrong because it denotes a different type of emotion than the one we're trying achieve.

We don't need the woman to dread losing us in order to for her to value keeping us. And most aspects of dread game are centered around building value, not threatening to take it away.

So, the image of a poor, shy woman crying her eyes out and keeping a white-knuckled, nervous grip on her chair, worried about losing her guy is unfounded. Nobody's goal is that, and none of the TRP advisors are recommending for anyone to threaten to leave or bully a woman into submission.

Threatening intensifies what you have, but if the guy's problem is that he's lost his wife's attraction, threatening her is not going to bring it back. You can't threaten someone into attraction. So, all the examples that come under the heading of "dread game" are actually value-building techniques.

Talking to other women does more to build your value than it does toward making her afraid of losing you. She knows you're not going to leave her for the waitress/hostess/barmaid so that's not even a factor.

So, we need a new term for the "dread game" techniques, such as displaying social skills, popularity, and attractiveness to women. We will call it Social Shine.

[–]CisWhiteMaelstrom 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]skeetch_a_leak8 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sumant286 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]CisWhiteMaelstrom 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Then why are you getting in the way of people trying to prevent that?

I'm sorry, by debating with people on a debate sub I'm getting in the way of TRPers spinning their plates? Please enlighten me here.

Or is there absolutely no substance to this claim and you figure some useless pipe dream can counter the obvious criticism of your ideas?

The criticism being that a TRPer would die alone without TRP. Really? Do you know what the rate of never-married people is? Here. It's ugly, and it's from the previous Census, but close enough. 4%. A measly 4% of people don't ever get married, and some of those are gay couples. Sure, "that doesn't say anything about the relationship!" and it doesn't. But it remains that only four percent of people, for whatever reason, can't convince another person to marry them. I'm willing to make that gamble.

Additionally, having an LTR / getting married is not a guarantee that you won't die alone, is it? There is every chance that you will outlive your spouse. Life isn't fair.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry, by debating with people on a debate sub I'm getting in the way of TRPers spinning their plates? Please enlighten me here.

Now, but with your mindset you're part of the problem, not of the solution - because our social imperative can be summed up as "don't do what inconveniences women" - even if abstaining from taking that risk could be hurtful to yourself.

My personal experience: because I internalized that imperative, dating was pretty much an impossibility for me. I was unwilling to take that risk because I didn't want to be "that guy" but rather behave like I thought a real man was supposed to (that social script was a thing before google existed, so...). I also internalized the idea that I wasn't supposed to expect much of women, since they were great by default and my task was to make them happy, which should be reward enough in itself. I also learned a lot about "what women really want" which was for all intents and purposes bullshit.

Redpill stuff is the only set of ideas that covers practically all these issues. If I have to read that women are assholes on a regular basis, so be it.

The criticism being that a TRPer would die alone without TRP. Really?

No, the criticism is that you obviously prefer people to dying alone than to adopt TRP ideas.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Now, but with your mindset you're part of the problem, not of the solution - because our social imperative can be summed up as "don't do what inconveniences women" - even if abstaining from taking that risk could be hurtful to yourself.

What problem? I'm assuming you're talking about this "inconveniences women" bit... I'm sure that's some AWALT something that I just haven't gotten to yet. What is the 'solution' to this problem?

My personal experience: because I internalized that imperative, ........... "that guy" but rather behave like I thought a real man

That is an interesting post, but it's a flawed premise. I'm not, and I don't think the typical BPer is, saying women should be idolized. Additionally, check what schass said. I would add to his post that we live in a time where there is a radical feminism movement that gets all sorts of media attention. This is simply no surprise, this radical feminism has been going for some 10 years at least, it's established. Google shows what's out there - in 10 years, the MR peeps will probably have the same attention.

I also internalized the idea that I wasn't supposed to expect much of women, since they were great by default and my task was to make them happy

This is the more important bit. No one has shown me that you need to be psychologically manipulative to not do this.

No, the criticism is that you obviously prefer people to dying alone than to adopt TRP ideas.

No. Your ASSUMPTION is, again, that the only way to not die alone for the person in question would be to embrace TRP. As I backed up with data on my last post, in terms of how many people get married at some point, that is extremely unlikely. This is also not an answer to the counterpoint that even being in an LTR is no guarantee that you won't die alone.

Why are we all so focused on dying alone, ITT? Have I hit on some RP phobia, or what? I don't think you are all old men. You have PLENTY of time to find new partners. If you're out spinning plates, you're in the process of doing so, if TRP is to be believed. Why is everyone so sensitive about this point?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Which leaves what I said, which you didn't address. I'm not going to sit and pick apart random stuff that gets pulled from the web. Why am I doing all the work, here?

You said quite bluntly that it just happens, and the subtext of your charming comment was "and that's preferable to people adapting TRP ideas, even if it helps".

That's because it does just happen. People die. By definition one half of every partnership will die alone. Usually the woman, as they tend to live longer.

And for time #3, you haven't addressed that a scant minority don't marry, without RP assistance. If you believe that women choose the best mate in terms of finances and 'alphaness', do you really believe you're in the bottom 2%?

The subtext of the comment was not "I hope you all die alone", as everyone has said. Essentially, it's that I can't respect that you gave in to the 'easy way', which I personally find morally lax, especially when I KNOW and CAN PROVE that most people do find someone. I would have thought my opinion would be meaningless, because I'm just a random anon on the web, but damn y'all bit into it.

You just served as a flawless example of what redpillers assume about women: That from their perspective, men being thrown under the bus (whatever form this takes, in the context at hand it's men not finding happiness) is preferable when the alternative would require inconveniencing women.

This is ridiculous, particularly in regards to what we're talking about. Women don't exist in a vacuum. For every man who doesn't marry (doesn't find happiness, if you will) there is also a woman. There are more women than men. It WOULD BE an inconvenience for women if men didn't marry, because no human wants to die alone, and we outnumber you in all age brackets after 24.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

And for time #3, you haven't addressed that a scant minority don't marry, without RP assistance. If you believe that women choose the best mate in terms of finances and 'alphaness', do you really believe you're in the bottom 2%?

You see, I have a couple of friends who also did very poorly in the dating scene. Notoriously dateless until their late 20s/early 30s. For the last few years they started to get into relationships.

This isn't success. These guys weren't terribly unattractive (in fact, I've seem similarly-looking guys get off more often more reliably with better-looking women) - they just had no tangible idea of what women respond positively to. They probably believed stuff like this. If you are blindly stumbling through your dating life because you have no idea about women, depending on dumb luck (meeting a woman who is attracted to "who you are" is pretty damn rare), you aren't successful. If you get married at the end, this just means that you're not single anymore, and for some the ordeal just begins at that point: because getting married to a low quality (for different markers of quality than just looks) woman after an extended period of datelessness isn't succeeding, it's just another kind of failure.

Which is by the way also what TRP is about a lot - not only to get dates and relationships one's own way, but also to avoid getting into the wrong kind of relationships with the wrong women.

he subtext of the comment was not "I hope you all die alone", as everyone has said

I didn't take it as such. I took it as "it's preferable to men adopting a redpill mindset, which would inconvenience women". Which I also read between the lines here:

Women don't exist in a vacuum. For every man who doesn't marry (doesn't find happiness, if you will) there is also a woman. There are more women than men. It WOULD BE an inconvenience for women if men didn't marry, because no human wants to die alone, and we outnumber you in all age brackets after 24.

Again, this only about caring what inconveniences women - as long as the guys pick up the tab at the end of the day (marry some woman), who cares what their life was like before. Or after it. Here you're doing again what TRP repeatedly points out: you don't care about how the actions of the man impact his own life, but that of the women around him (and of course he should place their priorities over his). If you ever read the term "feminine imperative", you just gave us a great example of it.

That TRP may help them live fulfilled lives, experience what the dating scene has to offer them (which probably leads to broken hearts here and there... but so do women's actions), and finally settle down with a woman they choose (and not just a woman who happened to pick him), all this doesn't register. It's just that all the stuff TRP suggests and which basically amounts to men wrestling back control over their romantic lives instead of putting them at the mercy of women naturally comes at the expense of the latter, and we can't have that.

Essentially, it's that I can't respect that you gave in to the 'easy way',

Since when is doing all the self improvement stuff advocated at TRP "easy"? Getting ripped and successful doesn't just happen by snipping your fingers (I don't make any estimations about how many redpillers manage to actually go through with it). If there's one thing TRP makes easier, it's not beating yourself up about doing stuff women don't like. Like not making their priorities your own.

[–][deleted]1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm kind of surprised to see you back again. I don't really want to get back into this too much, as for the most part it's run it's course. So this is it. However -

1a) People (men and women) don't select purely for looks. Again, get buff, get confident, get interesting (GBGCGI) is good advice. If you are going from having zero clue to trying to improve dating success that's an excellent start. This doesn't require the rest of TRP tenets.

1b) You are assuming the men aren't low quality themselves. Yes, people (men and women) try to find partners who are about as attractive as they are, where attractiveness includes more than physical considerations. This isn't rocket science. Should unemployed fat women should get super swole lawyer boyfriends? Of course not. Same thing.

1c)

"it's preferable to men adopting a redpill mindset, which would inconvenience women".

How does TRP inconvenience women, as a whole? The women who get exposed to it, who by and large are damaged, are harmed, not inconvenienced. The rest of us don't care what you do.

2) Seriously? I literally prefaced that with this:

This is ridiculous, particularly in regards to what we're talking about.

It was clearly a hypothetical consideration of the logical outcome what 'don't inconvenience women' would mean to women, who apparently don't want to be inconvenienced. I was working in your framework.

3) The GBGCGI is not in question. It's the rest of TRP that's toxic / easy. It's about getting as much sex as possible, and if to do that you have to crush a woman's self identity, or even rape her, that's ok.

[–]thedeti 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Whoever told you that is a moron. No sane person is going to tell you that women have one setting, which is 'sympathize'.

Remember this the next time you are told of blue pillers/women's infinite capacity for empathy at the plight of others beneath them.

Remember this the next time women's limitless capacity for nurturing and caring is extolled.

Ok, now back up your work. Point out where BP said women were angels without sin to the readers, please.

EDIT:

capacity for empathy at the plight of others beneath them.

Men are "beneath" women, now?? Or just people who need TRP? I think neither. I don't like TRPers, for the reasons I said, but that doesn't make me better. Thinking you are better than someone based on moral standing is being a dumbass. Morals aren't universal.

An aside - sympathize is the word you're looking for. Obviously as a female I can't empathize with a male on all sexual matters, we're wired completely differently. I can and do empathize with having dated crappy partners who hurt, during and after the relationship.

[–]xXx__Yolo__xXxRed-leaning4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Life is fair ... TRP adjusts the moral compass and understands that life is fair, your sense of justice, your morals, your expectations are off.

This is exactly what I am talking about. While there is no 'universal' set of beliefs, certain values are commonly accepted to be 'good'. Murdering is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong. If you picked 100 random people in the world and asked them what a 'good' person was, I would guarantee "someone who treats others poorly to get sex" is not going to be a common answer.

On a side note your knowledge of TRP too, if I would belief the same things about TRP that you do then I would hate it.

If you don't, then you've blocked out the shitty parts and kept the shiny bits. It's not a case of "the other good stuff it says balances out" - it's a case of "this one central tenet is so bad that there is nothing that can redeem the rest". I'm not saying getting fit and being interesting are bad. I'm saying it doesn't make up for the scummy parts.

[–]APlaceInsideMyHeadRed Pill Man7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This then leads into a discussion of what is considered poor treatment.

Yes, it would. Again, ask a random person what they think of how you treat your plates / LTR - what would the response be?

Secondly, I don't understand why so many people feel the need to shit on TRP.

I think it's toxic, to TRPers in addition to their partners. Who would pick having a partner they had to carefully manage to keep with them and who only loved their persona, over a partner that really wanted them? By using TRP TRPers get comfy with these what I logically assume to be broken women, thus taking them out of the game where they were playing for partners who might love them.

How can you convince someone to stop using the best strategy to achieve what he wants?

I'm pretty sure no one who uses TRP is going to be convinced away from it by some random person on the internet. Nor was I trying to - the original post asked 'Does BP think we tried this first' and later 'I tried everything else'. That's what I was answering, though I did get overzealous.

[–]APlaceInsideMyHeadRed Pill Man5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Ask any random person what they think"

Why is a random person's assessment of how I live my life valuable to me? I imagine asking a random person what they thought of Socrates during his lifetime would elicit a negative response as opposed to the overwhelmingly positive response that modern scholars project. People tend to agree with whatever social norms are floating around at the time, and these change over time. The fact that they are normal doesn't make them right.

"Taking them out of the game where they were playing for partners who might love them"

On the contrary, plate spinning practices and general TRP advice of being more social and flirtatious will vastly increase the chances of meeting someone who might actually love us. However, we recognize that love is based on hormones and desire to produce offspring. Effectively, we game the system to get many women to love us.

It seems odd to me the idea that terpers believe women don't love you for you. "You" is not some pseudo-enlightened soul like entity in this case, but your actual self, that is your accomplishments, your persona, your beliefs, and your physical body. That is what I love in women, and that's what I believe women love in me.

Why hold on to this Disney idea of love completely unconnected with the physical?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why is a random person's assessment of how I live my life valuable to me?

It isn't. But I'm not the one saying TRP isn't toxic waste. If it wasn't then most random people you picked wouldn't say it was negative. That's what I'm getting at.

People tend to agree with whatever social norms are floating around at the time, and these change over time. The fact that they are normal doesn't make them right.

Granted, normal =/= right. Take any person from history and ask them. You'll find a couple who agree. Now look at the civilization they had / have and ask yourself if that is something you'd want to live in.

On the contrary, plate spinning practices and general TRP advice of being more social and flirtatious will vastly increase the chances of meeting someone who might actually love us.

This is only true if you're spinning women who are capable of really loving you / aren't broken. Otherwise, a chance of 0% multiplied a thousand times is still going to end with 0%.

However, we recognize that love is based on hormones and desire to produce offspring.

There isn't any human emotion that isn't based on hormones, so this is a pretty broad statement. Also not one a rational person is going to disagree with. As for the second part, so if you don't want offspring...? What then?

"You" is not some pseudo-enlightened soul like entity in this case, but your actual self, that is your accomplishments, your persona, your beliefs, and your physical body. ...

Your actual self? Your actual self thinks that all women are lying, cheating sluts who only want you because you're the boss? Also, your actual persona IS the boss? By TRP tenets, natural followers of TRP don't really need to be advised, yeah? Why would you be on TRP?

Thus - with the assumption you have changed your natural self to be an 'alpha' - she isn't loving your actual self. Your accomplishments, your body, your fake persona/self that you put forward, sure. That means when she finds someone with better accomplishments and a better body who is also 'alpha' she's done with you. Or, when you get tired of being someone you're not and you drop the 'alpha' persona.

Why hold on to this Disney idea of love completely unconnected with the physical?

I don't think love is entirely separate from the physical, as mentioned above, nor did I say that. Your person is included in 'you' when I say someone who loves you for you. What you described WAS the Disney love, that is the love of everything the other person is. What you have when one side is putting a fake front forward is only going to end in heartbreak.

[–]a-ko 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't want to comment on this sub, as I generally absolved myself of TRP for a while due to some of the insults hurled my way and the overly political agenda of some of the people in the sub.

But the core of TRP, which is to become a better man and to respect yourself as a person, resonated with me in a way that most of these other philosophies have not.

When a woman says that she loves "confidence" in a man, what exactly does that mean? It's fairly common knowledge that most women will not pursue a guy that is showering her with gifts and praise, especially if he offers nothing in the dark triad department. This is something that is a well established fact.

Red pill offers a solution to men to focus on themselves, become the man that women desire, and to maximize both personal and business success. Red Pill strategy works far beyond just sexual relationships, although sexual relationships are a strong motivator.

If you don't think that all women are 'lying, cheating sluts'--take a look at the top song charts of recent times. Taylor Swift's songs, "Blank Space", "Shake it off", especially. As of May 2015, Blank Space sold around 4 Million copies in the US.

While certainly a myriad of different women approach these situations differently, the core feelings of these two songs resonate very strongly with a big portion of the population.

It's the popularity of these songs that has driven me back to the TRP subreddits.

Red Pill does work, it worked for me last year when pursuing a woman; and while I ultimately slipped and failed on that process with her, I did end up getting sex out of the deal. I would have actually liked to have much more than that with her. And I think most TRP men would admit the same, but many men hit TRP at multiples of different lives.

It's not just through music by which these ideas become popular. Just look at the 1999 film "American Beauty", a classic case of TRP mindset. Wife is unhappy with husband because he cannot be the 'man' that she wants, she cheats and has an affair; and in retaliation for that he has his midlife crisis and buys an expensive car and [almost] nails the hot young cheerleader.

The very core concept of TRP isn't just something that the modern internet junkies and 'neckbeards' and all thought up. This is stuff that has gone on for generations. We all know it intrinsically.

I wish I could 'be myself' around people, I truly do. TRP doesn't teach you to lie about who you are. TRP teaches you to become who you want to be. Then you're not lying. You're that person.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

But I'm clearly a made up magical unicorn because AWALT, right?

No, you're worse. You one of the self-righteous "I am such a good person because I feel for others"-types, yet your empathy is practically worthless because it's entirely conditional and fully depends on how comfortable you are with something - and if you aren't (regardless of how helpful it may be for the other person), it's wrong and should be avoided, perioded. Which ironically does make you a grade A example of AWALT. Why do I think that this is the case? Well...

Instead of realizing that it doesn't always work out, that sometimes you have to be patient, even that sometimes people die alone, that life isn't fair, that they do not have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to have sex, they turn to TRP.

Translation: "if what you tried doesn't work, accept your lot in life. Even if it means perpetual solitude. Just don't do stuff that offends me!" Well, let me guess - you aren't struck with perpetual solitude, are you? You don't actually have an inkling about what what you are not only suggesting, but practically demanding here means? And yet you do it? ...and you guys have the galls to tells us that female solipsism doesn't exist.

Apart from the fact that this is a gross misrepresentation. Men who tink there is a god given right to sex, relationships, whatever, don't jump through hoops. They don't try to improve or adjust their behavior in order to be what they think makes them more desirable (whether their idea of it is fundamentally wrong or pretty accurate). The mindset you've just described I've almost exclusively seen in people who always got what they wanted without having to put in much effort. Who ironically were way more often women than men.

That they wanted that sex so much that they were willing to practically sell their souls to get it. And THAT is why I don't like TRPers. A person who has completely taken that philosophy is someone who fundamentally flawed, who didn't have strong character in the first place. If they are willing to believe any person is essentially worthless for no other reason than their gender, something totally out of their control, then THEY are worthless, for something they chose.

Now even if that was 100% true, you should ask yourself why (everything else being equal) such an approach works better than being compliant, friendly, accomodating, respectful etc. Even if the latter comes with an ulterior motive (which according to you guys is of course sex and nothing else, i.e. the purest form of objectification), why is it that the case? Why works being selfish better than being self-sacrificing?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You one of the self-righteous "I am such a good person because I feel for others"-types, yet your empathy is practically worthless because it's entirely conditional and fully depends on how comfortable you are with something - and if you aren't (regardless of how helpful it may be for the other person), it's wrong and should be avoided, perioded.

What part of my statement said "I feel for you"? What I said is that I don't think AMALT. That doesn't mean "I am a good person" or "I feel for others." In fact, everyone else has been quite willing to point how what a horrible person I am for NOT empathizing. I said, quite simply, I think embracing TRP in all it's glory means you're a bad person, not that I'm better. It's your assumption that 'good' is better than 'bad'. You are also assuming I think I am a good person. You're assuming a lot of things in general.

"if what you tried doesn't work, accept your lot in life. Even if it means perpetual solitude. Just don't do stuff that offends me!"

You guys are hilarious in this chain. Do I sound offended? If anything I'm amused. I'm having a debate. On a sub for debating. If you didn't want to debate your belief, why would you come here?

Well, let me guess - you aren't struck with perpetual solitude, are you?

Your guess would be incorrect. After going through what I would assume to be a similar gambit of bad relationships I decided to stop trying until I was older. I'm not in any hurry, I have an expected 60 years left to find someone. And if I don't, I'm at peace with that... I'm not certain why we're all so scared to die alone ITT. It's how you lived that matters. My opinion, anyway.

and you guys have the gall

I'm not 'you guys', I'm me. If you took a look around this particular chain, you'd notice the lack of BP posters.

Men who tink there is a god given right to sex, relationships, whatever, don't jump through hoops. They don't try to improve or adjust their behavior in order to be what they think makes them more desirable (whether their idea of it is fundamentally wrong or pretty accurate).

This would be a fairly solid argument, but. People in general can think they have a right to something and still work for it - look at college. The common wisdom is that you do your time, you get a good job. It's a prevalent mindset in younger people, as I assume we can all agree. They still participate in clubs, get good grades, and network, ie they work for it. And when that pays off, everyone is happy. When it doesn't, they are angry - I'd argue THAT is thinking you have a God given right. Being angry when the work doesn't get rewarded.

Now even if that was 100% true, you should ask yourself why (everything else being equal) such an approach works better than being compliant, friendly, accomodating, respectful etc.

Well, didn't that come from left field? What you quoted has nothing to do with your response here. Not once have I said that manipulating people doesn't work, I've said it doesn't generate high quality partners. I assume you're going for a AWALT in that they all want assholes, but as I've said every time it comes up, if you act like an ass you will get women who like asses. This should not be a surprise. You're also assuming THAT IT IS TRUE. I'm sure it works better on the random women who hang out in bars. NAWALT.

Why works being selfish better than being self-sacrificing?

Because this is the entirety of TRP? And I would disagree. People who come to TRP are 'betas', right? They aren't just self-sacrificing, they are not confident usually, and perhaps not 'interesting' or in shape. There is no proof that you need the rest of TRP after you have these bits.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't mean "I am a good person" or "I feel for others." [...] You are also assuming I think I am a good person.

Hmmm...

That's because I don't think most men are inherently emotionally detached jerks who think women are worthless but for sex. But I'm clearly a made up magical unicorn because AWALT, right?

Could have fooled me, because this looked to me as if you expected to be deserving of brownie points for coming to that conclusion (and your self-righteous indignation about men swallowing the pill only exacerbates that impression). Which is also the reason for the vitriolic reaction in this thread here - it's not that the redpillers take offense at you holding ethically questionable views, it's because of you doing so yet at the same time you think you have the moral high ground (yeah, deny that as much as you want - if that wasn't the case, you would have saved your rant).

You guys are hilarious in this chain. Do I sound offended? If anything I'm amused.

Yup, your comment made it abundantly clear that you don't consider men adapting TRP ideas amusing. In fact, merely "offensive" doesn't even remotely describe it.

After going through what I would assume to be a similar gambit of bad relationships I decided to stop trying until I was older. I'm not in any hurry, I have an expected 60 years left to find someone. And if I don't, I'm at peace with that.

What I extracted from your comment:

unless you're highly optimistic regarding your life expectancy, you're in your 20s (alternatively you have factored in further medical progress)
you alread had several relationships, though the experience wasn't exactly great

...and you're so disenchanted with the experience that you could imagine to go without.

In other words: you actually do have no clue what perpetual solitude feels like. Thanks for proving my point.

I'm not 'you guys', I'm me. If you took a look around this particular chain, you'd notice the lack of BP posters.

"You guys" is quite apt since we're talking about female solipsism. Because this is one of the redpill concepts about women that bluepillers in general consider most offensive after "women are children" and "shit testing".

When it doesn't, they are angry - I'd argue THAT is thinking you have a God given right. Being angry when the work doesn't get rewarded.

(a) God-given rights are rights you don't have to work for, but that's semantics. (b) The anger. Here I suspect yet another empathy disconnect: it doesn't come from guys not getting what they wanted despite working for it; the actual redpiller anger comes from the realization that they effectively wasted their use because they were sold a pipe dream when it came to acquiring knowledge about dating.

I assume you're going for a AWALT in that they all want assholes

No I am going for AWALT in that nobody really wants the guys who supposedly are the best thing since sliced bread; and that even being a sub-par human being generates more attraction than that. Maybe not for all, but at least for some. Which surely beats "almost none" for notorious white knights.

There is no proof that you need the rest of TRP after you have these bits.

Yeah... you see, I could explain you why it did, but you wouldn't accept it anyway. It's not that I needed TRP to come to these conclusions, but the conclusions I came to the hard way (and which took me far longer than they would had I had access to TRP-style stuff) turned out to be perfectly redpill-compatible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Could have fooled me, because this looked to me as if you expected to be deserving of brownie points for coming to that conclusion (and your self-righteous indignation about men swallowing the pill only exacerbates that impression).

I'm not responsible for what you assume. This isn't "self righteous indignation", I wasn't yelling as I typed; I was rolling my eyes for that part, and sighing for the rest. That was an explanation of what I think, which is quite different from TRP so naturally came off ranty, I suppose.

holding ethically questionable views

Cute. Surely you don't think that most people are on board with manipulating others for sex.

so yet at the same time you think you have the moral high ground (yeah, deny that as much as you want - if that wasn't the case, you would have saved your rant).

Again, you must have read it in an angry tone. It's not a rant. It's how I think of it.

AWALT in that nobody really wants the guys who supposedly are the best thing since sliced bread

You're speaking for a lot of people, here. Seeing as 'betas' do by and large end up married, clearly someone does want them.

Yeah... you see, I could explain you why it did, but you wouldn't accept it anyway.

No, I wouldn't, because that isn't proof, it's anecdotal. This is related to the 'scientific method' talk I see tossed around - where are TRP's controls? That's what I would like to see. Because if we're assuming everyone who isn't TRP is a beta, the betas are doing pretty good in terms of getting married to people.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

Instead of realizing that it doesn't always work out, that sometimes you have to be patient, even that sometimes people die alone, that life isn't fair, that they do not have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to have sex, they turn to TRP.

So learning how to be the type of person women want to sleep with is "selling your soul"? I mean, we got a pretty goo education on the fact that life isn't fair and we don't have a god given right to sex.

I honestly can't see any sympathy in what you're saying. How could I when you will only care about someone's misfortune if they accept that misfortune as their poor but inescapable lot in life?

If they are willing to believe any person is essentially worthless for no other reason than their gender,

I think you've spent too much time reading BP caricatures of TRP, rather than finding out what it's actually about. There's no point of contact, where an actual discussion could take place, so this is where I leave you. Cheers.

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

You'll have to take my word for it, but if anyone has those good genes, I qualify. I even have proof that I make adorable, intelligent, and hardy babies.

But having the genes didn't do shit to help my situation.

[–]donit1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I understand what "good genes" means. I have them. Again, you'll have to take my word for it.

or you were fucking up so badly with your behaviors that you undid any points you earned from your looks.

Bingo.

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]skeetch_a_leak2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]skeetch_a_leak3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]donit1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So learning how to be the type of person women want to sleep with is "selling your soul"?

Learning? You are transforming yourselves into that person. If that person was a sociopathic monster it'd still be going on, because TRP is all about results and 'using the scientific method' to get more sex. Whatever gets the most sex wins! Even if RP condones raping people to do it. [Admittedly, not every-day common, but it is something that I see fairly often.]

I honestly can't see any sympathy in what you're saying. How could I when you will only care about someone's misfortune if they accept that misfortune as their poor but inescapable lot in life?

I DON'T have any sympathy for TRPers. I have empathy for people who don't have the greatest luck in the dating game but keep trying. I was not saying you have to accept an "inescapable lot in life", I was saying escaping it by turning to RP makes you no longer worthwhile as a human being. Your character is worth a hell of a lot more to me than your muscles.

we don't have a god given right to sex

This is a deep-rooted belief in RP, even if it isn't recognized overtly. It's buried under all the other pretty words about how RP isn't about getting sex, it's "improving yourself". It shows up every time someone says "I didn't get any until I unplugged!" The inherent belief is that 'not getting any' is something that is wrong. I do see lots of posts on RP saying things to the effect of "if you aren't getting sex when you want it, how you want it, you're doing it wrong".

I think you've spent too much time reading BP caricatures of TRP, rather than finding out what it's actually about. There's no point of contact, where an actual discussion could take place, so this is where I leave you. Cheers.

No. You have spent so much time there that you don't realize that the other crap they talk about is just to paint over it. After all, no one would hop on if the message was "Hating women gets you laid!" So instead, it starts with the 'getting swole', which is a good thing, and when that has good results a pre-TRPer naturally comes back for more. Then it slides into the woman-hating bullcrap. Do you TRP types not realize if all you espoused was getting fit and getting interesting hobbies no one would give a damn? That's exactly what EVERYONE does if they are trying to up their dating game.

Additionally, this wasn't looking for a discussion in the first place. This is you saying "How dare BP look down on me, don't they know what I went through before TRP saved me?"

[–]CyraleaRedPill Vanguard7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I DON'T have any sympathy for TRPers. I have empathy for people who don't have the greatest luck in the dating game but keep trying

"I don't have sympathy for TRP'ers, only people who keep failing using the same ineffective strategy"

The inherent belief is that 'not getting any' is something that is wrong

Not wrong; undesirable. You can appreciate how we're allowed to have standards. If a woman doesn't want to put out, that's her prerogative, but we don't want to waste time with that woman when other women will.

No. You have spent so much time there that you don't realize that the other crap they talk about is just to paint over it. After all, no one would hop on if the message was "Hating women gets you laid!"

I've been there longer than most. TRP is about pragmatism at its core. If hating women lead to more sex and happier relationships, we would advocate hating women. You have this curiously cynical view that we're hiding our seedy nature in the hopes of tricking outsiders. We honestly don't give a shit if outsiders think poorly of the information presented there. It's very much take-it-or-leave-it.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"I don't have sympathy for TRP'ers, only people who keep failing using the same ineffective strategy"

This is definitely what I said. /s That aside, I'll bite. Even if there ARE only two strategies, TRP and for simplicity let's call it NTRP, TRP has a success rate of 60% and NTRP only has a 3%, I would still think TRPers were sketch. TRP is often, literally, the ends justify the means. I won't argue it doesn't work. I'll argue the women it attracts are only going to reinforce the negative perception the TRPer has of women.

Not wrong; undesirable.

I would be more willing to believe this distinction, that sex wasn't thought of as a right, if I didn't often see comments about how no doesn't mean no, if she's not sure just keep going, or about how a TRP should be getting sex whenever they wanted from their LTRs / plates / whoever. But yes, undesirable, I'll agree. Discussion for a different day when I don't have presentations to make!

You can appreciate how we're allowed to have standards. If a woman doesn't want to put out, that's her prerogative, but we don't want to waste time with that woman when other women will.

Sure. If this was all it was, no one would hate on it. Throwing yourself at one woman who has expressed disinterest isn't helpful to him or to her. This also isn't my issue with TRP.

TRP is about pragmatism at its core. If hating women lead to more sex and happier relationships, we would advocate hating women.

This is my issue with TRP. Again, the ends justifies the means... I would also say that advocating having an extremely negative view of women isn't necessarily "hating", it's semantics. Surely if I said "I think John is an irrational, childish idiot. He's so indecisive and emotional all the time. I wouldn't even be friends with him if he didn't look pretty", you aren't going to think that I like John.

You have this curiously cynical view that we're hiding our seedy nature in the hopes of tricking outsiders. We honestly don't give a shit if outsiders think poorly of the information presented there.

I have the view that y'all are hiding this nature from your partners, not from random anons on the web. More importantly, it's the fact that it's an advocation of something I think is simply morally deficit. I feel the same way about jihadi twitter accounts. [Not to compare TRP to jihadists. Just what comes to mind.]

It's very much take-it-or-leave-it.

The fact that people take it is what makes me sad.

[–]CyraleaRedPill Vanguard4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll argue the women it attracts are only going to reinforce the negative perception the TRPer has of women.

Yes, the old "you're only going to find broken, insecure girls" canard. You're in denial that it works on the vast majority of women. My current girlfriend is the polar opposite of the girls I used to sleep with. Far from insecure. Women are really not that dissimilar, what works on one generally works on most.

TRP should be getting sex whenever they wanted from their LTRs / plates

I hope you appreciate that you listed another preference and presented it as if men aren't allowed to have them.

I would also say that advocating having an extremely negative view of women isn't necessarily "hating", it's semantics. Surely if I said "I think John is an irrational, childish idiot. He's so indecisive and emotional all the time. I wouldn't even be friends with him if he didn't look pretty", you aren't going to think that I like John.

I might. Guys bitch about their girlfriends all the time. No one is perfect, and people are prone to venting. I like to refer to the dog analogy we use -- I think my dog is dumb as hell, and he'll chew anything I let him get close to. Pisses me off to no end. Still love him to death.

I have the view that y'all are hiding this nature from your partners

My current LTR knows I write on TRP. /u/gaylubeoil has posted pictures of his girlfriend, who reads (and edits!) his submissions. We're among the more prolific members. The evidence kind of goes against you.

The fact that people take it is what makes me sad.

Unless you're a HB8, we honestly don't care.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the old "you're only going to find broken, insecure girls" canard. ... My current girlfriend is the polar opposite of the girls I used to sleep with. Far from insecure.

My current LTR knows I write on TRP. /u/gaylubeoil has posted pictures of his girlfriend, who reads (and edits!) his submissions. We're among the more prolific members. The evidence kind of goes against you.

So the majority of women that TRPers get with this method are well adjusted, got-their-shit-together types? Why were the women you used to sleep with insecure? Or did you mean preTRP?

Additionally, I'm sure there are a small percent of women who enjoy having a TRP like partner. Obviously. Not all women dislike the same things, not all women LIKE the same things. The anecdotal evidence of a handful of relationships does not translate to all women. The evidence of the vast majority of happy relationships NOT being RP goes against it.

You're in denial that it works on the vast majority of women ... Women are really not that dissimilar, what works on one generally works on most.

I haven't seen failure rates given for the method, which would be the more relevant factor. Additionally, the 'vast majority' would include those +50% of women who stay in their first marriage - you're saying TRP would work on them, as well? And, finally, to prove this you'd need to control for the kind of women you were trying it on. Of which I say BS. If it really worked on 'all women', why wouldn't EVERY guy be using RP?

I might.

Of course I've seen the dog analogy before, but it's slightly confusing. So RP thinks AWALT, in that they are dumb, insecure, cheaters, and generally assholes, but RP likes them anyway. That is the most illogical thing I've read in ages. Is RP also about being masochistic?

Also - you should teach that dog some manners. :|

Unless you're a HB8, we honestly don't care.

I don't really care what y'all think either, and I'm def not about to do the attractiveness equivalent of a dick measuring contest, so. This has been a solid discussion for the most part though, so I'm relatively happy.

[–]donit1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheJollySatandropping truth bombs since 840 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Instead of realizing that it doesn't always work out, that sometimes you have to be patient, even that sometimes people die alone, that life isn't fair, that they do not have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to have sex, they turn to TRP.

Sex is easy, you can get that without that RP, you barely have to be anything more than half groomed and at a club if you want to get laid. Doesn't leave much room for anything worthwhile. Now finding and maintaining a girl worthy of an LTR, that's much harder.

A person who has completely taken that philosophy is someone who fundamentally flawed, who didn't have strong character in the first place. If they are willing to believe any person is essentially worthless for no other reason than their gender, something totally out of their control, then THEY are worthless, for something they chose

You don't get to judge those who didn't have a strong character or who made fundamental mistakes. They want to become more than they currently are. Why does this scare you? Is it your projections assuming every red piller must adopt the philosophy in it's entirety, i would assume most like myself take about 80% of it. I'm undecided if this leaves room for unicorns but finding one is secondary priority to my own goals. Looking down on others is not the main characteristic of this philosophy, expecting more of yourself and building a more worldly character is the meat of it.

If it rubs anyone the wrong way they probably have entitlement about how they expect to be treated. The worlds a tough place, 99% of the time you have to earn your stripes before you get anything better than neutral. You haven't shown me your unicorn stripes yet.

[–]itsalreadybeenthrown-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]strongalfalfa|||-4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I do, because I know you haven't. There's no way you actually tried everything else and failed, because terp tactics are not successful ones either, and not everyone fails at relationships.

Wow, nice, this is somewhat the perfect BP response. Op clearly said TRP was not the first thing, not that he tried everything before but that it wasn't the first thing. And you take it to the extreme and understand it as everything. This clears so many arguments where blue pillers took everything to literal or took it to the extreme, I always thought that this was some kind of trolling, where people play ignorant or autistic but no, that is the actual way you guys understand things and how you argue. Also "terp tactics are not successful ones" laughable, if that was true then there wouldn't be a discussion here. TRP obviously works, actually it works extremely well.

Kinda relevant http://i.imgur.com/XgtJTMj.jpg

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points5 points5 points 11 years ago | Copy Link

[–]C0UNTdrama-4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Rationalize it all you want, the reality is that people who don't let their emotions cloud their judgement avoid places like TRP for help because they are counter-productive.

Except they aren't. TRP is damn productive. Otherwise I would've ditched it for something else. I'm a practical man...I don't have the patience or the time for ineffective bullshit.

TRP is not a self-improvement sub, TRP is sexual strategy.

It's for improving sexual strategy. So, yeah, self-improvement. Is Fitit not a self-improvement sub because it's only about fitness?

[–]C0UNTdrama-5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Alcoholics think that drinking copious amounts of alcohol is productive. Meth heads think that doing meth is productive.

I mean, how could I possibly argue with that? I can now clearly see that even though I'm happier and more successful than I've ever been, it's really just the same as destroying my life and body with booze or drugs. Thanks brother (or sister).

No, it is a sexual strategy. Everything that you would consider "self-improvement" is there specifically to help you get laid. Nothing more, nothing less.

So getting better at getting laid isn't improvement? Ok.

[–]C0UNTdrama-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]donit1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]C0UNTdrama0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]donit0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I think part of your "anger" theory is based on the idea that you think these guys want to pick up girls, bang 'em and chuck 'em.

There's a lot of advice on TRP on how to pick a girl up, and how to establish a sexual relationship with her. But I've never, ever seen anyone discuss ways of chucking them. That step isn't discussed because it's not something anyone wants to have happen.

So, although I'm sure you've seen it happen, I'm certain it wasn't preplanned that way. Sometimes people have sex and then they discover something they don't like about the person.

Other situations are probably ones where they are having sex with someone who is not really their type and not a good match for them, someone they wouldn't really like otherwise, and they overlook all that long enough to have sex, but then once the pheromones die down, they wake up and wonder what they're doing with that person, as all the attraction they felt for them before is gone.

That's more of a case of raging hormones than mal intent. Hormones can push people to do stupid things, and the loss of attraction afterward makes them feel pretty stupid for doing it, because it means they're now stuck with the feeling that they just had sex with someone they're not attracted to.

So, some women deal with this by wanting to hang out a few times before sex, figuring any guy would enjoy having sex with her, but only a guy who likes her would enjoy hanging out with her. But to do this, you would need to make sure he's on board with it, and that he's not going to try and advance the relationship during that period. The problem that occurs is that couples don't establish a clear cutoff line of when that is, so it often winds up interfering with his taking the steps.

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[–]donit0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]skeetch_a_leak1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Question for BP: Do you think TRP was the first thing we tried?
Author	skeetch_a_leak
Upvotes	16
Comments	251
Date	June 10, 2015 3:34 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/39b3ey/question_for_bp_do_you_think_trp_was_the_first/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-bp-do-you-think-trp-was-the-first.281682 https://theredarchive.com/post/281682

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