For context, heres a post i tried to get out there on MensLib regarding the feminist binary perception of men, more specifically dividing all men into either "toxic" or "positive" men:
"Okay, so i get the goal that well-meaning rhetoric about this is trying to achieve, but it will always just be very weird to me. I often hear people comment on a male-presenting individual performing an act of kindness or charity with "Now that's a real man!", which other than feeling highly objectifying in the way it implies that service and charity would merely be the baseline standard that I'm expected to abide by in order to be someone real, rather than something kind and considerate that i went out of my way in doing, it also just sounds absurdly weird to me. Like if a woman did something nice to me or expressed consideration about anything I'm dealing with, then i wouldnt tell her or anyone for that matter "Now thats a real woman!". Just sounds really out of place and irrelevant to the case of a human being wanting to help their fellow human beings out, not to mention objectifying her into someone who is inherently obligated to be a nurturing caretaker. Don't gender goodness in people, because dividing things up into these limiting binaries won't help matters in the long run. Abolishing toxic masculinity isnt done through enforcing "healthy masculinity", because you're just replacing one set of rigid gender norms for another that men have to follow, with standards and expectations born out of the same framework that will inevitably lead to similar issues arising. We gotta do the same good work weve been for women all these decades now, which is liberating and empowering men away from gender norms alltogether, toxic masculinity included, where men in dresses or men who do child-rearing arent regarded as lesser men in the same manner that women today in both western countries and my place of birth in the Middle-East, women in jeans or women in STEM arent regarded as lesser women (Yes, those places exist in the Middle-East. Yes, we also have internet connections and air-conditioning there. My grandmother was a university teacher before retiring and more than half the women in my family work in the medical department, but i digress). I'm sure that people back in the day also divided up women who loved being mothers and nurturers and women who prioritised themselves into similar manners of what we today would call "toxic/healthy masculinity" only with femininity in this case, but that still was very stifling and constrictive to them, or otherwise the feminist movement wouldnt have placed such prevalent emphasis on abolishing those perspectives alltogether. Teach your children that being a good person isn't dependent on "being a real man" or "being ladylike". Good people should be everyone and should be regarded equally from anyone, because otherwise those people will be conditioned into only applying goodness within what would be deemed acceptable from them, which was, is and will continue to happen when you gender different faces on decency. Call out toxicity as a human problem across the board without prejudice, and likewise celebrate goodness as a human virtue across the board without bias, and i promise you that it will do a whole lot more for making humanity a better group to hang out with than all this other weird stuff were doing now. Basically don't be a bigot, this aint rocket-science people."
Now, this post did not make it's way into the MensLib forum, which according to this moderator is due to this: "Posts/comments solely focused on semantics rather than concepts are unproductive and will be removed. Comments picking apart word choices are unproductive and derail the conversation. This is especially not the place to debate foundational terminology. We are a pro-feminism community that uses the framework of feminism to address men's issues. These terms are non-negotiable in this particular space. If you are unfamiliar with or misunderstand a commonly used feminist term, read through our glossary to find definitions and sources. If you still do not understand or do not see the term you are confused about, modmail us for an explanation."
Now, i was under the impression that matters of microagression, generalisation, stochastic terrorism, pyramids of violence, and being aware of how our words and actions affect our perception and treatment of others are highly central points when it comes to feminist discourse. So how is it that even friendly open-minded contribution to said discourse is immediately shut down? This is doubly confusing to me as a person of color, where if i made the exact same argument and only replaced sexism with racism then i truly believe my post would have been allowed up without question. The thing is, i don't feel like i can even bring up that racism/sexism parallel with these people in order to explore the nature of bigotry in general, because it seems like they have horseshoe-theoried themselves so much into excusing the root nature of bigotry by only being able to perceive and understand the specific demographic expressions of it. Like, you really don't need to be aligned to any particular ideology to at least be able to understand the importance of what I'm saying, you just need a tiny morsel of empathy. I would have been a bit more fine with the mod denying the post because they didnt agree with it. But their response clearly states that literally the only thing they ever perceived of it was an argument against semantics, while also for some reason feeling the need to remind me that "We are a pro-feminism community that uses the framework of feminism to address men's issues.", as if the points i was making wasnt openly pro-feminist themselves, using their framework to adress this specific mens issue. I can't even be mad at this point, because even my frustration is laminated in the confusion of not even being able to understand what these people are arguing for themselves. Like what do you want, how do you want it and where do you want it? How should it or should it not apply? Everytime i try engaging with these people in order to get a better idea about their stances and takes in order to be able to have more honest genuine discussions with them, they seem to confuse themselves just as much they confuse me. We don't solve issues like this by twirling around in circles, so just commit forward and move it already!
[–]Maffioze 113 points114 points115 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]molbionerd 25 points26 points27 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skirt_Douglas 69 points70 points71 points (15 children) | Copy Link
[–]Vegetable_Camera50 41 points42 points43 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Skirt_Douglas 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Hollow2Whole[S] -6 points-5 points-4 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skirt_Douglas 50 points51 points52 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hollow2Whole[S] 17 points18 points19 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skirt_Douglas 16 points17 points18 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Hollow2Whole[S] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SchalaZeal01left-wing male advocate 6 points7 points8 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skirt_Douglas 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SchalaZeal01left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Educational_Mud_9062 30 points31 points32 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]independance_soft1 14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Johntoreno 13 points14 points15 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]reverbiscrap 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ElegantAd2607 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Educational_Mud_9062 85 points86 points87 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Present_League9106 53 points54 points55 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Vegetable_Camera50 24 points25 points26 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Present_League9106 20 points21 points22 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Vegetable_Camera50 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ThatQueerWerewolf 26 points27 points28 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]independance_soft1 43 points44 points45 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Overhazard10 21 points22 points23 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Stellakinetic 16 points17 points18 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]HateKnuckle 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Stellakinetic 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]KordisMenthis 10 points11 points12 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]helloiseeyou2020 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]griii2left-wing male advocate 54 points55 points56 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Vegetable_Camera50 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]NotJeromeStuart 27 points28 points29 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kraskter 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]reverbiscrap 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]NotJeromeStuart 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ElegantAd2607 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Soft-Rains 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]LuciferLondonderry 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]pooploop64 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]StarZax 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 22 points23 points24 points (40 children) | Copy Link
[–]Almahue 38 points39 points40 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Global-Bluejay-3577left-wing male advocate 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Stellakinetic 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Down_D_Stairz 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]reverbiscrap 4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]reverbiscrap 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Weegemonster5000 14 points15 points16 points (31 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 4 points5 points6 points (30 children) | Copy Link
[–]Maffioze 16 points17 points18 points (29 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes -3 points-2 points-1 points (28 children) | Copy Link
[–]Maffioze 15 points16 points17 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[+]mankytoes -10 points-9 points-8 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]OGBoglord 15 points16 points17 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sensitive_Housing_85 13 points14 points15 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]HateKnuckle -4 points-3 points-2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sensitive_Housing_85 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Punder_man 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]HateKnuckle1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Punder_man 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Maffioze 11 points12 points13 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]FightOrFreight 9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheFaceRider1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Sensitive_Housing_85 11 points12 points13 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 3 points4 points5 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sensitive_Housing_85 8 points9 points10 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]HateKnuckle -2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Sensitive_Housing_85 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SpicyMarshmellow 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]XorFish 3 points4 points5 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Maffioze 4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Maffioze 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Karmaze 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Karmaze 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]mankytoes1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Karmaze1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Global-Bluejay-3577left-wing male advocate 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Transhumanistgamer 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SvitlanaLeo 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoboZoninator91 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AbysmalDescent 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ChuckDanger-PI 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]THEbeautifuLIE 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheUnobservered1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Jett_Ninja -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]independance_soft1 7 points8 points9 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Jett_Ninja -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Jett_Ninja -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link