Does TRP support rapists? | PurplePillDebate

UniversityofToronto · 2015-02-11T02:23:16+00:00

Off-shoot of an earlier discussion, does TRP enable rapists? Earlier, /u/strongalfalfa commented in a previous thread: TRP is scary because it teaches men how...

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i understand where you are coming from, but i'd like to respectfully disagree.

there have been times where i set out not intending to hook up with a girl, but the girl was too attractive or she said all of the right things. i didn't feel like i was taken advantage of the next day. i'm sure that at least one girl on earth has felt the same way.

there is a difference between pushing back and saying no and pushing back and saying not yet. there is an obvious escalation of intimacy. if i just started kissing a girl for the first time and i just started undoing her pants, she'd look at me like "what the fuck are you doing?"

if i already had her shirt off and started doing that, there would be less of that. similar to the baseball metaphor, you need to pass some "bases" in order to get to the home run.

what /u/TheRedRustler said is exactly that situation. obviously the guy was escalating the situation. most real world relationships the girl isn't the initiator in sexual situations. her mood could have changed.

i've been with appx. 30 girls and every single one of them was different in what they wanted and at what pace. obviously i'm not trying to get mixed up in a situation where there is a chance i can be accused of sexual assault, so i use my best judgement when it comes with how to proceed.

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The 50% statistic is largely just made up.

It's not.

of course this varies by state, but it's the number of presumed rapes that are reported to the police but are very unlikely (or outright impossibly) to be true.

The usual reasons for false rape accusations an inquiry about sex crimes found out were: relationship conflicts, covering up of sexual relationships, puberty-related reasons, attention-seeking, regret sex, shame and embarrassment, fear of pregnancy, revenge, psychological reasons - so it's actually a pretty wide field.

The 50% statistic however doesn't say that the number of actual rapes having taken place is half of the number of reports that make it to the police, since there are also a truckload of rapes that never get reported in the first place and therefore fall under the radar.

Considering that it's one of the pet peeves of feminists that many rapes don't get reported out of fear, this actually makes sense - a person willing to slander someone else as a rapist for whatever made-up reason will hardly have the inhibitions of an actual rape victim.

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Not impossible, but differing shades of unlikely (which by definition includes "actually pretty impossible").

Here, the only one I could come up with on short notice; it's a pretty extensive report (over 300 pages) regarding sexual violence in general from Bavaria from 2005. It says a lot that roughly a third of the report is about false accusations and the forms it takes.

https://www.polizei.bayern.de/content/4/3/7/vergewaltigung_und_sexuelle_n_tigung_in_bayern_bpfi.pdf

The numbers of the police are of course pretty specific regarding the time and the region , but I've read numbers like "~50%", "significantly more than 50%" for "rather false" or "very likely false" accusations more than once and also years later.

If you are inclined to do so, you can go into the nature of the false accusations and the demographics that were most likely to make them (younger women of a lower educational level being at the top) into account.

Though in general this is a hot iron due to the nature of the research; one federal report for example researched sexual violence including the way it's handled by the courts and it even kept the distribution of the likelihood to obtain a conviction (from 4% to 24%, depending on state) under wraps to avoid discouraging women from coming forward in the, well, less forthcoming states. It's very likely that a complete survey regarding the stance of the police isn't really politically desired because of the controversy surrounding the subject.

[–] l_____o_____l Bluish Purple Pill Man -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago * (4 children) | Copy Link

Did you read this bit:

1.3.3 Aktenanalyse zum Vortäuschen von und zur falschen Verdächtigung wegen Vergewaltigung oder sexuellen Nötigung Während für die Auswertung der als Vergewaltigungen und sexuellen Nötigungen polizeilich in der PKS registrierten Fälle auf Grund der großen Anzahl eine 25%-Zufallsstichprobe gezogen werden musste, konnte bei den Vortäuschungen / falschen Verdächtigungen eine Vollerhebung realisiert werden. Insgesamt ließen sich für das Jahr 2000 nur 140 Aktenzeichen zu diesen Delikten aus dem PKS-Bestand herausfiltern20, die dann tatsächlich alle auch ausgewertet wurden. Verglichen mit den 1754 als Vergewaltigung oder sexuelle Nötigung an die PKS gemeldeten Straftaten war die Zahl der polizeilich zur Anzeige gebrachten Vortäuschungen und falschen Verdächtigungen sehr gering. Die Registrierung in der Polizeilichen Kriminalstatistik unter den Schlüsseln für diese Delikte erfolgt nach Auskunft mehrerer sachbearbeitender Dienststellen in der Regel dann, wenn praktisch keine Zweifel mehr am Vorliegen einer Vortäuschung oder falschen Verdächtigung bestehen, weil ein Geständnis des „Opfers“ der angeblichen Sexualstraftat vorliegt oder die Beweislage eindeutig ist.

Or indeed:

Verteilung der Delikte in der Stichprobe Von den 391 ausgewerteten Fällen unserer Zufallsstichprobe waren zwei Drittel (N=262; 67%) Anzeigen wegen Vergewaltigung (PKSSchlüssel 1110) und ein Drittel (N=129; 33%) wegen sexueller Nötigung (PKS-Schlüssel 1120). Verglichen mit den Vortäuschungen (§ 145 d StGB) und falschen Verdächtigungen (164 StGB) fällt auf, dass der Anteil der sexuellen Nötigungen im Datenbestand der Aktenanalyse zu den Vergewaltigungen und sexuellen Nötigungen mit einem Drittel fast doppelt so hoch liegt wie bei den Vortäuschungen und falschen Verdächtigungen (17,1%4). Es werden bei Vorfällen, die zu Anzeigen wegen Vortäuschung oder falscher Verdächtigung führen, von den angeblichen Opfern eher schwerwiegendere Sexualstraftaten geschildert, die nicht nur dem Grundtatbestand des § 177 I StGB, sondern den besonders schweren Fällen zuzurechnen wären.

Finally the 33% number you cite is for both "very likely" and "likely" AND "somewhat likely" combined AND IS JUST IN THE SUBJECTIVE OPINION OF THE POLICE OFFICER. It is also only complaints to police and NOT cases where a report was filed and charges brought:

Die nach Meinung der polizeilichen Sachbearbeiter zumindest „eher“ als Vortäuschung oder falsche Verdächtigung einzustufenden Fälle machen zusammen mit den ohnehin als Vortäuschung oder falsche Verdächtigung angezeigten einen Anteil von etwa einem Drittel an allen den Vorfällen aus, die sich für die Polizei zunächst als Vergewaltigung oder sexuelle Nötigung dargestellt haben.

And for final lols, they also treated all rape claims by known prositutes who admitted to have been working at the time as not rape.

[–] exit_sandman still not the MGTOW sandman FFS 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Did you read this bit:

So äußerte ein Kommissariatsleiter im Zusammenhang mit unserer Aktenanalyse:

„Alle Sachbearbeiter von Sexualdelikten sind sich einig, dass deutlich mehr als die Hälfte der angezeigten Sexualstraftaten vorgetäuscht werden. Viele angezeigte Fälle lassen zwar die Vermutung einer Vortäuschung bzw. falschen Verdächtigung zu, berechtigen jedoch nicht zu einer entsprechenden Anzeige.“

Bezug genommen wird hier auf die Vorgänge, bei denen auch nach Abschluss der polizeilichen Ermittlungen nicht unerhebliche Zweifel an den Aussagen des angeblichen Opfers bestehen bleiben. Ein Tatnachweis für ein Vortäuschen oder eine falsche Verdächtigung ist aber insbesondere deshalb meist nicht zu führen, weil ein Geständnis des angeblichen Opfers nicht vorliegt.

tl;dr: There is neither sufficient proof nor a confession to come to definite, legally viable conclusions in most dubious cases. Doesn't mean they're not dubious.

That said, the way it's handled here is generally fairly dissatisfying (~90% of all rape allegations that make it to the court don't end with a definite verdict) but the only possible way to handle it considering we don't have a foolproof way to detect who's lying and who isn't.

[–] l_____o_____l Bluish Purple Pill Man -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] exit_sandman still not the MGTOW sandman FFS 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago * (1 child) | Copy Link

You'd slaughter any BPer who treated all dubious cases as rapes, so why are you including them in "false rapes"?

I was just pointing out that there are actual sources which are lending some credence to the 50%-claim. That said, there are BPers who treat all dubious cases as rapes, they're called "feminists". Their claim (I've read it several times, from German feminists as well as from Amanda Marcotte) is that only ~3% of all rape accusations are made up, thus pretty much outright stating that 97% have to be factual.

Considering the fact that there his been very little debate over the phenomenon of false accusations in Germany until rather recently (courtesy of a couple of very high profile cases that were either extremely dubious or proven false during the last few years), I think some general sensitivity regarding the fact that there's a reason the police shouldn't believe a person bringing forwards rape claims by default would be in order.

[–] l_____o_____l Bluish Purple Pill Man -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The source doesnt support the 50% claim. It doesnt even MAKE it.

As I pointed out above, your source claims 33% of rape reports to the police are subjectively believed by the reporting officer to be "very unlikely", "unlikely" or "somewhat unlikely".

That doesnt in ANY WAY support the original claim that "50% of rape claims were proven impossible or very very unlikely"

How can you claim otherwise? The number is different, the type of proof is different, and the standand of proof is different.

Its like me saying "Eating cut grass has been proven to cure 50% of all cancers" and citing a study that showed 30% of patients who ate cut grass thought they might recover from cancer.

is that only ~3% of all rape accusations are made up, thus pretty much outright stating that 97% have to be factual.

Dude COME ON. You can do better than that. This is a totally false dichotomy. What about innocent misunderstandings as to what happened, situations in which the man reasonably believed in consent but the woman didnt give it, offences technically not amount to rape that the victim thought was rape, etc etc.

This is also massively moving the goalposts. You were trying to shore up the 50% claim (and failing), not debating a 3% claim I've never made or even SEEN.

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Just to go off on a bit of a tangent here... What a fun and wholly not desperate and miserable existence for both parties! Woohoo where does one sign up for that much reciprocal respect and healthy, organic friendship! Sounds like a dream on both fronts and for both parties who get to bask in contrived, formulaic mutual disrespect!

Oh wait, nevermind. I have internal genitalia and thus I live and thrive on not being highly valued by my mate. What a joy it must be to have an unspoken, manipulative pissing contest for a relationship where only one party gets to elucidate ideas and decisions that are heeded or taken seriously.

Perhaps my girl "tingles" may need some recalibration as nothing gets me hotter for my beloved bluepill man than his thoughtful, egalitarian ideologies. Nothing, I repeat nothing is hotter than displays of bluepill masculinity for women who know what lurks in the murky abyss of terp. And I dare say he's kind of partial to being able to let his guard down around me, knowing that in his moments of weakness and uncertainty he's got a comrade who doesn't stand in judgement of him and who also likes alternating the reins of power within our union. It's no fun not ever getting to navigate the journey, thus we happily take turns curating interesting cool experiences for each other.

tldr; nothing proliferates sex in a union more than actually being cool to your partner and that doesn't mean being belittled yourself in the process.

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I can actually relate to that point of view. That's what I thought sexual assault/rape was before it happened to me, something on Law & Order SVU featuring a stranger with a knife. But this isn't how most rapes happen.

In my case it was a guy in my HS who was popular, good looking, and a star athlete. He acted as if I was lucky to be violated by him, like I should be glad. I willingly entered his home wanting to have my first kiss, and left degraded and genuinely frightened. Apparently my continued pleading for him to stop was less important than his sexual agenda.

No one should ever be made to feel that way, petrified and often unable to comprehend the gravity of what has happened because it doesn't fit the generalized idea of "rape" you have described. I'm tired of being asked what I wore (tie dye t shirt, Nike running shorts), why I didn't fight back (shock, the fact that he had about 11" and 100lbs on me), if i was drinking (I was sober, but would it really have mattered?). Most importantly I'm tired of hearing other women's stories that directly mirror my own. Instead of trying to narrowly define what you'll consider acceptable rape, maybe realize that it isn't just women "unfairly" accusing men and might actually be a societal problem of accepting this degrading uncontrollably-horny-male idea.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Well, you've made several points so I'm going to try responding to most of them, and some of them I'm going to inquire about and some of them I'm going to disagree with.

In my case it was a guy in my HS who was popular, good looking, and a star athlete. He acted as if I was lucky to be violated by him, like I should be glad. I willingly entered his home wanting to have my first kiss, and left degraded and genuinely frightened. Apparently my continued pleading for him to stop was less important than his sexual agenda.

Without going into details as to what happened, all I can do is take your word for it, but that also means I can't just accept your point as I don't know what happened in order to evaluate your challenge of my opinion.

why I didn't fight back (shock, the fact that he had about 11" and 100lbs on me)

Why didn't you fight back? It's not like he could let you walk around school beaten and bruised without someone inquiring what happened?

Most importantly I'm tired of hearing other women's stories that directly mirror my own. Instead of trying to narrowly define what you'll consider acceptable rape, maybe realize that it isn't just women "unfairly" accusing men and might actually be a societal problem of accepting this degrading uncontrollably-horny-male idea.

I would counter argue that trying to stop rape is like trying to stop theft. It's never going away, as long as someone has someone someone else wants. Rape will always exist and it will almost always be because women control the resource men seek most: sex, and sexual validation. That's not to say that rape is ok; it's not, but it's certainly not going away and the acceptance of horny male tropes doesn't really have anything to do with anything. I think people are naturally skeptical of women's rape claims because women have shown an accute lack of desire to accept at least a portion of the responsibility for their actions. I know when I go outside at night in a dangerous area, if I get stabbed, whilst the other party is a criminal that I can press charges against, I was still partly to blame for voluntarily going someplace dangerous. If you get raped, there is blame to come your way, regardless how horrible the other party was to rape you.

[–]slutrypizza 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

Why didn't I fight back? Do you know what happens when you are completely overpowered and realize throwing a fit will bring no good outcome? My voicing of "no", "I need to go home", "I'm not ready for this", "please" were brushed off with ease. He cornered me and no matter what I did his advances continued at his pace, not mine. Arguably there is only one thing that will truly ever be yours, and that is your body. Having your own clearly defined physical/sexual boundaries crossed by someone is not okay, end of story. The degradation of your body forcefully by another is a kind of pain I truly hope you never know, and this pain is only increased when people such as yourself seek to pick apart these events.

Obviously every mind is selective in its classification of truths, but I beg you to see how flawed comparing rape to theft is. Theft is something universally reviled, as well as more easily proven: there is usually evidence of the crime and the loss by the victim is easily measured by the monetary value of the stolen goods. Rape and sexual assault are very different: harder to prove, and yet much more serious.

If I were to claim my laptop had been stolen, how would you respond? Would you accuse me of lying? Probably not, you could plainly see my lack of something I previously had.

Now what about if I told you I had been raped? I'm guessing you are less likely to believe this claim than the former. There is very little physical proof, considering how many survivors shower after to cleanse themselves from the shame. Blaming a woman, or anyone for that manner, for being degraded and used by someone who placed their own desire above the victims, is like blaming that laptop owner for the theft of their property because they simply owned a laptop. Only that property is the victims dignity, confidence, self-worth, and other crucial aspects of a mature and happy person. Instead of blaming the victim, how about we start believing them, supporting them in receiving help, and working towards a day where we won't have to have this argument?

Edit: if it hadn't happened so long ago/I hadn't received MASSIVE amounts of therapy, this conversation wouldn't have been able to happen. Talking about it even now churns my stomach and makes my skin crawl. But it's important that you understand these things, and important that you know not all people who have experienced sexual trauma are able to be so candid about it. It's hard to discuss, especially with someone seemingly determined to undermine the validity of your pain.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I'm not "determined to undermine the validity of your pain", you've made good points, which I respect, however, you've also made some not good points, which I am naturally inclined to challenge.

Instead of blaming the victim, how about we start believing them, supporting them in receiving help, and working towards a day where we won't have to have this argument?

Here, you're advocating that society swing ever more extremely into "rape is the worst thing in the world" territory. Yes, there are many people who will question you about a rape, and many people who will want to make sure you didn't "have it coming" or are responsible to some degree because often these aspects are overlooked. Rape is largely considered the worst thing in the world. Murdering little african babies is more forgivable than a rape conviction in America; at least for something like that, people will make excuses for you and assume you're mentally unstable.

That being said, it's important people make sure they know the context of the events that took place, because there are women who are cock-teases, or who revoke consent non-verbally, and then cry rape.

So, really, if you really think rape victims need to be taken more seriously, your issue should be with women on several different fronts; not men. Men rape for some pretty specific reasons...it's not like your best guy friend for 3 years is gonna decide "hey, tonight seems like a good night to rape Jenny"...these aren't the guys that people need to be worried about. It's the guys who are 32yr old virgins, and the girls who think the world and male gender is theirs to do with as she pleases who are the issue.

[–]CursedLemonA Bigger, Bluer Dick 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Oh man, I almost want to give you Reddit gold because of how "golden" this post is.

Let's take this one step at a time.

Rape is one of the worst things that can happen to a person. This is absolutely undeniable to anyone with even a shred of the ability to think critically.
Women don't fight back during sexual assault because, speaking strictly, it's better to be raped by itself than to be raped and potentially beaten to a bloody pulp. Not only do you not seem to understand the inherent violence in sexual assault, you also think that a person who is in the middle of a terrifying situation is strategizing on how to best imply their accoster's guilt? "If I let him beat the shit out of me, they'll have to believe me!"
"Rape culture" is a wildly abused term but it is there for a reason. If you believe false rape is such a prevalent and important issue, the onus is on you to provide for the existence of the exact opposite concept - a "false rape culture", or the overarching social construct that involves an epidemic of women reporting false rape as a symptom of their social power.
Did you really just try to insinuate that all rapists are just betas (or failed alphas, more specifically)?

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Oh man, I almost want to give you Reddit gold because of how "golden" this post is.

I wouldn't complain. :)

Rape is one of the worst things that can happen to a person. This is absolutely undeniable to anyone with even a shred of the ability to think critically.

With all due respect, you are a lunatic if you think rape is the worst thing you can do to someone. Killing someone, shooting someone, stabbing someone, burning someone, disfiguring someone, instigating a war, hell even some degrees of thieving off someone are all much worse than having unconsensual sex. The fact that people care more that a women gets raped then when I get jumped a d stabbed is a failing of our society,not a pillar

Women don't fight back during sexual assault because, speaking strictly, it's better to be raped by itself than to be raped and potentially beaten to a bloody pulp. Not only do you not seem to understand the inherent violence in sexual assault, you also think that a person who is in the middle of a terrifying situation is strategizing on how to best imply their accoster's guilt? "If I let him beat the shit out of me, they'll have to believe me!"

No, I understand perfectly; I asked her for her answer because I had the opportunity to do so and because many women do fight back...I find it to chose not to fight back..if a man wants to hurt you he's probably just going to hurt you. If he legit is retarded and doesn't understand consent, hitting him is certainly going to make him stop. Furthermore, this happened with a schoolmate...if he started beating her people are going to ask her what happened.

Rape culture" is a wildly abused term but it is there for a reason. If you believe false rape is such a prevalent and important issue, the onus is on you to provide for the existence of the exact opposite concept - a "false rape culture", or the overarching social construct that involves an epidemic of women reporting false rape as a symptom of their social power.

Rape culture doesn't exist and you do not need a culture or epidemic of something to reasonably doubt that a crime took place via the word of one person. That's a ridiculous claim.

Did you really just try to insinuate that all rapists are just betas (or failed alphas, more specifically)?

Nope.

[–]CursedLemonA Bigger, Bluer Dick 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

With all due respect, you are a lunatic if you think rape is the worst thing you can do to someone. Killing someone, shooting someone, stabbing someone, burning someone, disfiguring someone, instigating a war, hell even some degrees of thieving off someone are all much worse than having unconsensual sex. The fact that people care more that a women gets raped then when I get jumped a d stabbed is a failing of our society,not a pillar

You know, ignoring the subtle nuances of the English language is a lot like ignoring the subtle nuances of understanding a complicated issue like rape. I understand that you might breeze over "one of the...", thinking it unimportant, but it still makes you an ignoramus, as does your thinking that no one out there is concerned with the systemic social roots of violent crimes like robbery and/or attempted murder - but I'm sure you've got something implausibly racist or bootstrappy to say about that, too.

No, I understand perfectly; I asked her for her answer because I had the opportunity to do so and because many women do fight back...I find it to chose not to fight back..if a man wants to hurt you he's probably just going to hurt you. If he legit is retarded and doesn't understand consent, hitting him is certainly going to make him stop. Furthermore, this happened with a schoolmate...if he started beating her people are going to ask her what happened.

"Hitting him is most certainly going to make him stop." You are aware that the definition of the word "rape" happens to include nonconsensual sex achieved by physical force, are you not? I just explained to you why a lot of women don't fight back, and you are completely ignoring me. Please stop that...the ignoring me part. Many women do not fight back because they are afraid of being physically beaten. It's that simple. As for your anecdote, I already covered that; rape is not a game of chess where the victim is trying to plan checkmate 20 moves in advance. Obviously you have never suffered major psychological trauma (and have no ability to put yourself in another's shoes), so I'll let you in on a little secret - it's hard to think critically when you're being forcibly violated.

Rape culture doesn't exist and you do not need a culture or epidemic of something to reasonably doubt that a crime took place via the word of one person. That's a ridiculous claim.

First of all, if rape culture doesn't exist, then I can most definitely assure you that no one cares about false rape allegations. Secondly, you're missing the point spectacularly. If crimes are isolated incidents without deep underlying causes, no one gives a shit, e.g. road rage. But rape is not one of those things.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You know, ignoring the subtle nuances of the English language is a lot like ignoring the subtle nuances of understanding a complicated issue like rape. I understand that you might breeze over "one of the...", thinking it unimportant, but it still makes you an ignoramus, as does your thinking that no one out there is concerned with the systemic social roots of violent crimes like robbery and/or attempted murder - but I'm sure you've got something implausibly racist or bootstrappy to say about that, too.

Maybe that's a piece of advice you should consider yourself. I can think of a hell of a lot of crimes worse than rape. Saying "one of the worst" doesn't mean anything if it's...not...

"Hitting him is most certainly going to make him stop." You are aware that the definition of the word "rape" happens to include nonconsensual sex achieved by physical force, are you not? I just explained to you why a lot of women don't fight back, and you are completely ignoring me. Please stop that...the ignoring me part. Many women do not fight back because they are afraid of being physically beaten.

Nothing you've said here is relevant, and no I'm not, it's actually you who are currently ignoring my point, so I'll repeat it. Rape happens for two reasons: 1. because he wants it and doesn't care what happens to you, and 2. because he doesn't understand your consent. So, you can either fight back and if 1. he's going to hurt you anyway, or you can fight back and if 2. he's going to stop.

As for your anecdote, I already covered that; rape is not a game of chess where the victim is trying to plan checkmate 20 moves in advance. Obviously you have never suffered major psychological trauma (and have no ability to put yourself in another's shoes), so I'll let you in on a little secret - it's hard to think critically when you're being forcibly violated.

I'm going to be very honest with you here and tell you that this is a really silly and intellectually immature collection of straw men, non-sequiturs and red-herrings. I'm going to go through it sentence by sentence...

As for your anecdote, I already covered that; rape is not a game of chess where the victim is trying to plan checkmate 20 moves in advance.

No one said it was.

Obviously you have never suffered major psychological trauma (and have no ability to put yourself in another's shoes),

Actually I have. You don't know my life and that's a dangerous assumption that's only going to make you look ignorant and petty.

so I'll let you in on a little secret - it's hard to think critically when you're being forcibly violated.

Meeting violence with violence is the natural reaction of any living creature. NOT fighting back is actually the conscious decisions, so your argument falls apart. Unless it's obvious you're going to get wrecked, in which case, your instinct is to run, which you can't do while being raped. Fight or flight...

First of all, if rape culture doesn't exist, then I can most definitely assure you that no one cares about false rape allegations.

Non sequitur. A "rape culture" is not required for people to care about rape, or rape accusations. We don't need a "murder culture" for people to care about someone going around killling people...I don't know how you connected those two dots.

Secondly, you're missing the point spectacularly. If crimes are isolated incidents without deep underlying causes, no one gives a shit, e.g. road rage. But rape is not one of those things.

This is another non-sequitur. People care about rape not because there are deep underlying causes, but because Feminism, which controls the social narrative of western society has made it an issue and indoctrinated modern generations to consider it a far more heinous crime than previous generations. Rape is not a particularly complicated crime nor does it need falsified personifications in the form of attributing "cultures" to a crime people have been committing since we crawled out of our primordial ooze.

[–]CursedLemonA Bigger, Bluer Dick 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe that's a piece of advice you should consider yourself. I can think of a hell of a lot of crimes worse than rape. Saying "one of the worst" doesn't mean anything if it's...not...

Except...it is...and we can go back and forth sticking our tongues out, or you can do some very simple investigation into the psychological ramifications of being raped. Is it worse than bodily mutilation? I have no idea. But why don't you ask a shell-shocked soldier how he's getting on, since he still has all his limbs. I'm sure he'll tell you everything's just damn peachy.

Nothing you've said here is relevant, and no I'm not, it's actually you who are currently ignoring my point, so I'll repeat it. Rape happens for two reasons: 1. because he wants it and doesn't care what happens to you, and 2. because he doesn't understand your consent. So, you can either fight back and if 1. he's going to hurt you anyway, or you can fight back and if 2. he's going to stop.

Understand this - I don't give a shit what you would do in that situation. I am explaining what other people do actually do, and why. Either you can sympathize with it, or you can be callous, that is entirely your prerogative.

Meeting violence with violence is the natural reaction of any living creature. NOT fighting back is actually the conscious decisions, so your argument falls apart. Unless it's obvious you're going to get wrecked, in which case, your instinct is to run, which you can't do while being raped. Fight or flight...

So your assertion is that the only possible reactions to extreme stress are fight or flight. That might be the most wrong thing I've heard in months - it's so wrong, in fact, that I'm just going to let it stand as how unbelievably wrong it is for everyone to admire.

Non sequitur. A "rape culture" is not required for people to care about rape, or rape accusations. We don't need a "murder culture" for people to care about someone going around killling people...I don't know how you connected those two dots.

Could it be because there is no "murder culture"? But there most certainly is a "violent crime culture", the disparities and injustices of which can be traced to many different economical and sociological root causes. In fact, you could say it's the exact same flipping thing in that regard.

This is another non-sequitur. People care about rape not because there are deep underlying causes, but because Feminism, which controls the social narrative of western society has made it an issue and indoctrinated modern generations to consider it a far more heinous crime than previous generations. Rape is not a particularly complicated crime nor does it need falsified personifications in the form of attributing "cultures" to a crime people have been committing since we crawled out of our primordial ooze.

Or, and it's a big "or", maybe industrialized societies are finally realizing what a heinous crime rape is, now that women have collectively surpassed the status of arm candy and can vote and do things besides pop children out.

[–] AFormidableContender Purple Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Is it worse than bodily mutilation? I have no idea.

One person was forced to have sex when they didn't want to, my counter is having to live with this:

http://www.pakistaniwomen.org/images/acid13.jpg

And your answer to whether or not one is worse than the other is..."I don't know"...? I am very ever rarely speechless. You have rendered me speechless.

But why don't you ask a shell-shocked soldier how he's getting on, since he still has all his limbs. I'm sure he'll tell you everything's just damn peachy.

Actually, that's a good example of standards. Rape is large in part viewed as so heinous, to the point of causing you to be unsure if it's a worse crime than melting someone's face off because there's no standard by which psychological elasticity is held too. Soldiers go through some tough shit but nothing a soldier sees in the middle east fighting a denizens of nations who haven't progressed past the 14th century would have compared to the amount of devastation a first world country like Germany would have been able to cause to Allied combatants during the first and second world war. Those soldiers toughed it out for 6 years because there was a standard. People live up to the standards you set for them and getting over seeing your buddies get sawed in half by 20mm flakveirling batteries wasn't an option; it was a must. PTSD is an acceptable reason to be discharged or have a tour cut short nowadays, and whilst I'm not defending that it isn't, having a bunch of guys call you a pussy and walk it off is a hell of a lot of incentive to not wallow.

Understand this - I don't give a shit what you would do in that situation. I am explaining what other people do actually do, and why. Either you can sympathize with it, or you can be callous, that is entirely your prerogative.

Then your input on this topic is of no value as if what you're saying is true, then women should be questioned harder and women should be educated to resist violently. You're right; this has nothing to do with me, my callousness or my sympathy. This is all about women.

So your assertion is that the only possible reactions to extreme stress are fight or flight. That might be the most wrong thing I've heard in months - it's so wrong, in fact, that I'm just going to let it stand as how unbelievably wrong it is for everyone to admire.

Apparently, you don't know much about brain chemistry, but yes, fight, or flight are the only two responses people have. There is an area of your brain called the periaqueductal grey, which may sometimes cause your muscles to freeze if your subconscious for some reason believes panicking will make your chances of survival worse, but generally fight or flight is your only option. Doing nothing and letting someone rape you could just as well qualify as "flight" actually, but suggesting my point was so wrong as to attempt to shame me publically only makes you look scientifically illiterate. Congratulations.

Could it be because there is no "murder culture"? But there most certainly is a "violent crime culture", the disparities and injustices of which can be traced to many different economical and sociological root causes. In fact, you could say it's the exact same flipping thing in that regard.

If you want to disrespect the term "culture, I mean sure, you can call anything a culture. I'm encouraging keyboard culture right now by typing this out into my support of textbox culture to support Reddit culture. What is culture? How is it being used? If you wanna talk about rape culture, you first have to define how culture is being used, and in this case, it's being used to mean that rape is trivialized, that people in someway embellish it as a way of living actively spread from one human being to another so as to be pervasive. Crime is not embellished except by those criminals who perpetrate it, therefore it's not a culture. You could argue crime is a culture in that movies often feature fantasize about crime, but then you'd have to prove people take their ques of what is and what is not worthy of real life embellishment from movies. Rape is not a culture as no one embellishes it. No one spreads it as a good and positive thing actively except rapists, who usually themselves don't view rape as a positive thing, and no one's making art, or cultural touchstones in regards to the embellishment of rape, and you yourself admittedly believe permanent removal of the face is not worse than non consensual sex, therefore it fails to meet all criteria of the dictionary definition of a "culture".

[–] CursedLemon A Bigger, Bluer Dick 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually, that's a good example of standards. Rape is large in part viewed as so heinous, to the point of causing you to be unsure if it's a worse crime than melting someone's face off because there's no standard by which psychological elasticity is held too. Soldiers go through some tough shit but nothing a soldier sees in the middle east fighting a denizens of nations who haven't progressed past the 14th century would have compared to the amount of devastation a first world country like Germany would have been able to cause to Allied combatants during the first and second world war. Those soldiers toughed it out for 6 years because there was a standard. People live up to the standards you set for them and getting over seeing your buddies get sawed in half by 20mm flakveirling batteries wasn't an option; it was a must. PTSD is an acceptable reason to be discharged or have a tour cut short nowadays, and whilst I'm not defending that it isn't, having a bunch of guys call you a pussy and walk it off is a hell of a lot of incentive to not wallow.

This all boils down to you disbelieving that rape causes such severe psychological repercussions. At that point, I'm really not sure what to tell you. Substance abuse, debilitating flashbacks, self-harm and suicide, these are common features of a rape victim. But yeah, I'm sure they're just being "pussies" and should probably just "walk it off". Frankly, going by what you believe, so should Acid Wash up there. Everyone can make the best of what they've got and look forward to the future, right? All they have to do is just have a winner's mentality. Or something.

Then your input on this topic is of no value as if what you're saying is true, then women should be questioned harder and women should be educated to resist violently. You're right; this has nothing to do with me, my callousness or my sympathy. This is all about women.

My opinion was to listen to the rape victims about their own suffering, so thanks, but you're not sneaking by on that one.

Apparently, you don't know much about brain chemistry, but yes, fight, or flight are the only two responses people have. There is an area of your brain called the periaqueductal grey, which may sometimes cause your muscles to freeze if your subconscious for some reason believes panicking will make your chances of survival worse, but generally fight or flight is your only option. Doing nothing and letting someone rape you could just as well qualify as "flight" actually, but suggesting my point was so wrong as to attempt to shame me publically only makes you look scientifically illiterate. Congratulations.

Newsflash - even if you were a neurosurgeon, that doesn't make you a psychologist. The freezing response is a very well-documented psychological phenomenon, both in animals and in humans. The fact that you are unaware of the campaign to replace "fight or flight" with "fight, flight, or freeze" (they even added a fourth one called "fawn") is absolutely laughable considering how hard you're trying to discredit me on the topic of science. So, you know, "congratulations".

If you want to disrespect the term "culture, I mean sure, you can call anything a culture. I'm encouraging keyboard culture right now by typing this out into my support of textbox culture to support Reddit culture. What is culture? How is it being used? If you wanna talk about rape culture, you first have to define how culture is being used, and in this case, it's being used to mean that rape is trivialized, that people in someway embellish it as a way of living actively spread from one human being to another so as to be pervasive. Crime is not embellished except by those criminals who perpetrate it, therefore it's not a culture. You could argue crime is a culture in that movies often feature fantasize about crime, but then you'd have to prove people take their ques of what is and what is not worthy of real life embellishment from movies. Rape is not a culture as no one embellishes it. No one spreads it as a good and positive thing actively except rapists, who usually themselves don't view rape as a positive thing, and no one's making art, or cultural touchstones in regards to the embellishment of rape, and you yourself admittedly believe permanent removal of the face is not worse than non consensual sex, therefore it fails to meet all criteria of the dictionary definition of a "culture".

Okay.

You win, Contender.

There is no "rape culture", or "violent crime culture" either.

Since you've beaten me in the realm of semantics, they will henceforth be known as "systemic sociological factors related to the depression of status of and violence conducted toward females" and "systemic sociological factors related to the desperation behaviors of the socially and economically disadvantaged".

Seeing as you have such a problem with the terminology, I hope this suits you. But then you're probably the type of person that assumes that after the Civil Rights Act was passed, all racism in America just vaporized overnight and there was not a disadvantaged minority in sight.

[–] AFormidableContender Purple Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This all boils down to you disbelieving that rape causes such severe psychological repercussions. At that point, I'm really not sure what to tell you. Substance abuse, debilitating flashbacks, self-harm and suicide, these are common features of a rape victim. But yeah, I'm sure they're just being "pussies" and should probably just "walk it off". Frankly, going by what you believe, so should Acid Wash up there. Everyone can make the best of what they've got and look forward to the future, right? All they have to do is just have a winner's mentality. Or something.

That's not at all what I'm suggesting. You're straw-manning because you don't want to let go of your emotional investment in your beliefs. My position is that rape is bad, certainly not THE WORST. That is all. Very simple. If you say rape is "amongst the worst crimes", you are wrong. That's it, that's all.

My opinion was to listen to the rape victims about their own suffering, so thanks, but you're not sneaking by on that one.

Since when are rape victims not listened too?

Newsflash - even if you were a neurosurgeon, that doesn't make you a psychologist. The freezing response is a very well-documented psychological phenomenon, both in animals and in humans. The fact that you are unaware of the campaign to replace "fight or flight" with "fight, flight, or freeze" (they even added a fourth one called "fawn") is absolutely laughable considering how hard you're trying to discredit me on the topic of science. So, you know, "congratulations".

You didn't counter my point, you just said something lacking nuance which was empirically untrue and used it to counter something I said lacking nuance that empirically untrue. If anything, I'll give you a 50/50 on this one, but no, you haven't countered me.

"systemic sociological factors related to the depression of status of and violence conducted toward females" and "systemic sociological factors related to the desperation behaviors of the socially and economically disadvantaged".

Now,...if only women were actually any of those things...

you're probably the type of person that assumes that after the Civil Rights Act was passed, all racism in America just vaporized overnight and there was not a disadvantaged minority in sight.

No. That's an odd and historically illiterate thing to believe. Why would I think something so silly?

[–]slutrypizza -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

All of these things have been the case in 0% of the survivors I've met, male and female. I do believe that rape is up there with the worst things you can do to someone. Murder ends a life, but rape murders a piece of someone's being yet they continue living. And as someone who has been to Africa to help children (the best experience of my life), I can report that rape is also a prevalent issue there, but "murdering babies" is definitely not forgivable anywhere.

A woman has the right to end a sexual interaction whenever they please, as does a man. However when a partner ignores this and commits sexual assault, you question the person who received the trauma? I can guarantee you that the majority of rape claims are truthful, and most of them go unreported to the police. Rape is often a he said/she said battle, which makes it harder to prove to a male dominated world where terms like "cock tease" and "crying rape" are employed to argue why women are irrationally set on blaming men for rape intentionally. Often sexual assault IS committed by someone the victim trusts, because a rapist most often employs manipulation, not roofies. Rape is a betrayal, and can be committed by any gender. Rape is about power and control, not sex. And for every one false allegation, there's countless other actual cases that aren't reported for fear of the repercussions of someone like you making them feel like they're on trial when they already feel worthless.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A woman has the right to end a sexual interaction whenever they please, as does a man. However when a partner ignores this and commits sexual assault, you question the person who received the trauma?

Of course they do, but the issue is people withdrawing consent half way through, non-verbally, and then claiming it was rape afterwards. On top of which, it's a crime with only two witnesses...the alleged raper and rapee. People not only will question, they need to question, and im my opinion, question the woman claiming rape much more stringently. Far too many rape cases are rush-to-judgement farces because the Feminist social narrative have painted rape as the worst thing in the world, of all time, ever, worse-than-Hitler ever, in the history of humanity.

I can guarantee you that the majority of rape claims are truthful, and most of them go unreported to the police. Rape is often a he said/she said battle,

Glad we agree on something.

which makes it harder to prove to a male dominated world

Wait. Stop. The world is not male dominated. If anything, it's female dominated by a factor of magnitude. God, I WISH the world was male dominated, then maybe I could get some of that male privilege I mailed away my cereal box coupons for.

where terms like "cock tease" and "crying rape" are employed to argue why women are irrationally set on blaming men for rape intentionally.

Male culture in which words like "cocktease" exist doesn't necessitate or prove male driven social narrative, ie. patriarchy. It proves only that males have a culture, as do females in which women say equally crass things about men and claim men are irrationally set on perpetrating malevolent acts upon women as well.

Rape is about power and control

Sex IS power and control for men. We're the gender that has to work for our love, appreciation, sexual partners, and validation whether it be sex or love. You are not. Men do and will form complexes around that. Women don't because when a woman wants to get laid, she can load up Tinder, swipe right on the first guy she sees and be balls deep within 15minutes. It can take a man days, months, years, sometimes decades to find a sexual partner. This is the root cause of rape and why rape is a male dominated crime.

And for every one false allegation, there's countless other actual cases that aren't reported for fear of the repercussions of someone like you making them feel like they're on trial when they already feel worthless.

I'm sorry our first world judicial system in which the accused is innocent until proven guilty is inconvenient for you /u/slutrypizza. I truly am.

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He also pointed out how fucked up it would be to rape a woman just in case she wanted it.

I'm sure he may have. I can't remember that special well enough, but in any case, it's beside the point, but thanks for making note.

EDIT How do you reconcile this with very attractive men committing rape (which happens)? Partner rape? Rape where the woman would have willingly had sex with him?

So, how do I reconcile guys who can get sex turning to rape anyway? Because most people don't really want what they can get. Taking what you want is hot. Not many men could deny raping a chick would be...hot. I mean men have been raping women since the dawn of time. It was much more common in the middle ages when armies would march cross country for years. On top of that, as I've said, a lot of women want men to do this; to take them. This is arousing.

Most romance is actually done by a man "taking" something. It's only an issue when it gets to actual sex. How many women's lady-boners would deflate if the guy you're flirting with goes "so, I'm going to try to kiss you now. Do you consent?". "I'm going to grab your arm and lead you someplace else now. Do you consent?".

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A pretty big proportion of men in prison, I suppose.

'Thirty-four percent (n = 11) of the deniers described their victim as unwilling, at least initially, indicating either that she had resisted or that she had said no. Despite this, and even though ('according to pre-sentence reports) a weapon had been present in 64 percent (n = 7) of these 11 cases, the rapists justified their behavior by arguing that either the victim had not resisted enough or that her "no" had really meant "yes." For example, one denier who was serving time for a previous rape was subsequently convicted of attempting to rape a prison hospital nurse. He insisted he had actually completed the second rape, and said of his victim: "She semi-struggled but deep down inside I think she felt it was a fantasy come true." ... In another case, a 34-year-old man convicted of abducting and raping a 15-year-old teenager at knife point as she walked on the beach, claimed it was a pickup. This rapist said women like to be overpowered before sex, but to dominate after it begins.

...

Research shows clearly that women do not enjoy rape. Holmstrom and Burgess (1978) asked 93 adult rape victims, "How did it feel sexually?" Not one said they enjoyed it. Further, the trauma of rape is so great that it disrupts sexual functioning (both frequency and satisfaction) for the overwhelming majority of victims, at least during the period immediately following the rape and, in fewer cases, for an extended period of time (Burgess and Holmstrom, 1979; Feldman-Summers et al., 1979).

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Yes. Not if you go into a rape victim's support group and say "HEY DID ANY OF YOU LIKE IT", but do you really think that people never admit to shameful things in anonymous studies?

It's well understood that partner count studies are totally fudged because women lie down and men lie up to hide shame on either side. I think "yea, I loved getting raped by a stranger" is a fucking lot more shameful than "I banged that guy at a party once. That sucked". I think you're being naive to the moon and back if you really think women are going to admit to enjoying their rapes.

Committing rape is far more shameful than being a victim of it

This is a false dichotomy because those committing a rape are usually doing it because they either don't care about the victim, or as a "fuck you" for incel'ism. THEY probably aren't that ashamed. Society does shame them. Being a rapist is on par with mass murdering a bunch of black babies...you're not getting far in life once you've been convicted of rape. You don't even get "innocent till proven guilty"; people will immediately disassociate themselves with you. This happened in my very own city last year...we had a major case with a chick at a party alledgedly being raped by members of the university hockey team. Only 2 of the players actually committed the act and the entire team got fucked over, the team was disbanded, they all lost their scholarships, and were barred from a bunch of other universities. They had to transfer schools and find someplace that would take them so they could finish their education for merely being in the association of two alleged rapists. The trial isn't till March. So, no, the shame of being a rape victim, at least in society is not at all close to being a rapist. Whatever the individuals themselves feel is subjective.

and yet a study has found that 6% of college men will admit to having attempted or completed a rape.

Source it.

Bestiality is one of the most taboo sexual acts a person can commit, but people have admitted to that in anonymous surveys too.

Given the current sexual climate in western culture, that's not really surprising at all. It's no where near as taboo as incest, or specific fetishes, like clowns, or balloons.

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Dumb, dangerous assumption. Louis CK was making fun of that assumption, hence why this conversation started--because you pushed your shitty agenda onto a joke you didn't understand. If I made a post attempting to argue why all blacks are murderers based on my misinterpretation American History X, see if somebody doesn't call me out on it. That's what happened here. Don't get buttsore about it.

Or, I could have attempted to use a joke I heard a year ago as a tangential comment to a point I was making that had nothing to do with an "agenda", but we can go with your version if it makes you feel better.

The only person who's buttsore here is you making an issue out of the least important sentence in my original post. It's kind of hilarious that given the content of my argument, you chose to take issue with the Louis CK reference. Stop looking for boogeymen in other people's posts before setting yourself right first.

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Body language. This is the issue with the Feminist concept of consent: the ability to tell when someone is saying no but they actually wanna do it and when someone is saying no and they seriously mean "NO" is, like, kindergarten level social skills.

But see, the issue here is this: a lot of people really, really suck at reading body language. And they probably don't even realize it. I myself thought I was normal at reading facial expressions until I was evaluated by a neurologist. I TOTALLY BOMBED the facial expression interpretation test. I mean, it was well into autism levels. It completely shook my entire perception of myself.

Now, that was around seven years ago, and since then I have put effort into trying to improve that ability, and I think I'm better than I was -- but I already thought I was okay at it, so without another test, who can say?

And I'm not saying you have to be autistic to be like this. I'm female. We are either taught or wired to be better at this, generally, even if we are autistic. It's partially why a lot more boys are diagnosed as autistic than girls; girls just learn to hide it better with social conditioning. Some studies have suggested that, socially speaking, many autistic females are on the level of some neurotypical males (Baron-Cohen 2008).

So basically, for a non-zero portion of the population, relying on body language is not necessarily a safe way to go, and employing "kindergarten-level social skills" may be the only thing stopping a rape.

(Additionally, I suspect higher-than-average rates of autism in the TRP community, because of the extremely analytical approach; most people don't apply quite so many statistics and so on to social interactions. But that's simply a suspicion for which I have no evidence.)

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Okay, so a guy can't have anal sex with his wife while she's drunk - holding her to a previous agreement that they'd made - or it's rape? Did he say he forced her to have anal sex, or was he implying that she was able to agree to it because she was drunk, and therefore more receptive (mind you, he did not say passed out or blacked out drunk).

Technically speaking, if a woman starts reaching for her SO's asshole during sex, and he says 'no', and she sticks her finger in there anyway, she's committed rape in pretty much every state in the union. Women do this all the time, and yet we never hear of it being prosecuted as rape. This to me is strong evidence that just because something could be legally prosecuted as rape, does NOT mean that a typical person would regard it as rape.

If a woman can do anything she wants sexually with a man, with or without his consent, and he can never prosecute, and yet he could never so much as apply 'presumption of consent' to a situation involving sex with his own wife, doesn't that imply that he's actually being raped by society as a whole, who considers his right to say 'no' to be absolutely meaningless? If a man has no right to say 'no' and have it mean anything in a court of law provided that it was a woman he said 'no' to, does that not mean that every act of heterosex he's ever engaged in was actually the rape of a man by a woman? If a white slave master has sex with his african female slave, is that not considered rape in our society, even if she said 'yes', merely because she has no power to say 'no'?

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I agree with you on most of the statements you make.

Correct. In a marriage the wifes gives consent when she married him. A marriage also implies sex.

When a wife denies sex to her husband this is a form of abuse from the wife. It is the equivalent of a husband who refuses to go to work to make money to buy food and dowsn't care at all what happend to the family.

I cannot comment anymore because I have to wait 7 minutes and i wanted to tell you my opinion. I am sorry so many people attack you without understanding what you are trying to say.

I also wanted to tell you that I think you exagerated when claiming rape is the solution. If men end up raping women that means our civilization was already destroyed and the seducers ruined good people.

I also wanted to show you an article about reproduction that i found very interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_side-blotched_lizard

They have three types of males all with different reproductive strategy. Orange males who are "alphas" and are dominant , biggr, and have more territory. Blue males that are smaller and have a reduced territory and one female, and yellow males (the omegas, seducers) that have no territory and sneak to fuck the females of other males. In this specie there the type of male is geneticaly predisposed. I tend to think that in mammals things are more complicated and not only the genes determine if someone is alpha, beta or omega.

Let me know what you think of this situation with this lizards.

[–]autowikibot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Common side-blotched lizard:

The common side-blotched lizard (Uta stansburiana) is a species of side-blotched lizard found on the Pacific Coast of North America. It is notable for having a unique form of polymorphism wherein each of the three different male morphs utilizes a different strategy in acquiring mates. The three morphs compete against each other following a pattern of rock, paper, scissors, where one morph has advantages over another but is outcompeted by the third.

The specific epithet stansburiana is in honor of Captain Howard Stansbury of the US Corps of Topographical Engineers, who collected the first specimens while leading the 1849-1851 expedition to explore and survey the Great Salt Lake of Utah.

Image ⁱ

^Interesting: ^{Side-blotched} ^lizard ^| ^List ^of ^reptiles ^of ^California ^| ^Fauna ^of ^California ^| ^Mojave ^Desert

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[–]caamib 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]confused890 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

http://news.ucsc.edu/2003/06/367.html

This article shows research of unrelated male lizards cooperating to mainain their mates. Blue lizards keep away yellowlizards from females of other blue lizards.

Fromthe article: "Once they've set up neighboring territories, the genetically similar blue males apparently work together to guard their mates. The result is an average "fitness" level (measured in terms of the number of offspring they produce) three times higher than that of blue males without such neighbors. Orange males, in contrast, suffer a decrease in fitness if they have a genetically similar neighbor, and they tend to avoid settling near other orange males."

Isn't this the beginig of a cooperative society (or coalpha) in terms of reproduction ?

And a question. Do you think that reproductive strategies used in human males are also determined geneticaly like in lizards or there are other factors, like the environment and education? In humas I think that there is a much more complex behavior pattenrs and more complex reasons.

[+]caamib -73 points-72 points-71 points 11 years ago* (212 children) | Copy Link

All sane men should support rapists. They might be the only hope for our race.

https://caamib.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/shoes/

It was a late, warm August evening somewhere in the beginning of 2010s. The location was one of the islands on the Adriatic. I was coming back from a dinner I had with a friend. We were walking along a road, somewhat removed from the coastline. Then we started to hear a screaming female voice in the distance. At first we didn’t really pay much attention to it – it was a busy summer season and various sounds, including people screaming, were heard all the time, especially at night. Hell, right at that moment a bunch of young French tourists were giggling about something.

Still, as we were walking the sound was getting louder and we also noticed people rushing over the road to the beach. So, being bored and not having really anything to do, and knowing that something was indeed up, we went towards where the sound was coming from and where most other people seemed to be going as well.

Anyway, after a minute – minute and a half we arrived at the beach to witness quite a scene. A young girl of about 17 or 18 in a somewhat damaged but not tattered dress was crying and crawling on the beach, apparently, if one could hear her unconnected whining for long enough to make some sense out of it, looking for her shoes.

By that time a crowd of some 50 people had already gathered and some were around her, trying to help this girl in obvious disarray and one person had found her one shoes, a black summer ballerina, and was bringing it to her. By that time a police vehicle had already showed up. I now first heard from some of the bystanders who had been around her earlier and then retreated into a crowd that it seems she had been raped.

Some more minutes passed by, with cops around her, when we started hearing some more screaming from a different source. Apparently her family member, probably mother, had arrived to the beach and was wailing. The whole tone reminded of that scene with the drowned woman in the movie Talented Mr Ripley, despite the myriad of differences between these two situations. Now it was night, the crowds were mostly degenerate looking young German and Italian tourists, and the girl was alive. More of the wailing attracted some of the locals as well, who mostly kept away during the summer or ran small shops that were springing up everywhere.

Anyway, the story was finally clear to me. It seems some young local punk raped her and ran away. By this time things were settling down a bit and it was quite late and me and my friend had to go, as we had a day of packing and preparing to return ahead of us.

Less than two days later, we left the island at dawn. We had no idea what happened later that night, during the next day or later.

However, some months later my friend told me that he had heard from somebody that the girl was dating this same man who had raped her. The source was an extremely reliable local.

Their relationship had been shitty, as he openly cheated on her and would often hit her, and from what I understand it finished somewhere down the road but the point is that she was raped and loved him for it.

Now think about what you can expect as an incel !

You are made to finance this, to be a worker drone so that sluts can be raped so hard they can’t find their shoes and love their rapists for it.

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I'd very much like to leave the West, but don't have the means and can't obtain them

Flights are not expensive. Especially one way flights. This is a shitty excuse.

So I have decided to stay here and give Western women just what they want - to be treated like manure they are.

They don't want that. If they wanted you would be drowning in pussy? No?

The entire world is a shithole more or less.

It isn't. You are shit and you are projecting that onto the whole world.

amazing development it used the have

lol

now that is over and their children are destroyed.

So much drama, just like in my anime!

So while it's still in some aspects more comfortable to live in the first world this means little if they have no future.

Projecting again.

It means even less to a young man who can't find a wife.

That's because you are forgetting that a wife is not a thing, a wife is a person. I don't get how you can't find a wife since you are such a charming young man. You are ready to treat them like dirt, just like they want.

Get help.

[–] caamib -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago * (8 children) | Copy Link

Flights are not expensive.

But settling somewhere where you don't know the language or anybody is.

If they wanted you would be drowning in pussy? No?

I stopped going on dates before I developed these views I have now fully, so no. Every time I'd coerce a woman into sex or just plain ignore her she'd end up respecting me more.

It isn't.

No arguments.

lol

Western world didn't have the most amazing development in the history of the world? And, bro, guess what? All of that was created by nerdy men who had wives. Such men are seen as losers now and rapists and criminals as heroes.

then some more insults, lack of arguments and PC bullshit (it doesn't matter what a wife is, sane men can't find one) until we finally get to...

since you are such a charming young man

We finally made it to the key issue ! Charming??!! You mean seductive, which is the greatest crime and should be punished worse than rape?!

Yes, I am indeed not charming, like you said. Nor should anybody else be.

Men who are "charming" are worse than any rapist or any murderer.

[–] SpookySkeletons 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–] caamib -1 points 0 points 1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–] SpookySkeletons 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Talk about my arguments or fuck off.

But you don't have any. I would love to dwell in the mind of a madman, but you are only whining.

Lets go sentence by sentence then.

You do know that a nerd is basically an insult now?

It isn't. In fact nerd culture is on a rise and is getting more and more popular. See hipsters.

That nerds are seen as losers?

Some people do see them as losers, but thats because some people are very ignorant. Why would a nerd care if some asshole thinks he is a loser? Unless that nerd is very insecure and needs validation from assholes.

Also, I know the kind of men women today date.

Let me guess, it's assholes. I never considered myself aggressive nor did I treat any of my girlfriends bad. I am not even good looking, probably average, maybe even below average. Never had a problem getting along with women and usually had a girlfriend.

I'm sorry if your BP (I am not a RPer but know how stupid BPers are) glasses prevent you from seeing that.

I have never been to BP, I think it's redundant. TRP has no real power, it's a collection of sad single guys jerking each other off. Being a spectator to that is not one of my interests.

Your claim about wives is a PC bs because I never said that they aren't people.

You just claimed that women want to be treated like shit. Which is objectively not true. Try talking to a woman who has been abused in a relationship instead of talking shit.

I said that good men can't get one and you started to blabber about me seeing them as things.

But you are. Getting a wife is already bullshit. Shouldn't you try to form a relationship with a woman first? You claim to know what woman want but fail at every level and blame seduction. Ridiculous.

You claim to be anti-PC. Well, guess what kind of people say shit like that?

I am. I am also anti-feminist. The issue is that I am a moderate so both sides think I am satan.

Regarding your last claim - same what you told me: citation needed

my source: http://www.reddit.com/user/caamib I think this exhibit is a clear indicator of the mental state of user /caamib

Talk about my arguments or fuck off.

But you don't have any.

[–] caamib -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–] caamib 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago * (4 children) | Copy Link

Except that I didn't even try to post any personal information of anybody on Reddit or anywhere else. There is a group of sociopathic lunatics online who think they'll harm me but what they don't understand is that this is basically impossible for various reasons.

For example, let's say they do have my real name (which they can't agree upon themselves) and that I have done nothing to somehow obfuscate that by various legal means at my disposal.

It would still mean nothing to somebody who will never ever have a job again nor would he ever want anything from a woman but brutal sex and wouldn't spend a date doing anything but humiliating her in a vicious way.

All they're achieving is justifying the inevitable backslash that is due to occur.

Btw, you call that idiot scummy but I'd argue that it's also scummy to call people what you call me.

[–] SpookySkeletons 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago * (3 children) | Copy Link

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That's not true. Look at the rates of infanticide and cross species rape in animals like lions and dolphins. The infanticide could be justified for mating reasons, but dolphins rape other animals and gang rape males in their territory just for fun or for punishment. Killer whales and cats play with and torture their food before killing it.

We feel far more empathy than most species. Most other species don't have time or energy for much empathy. Especially solitary non pack species.

[–]caamib -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

but dolphins rape other animals and gang rape males in their territory just for fun or for punishment. Killer whales and cats play with and torture their food before killing it.

And this was a significant part of most military operations or just armed conflicts of any nature in history, for example.

We feel far more empathy than most species. Most other species don't have time or energy for much empathy. Especially solitary non pack species.

We are also to feel a much wider array of emotions obviously so it kinda evens out. But my point is that modern "humans" feel no empathy at all. As I said, it's completely unbelievable that most of the mainstream society claims to have empathy for some groups and no for any others. That's not how empathy works. So it's entirely believable that it's utterly feigned.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

That's exactly how empathy works. You empathize with those you feel some connection/relation/and or parallel to. That's why dehumanizing is a thing. It's not feigned, it's just hard to relate and thus empathize with anything you don't have similarities or a connection with.

[–]caamib -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

They're human, but not relatable. Easy to dehumanize.

[–] caamib -1 points 0 points 1 point 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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You can look at many scenarios where the exhaustion is done beyond the point of necessity to where the predator is expending more energy than need be to safely take down their kill.

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[+]caamib -25 points-24 points-23 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

There's a thing called gaslighting and mental abuse which is the only reason I can think a rapist could keep his victim in a "relationship."

Cut the crap and feminist lingo. He straight out fucking raped her, was even reported for it and then dated her.

You talk about 1955 standards and skanks, whatever that's supposed to mean

Around 1955 women were still decent and considered their chastity valuable. Today a "consent" of some skank is as valid and necessary as used toilet paper.

cro-magnon animal filth like you and your fellow rapists have no place in the modern age

Huh? My fellow rapists? I have never raped anybody. Which was a grave mistake, since rapists are extremely popular in an era of sluts. Who cares how somebody fucks them. Their "consent" is a joke, their pussies public good.

[–]winstonsmithluvsbbamused masturbationery 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–] MrPenisGuy69 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you five years old? Just because someone else you've argued with uses anecdotal evidence doesn't mean you can do the same and I'll believe you.

You don't seem to know the definition of "suffrage" or "depend." Women being dependent allowed for an enormous economic boom, and has only immensely helped men (and absolutely everyone) financially.

Why do you think most women are undeserving of the aid they've received? Men have gotten much more benefits since that era as well. It has to do with modernization, not malevolent women sucking the system dry. How many hilarious conspiracies can you manage?

There are a million factors that have changed the amount of unmarried women getting married. Modernization, change in societal norms, decreases in marriages etc. are much more likely culprits than every woman on the earth magically poofing into a slut. Think again.

[–] caamib 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just because someone else you've argued with uses anecdotal evidence doesn't mean you can do the same and I'll believe you.

What the hell are you talking about? What does this even relate to? I told you that even mentioning conspiracies with me ends the conversation, you reply with something else, and that something else makes no sense.

Women being dependent allowed for an enormous economic boom

Initially yes, but in the long run it meant that the very fundamentals of decency and sanity would collapse.

Why do you think most women are undeserving of the aid they've received? Men have gotten much more benefits since that era as well.

Yes, and that's what destroyed family and society, since women no longer needed a husband.

It has to do with modernization, not malevolent women sucking the system dry.

I agree. It is men who brought upon feminism as a force in the legislature and government.

I stopped reading when you mention that word again but if you want to understand my views please read

https://caamib.wordpress.com/the-story-of-your-incel-an-inconvenient-truth/

[+]caamib -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]caamib -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Feminists don't promote rape, but their actions lead to a rape based society.

Changes in modern society dating back from 1920s and possibly earlier created a society where women were no longer dependent on providers, which made them choose men who use seduction. These men were always seen as utter scum in sane societies and were despised and avoided by women. These men lack co-operation and intelligence, just like they lack responsibility, so they can chase other men's wives and produce many kids the government takes care of. With time, the overall intelligence will drop to a minute level and even seduction becomes too complicated for new feral generations. Thus the only thing they can grasp is simply raping a woman. Of course, feminists support all the policies that lead to this, like alimony, child support, AA and everything else that eliminates the need for good men. So, in a sense, feminists are in the long term against all non-rapists. Of course they are not aware of this nor would they ever see it that way but that's no big surprise, since feminists are idiots.

[–]MrPenisGuy69 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the most ridiculous conspiracies I've read in a LONG time. Most women don't choose men based on seduction, and vice-versa. What in the world makes you think this?

And do you honestly believe that most of the reforms that have come since 1920 have been regressive? If you do, then you are very, very delusional. Please learn history 101.

If you weren't a huge misogynistic fuck you would realize that because of feminism and the reforms from that time, women can:

vote; own property; legally enter into a contract; start a business get a job outside the home; choose a profession other than nun, nurse or teacher; not quit working when they get married; not be fired or denied a job just because they're pregnant; choose whether to work or stay home; keep their own money; not be property of a man; get a divorce; get an abortion; use birth control; file a lawsuit; have sex without being married; choose who to love and marry; choose whether or not to get married; go to college; enter nontraditional fields of study or career; receive scholarships; serve in the military; go into a bar; get a tattoo; walk alone in public; wear pants; choose what to wear; choose whether or not to have children; participate in athletics, even participate in the Olympics; march in a protest; get laws against marital rape; get laws against stalking; get laws against child molestation; get laws against sexual harassment get laws against spousal abuse; get laws against rape and courts that uphold them; get laws for parental leave for both parents; codify basic human rights for women, especially in marriage; draw attention to women’s health issues like breast, ovarian and uterine cancer; fight for equal pay for equal work

But of course none of that matters if you have white skin and a penis and believe women are subhuman. Like you.

You, sir, are trash.

[–] caamib -1 points 0 points 1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]caamib -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You wish harm to half the human race in the name of "leveling the playing field"

You have to understand one crucial thing - there is a current world and a sane world. These are not the same.

Current world- I think this wouldn't harm them currently in that it would cause them discomfort if we see what current modern Western women are.

Sane world- rape is wrong, but you need to create a sane world for it to be wrong and for women to be bothered by it.

then continue by saying that animalistic behaviour in men should be normalised

It will be normalized by stupidity and feral nature of modern young people. It can't be normalized by any law. That's not how things work.

The rest are bs phrases about things I either never said or... just bs phrases.

I never said that it would equal things out.

I said that you need to be a special kind of scumbag to seduce, but that anybody can rape, even decent men.

[–]sugarkid 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]caamib -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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[+]caamib -15 points-14 points-13 points 11 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

Yes, context is really important. Thanks for noticing that.

You see, in a sane society rapists are bad. In a sick society where seduction is used they can level the playing field by allowing even men who can't use seduction to achieve success.

As I said in that article

Rapists are a great hope of non-retarded men, for they make it much easier for us who aren't retarded enough to seduce to level the playing field. Anybody can rape, but only the most vile men can seduce. This doesn't mean that rape would be good in a sane culture, but in this insane culture it's the best way out men who can't leave the West have. As time goes by and intelligence declines (which will mean that seduction will be too hard to grasp for today's feral kids) rape will be more and more spread. So you could have an upper hand if you acknowledge this now, when seduction is still dominant. The key to success is starting early. So get informed and think about this.

Also, you do know I'm not a RPer?

[–]Armenian-Jensen 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[–] caamib -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Semantics? Can play this game, sure.

Seems that the definition you use is influenced by two modern things a) a modern belief that all consensual sex is a result of seduction b) a sex obsessed society that just emphasizes sex.
You point out one of the definitions there. This one is closer to my views

: something that attracts or charms

I see charm and flirting as trying to get something for nothing.

Traits like being charming or flirty add nothing to human race. If a man fools around to get sex that's bad, since he will take turn women into sluts and won't take care of the kids he might create.

Do you think that courtship is the same as seduction? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/courtship?s=t

For example, I like this definition

Ethology. behavior in animals that occurs before and during mating, often including elaborate displays.

But think this should be done by a man proving he is a good future provider and a father/husband. Today it isn't done so but by acting like a dumbass.

[–] Armenian-Jensen 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–] autowikibot 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Second-class citizen:

A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there. While not necessarily slaves, outlaws or criminals, second-class citizens have limited legal rights, civil rights and socioeconomic opportunities, and are often subject to mistreatment or neglect at the hands of their putative superiors. Instead of being protected by the law, the law disregards a second-class citizen, or it may actually be used to harass them (see police misconduct and racial profiling). Systems with de facto second-class citizenry are generally regarded as violating human rights. Typical impediments facing second-class citizens include, but are not limited to, disenfranchisement (a lack or loss of voting rights), limitations on civil or military service (not including conscription in every case), as well as restrictions on language, religion, education, freedom of movement and association, weapons ownership, marriage, gender identity and expression, housing and property ownership.

Image ⁱ

^Interesting: ^First-class ^citizen ^| ^Buchi ^Emecheta ^| ^Citizenship ^Act

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

[–] caamib -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–] Armenian-Jensen 2 points 3 points 4 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–] Armenian-Jensen 1 point 2 points 3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Every time i shoot you down, you just resort to even more horrible shit.

Your opinions and teories are just so falsifiable it hurts. "Women have no empathy for men". I have met a woman who had empathy for men. I just disproved you. Your tirades against women makes me believe that you are the one unable to feel empathy towards women. "sluts are unrapeable"?. Jesus fucking christ.

I dont need to debate you, because for every sentence you write, you dig yourself further into the mud. I keep writing to you, because i so dearly hope that you are not so bad as i emagine you. You must have experienced so much trauma in this life that it have made you delusional without a connection to reality. reading your blog just confirms that. I feel sorry for you.

But by all means, if you want to keep your delusion going, lets keep debating: Why do you think women have no empathy for men?

[–] caamib -1 points 0 points 1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You don't shoot anything down, bro. I was under a temptation to cut this discussion short but honestly, you don't seem that dumb. So I read through all this crap which is mostly about "I'm right!" claims sprinkled with some arguments.

Empathy thing - you are entitled to your opinion as much as I'm to mine. Since there is no objective way to prove either of our claims you haven't disproved anything.
I have experienced traumas, yes. Severe, life destroying traumas. I will not give you the link where to read about these. I don't want my traumas laughed at by somebody. Wanna read, try looking my feb 26 2014 post and that's all I'll say.

Regarding empathy - my argument comes from tribalism. In tribes women had to take care of kids and other women but men had to take care of all groups. So women failed to develop empathy for men. This is obvious if we see how they react to a man crying as opposed to men reacting to a woman crying.

[–] Armenian-Jensen 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–] caamib -2 points -1 points 0 points 11 years ago * (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] Armenian-Jensen 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] caamib -1 points 0 points 1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] paperdollrage 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] caamib 0 points 1 point 2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bigkeithmack -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Does TRP support rapists?
Author	UniversityofToronto
Upvotes	14
Comments	489
Date	February 11, 2015 2:23 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2vhoi7/does_trp_support_rapists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-trp-support-rapists.283533 https://theredarchive.com/post/283533

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