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DimeTree
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (38 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]xamdou 122 points123 points124 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Clarkson hit that.
[–]Tb0n3 56 points57 points58 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
On the nose.
[–]Chervenko 34 points35 points36 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So hard, he broke his small finger.
[–]itsmassive 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You mean pinky finger?
[–]rogue780 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or, as some would say, his pinkie finger
[–]tc123 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Clarkson is a boss.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=ULuXVN_XFYH2ggTInYDYDQ&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dvfzu2ObrYzc&ved=0CCgQtwIwAg&usg=AFQjCNHI4uVslKwlkJdoNvRg0vVGii6tmw&sig2=R-fF6kyFbWjQ3V5zlTOxYg
[–]emu90 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Brett Lee hit that multiple times.
http://youtu.be/RCgAqNSAD1U
[–]EskimoJesus 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Love ya, Binga.
[–]Thorin_The_Viking 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was excited and confused when I read that as Bruce Lee.
Now I am disappointed.
[–]vespula13 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I love how he moves forward from the crease for that gut shot.
Also - Piers Morgan and George Osbourne, have to be related in some way! Slimy slimy slime :/
[–]Raudskeggr 24 points25 points26 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
His only real selling point is that he's such a first class douchebag. Someone you love to hate.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Jim Rome kicks ass so get the fuck out with that.
[–]Hanshen 48 points49 points50 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Came to say this.
It's piers Morgan... It wouldn't surprise me if he wrote this whilst phone hacking some more dead teenagers or kicking some puppies. The man is an narcissistic arsehole who when he isn't spewing controversial drivel is raving in his British tabloid columns about how famous and loved he is in America.
The man is despicable.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
That's sad. The only reason I remember the name is because of Clarkson making fun of him - and Clarkson is famous in America.
[–]Hanshen 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He was the former editor of the news of the world and the mirror, and is the current editor of the mail online US I think. He is an absolute crook and really should be jailed for some of his crimes. As Lord Levesen said following the British public inquiry into journalism (called for in response to phone hacking, including of a murdered teenager, to find sensational stories, bribing police officers, arguably having the British government in the palm of their hands, fraud, framing celebrities in a variety of situations), Morgan's statements, 'clearly prove ... that he was aware that it was taking place in the press as a whole and that he was sufficiently unembarrassed by what was criminal behaviour that he was prepared to joke about it'.
The man has allowed some seriously awful things to happen under his lead at a variety of tabloids. Ostensibly he has no moral compass and has done some truly awful things. I really can't express adequately just how much of an utterly terrible human being he is.
[–]GoogleNoAgenda 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
I have no idea who "clarkson" is.
[–]Uberrancel 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Top Gear UK host. Good show.
[–]Hanshen 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Let's be fair, Clarkson isn't actually much better. The guy makes his living by being controversial. Just look at this stuff in Argentina recently, or Burma (Myanmar), or India, or Afghanistan, or Mexico, the guy IS pretty damn offensive when you think about it. As a country we have quite a few celebrities that just make their money from being objectionable... Check out a woman called Katie Hopkins, ohhhh you guys would love her. She's absolutely awful, a bit like a female piers Morgan.
That said, I would take an army of Jeremy Clarkson's over one piers Morgan. Piers Morgan is just insufferable.
[–]rms141 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Clarkson expresses his opinion and doesn't care if someone is offended by it.
Morgan intentionally antagonizes groups he doesn't like.
There's a difference.
[–]Hanshen -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Naaaaaa he really doesn't. You should see how his media persona has changed over time. Same can be said for Hammond and May. Basically since the rise of top gear they have purposefully made themselves more controversial and standoffish precisely because it sells. People absolutely love the plain speaking right wing English man, he's funny and can get away with it. Don't get me wrong, I like Jeremy, my ex actually lives in chipping norton and knows be family really well, they would frequently go to parties etc. He is obviously quite plain speaking, but he definitely puts on a persona for his sun column and top gear.
I have a hell of a lot of respect for him because he does it so brilliantly. He doesn't go too far often and is a great personality. The problem with piers Morgan is he lacks the basic charisma to pull off that sort of character. Clarkson is really quite brilliant in his character, Morgan just constantly goes too far and is actually quite an awful human being. Jeremy, from what I have been told is charming and hilarious in real life.
Even his accent is fake by the way, I mean, he has adopted it now but you should have heard Jeremy Clarkson before his mainstream TV career kicked off. He was a VERY well spoken properly spoken posh boy, he did a load of radio 4 dramas when he was a kid. That plain speaking slightly brummy thing is definitely a later development.
[–]Bulvious 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But I also think that sometimes Clarkson isn't really being serious and isn't expecting to be taken seriously.
[–]Hanshen 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh for sure! That's part of his brilliance now. He's created the 'clarkson' brand so he really can just say whatever he wants. Sometimes he gets it wrong, goes a bit far and pushes some sensibilities, BUT the difference is that he obviously either doesn't 100% mean what he is saying and is just trying to poke a bit of fun in the public perception of an issue/stereotypes.
When Piers Morgan does it I can't help but think that he is just a cunt (for lack of a better word). I mean, he tries to be 'plain speaking' but it's not laced with the same tongue in cheek attitude Clarkson gives it. Basically I see Piers Morgan as someone who is trying to free load off the success off simon cowell to get some celebrity status in the USA, but in reality is nothing better than a criminal. He has done some things that you wouldn't dream of doing to your worse enemy just to get a good story... The man is just unspeakably terrible both as a person and as a TV personality.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hanshen 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Haha. Your description of Pier's Morgan tickles me.
Perhaps you're right. I saw her speak earlier this year and I really dislike that woman. She's seriously awful. You're right that comparing her with a literal criminal like Morgan is a little strong though!
[–]Hanshen 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know, she's pretty destructive to be honest. Have you ever read any of her journalism? She's insanely offensive.
[–]ItsKimeTime 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The one that talks a lot? I like him.
[–]GoogleNoAgenda 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ah, ok. Anyone who punches Piers Morgan is ok in my book.
[–]amisamiamiam 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think the proper English phraseology is: A dodgy arsehole, a wanker, a tosser, a manky and lazy sod who part times as a mingebag.
[–]IgnatiusBSamson 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lupxmqcvCJ1qz4vjio1_500.png
[–]slapknuts -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm slightly conflicted on Piers. I hate everything he stands for and I will always stand behind Clarkson, but I watched a bunch of his 45 minute specials on different worldwide cities, they didn't suck.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
er...
you're not thinking of Parts Unknown with Anthony Bourdain, are you?
[–]slapknuts -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Isn't Anthony Bourdain a chef? I watched the Piers specials on Dubai, Monaco, Shanghai, etc. If he's not letting his opinions be known he's just a good looking dude with a great voice.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Forgive me, I guess he did indeed do travelogues (though I don't know if they've aired outside Britain). Retroactively upvoted you for the confusion.
Anthony Bourdain is indeed a chef, but he's got a (food oriented) travel show on CNN where Piers' show is/was. I'm sure Piers can make a non-opinionated show just fine (in the same way Gordon Ramsay can make a home cooking show and pass off as a gentleman).
[–][deleted] 180 points181 points182 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
You could literally replace Shia Labeouf's claim with anyone. You're making an assumption about the validity of a victim's claim being false.
I don't see how it's any different if Piers did it to a woman claiming the same thing in the same type of situation. (where I'm sure there would be a mass outrage over how a woman was a victim)
Piers is a fool. Whether Shia was raped or not, what he said is out of line and ironic. Given that such statements are what really demeans real victims. They see this and think it'll happen to them too. So they keep quiet, especially true for male victims who see this.
edit; He's got a ton of awful tweets about this... geez. People believe women who took over 30 years to mention being raped by Bill Cosby... yet, Shia is obviously liar because he didn't say something right away? Equality folks.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Rape shame is rape shame. No matter the gender.
[–]dangerousopinions 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you completely, but I think a lot of the disbelief has to do with the context more than it does Shia specifically and the fact that he's male.
I don't mean to suggest that under any circumstance he would get the same sympathy a woman would, but the scant few details he provided about it make it sound like he was able to prevent it and didn't in order to continue his performance art. That may not be the case, but that is the general message that has been put out, so I'm not surprised at the reaction because if that's really what happened, people shouldn't have the same level of sympathy as they would for someone who is powerless to prevent their victimization.
[–]Lube_it_with_blood 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm downvoting this because I think we'd all benefit from actively removing Piers Morgan from our consciousnesses, and over time, be allowed to truly forget about him. Then he may scream and shout from the lowest pits of oblivion, unable to engage any one of us, incapable of infuriating anybody. Bliss.
[–]DimeTree[S] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm okay with this.
[–]wiseprogressivethink 320 points321 points322 points 11 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link
On the one hand, Shia Labeouf is a buffoon and he's probably lying.
On the other hand, Piers Morgan is a douche and men actually do get sexually assaulted.
I hate all parties involved.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link
[–]Atkailash 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. Trivializing it is a dangerous path no matter the gender involved.
[–]dangerousopinions 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago* (29 children) | Copy Link
The whole thing is that he has been sparing with the details. We don't know if he objected, felt unable to object, was fearful of being accused of some kind of abuse....or was more committed to "art" than not being victimized.
Until those details come out I'm going to say he's a rape victim. But if it turns out that he just didn't want to break character, I don't know how much sympathy I have, although that woman would still be a predator.
[–]my-alt 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
I think this is the key point. His "rape" was as a consequence of his commitment to not to react to anything during his "performance art" exhibit. So he sits there, committed to non reaction as it happens, and does absolutely nothing to stop it.
Calling that "rape" IS offensive to rape victims frankly. I get the impression he is leveraging this for the sake of notoriety.
He was in no way raped in any conventional sense.
[–]guywithaccount 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
His "rape" was as a consequence of his commitment to not to react to anything during his "performance art" exhibit. So he sits there, committed to non reaction as it happens, and does absolutely nothing to stop it.
It's still rape. Yeah, he allowed himself to get raped as part of his art, which is the kind of thing that a pretentious jackass with screwed-up priorities would do - but then, isn't he a pretentious jackass with screwed-up priorities? I think so.
The fact - if it is a fact, of course - is that somewhere out there is a woman who, while locked in a public closet with a complete stranger, decided to strip him and fuck him because, I dunno, reasons. Shouldn't we be against that? Aren't we always decrying the gendered double standard when it comes to perpetrators and victims and the way that female rapists get slapped on the wrist?
[–]Azothlike -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
No, it's not.
Yes means Yes does not apply. In order for it to be rape, legally, Shia would have to demonstrate nonconsent.
If he was more interested in his performance art than his sexual sanctity, he has no legal case.
Was it wrong? Sure. Was it rape? No.
[–]guywithaccount -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
In order for it to be rape, legally, Shia would have to demonstrate nonconsent.
He did that when he established the terms of his performance.
[–]bournehavoc 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Serious question: if one has to express non-consent for it to be considered rape, how do date-rape scenarios with the victim being drugged before being assaulted get prosecuted? Expression of non-consent as a litmus test for rape does not pass the smell test to me.
[–]Azothlike -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Link to the terms of his performance, and the accused rapist's acknowledgement/reception of them?
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
i think in this situation, much like the law, ignorance of the rules doesn't grant you immunity to the consequences of breaking them.
[–]Azothlike -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Complete fallacy.
This situation is NOT the law. The law states that it is not rape unless he expressed nonconsent.
If you cannot prove that Shia expressed nonconsent to HER, such as by making her sign a form expressing those sentiments, then nonconsent was not expressed and it is not rape.
/u/guywithaccount claimed that nonconsent was expressed through the terms of the performance, and there is no evidence of that. The legal burden of proof would be on him/shia to demonstrate that.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
So there is no such thing as date rape or being raped by your husband simply because you logically chose to not resist? Go fuck yourself.
[–]thebeginningistheend 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Brb Off to rape Gandhi
[–]Azothlike -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
You don't have to resist.
You do have to refuse.
[–]Saephon 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm pretty sure if you ask most women, they'll tell you silence is not consent. The default assumption should be that you aren't allowed to fuck anyone, no questions asked. Once affirmative consent is established, then sex is allowed, and can be taken off the table at ANY TIME.
[–]Revoran 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know about affirmative consent being needed all the time.
But definitely in a public setting like that, there's no implication that it's OK to grope/perform sex acts on someone.
[–]Azothlike -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Who cares what women say?
By law, silence is consent. Affirmative Consent is not the law of the land. Affirmative Nonconsent is, therefore, by law he was not raped.
Next time he doesn't want to have sex, he needs to say no. That's the law, and it's not complicated.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"Countries around the world differ in how they deal with the mens rea element in the law regarding rape, (i.e. the accused must be aware that the victim is not consenting or might not be consenting), and in how they place the onus of proof with regard to belief of consent."
just so you know it's not as obvious as you're portraying it
[–]Azothlike -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It happened in the US, so only US law is relevant.
[–]dangerousopinions 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We really have no way of knowing what happened. He said a few sentences on the matter. I think there is a good chance you're right but it's far from a certainty.
[+]theycallme1 -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly this. He was too committed to his bullshit "art" to do anything. What if this chick had AIDs or was trying to get pregnant? I think it's more likely that she was attractive, he said Fuck it..Then claimed rape when his chick found out. Which is the basis of many false rape claims.
[–]Redditsfulloffags 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
EXPLAIN YOUR RAPE TO ME IN DETAIL OTHERWISE YOU WERENT RAPED!!
pathetic.
[–]dangerousopinions -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I made a typo, relax. That's why the last two sentences basically say the exact same thing but are structured like they might contrast each other. I added a "not" where it didn't belong. It's been edited.
[+]Redditsfulloffags -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Until those details come out I'm going to say he's not a rape victim.
This is what I'm referring to. Whatever you fixed changes nothing.
[–]dangerousopinions 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Until those details come out I'm going to say he's a rape victim.
Give it a second it's going to space asshole.
[+]Redditsfulloffags -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
IM not sure what you're arguing here. Assuming he is or is not a rape victim until you, a nobody, has all of the details is pathetic. I stand by my word despite how you wriggle your original text so you dont look like a twat.
edit: wriggle not wiggle
[–]dangerousopinions 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Firstly, what I edited was what I always intended to write hence the structure, so just chill, it's a 5am comment, one of dozens, typos happen.
Secondly, are we not sharing out opinions here? I'm not claiming to be the arbiter of rape victimhood, but that's never stopped anyone else from having an opinion on something.
And the point I am trying to make, is that we don't know the details and he's saying he was raped by this woman. That's entirely possible, so I'll assume that's what happened.
The stipulation to that is; if he only decided to do nothing in order to stay in character and nothing else was stopping him, how much of a victim is he really? Like obviously what this woman did was wrong and even criminal, but if he was more concerned with his art project than avoiding being a rape victim it's hard to have much sympathy for that kind of stupidity.
[–]Irongrip 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
twat
[–]intensely_human 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
was fearful of being accused of some kind of abuse
This is probably the most likely explanation. If you make a scene and cry out that a woman is raping you, I guarantee you by the time the dust has settled you'll be the one in cuffs with charges against you.
[–]3226 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a very difficult situation. On the one hand, it's a very unusual story, from someone who, at this point, is almost most famous for lying.
On the other hand, you can't trivialise a rape accusation, or attack someone for not going to the police and reporting it.
If it were found to be untrue, the consequences would be very serious, but we can't say that without any form of investigation, which will probably never happen.
[+]novicebater -18 points-17 points-16 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
It's funny that people are so polarized I can't tell who the monster is in the situation described.
Would the torches be for the lying whore who cried rape or for the merciless villain who took advantage of a poor woman?
[–]bigboss2014 24 points25 points26 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Do you even need to fucking ask? No, if a female celebrity came out and said she was raped every media outlet and everyone in the public eye would show her support. We can only hope one comes out and lies about it just to show the comparison in reactions between her own and Shias.
[–]dangerousopinions 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To be fair, we probably shouldn't react with disbelief or belief. This is the whole problem. Neither pole is ideal.
[–]Siiimo 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I mean, the Cosby rape victims said it years ago and nobody cared. So I'm not sure what you mean.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I mean, the Cosby rape accusers said it years ago and nobody cared. So I'm not sure what you mean.
Ftfy
[–]Siiimo 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think it's beyond a reasonable doubt that 14 women he interacted with are all just lying...
I think it is possible that the accusations are true. I also think that lies can snowball and copycats will multiply. Blood in the water attracts sharks.
I don't have the facts, neither do you, and the relevant facts are probably beyond the reach of mortal man.
[–]Siiimo 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I disagree. Several of the women are remaining anonymous, most are not pursuing civil action, they have nothing to gain from lying about something that they probably don't want to talk about.
[–]dangerousopinions 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
From what I understand, most of the allegations weren't widely known, many weren't public at all, and several were settled out of court. Not that I think that's how it should have gone down, but none of these people filed a complaint, and as far as I'm aware, nobody went to the media, so how can anyone really say these alleged victims were ignored? Nobody had the opportunity to ignore them it seems.
No, they went forward for sure. It's been public for at least ten years.
[–]dangerousopinions -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yes, but most of the claims are closer to 30 years old and as I said, many were settled out of court and included a non-disclosure agreement.
The one I linked to was 10 years old about an incident that was 10.5 years old. The original comment I replied to said people would go ape shit and immediately believe it if it were a woman, but that's obviously not true.
And if you're a famous man and a dozen women claim rape...
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]dungone 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
"wow, I'm an artist"?
The level of megalomania there is on par with someone who thinks they're Jesus. And I'm pretty confident that's what it was.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]dungone 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
May the Freud be with you.
[–]CODYsaurusREX 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And also with mom. I mean, you. Yeah, you.
[–]Revoran 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Shia is an idiot, but we should take his claim seriously (as with all rape claims). That doesn't mean believing without question but it does mean treating it as a serious matter and not immediately calling them liars.
I mean there's no rule that says all rape victims have to be nice people.
[–]wiseprogressivethink 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I simply didn't find his story credible, and given his track record, my assumption is that he's full of shit.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's hard to see Lebeouf as being honest. But I think most male actors can agree they all have that one crazy fan. So it's not out of the realm of possibility
[–]RiverRatRambler 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Here here!
[–]i_poop_splinters 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I am so out of the loop on this one. Shia got raped? Not by Michael bay right?
[–]Tbone139 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
It was a performance-art exhibit. Shia sat in a chair with a paper bag on his head for five days while people waited in line to spend time alone with him. There was a table outside with candy, whips, etc.
Shia claims one woman whipped his legs for ten minutes, then took off his clothes and raped him.
I believe it; here's a woman who did a similar performance but with a large audience, it almost took a Lord of the Flies turn.
[–]HigglyBumps 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Holy shit this is some soul penetrating art that Marina Abramović portrayed. Really shows the audience who they are.
Rhythm 0: 1974
To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Abramović developed one of her most challenging (and best-known) performances. She assigned a passive role to herself, with the public being the force which would act on her. Abramović placed on a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, olive oil, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions.
Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained passive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: “What I learned was that... if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you.” ... “I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation.”
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If you invite a group of people to do whatever they want with you, and provide them with implements of violence, then you can't really turn around and complain when they do whatever they want with you.
[–]HigglyBumps 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
She wasn't complaining, she was portraying passivity. She exposed a truth of mob mentality in that, given the opportunity, people will become violent towards someone who has literally done nothing. They fled from her the second she moved when time was up, because they were afraid of retaliation for what they had done.
The weapons or violent objects were available to expose that truth, to force sight upon something society tries not to acknowledge. Humans are aggressive, they grab aggression the second it appears and they hold onto it if nothing and no one tells them to stop.
Shia Labeouf was merely portraying the performance in a different scope, he gave his audience privacy and detached his personal identity through covering his face.
Getting back to the main topic of the thread, frankly, he's lucky he didn't get murdered, but we would still say someone murdered him. It's not like someone would called that assisted suicide.
Labeouf and Abramović both consented to the role of total passivity, but the actions of those who acted upon them may as well be accounted for as if the passive one was sleeping.
People in general are pretty close to predators. We see someone passive and still and our instinct is to go up to them and fuck with them. Maybe even (in this case) fuck them. Marine let that happen to her definitely but what she showed about us was pretty fucking disturbing. Like those assholes who go up to living statues in the park and harass them. Homo homini lupus. Man is a wolf to man.
Ok... but she still invited them to do so.
I think murder is something else entirely. Firstly, I wouldn't agree what he did implied consent to be killed. There is no reversing being killed, whereas whip wounds heal (source: been whipped before). A request to do something very permenant like that calls for a much clearer level of communication. There are examples of people doing that, like the guy who asked that german cannibal to eat him, but it's rather rare, and the request was explicit and in writing.
If you agree they consented then it's not comparable to doing those things to a sleeping person at all, unless perhaps you'd previously discussed doing that stuff to said person (as I previously permitted one of my partners).
[–]Gawrsh 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Marina Abramovic.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/art-and-architecture/marina-abramovic-a-star-stabbed-stared-at-and-now-born/article5446264/
The next year in Naples, in a piece called Rhythm O, she surrounded herself with dozens of objects – among them, condoms, a saw, razor blades, matches and a gun with one bullet in it – and invited audience members to use them on her however they wished. “She wasn’t raped and she didn’t flinch,” according to one newspaper report.
You'll notice that the newspaper considered anybody taking advantage of her sexually as rape; it didn't happen, thankfully. But it's been a consensus since 1974 that had someone done so it would have been rape.
Now Labeouf is taken advantage of in actuality, and the question of "Is it rape?" comes up.
I highly doubt that if someone had used one of those condoms on her, Piers Morgan would have any trouble calling it rape.
[–][deleted] 42 points43 points44 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Who tf is piers Morgan?
[–]flyingwolf 76 points77 points78 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
If you are being honest, then this question makes me so happy.
[–]misunderstoodONE 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Seriously tho who is he?
[–]ChefNicholas 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ex CNN hack.
[–]Coldbeam 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wait. Ex? You just made my night!
[–]flyingwolf 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Come on man, google is your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Morgan
[–]autowikibot 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Piers Morgan:
Piers Stefan Pughe-Morgan (born Piers Stefan O'Meara, 30 March 1965), known professionally as Piers Morgan, is a British journalist and television personality currently working in the United States as Editor-at-Large (US) of MailOnline. He is editorial director of First News, a national newspaper for children published in the UK. He began hosting Piers Morgan Live on CNN on 17 January 2011. The show replaced Larry King Live in the 9:00 pm timeslot following King's retirement. Piers Morgan Live was cancelled by CNN in February 2014 and aired its final broadcast on March 28, 2014. Morgan is a former judge on America's Got Talent and Britain's Got Talent, and a winner of Celebrity Apprentice. In the UK, Morgan worked as a writer and editor for several British tabloids, including The Sun, News of the World and the Daily Mirror. In November 2012, he was heavily criticised in the official findings of the Leveson Inquiry, when Lord Leveson stated that comments made in Morgan's testimony about phone hacking were "utterly unpersuasive" and "clearly prove ... that he was aware that it was taking place in the press as a whole and that he was sufficiently unembarrassed by what was criminal behaviour that he was prepared to joke about it". Image i
Piers Stefan Pughe-Morgan (born Piers Stefan O'Meara, 30 March 1965), known professionally as Piers Morgan, is a British journalist and television personality currently working in the United States as Editor-at-Large (US) of MailOnline.
He is editorial director of First News, a national newspaper for children published in the UK. He began hosting Piers Morgan Live on CNN on 17 January 2011. The show replaced Larry King Live in the 9:00 pm timeslot following King's retirement. Piers Morgan Live was cancelled by CNN in February 2014 and aired its final broadcast on March 28, 2014. Morgan is a former judge on America's Got Talent and Britain's Got Talent, and a winner of Celebrity Apprentice.
In the UK, Morgan worked as a writer and editor for several British tabloids, including The Sun, News of the World and the Daily Mirror. In November 2012, he was heavily criticised in the official findings of the Leveson Inquiry, when Lord Leveson stated that comments made in Morgan's testimony about phone hacking were "utterly unpersuasive" and "clearly prove ... that he was aware that it was taking place in the press as a whole and that he was sufficiently unembarrassed by what was criminal behaviour that he was prepared to joke about it".
Image i
Interesting: Piers Morgan Live | Piers Morgan On... | Piers Morgan's Life Stories | The Dark Side of Fame with Piers Morgan
Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I had to google him. Skimmed his wiki and I don't care.
[–]HowDoIMathThough 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Piers Morgan is the main reason I feel ashamed to be British.
[–]HydrogenxPi 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The hack job they brought in after they fired Larry King for being too old.
[–]maverick715 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Jeremy Clarkson's punching bag
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
An annoying self-righteous cunt.
[–]VarusAlmighty -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He's a cologne.
[–]DyJoGu 29 points30 points31 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I imagine as Shia Labeouf, you'd probably get a lot of crazy girls wanting to say they fucked Shia Labeouf, so this doesn't surprise me, really.
[–]Sxty8 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This just in.... Piers Morgan is still a cunt.
[–]DREWWMO 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
he would never even touch this subject if it was a woman making the claim
[–]eletheros 40 points41 points42 points 11 years ago (64 children) | Copy Link
This is not the case to get worked up over. The claim actually is pathetic, and it's pathetic in exactly the same way that the various "I consented but changed my mind a week later" claims are pathetic.
Rape requires verbal or physical rejection, duress, or incapacity. Labeouf has made no claim he was actually incapacitated, and made no claim of being under duress. So the lack of verbal or physical rejection finishes it.
And because of that, Labeouf hasn't gone and won't go to the police to report. This is the exact situation that should be recognized as not rape.
[–]sugar_free_haribo 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Agreed. Standard should be "affirmative dissent", unless physically coerced or totally incapacitated. Dissent would include verbal or physical resistance. You can't just sit on your hands and call it rape afterwards though.
[–]dangerousopinions 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The standard is in between. To withdraw consent you must object in a way that a reasonable person would understand, verbally or physically. But consent must also be given. It can be given implicitly through escalating and reciprocated activity or a number of other ways. But you can't simply walk up to a stranger and start stripping them down and assume silence is consent. It's not in that context and one could easily be charged with sexual assault in most jurisdictions for such an act. The case would be coloured by the lack of objection and I'm sure that would factor into the charge or the sentencing, but silence wouldn't mean a crime didn't occur.
[–]csdvengervheo 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unless there is an implied threat of violence. There doesn't have to actually be violence. Though maybe you would lump that under "physically coerced".
[–]dangerousopinions 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Rape requires verbal or physical rejection, duress, or incapacity.
It doesn't actually. Consent can be implied but context does matter. There has to be a reasonable belief that consent was given. There is none of that here. If he had been actively participating but silent, then you'd be absolutely right, but lack of objection isn't consent under the current definition in most western jurisdictions.
To withdraw consent, yes, there needs to be some kind of objection, verbal, physical, or one that would be understood by any reasonable person.
Now I agree, this sounds like a bunk case where he very well could have prevented his own rape. But that doesn't mean he implicitly consented either, it just means that he was possibly so stupid that he was more concerned with his art performance than he was with not being raped. But in any case, if in the context of this art project you walk into a room, strip down a stranger and start fucking them, you're a sexual predator if they aren't actively participating in that.
[–]Broken_Castle 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
I would have to disagree. If you slowly escalate a sexual situation with someone whom you know is clearly capable of expressing rejection, this should certainly be implied consent.
[–]dangerousopinions 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
If they in no way respond to your advances that should be an indication that they're not interested. Most reasonable people would make this determination.
[–]Broken_Castle -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry, but if someone came up and grabbed my balls while I was casually sitting in a chair, and I don't respond at all, I cannot possibly see this as anything other than consent. If I didn't want the person to continue I would express it (either verbally, or by you know... moving away or anything).
I don't care if the person was a petite young woman or a burly man-bear, if I don't want their contact and I am not unconscious I would express it (assuming no fear of duress of course). Sitting there with no dissent would clearly be consent.
I don't see why a different standard would apply to a famous person.
[–]dangerousopinions 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
So if you walked up to a woman and grabbed her breasts and she didn't speak or move in anyway you would regard that as consent? I disagree and the law tends to as well. I'm not saying a lack of objection wouldn't be a factor in a criminal proceeding, but it wouldn't prevent charges from being laid.
[–]Pathosphere 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah. What if the consenter is unable to or otherwise afraid of saying no?
[–]Broken_Castle -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Well the act of grabbing her breasts would be sexual assault... however yes, if she did not react but was clearly conscious and aware of the situation, and I escalated the encounter (by taking her clothing off and then having sex with her) and she did not express any attempt to stop me, then I would not consider this to be rape, and every action beyond the initial sexual assault would be with consent.
Disclaimer: I would not do this to any woman (with whom I don't have an active sexual relationship) for a large number of reasons.
[–]ladut 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
And the act of someone grabbing your balls is not sexual assault?
[–]Broken_Castle -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The initial act is, yes. I am saying that by not responding I then offer implied consent afterwards.
[–]Doctor_Loggins 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So... it's only sexual assault if they verbally object? Help me out here.
[–]highpressuresodium -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
not really
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
There has to be a reasonable belief that consent was given. There is none of that here.
He left a whip on the table outside. What was that supposed to mean?
[–]dangerousopinions 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Oh it definitely means he wanted to be stripped naked and pleasured sexually by anyone who came in. /s
Do you even listen to yourself?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's one interpretation, and not entirely an unreasonable one. I'd also argue that people have the right to expect people to clarify cases of confused consent rather than to let it happen and complain about it afterwards.
[–]dangerousopinions 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A whip under no circumstances is sexual consent. I personally have my own questions given this happened during an art project here he decided from the outset not to react to the participants so I don't know whether he chose not to react for the sake of the art project. But a whip is under no circumstance, even these strange ones, consent to sex.
Not under no circumstances:
I'm at a kink club, I hand my domme a whip and bow down in front of her.
^ Clearly implied consent using body language.
The circumstances regarding SL'B's art piece weren't that explicit, but it's not unimaginable why someone might think he intended for the whip to be used on him.
so... it could still be rape, even if the woman doesn't know he isn't consenting. unless we're using American law as the pinnacle of social structure
[–]eletheros 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
unless we're using American law as the pinnacle of social structure
Not the pinnacle, but the US still has due process which makes it better than most.
Basically he took the art exhibit so serriously that he had to go through with it. Definitely pathetic.
[–]YeOldeDog 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Then if a woman were engaged in a similar art piece and a man came up and did much the same as what is alleged it would not be rape?
[–]eletheros 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It would absolutely not be rape under the exact circumstance, but that wouldn't stop feminists from claiming it is.
We should be better than that.
[–]marvin -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is a very good point, and I'm very glad to see the community here holds itself to a high standard.
[–]Solesaver -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link
That's ridiculous. I'm not a crazy 'verbal affirmative consent for every escalation' advocate, but you can be raped without physically or verbally saying no. If the encounter happened as Shia described it, then yes, it was rape. If he had spoken up or tried to stop her it certainly would have been more clear cut, but that doesn't mean he consented.
One would have to have the other side of the story to know what made her think that he was interested in a sexual encounter. From his story though he did not consent in any way to the sexual encounter, he did nothing that could ever be construed as consent, therefore it was entirely non-consensual sex, which is rape.
For your sake I hope you don't try having sex with someone who is completely unresponsive to your advances, you will be charged with rape and most likely convicted.
[–]eletheros -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
I'm not a crazy 'verbal affirmative consent for every escalation' advocate, but you can be raped without physically or verbally saying no. If the encounter happened as Shia described it, then yes, it was rape.
On what grounds and in what jurisdiction? Remember, rape is a term of law.
I don't like frigid dates, so that is unlikely.
In every jurisdiction in the western world. You need to read more about this. Consent must be given. It can be given implicitly, but not through silence and inaction alone. Context matters a great deal. There has to be cause to think consent has been given and complete inaction and silence wouldn't meet that criteria. When it's withdrawn the burden is on the withdrawer, but you can't just walk up to complete strangers on the street, start stripping them down and assume if they're silent that you're not committing a crime. That's not how it works.
[–]Vancha 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I'm guessing this is a semantic game where you'd say if there was no law, it wouldn't be rape, it'd be forcing sex upon someone?
[–]eletheros -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
No, it's a statement that rape is a term of law. If there was no law, it wouldn't be a term of law.
[–]miroku000 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
By your logic, it is impossible for a woman to rape a man in many places since rape is a legal term and all.
[–]Falcon109 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Not strictly or logically "impossible", but "legally impossible", yes. Sadly, the answer to your query is yes in many jurisdictions. Do not confuse "morality" with "legality". They can be two VERY different things.
[–]miroku000 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I think the word rape has been around longer than the laws prohibiting rape. So, I think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that rape is a legal term. I mean, the word rape is thrown around so much that it has become kind of diluted.
[–]Falcon109 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think the word rape has been around longer than the laws prohibiting rape.
"Rape" IS a legal term today. It today is used to describe an illegal sexual assault. I don't get what your point is?
The concept of what we today rightly describe as "rape" has been around a LOT longer than the actual four-letter word to describe the despicable action has, certainly, but sure, the actual spoken or written word has been around a lot longer than that. You said that "I think the word "rape" has been around longer than the laws prohibiting rape". That is clearly true, at least by etymological definition, but so what?
Hell, in Old English, "Rape" was a district in Sussex, England. It also meant to be "in a hurry". In the 1300s, the Oxford English Dictionary described the word "rape" as being “The act of taking something by force; esp. the seizure of property by violent means; robbery, plundering." That is the word's early etymological definition.
I do not understand what your point is, or how I am exaggerating anything? Today, in our era, "rape" is most definitely a descriptive for both an evil act and is also a legal term - and the legal terminology matter when you are in front of a judge. There are plenty of court cases where the crux of the matter centers around a modern definition of the word (revolving around the concept of "consent"), so the historical relevance to the etymological definition holds no bearing here. The MODERN legal definition is what I was commenting on, and made that clear.
[–]miroku000 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The legal definition of rape is one definition of rape used today. But not the only definition. Look it up if you don't believe me.
[–]eletheros 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yes, and the law should be changed
[–]miroku000 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So maybe we should instead argue whether he was sexually assaulted. If she walked up and took off his pants and started touching him without any indication that he was consenting, isn't that a crime? I mean, if a guy walked up to some random girl and start taking her clothes off and feeling her up, wouldn't that be a crime? Does it only become a crime when she says "stop"? If so, does that mean guys are free to feel up random girls? Maybe it was a crime but not " rape"? If so, then maybe we are splitting hairs.
[–]Solesaver -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
Rape is defined as sex with someone without their consent. The case becomes unclear when the consent is unclear. If the girl testified to having any reason to believe he was consenting a case could be made, but as is we don't have such a testimony
I'm certainly not advocating a mob to go hunt this girl down and lynch her. Perhaps she really did think he consented. Mocking Shia for his allegation though completely unfair (no matter how big a tool he may or may not be).
Who knows, maybe he's just being a drama queen. Generally I think it's better to be supportive alleged victims (Oh no, he got unwarranted sympathy) than to start mocking him out of the gate. This is why people are afraid to come forward about rape. Not the eventuality that possibly there isn't enough evidence for a conviction. It's people just flat out not believing them, telling them its their own fault, and mocking them for their victimization.
[–]eletheros -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Rape is defined as sex with someone without their consent.
Correct. And "no consent" in the context of rape is the physical or verbal rejection, duress, or incapacitation.
[–]Solesaver 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
No, "no consent" is not consenting to the encounter. It is significantly more difficult to prove that one did not consent without actively rejecting the engagement. The situation is certainly more ambiguous, and open to interpretation. It certainly begs the question "Why didn't you explicitly express your withholding of consent? What was your objective in allowing the engagement to continue?" In the end, in a world with perfect information, if the encounter happened in exactly the way Shia described, he most certainly was raped. He did not consent in any way to the sexual encounter, yet the woman had sex with him anyway.
[–]eletheros -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
No, "no consent" is not consenting to the encounter.
You've just made sex a crime, with an affirmative defense of consent. That's what the feminists want.
[–]Solesaver 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
No, I didn't. There a lot of ways to indicate consent. There are a lot of ways to interpret ambiguous actions as consent. These are all potential points in a rape trial, trying to get to the bottom of things and find out what everyone was actually doing and thinking.
If the case is clear that you have sex with someone that is completely unresponsive to you, you are raping them! Don't do it. Consensual sexual encounters require consent. Everyone has to agree to the encounter there is no getting around that. You can make an argument, "I thought they were agreeing because they did x", but having sex with someone who is completely unresponsive to you does not require them to prove that they were incapacitated.
Trying to have sex with someone who appears to be unresponsive (and you have not previously established relationship boundaries), a sane person would stop and ask them if they want to continue. If they remain unresponsive a non-rapist would stop, possibly contact a medical professional to see if anything is wrong. Or, if you already understand that they are in a fucking art project that you stood in line to view, where you found them sitting there in silence unresponsively, as expected by the description of the event, you continue to interact with the display in a way that doesn't involve raping him.
Like I said, I'd love to hear the other side of this story. Maybe Shia is a lying shitbag who totally came on to her and she reciprocated. As the information stands, though, he was raped. I can't help but suspect that anyone that doesn't find that to be a clear line that was crossed to be sociopathic. If you're going to have sex with someone, at least have a trite line about any indication that they might have given that the encounter was consensual.
[–]eletheros 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
There are a lot of ways to interpret ambiguous actions as consent.
And the law interprets the ambiguous action of not rejecting (while still capable) as consent.
[–]Solesaver 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Frankly, it is your responsibility, if you are not receiving consent, to ensure that your partner is capable of providing it. So, no, yet again, lack of active rejection of consent does not equal consent. No sane jury would hold that as sufficient proof that you had consent.
I'll admit that, while in some jurisdictions you may be correct that the prosecution must prove that the assailant used some degree of force, this is in no way a universal standard. Additionally, opposed to your insistence, "rape" is no longer a particularly prevalent legal term. Most jurisdictions use "sexual assault" and variants thereof to indicate the discussed crime. So you can go ahead and stop insisting on your authority over the legal logistics of my use of the word rape.
The man was raped. Any jury presented with video evidence showing exactly what Shia described wouldn't hesitate to convict. There is no technicality to get off on. He didn't provide consent, she had sex with him anyway. This isn't dumbing down of rape. To say that a system that considered this rape would end up considering all sex to be rape is preposterous. There are very clear lines that were crossed.
Then again, if people would stop having sex with people that they haven't obtained consent from, we wouldn't have problems like this. I'm not even close to a feminist, it's ridiculous that I find myself having to defend this position.
[–]dangerousopinions 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
No, it doesn't. The law doesn't define this at all. It just defines when consent cannot be given and how it can be withdrawn. It's still required that one receive reasonable consent in the first place, it just doesn't have a detailed list of what this might entail. This creates a legal grey area which is a good thing because otherwise it would be hard to prosecute any exceptional cases that fell outside of a strict definition. There is nothing in the law that states "consent is: followed by list". There is just "consent isn't: followed by list".
Does that make sense?
[–]dangerousopinions 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, affirmative consent would require that affirmative consent was given in all cases. As it stands now, that's not the case, but that certainly doesn't mean you couldn't bring a case like this to court, it would just be harder to prove. The law doesn't define what is required to give consent, but it defines what is required to withdraw it. If no reasonable person could think they received consent in the first place, they could certainly bring it to trial, there is nothing in the law to prevent that, it would just be a difficult case because typically there is a burden to withdraw consent.
[+]ben0wn4g3 -8 points-7 points-6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Go and die you fucking pig
[–]analfanatic -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Then again we do hear all these new quirky slogans like "No means no" "Maybe means no" "Silence means no". So we could technically take his silence for a no assuming that's what happened. If only people stopped changing the linguistic definition of rape every so often..
[–]Doulich 51 points52 points53 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Shia LaBeouf was allegedly raped, and the rape in question has not been proven. It is unlikely it ever will be, and we will probably never know if he is lying.
If you believe him without any supporting evidence, you're no better than the feminists who claim that whenever a woman cries rape, we should automatically ruin the man's life.
[–][deleted] 55 points56 points57 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I think the point being made is not whether or not it happened, but that Piers Morgan is an insensitive curmudgeon who puts more thought into how sensational his assholery sounds and less on whether or not he should keep his shit harbor closed for business.
[+]Doulich -13 points-12 points-11 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
We don't know what he's referring to. It could be demeaning male rape victims in general, or it could be based on his opinion that LaBeouf is making this up because he's a shitty person.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Eh, it's Piers Morgan. Whatever it is, there's a good bet he's saying to for the sensational reciprocation. By the same token, Labeouf could be pulling a stunt for the same ends.
As far as I'm personally concerned, one famous cat shouldn't get any more attention to his unwanted incident (whether it did or didn't happen) than any of the hundreds of thousands of men without name or face who have experienced such incidents.
I guess all I'm saying is, screw Morgan for being a pig, regardless of if he's right or wrong. Screw Labeouf if he's lying, and if he isn't, use the fact that he is famous to bring attention to people who aren't and have gone through the same shit.
[+]Doulich -8 points-7 points-6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
My opinion is, if he hasn't filed a report, it never happened (as in, not just the rape, but the accusations), if there hasn't been charges pressed, very strong benefit of the doubt for the alleged rapist. If the court case is in progress, I am neutral. If it is not guilty, I'll treat the accused as anyone else, even if I believed the accused committed a rape. If the complaint was, beyond a reasonable doubt, filed frivolously, I believe that there was no rape, but also that the complement lied.
i can agree with that assessment. And if it was filed frivolously, especially if it directly causes problems for a specific individual, then, famous or not, Mr. Labeouf has to pay the piper just like anyone else.
[–]bigboss2014 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, you're wrong. We can believe the mans claims but we don't know who the rapist was, so if suspects come out it would be wrong to treat then as the attacker. That's what femenazis do. That's what mentals do. They try to ruin someone's life. Shia isn't doing that.
[–]Zosimasie 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
whoooooshhhh
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree that we should stick with supporting innocent until proven guilty unlike feminists. That is one aspect of feminism in particular that I have no interest in adopting.
However this comment was shitty because he laughed at the very notion that men can be rape victims. Even if Shia is lying it was still a terrible thing to say.
[–]ilikewc3 -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
took me way too long to find someone who was making sense
[–]TreyWalker 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Piers who?
[–]Hatredstyle 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What a fuckass
[–]arnizach 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I wish I had something more eloquent to offer, but, really, I don't care. F*ck Piers Morgan.
[+]ben0wn4g3 -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fuck you
[–]RationalSocialist 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'd like him to say that to a woman claiming rape. Shit would hit the fan.
[–]BarneyBent 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Feminist here. Piers Morgan is an absolute joke and should never, ever be taken seriously. I don't think I know of a single media personality so widely abhorred by all sides of politics.
[–]BarneyBent 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Exactly. As I said, everybody hates him. Except for the people who like him, but I've never actually met those people and I'm not convinced they exist. If they do, I've got no idea what they believe.
He's alright when he doesn't say anything.
[–]qtyapa 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
so Piers Morgan is the uniter?
[+]ben0wn4g3 -16 points-15 points-14 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
You are a joke
[–]papertiger12 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
When people come here in peace, let them stay and leave in peace. No one is here at your leisure or for your benefit. What you're doing makes everybody here look bad. While you may not be a fan of feminism, feminists should be welcomed as part of the discussion. If all we do is sit behind computer screens slinging mud then nothing happens and stereotypes are perpetuated.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Hey, feminists stereotype us, insult male victims of rape/DV, support women who lie about being raped, silence discussions about men's issues, criticize pastimes dominated by men, and even call for the killing of most of the male population. I'd say feminism does not come in peace.
[–]BarneyBent -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Speaking as a feminist, I do nothing of the sort.
The calls for killing most of the male population are ENTIRELY satirical takes on the view of guys like Elliot Roger. They are in poor taste, definitely, but they are not meant to be taken seriously.
Male victims of rape and domestic violence are actually a feminist issue, believe it or not! Of course, what dominates discussion in this particular subreddit are those examples of feminists who don't actually care about this sort of thing and ignore it. But feminism is not a single, cohesive movement. Hell, all tonight I have been debating another feminist over the approach to the Rosetta scientist who wore the sexist shirt on TV. Not every feminist agrees with how that was approached. In fact, anecdotally speaking, more than half don't! But I haven't collected some decent stats on it. It was a vocal minority that forced him to tears, and fucked up a brilliant opportunity to talk about how people can perpetuate sexism without realising it and being malicious about it. I am seriously fucking pissed off about how that issue was hijacked and turned into an absolute farce.
Feminism is not the enemy. Pretty much every issue you guys talk about are issues I care about as well. Know why? I'm a guy. I'd love to be a stay at home dad. There is a significant chance that if I marry, I'll marry a girl who earns more than I do. I worked my fingers to the bone this year trying to complete a year of university I only chose to do because, as a man, I felt I had to. And you know what? Most feminists are actually trying to address these issues. You don't hear about it in the echo chamber here. But it's happening. I'm a fucking part of it. In another life, I could have been a men's right's activist. Hell, by certain definitions I still am! I mean, I subscribe here.
I guess what I'm saying is, there's a whole bunch of peripheral stuff to feminism, which you can choose to take or leave as you see fit. But ultimately, feminism is about challenging gendered double standards and expectations. And these double standards are what lie behind most MRA issues. And there are plenty of feminists who, while right on the money about certain issues, lose perspective on others! And that's OK! Because none of us are perfect! None of us have a philosophy that entirely captures the intricacies of humanity. We all like to pretend we're rational, and have everybody's best interests at heart, but we don't. We do our best, but we're fucking stupid, and it takes a long process of trial and error and challenging out beliefs to come to something approaching a reasonable position. So when you see a feminist spouting a ridiculous view, stop, and think maybe your view sounds as ridiculous to him or her, and maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Or not. But maybe it does. I dunno, I'm drunk and ranting because Phil Hughes died and it's his birthday and I'm sad.
If feminists are not the cause of some men's issues, surely they perpetuate these issues while lying to others that they care for men.
[–]papertiger12 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So the answer is to resort to doing the same or worse to them? It's fine and good to point out corruption, prejudice and double standards as they are, but you can't expect to gain ground or speak to open ears if you don't allow those with good intentions a seat at your table. Guilt by association with a loose term is stupid. This sub and this movement are mislabeled and incorrectly defined by those looking from the outside in, so we need to be careful about how we present ourselves. Being angry or frustrated is why all of us are here, but we need to channel those feelings into a positive movement for change and equality. If we go around bashing everyone because they label themselves differently, even though we might be able to find some common ground, we have lost the fight before it ever began.
[–]psycho_admin 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
For those jumping the gun here is some more from Piers Morgan:
Journalist Piers Morgan has slammed LaBeouf's admission as an offensive publicity stunt. People are actually defending Shia LaBeouf. The world's gone mad. He's invented a supposed 'rape' for cheap PR - utterly shameful.
Journalist Piers Morgan has slammed LaBeouf's admission as an offensive publicity stunt.
People are actually defending Shia LaBeouf. The world's gone mad. He's invented a supposed 'rape' for cheap PR - utterly shameful.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2014/11/28/shia-labeouf-i-was-raped/19608751/
he isn't saying that men can't be raped or sexually assaulted. he is saying he doesn't believe Shai and thinks that Shai is making this up for the attention.
[–]eketros 20 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Piers Morgan also said:
A Hollywood actor sitting with a paper bag over his head who did nothing as he claims a woman 'raped' him has not been raped.
Which sounds like he is saying that if you don't try to stop it, it is not rape. Which goes against most of the advocacy for rape victims/survivors that I have read.
[–]sugar_free_haribo 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But, to be fair, none of those survivors were raped in the middle of a performance art piece. The circumstances here are unique.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
He isn't saying, "he doesn't believe" it. He's definitively saying Shia is lying, when he doesn't know.
I have severe doubts about Shia's claim, but I do to any claim of rape without evidence and with suspect circumstances. But that's not the point.
Piers is definitely stating something. And if the genders were reversed, do you believe that Piers would be saying these things about a woman? I doubt it. There's also little doubt in my mind that Piers is only latching onto this story to get attention for himself.
[–]psycho_admin -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
He isn't saying, "he doesn't believe" it. He's definitively saying Shia is lying
That is the same fucking thing. To say you don't believe someone is the same thing as saying that person is lying.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't agree.
Not believing someone, still leaves it open for it to be true. Despite your disbelief. It's your opinion on the matter. It's not you saying it is one way or the other, it's just what you think.
Saying they're lying, is just saying they're lying and that it couldn't have and didn't in fact happen. It's definitive that it did not happen.
[–]psycho_admin -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm done talking to you if you are so fucking retarded you are going to try to argue if saying "i don't believe you are telling the truth" is different then saying "i think you are lying". They mean the same fucking thing except to twats who like to argue for the sake of arguing.
[–]bigboss2014 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Which makes zero fucking sense as he just brought out a movie filled with A listers and has been on your getting non stop attention for months.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If he had just been sitting in some room, minding his own business, and someone walked in and started whipping him and raping him, then I might agree with the idea that he was "frozen from fear" and couldn't say no, but that's very far from what happened here.
He created a performance arts piece resembling Marina Abramovich's and provided someone visiting him with a whip. If I went over to someone's house and they handed me a condom, then said absolutely nothing else, that would imply consent. If they turned around afterwards and said "I didn't want that, you raped me," I'd ask them "What did you give me a condom for?" and "Why didn't you say anything?"
He chose to provide that whip and when someone thought he wanted them to use it he chose not to correct their impression. Rape is not, and can never be a question of choice. This is egotistical narcissism, not victimhood.
[–]laxt 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If he still had a show and had Lebeouf on, not only is there a good chance that he'd say this to his face, but to make things "right" by his producers, he'd turn on his concept of journalistic integrity (which is to say, to throw actual journalistic integrity out the window) with pegging the question, "Just how did it feel, getting raped?"
Because that's what Piers Morgan does. Piers Morgan has no sense of empathy, whatsoever. His apparent concept of professionalism reminds me of those kids from grade school who mistake bad/shameless attention as popularity.
Piers Morgan is the modern news equivalent of the sideshow Geek from the old circus and vaudeville days, who would bite a live chicken's head off for a nickel per tent attendee.
[–]rifenbug 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well as if I didn't hate him enough already.
[–]datderenofap 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alex Jones destroyed Piers on his own show lol
[–]looks_at_lines 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have no clue why I thought he was going to say something smart when I clicked that link.
[–]cuppycake_gumdrops 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So basically, Piers Morgan is the English male equivalent to Nancy Grace?
[–]PantheraAtrox 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Being dedicated to your "art" enough isn't rape, sorry guys.
when cnn fires you, you know you're a failure.
[–]muleswithbinoculars 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fuck Piers Morgan. A man could not have less credibility than Piers Morgan.
[–]mrjomanbing 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its shocking that this shit is said by people in those places
[–]bhuddamonk 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Who's Piers Morgan and why do we care?
[–]iMADEthis2post 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think the whole thing looks suspect, that being said, it's seriously fucked up Morgan came out with that.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Everyone keeps assuming and repeating that he chose to stay in character...he never said that.
We don't know why he did nothing to stop it, as he hasn't answered that question...but based on my personal experience people don't always fight back in these types of events. In a time of crisis many people just go into complete shock and are unable to do anything, even to cry out to stop it.
This act may have started out as an stupid attempt to stay in character, and once it progressed too far he just completely shut down in embarrassment and shock that she was violating him...that would be my guess as to how it progressed so far without him trying to stop it.
We have plenty of evidence that this exact "shut down" behaviour happens to women during a rape, but for some reason a man is supposed to mentally react completely different?
There are a lot of people here that seem to have no empathic view of what it is like to be a male victim of rape...shame on them.
[+]dangerousopinions -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
He didn't say that, and we should reserve judgement, but the few details he did share seem to suggest that.
and once it progressed too far he just completely shut down in embarrassment and shock that she was violating him
He's a very powerful man with security within earshot who's been violated by hundreds of people in ways we can't even guess at by the time this girl walks it. That seems like a very implausible possibility.
If the context is an escalating sexual encounter I don't think this "shut down" theory, for which we have very little actual evidence (in this context), is acceptable. If there is implied consent, which there would be in an escalating sexual encounter, it is necessary that the person withdrawing consent, withdraw it in some fashion. The only fear when threats and coercion are not present might be embarrassment or fear of hurting someones feelings or disappointing them. These are not acceptable reasons to allow yourself to be raped, those a pretty low stakes. You can't say nothing and then label your partner a rapist. You do have a responsibility to make your needs known, as we all do as grown adults.
If it's a completely unwanted encounter that did not begin as a mutual one, that's a different story, and the fact that it's even happening could be very threatening depending on the context even if overt threats aren't present.
Far too often though, this story is employed in the former and not the latter.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thanks for your reply.
I'll share this story of a similar thing happening to a woman on a Malaysian Airlines flight recently.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-woman-laura-bushney-claims-midair-sexual-assault-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-20140824-107wzh.html
She was criticised for the same "shut down" behaviour.
"I just keep saying: 'Why didn't I scream, why didn't I shout? Why didn't I stop it? I am a strong person because I can do that, I know I can,'" Ms Bushney said.
"When I was in the moment, I couldn't. I felt so scared, so petrified."
I can relate that this can happen to anyone, myself included. You just go into a self protection mode and shut down out of shock that this is happening to you.
[–]dangerousopinions -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think the story you linked would comfortably fall into the above category.
[–]chmbrs -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You may be right, but it seems unfathomable that a complete stranger in a crowded place with no weapon would be able to do this without him doing anything about it. I wouldn't have any empathy if the victim here were a woman either. You have to take SOME accountability for what happens to you in this world.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
My thought about it is that I believe a his null reaction could be based on his past...if for example he was physically or sexually assaulted as a child or a teen I can see this sort of shut down behaviour occurring under stress.
As a person who has been in this situation I can fully understand the reaction of shutting down and being paralysed completely...so to say to someone (who is a rape victim) flat out that they are responsible for what has happened to them is quite painful and at the same time a gross simplification.
Take a person who was physically abused by his parents as a child, where fighting back is beaten out of you and simply not an option, and then later place them in an adult situation where they are being raped/abused and because of their past they are paralysed to fight back...and then tell them they are responsible for what happened to them because of this damaged psychology causing them to lack the ability to fight back?
We don't know what his skeletons are in his psyche that could cause this. I wouldn't even try to make excuses or estimate what his childhood may have been like as a child actor.
We are talking about a very complex topic when it comes to victim psychology...hence why I stated earlier that there are a lot of people in these threads that lack empathy for the victim.
I'm not sure if there have been studies in victim psychology and this behaviour but I would guess we would need an expert opinion to see if this is normal behaviour for a rape/abuse victim, especially a repeat victim.
[–]MexicanBookClub 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
seems like he had sex with someone he didn't want to in the name of art, which might've been art had he not started calling it rape
[–]glass-on-glass 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"real" rape victims are not women I hope?
What's crazy about this is that a public person like Piers Morgan can say this shit and not get an angry mob after him for being a "rape apologist" or "victim blamer".
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's ok watch this, it'll make you feel better. Shaprio vs. Morgan Nothing better than watch a young man eviscerate an old ignorant pompous one.
[–]dangerousopinions -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He does destroy him, but I do not agree with his politics at all. The U.S has a regulation problem. Solving that problem, in fairness, isn't going to prevent mass shootings. But it will reduce the fire power of gangs and everyday criminals. Almost all of this regulation could be applied only to weapons sales at the retail and second hand level without requiring any more from legal buyers.
People like this gentleman are shills and lobbyists representing gun manufacturers who've quite literally lobbied for policy that would only effect already illegal sales. They're shameless and they have no interest in the second amendment, only profits. Manufacturers don't care who buys their guns so long as they sell them, which is why the biggest regulatory hole concerns dealers; tracking dealers sales and inventory and tracking the rate at which their sales end up being used in crime, and then having the tools to prosecute or pull licenses. Businesses don't have second amendment rights, they shouldn't be treated as if they do at the expense of the public.
[–]TriangleBasketball 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Can you link a direct link to his Twitter?
[–]mrboomx 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Just when I thought piers couldn't be more stupid, he comes up with this
[–]imlesmartest 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
riiight? it could only be worse if i had to hear him say it
[–]ben0wn4g3 -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are a waste of oxygen
[–]Otter_Actual 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
i agree with him, this is just another way for the little asshole to get attention.
Swap the gender and Piers' career would be instantly, INSTANTLY over.
Fucking OUTRAGEOUS double standard.
[–]Sks44 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Piers is an asshole and men are more and more the victims of rape but Shia ain't one of them. Still, Piers is a fuckstick for even commenting since he dos a disservice to anything he comments on.
[–]Tgryphon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Just when I thought I couldn't like that douche bag any less he goes and tops himself AGAIN.
[+]ben0wn4g3 -7 points-6 points-5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
As have you
[–]Tgryphon -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh do please fuck off. Thanks
[–]bat_mayn 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just another drop in the bucket for evidence that SJW's and 'rape culture' proponents are simply bullies.
[–]ukreview 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
the problem with him is that he basically sums up the view of most people in the media. even attempting to get the parliament in any developed country to consider changing the definition on rape is going to be an uphill struggle.
[–]ben0wn4g3 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So this is rape!?
[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I despise that man even more now
[–]ManRAh 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Listen and believe, ya bloody cunt. Cuont. Coooooont.
I'm bad with accents.
[–]kinyutaka 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wait... Shia LaBeouf was raped?
[–]BamaFan87 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fuck Piers Morgan.
[–]richardnorth 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the real rape culture
[–]Vandredd 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Can we deny him a visa? Thats a thing now right?
There is legitimacy to what he said.
[–]ilikewc3 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
So I kind of get the vibe that if a female celebrity pulled the same shit as Shia then people here would not be nearly as supportive. I think we really need to stop picking "teams" and just go with what makes sense. I personally wouldn't take these allegations seriously regardless of the gender of the accuser.
[–]Solesaver 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry, but I don't think my opinion would change if it was a female. From his side of the story (I'm still holding out a completely formulated opinion until I hear what she would have to say) he did not consent to the sexual encounter in any way. That means he was raped.
Perhaps, given her testimony he did something that she could construe as inviting the encounter, at which point the case becomes muddier, but based on his testimony he 100% was raped and has every right to my sympathy.
[–]ilikewc3 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
So then you support affirmative consent laws?
[–]Solesaver 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Do I think one should legally have to get explicit affirmative consent for every escalation of a sexual encounter? No. Do I think a sexual encounter should require some form of affirmative consent? Absolutely. Having sex with someone who has given no indication that a 'normal person' (or w/e terminology courts currently use) could interpret as consent is rape.
So "So then you support affirmative consent laws?" is a bit ambiguous. It would depend on the details of the law.
Also, in any case outside of legal treatment, one can treat an alleged victim of rape sympathetically as a rape victim, while not having sufficient evidence to convict their alleged rapist. I think it is ridiculous how people are treating Shia here.
There is very much room for scenarios like: "I never consented to have sex with you, you raped me, I feel violated." "You did XYandZ, I thought you wanted it. Why didn't you tell me to stop?" "I wasn't able to for reasons ABandC." In this scenario one can be sympathetic and supportive of the 'victim' without convicting (legally or socially) the 'perpatrator'. With Shia, we are very much in a world of interacting with a potential victim that needs support.
We could all do well to have a little bit more empathy for people; both victims and alleged perpetrators.
[–]ilikewc3 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
more empathy is always good, but I don't support validating frivolous rape claims regardless of gender.
[–]Solesaver 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, maybe this never goes to court, it certainly shouldn't if there isn't enough evidence to confirm Shia's allegations. We don't even know who this person is that allegedly raped him. That's how it should be. I'm not advocating a witch hunt here. I just think it is ridiculous the amount shit that is being slung at him for publicly admitting he was raped.
Maybe it's just another publicity stunt, I wouldn't put it past him. I just think it is ridiculous that people are saying horrible things like that he wasn't really raped because he didn't stop her.
I mean, I can imagine a slightly different scenario where he lets her strip him because he is doing an art project involving self-humiliation, but then she crosses a line and he does physically try to stop her and she turns it back on him. I mean I can see Shia being totally frozen here, thinking. "Is she really doing this? WTF is going on. What am I supposed to do now? Is this what I agreed to?" until she is gone.
Ok, some people don't believe him, think he's lying, w/e. People can believe what they want. I just can't believe that there are people that look at that situation and think, "Nah, that wasn't rape." and we aren't calling them sociopaths. Like really? 100% rape if what he said is true. There is just no getting around it. He did not consent to sex, she took it anyway.
[–]ilikewc3 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The way I see it, if things went down exactly as Shia describes them, then there is no way a rape took place. I'm really not big on yes means yes or affirmative consent because I've definitely had sex with people where neither of us said anything. Unless he's leaving something out where he at least informed his "assailant" that he was not down for sex then, as far as I'm concerned, no rape happened here.
100% rape if what he said is true.
What exactly did he say that leads you to believe this? We can't just start locking people up for rape if they have no way of knowing their actions are unwanted.
I realize reddit and mensrights are not hiveminds, but the amount of people I see on here bitching about affirmative consent laws and false accusations in general makes me feel like people are being really hypocritical.
he wasn't really raped because he didn't stop her.
I don't know how I feel about this. In general that is a pretty shitty thing to say when you consider rape by coercion or rape by threat of violence etc, but in this case, where Shia was perfectly capable of stopping this, or at the very least demonstrating even a non verbal lack of consent, I think the statement isn't horrible.
You mention a lack of consent, but in a situation where he has consented to have fans can come up and do literally anything to/ with him then it kind of sounds like he consented to pretty much anything.
Overall I think this is a situation that cheapens rape and unless I come across some evidence, even some statements from Shia about how he demonstrated he did not consent then this is at best a shitty pr thing that cheapens rape and at worst someone so stupid that they think they were raped when they clearly were not and that also cheapens rape.
[–]Solesaver 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm really not big on yes means yes or affirmative consent because I've definitely had sex with people where neither of us said anything.
I'm not big on yes means yes either. There is definitely a point that it no longer makes sense. You may have had silent sex before, but have you had sex where you partner, during no part of your interaction with them, gave any indication that she would consent to sex with you. Like, you literally walked into a room, met them for the first time, stripped them, had sex with them, and left?
I'm not a fan of affirmative consent laws in general because they tend to leave out a lot of room for the nuances of sexual encounters. Sure, legislating around this issue could be tricky because there are a bajillion different places to draw the line. I would just take a stand that if I were on a jury and this was the evidence presented by both sides, I wouldn't hesitate to convict. I'm sorry, but "he/she didn't say no!" isn't an excuse. Really, give me something, anything that you could have misinterpreted as consent and we can go somewhere, but it sounds like he really could have been completely incapable of consent for all she knew, just because he technically wasn't doesn't make her actions justified.
Yeah, "Come do anything to me." doesn't mean anything anything. He was certainly inviting abuse, but lines can be crossed, and I don't think it takes a social genius to find them. I think a generally socially competent person would understand that to mean, anything that will be over once this art project is over. Non-consensual sex (and I mean this from his perspective, not legally, because I hope at least that much is clear) can leave very deep seated psychological scars. A non-sociopath would not inflict that on someone else in this context.
If someone came in and violently beat him, hospitalizing him; that would still be aggravated assault. He didn't agree to that just because he said 'Come do anything to me.' That's not how that kind of invitation works. The only thing that makes rape cases ambiguous is that there are conditions where such interactions are voluntary. The tricky part is finding out not only when both parties want it, but also whether each party has reason to believe that the other party wants it. If someone has given you no reason to believe they want to have sex with you, don't have sex with them. It's really that simple.
[–]ilikewc3 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
except you can't legally consent to aggravated assault really... I think the come do anything to me concept was easily ambiguous enough for some people to think sex was on the table and for him to just sit without giving any indication that things were not ok shows that this wasn't rape.
Non-consensual sex (and I mean this from his perspective, not legally, because I hope at least that much is clear.
I'm really kind of confused on your stance. Are you saying that you think this woman should go to prison and should be a registered sex offender for what she did? Because that's what happens to rapists.
Is this sort of rape, but not legally rape? then why call it rape? why cheapen the very serious nature of rape?
[–]Solesaver 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, I'm not talking about the legal situation with that line. I'm talking about how we should treat and respond to a victim here. Telling him he wasn't "really" raped is horrible. We aren't interacting with the alleged perpetrator here; this is the alleged victim.
There is a lot more to dealing with these cases than the court ruling. Innocent until proven guilty is incredibly important. I'll keep that in mind if I ever interact with the alleged perpetrator. However, Shia clearly feels like he never consented to sex. We can be supportive of him in dealing with this difficult situation.
[–]Druk0ziz 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is why you always have a safe word.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
He's right. If what Shia said happened actually did happen, that was not rape. He wasn't held down or restrained. He chose to let her perform a sexual act on him. At any time he could have pushed her off. He chose to remain motionless for some silly art project.
[–]bigboss2014 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Kid, go read some actual fucking rape reports before you make any more stupid comments.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Lol. Nah, I'm good. Thanks for the tip though. I think it's pretty silly to compare what allegedly happened to Shia to somebody being forcibly held down and violated.
[–]bigboss2014 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Exactly, you haven't a clue.
Haha. Alright then, kiddo.
So all you guys disgusted at Piers would totally be freaking out if a famous woman came out and made a claim as pants on head retarded as Shia's? This is an absolute joke and should be treated as such, regardless of the "victim's" gender.
[–]ThePigmanAgain -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Total piece of shit. Now, if he had said that we don't know what really happened, that would have been fine. But he seems to be implying that it wasn't "real" rape and would he do that if it was a woman making the same claim in the same circumstances? Hell, is he calling any of Cosby's accusers "Silly little women?" No, hence i can only see this as being due to an anti-male bias, women can't rape and all that. I don't usually like that Top Gear guy, but i do envy him for having punched out this little bitch.
[–]ilikewc3 -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
well... this wasn't a real rape. So there's that.
[–]ThePigmanAgain 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Great argument.
[–]guywithaccount -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
There was a female performance artist (whose name I definitely do not remember) who did a similar exhibition several years back. The idea was that she was going to be in this room, and people could come by and do whatever they wanted to her body. She had a variety of things laid out in the room that people could use on her if they wanted: knives, feathers, that sort of thing. It was a piece about vulnerability, or something like that. Made the news at the time, which is why I think some of you will remember it.
She wasn't raped - or stabbed, or even groped AFAIK (or maybe she was and she just didn't say anything about it). But then, the setup was a bit different; I think she was visible to the public through a picture window, and multiple people could be in the room with her at once, so anyone attacking or molesting her might be seen doing it by one or more witnesses.
But suppose she had been attacked. Would we, as a society, actually say that it was okay to attack her? "Hey, the dumb bitch said 'do whatever you want' - obviously she deserved it." Would we let her hypothetical attacker get away with committing a violent crime? I don't think so.
So, assuming this rape actually happened like he tells it, I don't see how this is any different. Yes, he allowed himself to get raped for the sake of his art because he's a pretentious doof, but it's still a rape. And the woman who raped him is still a rapist - but of course nothing will happen to her because manrape, lol.
edit: So I did a little research. The artist may have been Marina Abramovic, who actually did this piece all the way back in 1974. It was a six-hour performance during which the audience became increasingly violent, cutting her clothes and skin and threatening to shoot her with a loaded pistol. At the end of the six hours, when she started acting on her own and approached audience members to confront them, they reportedly ran away - right out the door! She continued doing performance art for years afterward, so I may have confused one of her more modern works, or someone else's work, with this, her most famous work.
Mea culpa.
Kinda ruins my gender-swapped example. I have no idea whether any of those audience members were actually prosecuted. But I stand by the point I was trying to make: just because a performance artist puts themself in the position of being unable to resist or deny consent, making it easy to rape them, doesn't mean that it's okay to rape them, or that it's not actually rape.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I believe that Abramovic used waivers to establish that nobody would have charges pressed against them for what they did while they participated. Though consent like that only goes so far in law. I think part of her point was that if you never questioned what they did, they'd get worse but when you point out just what they're doing, they're going to run away.
[–]Gawrsh 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
However, even in the dark ages of 1974, the possibility of someone taking advantage of the condoms she had on the table was widely considered to be the possibility of rape, waivers or no.
People weren't saying "if it happened she deserved what she got", they were saying "fortunately it didn't happen and she wasn't raped."
I was just pointing out a fact of her performance. I actually was referring to the waivers because they were why she didn't sue the guy who held a gun to her head for two hours for assault.
[–]rg57 -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There was no rape.
[–]kgreyhatk -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I really can't believe the comments on this thread. Just because someone doesn't act the way society thinks that they ought to, you're still questioning the validity of his rape. Again many pose quite the question : if this was a woman no validity would come into question, despite her mental capacity.
If someone says that they were raped, then they were raped until you find out otherwise.
This guilty until proven innocent sentiment on this thread makes me want to vomit.
[–]WagonWheel11 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If someone says that they were raped, then they were raped until you find out otherwise. This guilty until proven innocent sentiment on this thread makes me want to vomit.
wut
[–]kgreyhatk -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What part confuses you?
[–]Mondrial 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
the part where:
followed by
[–]kgreyhatk 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Guilty of lying sweetheart. Semantics.
[–]WagonWheel11 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
indeed. The two points have two contradictory views
In point one you say if someone claims rape, you assume they were raped, implying that the accused is the raper.
You then proceed to say that people should not be assumed guilty
[–]Tutin -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Wouldn't it take a borderline body builder to rape Shia Labeouf?
[–]bigboss2014 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
WTF is it with people thinking the only female rapists are all huge and ugly? That's rarely the case.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Seriously! A female can rape just as easily in a typically "male" fashion without being a Snu Snu.
[–]bigboss2014 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I wouldn't say just as easily, but ye, I agree.
[–]Gawrsh 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What's a Snu Snu? Regional slang?
Futurama reference
[–]Gawrsh 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh! Alright. I'll check it out. I'm somewhat familiar with the show.
Edit: Now I recognize the episode, and I'd just like to ask: what in the fuck were they doing with that one?
Let's see: we have men being savagely raped, explicit acknowledgement that other men have been raped to death, and the writers make it seem like it's the best thing in the world to the male characters involved.
They're actually thanking their rapists for raping them.
I can't believe I didn't see that before when I watched this episode, and I can't even imagine that a cartoon showing women being savagely raped to death as a joke would even get close to prime time widespread viewership like futurama was.
[+]FaceShaver -14 points-13 points-12 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree with him, Labeouf is a terrible human and is seeking attention. Labeouf is the last person you want as a mater for the cause.
He's been in tour for fury for months now. He has been getting the most attention he's ever had in his life.
[–]ilikewc3 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
fucking thankyou these claims are pure bullshit and it's hilarious that anyone would take them seriously. If we flipped the genders involved here people would be freaking the fuck out about false claims.
[–]bfg24 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why would you wish rape on anyone, given you know first-hand how awful it is?
[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well, if he WAS raped, consider that payback for raping Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull.
[–]bigboss2014 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
KotCS is a fairly decent movie. They moved from religion to aliens, not a huge fucking stretch by any means.
Well it's incorrect so.
[–]MBannon2020 -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Someone should rape Piers Morgan
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
...no.
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[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]bigboss2014 -2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ilikewc3 -4 points-3 points-2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ThePigmanAgain -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]ilikewc3 -5 points-4 points-3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ThePigmanAgain 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]guywithaccount -2 points-1 points0 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Gawrsh 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]rg57 -4 points-3 points-2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]kgreyhatk -2 points-1 points0 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]WagonWheel11 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]kgreyhatk -1 points0 points1 point (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mondrial 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]kgreyhatk 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WagonWheel11 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Tutin -5 points-4 points-3 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]bigboss2014 3 points4 points5 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]bigboss2014 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Gawrsh 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Gawrsh 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]FaceShaver -14 points-13 points-12 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]bigboss2014 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ilikewc3 -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]bfg24 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]bigboss2014 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
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[–]bigboss2014 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]MBannon2020 -5 points-4 points-3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link