Let's talk about "Healthy Male Sexuality"

Leinadro · 2016-05-31T20:34:54+00:00

Laws against revenge porn

The reason men support recording their sexual encounters isnt to save it for revenge later. They support it because such a record can save them from being falsely of rape/assault later. I think you are comparing apples ("i want a record of the sex acts as a defense against false claims later on") to oranges ("i want to have a record of the sex acts ao that if she ever hurts me I can hurt her back" or "i should be able to secretly film women").

Affirmative consent

Men arent pulling this from nowhere. They get this from women themselves who straight up say asking spoils the mood. Men arent trying to say its natural ti eavage a women without permission. They are saying there should be a middle ground where consent and instinct meet.

Also another issue with affirmative consent is that it still leaves room for a woman to consent to sex now and then turn around later and say ot wasnt consensual.

Whats the guy gonna say, "She was into it at the time."? So getting affirmative consent really doesnt do much good after the fact yet its being touted as the perfect end all be all solution.

Cheating

And Ive also seen it argued that when a man cheats its his fault foe cheating and when a woman cheats ita hus fault for doing whatever he did to make her cheat.

Personally I say just leave him/her rather than cheat.

Boys will be boys

The problem is it seems the only time anyone has a problem with this when it affects girls.

Age of consent laws

No actually MRAs talk about age of consent laws mostly regards to how sex crimes (namely statutory rape) are handled in terms of gender. Mainly the fact that the gender of the victim snd perp has more bearing on how seriously its taken and punished than the crime itself.

Some men seem to be claiming that the only reason anyone could possibly object to a grown man dating a teenager (younger than the age of consent) is some sort of jealousy or spite.

I dont see this very often.

When in fact there has been quite of bit of study done on the subject, and many experts agree that the sort of power imbalance that occurs during a teenager/adult relationship can leave lasting damage on the younger party such as depression, issues with self-esteem, ect.

Oddly enough this type of analysis of adult/child sex seems to only come up when its man/girl.

Men are properly recognized as being manipulative when they take advantage of kids. But when women do it all of that analysis goes out the window and she gets the kid gloves because she isnt happy or is confused.

I actually agree with what you say. What I and mras point out is how it is inconsistently brought up.

What mras question are things like questioning why a man simply approaching a woman gets him called a creep, or why boys are held to a higher level of sexual responsibility than girls, or why feminists condemn inequalitiesn that favor men while defending inequities that favor women.

tallwheel · 2016-06-01T04:50:54+00:00

I was excited to see a topic about male sexuality, but disappointed to read the content which is just more shaming and strawmanning of the manosphere.

You're framing the manosphere the same way so many feminists have: loss of male privilege. No, I think not. I think the manosphere is about gaining new rights for men - many of which are rights or privileges women currently enjoy, like say, the right to the presumption of innocence, privilege to not consent to parenthood every time one has sex, right to not be always assumed the aggressor, and the privilege to stray while still maintaining a veil of victimhood. (I'm addressing the points in your OP here, in case it wasn't clear.)

If you could step back and put yourself in the place of a man (especially an unsuccessful one) in today's society instead of relying on your feminist indoctrination, you might actually develop some compassion for men, but instead all you can see is a bunch of manbabies whining about their lost privilege, and a bunch of women who are their victims.

joseremarque · 2016-05-31T19:23:31+00:00

I don't think these issues have anything to do with "healthy male sexuality" so much as power and the perceived loss of it. I refuse to believe that the need take advantage of someone sexually is an innate feature of male sexuality or masculinity... I also don't think the concept of "consenting adults" is all that difficult to work with, not do I have any sympathy for people who do.

Eulabeia · 2016-05-31T21:16:12+00:00

laws against revenge porn

Seems fair on its face I guess, but also has the potential to be enforced in less than agreeable ways.

affirmative consent

Lots of women even on reddit will admit that they are turned off by men doing this type of stupid shit. People who bring up this topic just seem like huge social retards and are a minority. I have no reason to give a shit about "affirmative consent" because I don't get involved mentally ill feminists, which are the only people that are at all concerned with that.

I have seen it argued that while it is reprehensible for a woman to be unfaithful, it is not only natural but expected for men to stray.

Meh. Some women are fine with their man sleeping around. Some women aren't. I don't think one way is the right way all the time for everyone.

"Boys will be boys"

I have only ever heard this phrase when talking about boys roughhousing with each other, not used to excuse the supposedly terrible things that they do to girls all the time. This shit is a complete feminist fabrication to me.

they're told at a young age that when a boy gets rough with you and hurts you, you should take it as a compliment

I don't know how often guys behave like that but with girls it's not uncommon at all for them to be mean to the guys they like. It's even common enough for the Japanese to have their own word for it. I don't think it's necessarily wrong either.

Some men seem to be claiming that the only reason anyone could possibly object to a grown man dating a teenager (younger than the age of consent) is some sort of jealousy or spite

I've yet to see anything come close to convincing me otherwise. I've even seen posters with blue pill flair on here admit to this.

Uulmshar · 2016-06-01T00:45:01+00:00

Girls who grow up in this kind of relationship may never know who they might have been had they been left alone, or with a peer.

And girls who grow up with a similarly-aged partner may never know who they might have been had they dated older people. Big whoop.

Entropy-7 · 2016-06-01T04:51:29+00:00

Revenge Porn

I can't speculate on the numbers, but "revenge porn" is probably a very small portion of guys recording their encounters. A lot likely just want to "revisit the moment" on occasion, some others will have a few giggles with their buddies. Red Pill men are motivated to do so as a defensive measure against a false rape accusation.

Affirmative Consent

Anyone who thinks that affirmative (and ongoing - let's not forget that one) consent is or should be normal doesn't have a lot of sex and are rather ignorant of the dominant (and otherwise healthy) dynamic that has been playing itself out in bedrooms for ages.

Even the "no-means-no" standard made reality give way to a workable criminal system. However, "yes-means-yes" is basically an impossible standard to meet given the plain meaning of the rules and knowing a bit about human nature.

Oddly, the only place that affirmative consent is used on a regular basis is in BDSM culture where surveys and signed contracts are not uncommon. Even then, it falls apart in terms of ongoing-affirmative consent in most cases. Safe words are widely used, but making it a legal requirement to say "yes, yes, more, more" is asinine.

Cheating

Too many TRP members take the "sexual strategy is amoral" mantra about 6 steps too far. There is a good chunk of the manosphere that does not endorse cheating and a significant portion that advises against it.

Then again, there is the duh-factor involved where an ostensibly monogamous LTR girl will use sex to control or punish the guy, and will cut him off for an extended period for some piddling reason. . .and then she is surprised when he cheats on her?

Age of consent laws

You are mixing up two issues. Issue one is where you have an older man and a younger woman. YMMV on where the age of consent should be, but once over that threshold then the woman/girl is fair game for any guy of any age who can game her by legitimate means. Outside of NAMBLA I am not aware of any real push to lower the age of consent such that 50 year old men could have sex with 13 year olds.

There is an issue about absolute liability offenses. AFAIK, the constitutional limit for being tossed into prison is the negligence standard. In this case, if you took reasonable steps to verify the age of the girl then you can't get locked up if it turns out that she was underage. Some places get around this by various means such that the context doesn't matter and there are no steps you can take that will guarantee you won't get arrested if you end up having sex with an underage girl.

Issue two, which seems to get a lot more play, is in respect to the lack of a "close-in-age-defense" in many jurisdictions. The most retarded manifestation of this would be if two consenting 17 year olds could be both charged with raping each other. More commonly, you have a girl just under the age of consent and a guy who is just over it, and the guy's life gets ruined.

Many jurisdictions have the proviso that it is not illegal to have sex with someone the same age or up to two years younger (in some cases). The MRAs seem to be pushing for that to become more common so that 19 year old guys are not going to jail because they have sex with their 17 year old girlfriend.

obstinatebeagle · 2016-06-01T05:22:29+00:00

I think most of those bullet points have pretty much nothing to do with male "sexuality" as such. There are 2 that I will comment on though to tell you how men feel stifled and vilified:

Affirmative consent

"Boys will be boys"

These are both flip-sides of the same coin (in the latter case I am going to talk about older teens and men, not young children). In affirmative consent, it is somehow the man's responsibility to obtain consent, and in many cases if he straight out asks the answer will be "no". Try to put this in context - men do the vast majority of initiation/asking out, mostly to replies of "no"; men do the vast majority of escalation (first kiss etc), most to replies of "no"; young men in particular do the vast majority of trying to initiate sex, mostly to replies of "eww - no!" from their female companions. So you've got to understand that by the time a man approaches you or meets you, he's got a long and illustrious history of being rejected and told "no!" many times over and over again. Affirmative consent just piles even more inequality and power over him onto that pile - from his point of view it is not so much an opportunity for the woman to say "yes" as it is another chance for her to tell him "no!" yet again, often with a smirk or grin to rub it in even for good measure.

Following on from all this rejection that young men grow up around, it becomes normal to believe that people will be mean to you if you are dumb enough to let them - especially women. So a tactic they easily fall into is to "get 'em before they get you". If you're mean to a girl, she doesn't get a chance to be mean to you first.

"Healthy" male sexuality is one in which men are not constantly subjected a barrage of "no"s for the vast majority of their romantic lives. It's not healthy to be rejected so much and so often. Imagine if in your job you were subjected to a constant stream of rejection, and if you left and found a new job that stream of rejection followed you there too. And yet, this is the "sex life" that the vast majority of young men lead. No wonder they develop a mistrust of women.

GornoP · 2016-05-31T19:36:33+00:00

Could someone help me wrap my head around the "Affirmative Consent" thing -- are BOTH parties required to obtain affirmative consent from the other, or are men singled out?

I think a better concept might be Affirmative Male Sexuality. instead of listing prohibitions and shit, start making lists of what we DO expect healthy men to do.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-05-31T21:01:33+00:00

revenge porn ... I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

It's not only healthy, it's necessary. Secret recording is the only realistic way to protect yourself from a false rape accusation under BS affirmative consent laws that place the burden of proof on the accused.

If you insist on laws that force men to record their sex lives to protect themselves, then many of them will do so. It's healthy to want to stay out of jail regardless of your opinion on the subject. I'd much rather have my freedom than your approval, thanks.

Affirmative consent: Every time this comes up, there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood. That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission

Let me stop you right there. Not having a verbal "yes" is not automatically equal to ravaging a woman without permission. There's nuance, body language, a woman may well be into it without actually saying so. It should not be a crime to fuck a chick who is grinding against your cock while moaning, "no we shouldn't". And if you disbelieve that scenario, you are every bit as guilty of a lack of imagination as you accuse others of.

Cheating ... I do not consider this to be healthy.

No argument here, other than that I don't see very many individuals arguing expressly for the right of men to cheat while not being cheated on. It is different to theorize that men are more hardwired for polyamory because of simple biological facts (sperm = cheap, eggs = expensive) than to argue that men SHOULD be allowed to cheat while women should not.

"Boys will be boys": Me and many other women I know where all shoved into the dirt by a boy at one point during our childhoods

And many men i know have had their self esteem, reputation or mental health shredded by some individual, or even clique of "mean girls" (the fact that there is a trope about powerful, malicious teen girls speaks volumes). Yet, because the feminist imperative sees shoving as an abomination but ignores quintessentially female behaviors like verbal attacks/manipulation, it's just going to keep happening.

Toughen up, or at the very least, apply your standards evenly and start looking at the advantages females have thanks to their victimhood mantle, how they abuse their pussy pass routinely, and how men and boys suffer as a result. Get back to me when you have an action plan for dealing with your gender's own crimes, which can't even be discussed openly without the speaker being branded a misogynist MRA, then we can talk about "boys will be boys."

What this woman describes as her source of turmoil sounds to me like exactly the sort of situation some men want when they pursue younger women: someone to mold, someone impressionable, easily impressed and eager to please, content to be a man's accessory because she thinks it makes her mature. I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

So what? Do you know for a fact that all relationships with a 16 year old and 24 year old have been about power imbalance? No? Then banning all inter-age relationships is as dumb as banning all interracial relationships because of "some experts" (feminists) drivel about white men exploiting asian women.

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2016-05-31T19:25:07+00:00

I think the only thing that is unjustifiably being attacked is the fact that men have a higher sex drive at all. I am someone that thinks women should be free to be naked and do whatever the hell they want and men shouldn't do anything, however, to say that it is wrong for a man to not have the internal state of attraction and unconsciously glaze his eyes over there is what's gets me, those are things you don't have any control over. That's like getting angry at a gay person for having gay thoughts, like, at a certain point you are just fighting against their innate biology. Similarly I think hate against pornography falls into this same camp, at a certain point, men just need to fap.

daveofmars · 2016-06-01T00:44:13+00:00

Out of the list, I think the aspects that truly apply to male sexuality are: affirmative consent, cheating, and age of consent laws. I don't know who you've run into or what arguments they've used for justifying stupid things, but things like revenge porn I have only heard in the context of being abnormal.

"Healthy male sexuality" is a lot more basic, but keep in mind we don't really live in "healthy" living conditions, and in those conditions it's easy for perfectly normal impulses to be directed into destructive ends.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T11:43:42+00:00

Laws against revenge porn: In the past two days, there have been two different threads in TwoX in which hidden cameras were discovered.

What hidden cameras have to do with revenge porn?

Affirmative consent: Every time this comes up, there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood. That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission

Strawman as fuck

Cheating: I have seen it argued that while it is reprehensible for a woman to be unfaithful, it is not only natural but expected for men to stray. That it is completely reasonable to go behind a spouse's back for sex without their knowledge or consent for whatever arbitrary reason.

[citation needed]

"Boys will be boys": Me and many other women I know where all shoved into the dirt by a boy at one point during our childhoods and told "boys will be boys" when we voiced our objections. "It means he likes you." This sort of conditioning sets girls up for a life of misery when they're told at a young age that when a boy gets rough with you and hurts you, you should take it as a compliment.

Just flat out complete fucking nonsense and possibly another strawman

When in fact there has been quite of bit of study done on the subject, and many experts agree that the sort of power imbalance that occurs during a teenager/adult relationship can leave lasting damage on the younger party such as depression, issues with self-esteem, ect. From the article

Article is not a study

The article cites one study

Abstract makes it blatantly obvious the "study" pushes an agenda and is not even about what you claim it is(it's about statutory rape)

So. Agree, disagree?

Try to make a case that holds up to any fucking amount of basic scrutiny first

kavihasya · 2016-05-31T22:23:51+00:00

You are definitely noticing some symptoms of how our unhealthy approach to male desire results in unhealthy, power-focused ways of men acting out their desires in a way that hurts women.

I think that the biggest problem with our understanding of healthy male sexuality is this:

Male sexual desire is inherently public.

That is, because erections are noticeable, a man can be "called out" and humiliated for his desires. That means that unlike women (who can secretly desire all kinds of things with no one the wiser) men are constantly needing to perform their desire for women, for each other, etc.

This pushes men into the situation where if they desire something that society deems inappropriate, they can either be humiliated, or blame the subject of their desire for being the cause of the inappropriate desire. I think that this fear of humiliation is formative as it is a constant fear for young men in the first years of sexual awakening.

Conversely, when a man is confronted with something that is "supposed to" elicit desire, he is expected to perform that desire on the spot, whether it's "there" or not. Older men frequently are required to perform (like circus animals?) when that's not really where their bodies (or minds) are at. Women can be totally not into it, but agree to have sex because she wants to build the relationship/conceive children, whatever. Men may have a lot of difficulty having sex that they are totally not into (not always, men can be raped because bodies are unpredictable, but the point stands).

This dynamic makes men fundamentally powerless in relation to their own desires, and gives insecure men a reason to attempt to re-balance the scales. Of course, none of this is women's fault, but since they are the ones blamed for male desire whether it exists or not, they become the object of the power restructuring. For example, a man feels desire at an inappropriate time/place toward a stranger. He is embarrassed, and angry at the woman for "making him feel" that way. He has a choice - try to hide it, or embrace it. Trying to hide it feels weak and frustrating - it also feels dishonest - why shouldn't he feel desire. But it can be noticed, and he can be humiliated. Acting on that desire is probably assault but (the insecure, power-hungry male reasons), "It's her fault for dressing that way, making me feel that way" so he might as well go toward feeling strong and powerful - he is owning that vitality and desire, embracing that part of him gives him a way to not feel weak and ashamed. And it just so happens to force his will on some non-consenting person (which, I repeat, is assault/voyeurism, whatever). Maybe he starts to fetishize the mixed feelings of shame and power and seek out non-consenting people to desire, all the while blaming them for the way they make him feel. Now he is a predator.

We would do better just to relax a little bit about male desire. Quit expecting them to perform, and quit drawing conclusions from the occasional wayward erection (especially from young guys). Take less of an "oh my god, what a perv!" attitude, and more of a "no worries, this stuff happens sometimes, let me give you some space to figure out what's next." Unfortunately, the more that women are attacked, the more concern they legitimately have about public displays of male desire. It gets scarier, and creates a vicious circle.

I think that covers a number of the power dynamics you were looking at.

Porn, I think is fine (ethical, legal, as you say), I just wish that the majority of it contained pictures of normal women, instead of surgically enhanced/airbrushed women. It would be good to give guys inclined in that direction a realistic idea of what things are actually about down there.

Cheating is all about the rules of the game. Guys should be allowed to be honest about the type of relationship that would work best for them. If most guys would want an open relationship for them and a closed relationship for their partner, then they may have to grapple with that double standard and choose which is more important to them. If their partner wants monogamy and they want openness, they need to decide if their partner is worth the "price of admission" (Dan Savage phrase). They can't have that conversation if they are shamed for wanting strange. They need to be able to make the fully cognizant decision about what that is worth to them so that they can make commitments they can follow through on. Women (in general) need to grow up a little and stop making so much sexual desire conversation out of bounds.

SpaceWhiskey · 2016-05-31T18:59:42+00:00

I agree. Feminism achieved its goals and now it's eating itself and anybody who happens to be standing nearby. Gender equality is one thing, but it's silly to fight human nature. Affirmative consent is a great example of a solution in search of a problem.

Ekaj_B · 2016-05-31T20:35:25+00:00

Affirmative consent is a reinforcement of what feminists claim to be against - that evil "patriarchy". Expecting men to take responsibility for sex whilst claiming men and women are equal (e.g. should be shared responsibility). This is never more evident than drunken sex where feminists will claim a woman has been raped even if the man is drunk too.

Also you haven't mentioned things like "creep-shaming" and attacking men who approach women. One of the big issues here is that women are the ones with power, they don't have to approach to have sex and relationships. Men do! Any shaming that stops a man approaching a woman is going to hinder his life incredibly (and as I always say and sorry to keep repeating myself - As a shy man who can't approach women, I am very aware of how much it has set me back) Now, I know one of the common arguments about this is "well we only shame / disparage men who are creepy, who approach badly, etc." but this suggests to me, once again, a reinforcement of traditional male gender roles - Men are not allowed to make mistakes, not allowed to be weak, not allowed to be vulnerable and have to mythically perfect pick-up machines.

Also men will try to repress showing their feelings / emotions / whatever with women because we are aware of how much it repulses women. Women can not handle male weakness, look at how you attack low-status men, the nerds, gamers, socially awkward guys, men who have spent their whole lives getting emotionally beaten down, being ignored sexually but you still want to call them "privileged".

MagicGainbow · 2016-05-31T19:15:50+00:00

Laws against revenge porn

Good but at the same time this has nothing to do with hidden cams which I think in this day and age are unfortunately necessary until women stop using threats of accusations for leverage.

Affirmative consent

''there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood.''

Have tried it can confirm it kills the mood.

''That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission, that sooner or later her desire will just kick in and he should go for it.''

Once again a separate issue.

Cheating

Have seen arguments in favour for/against both sexes.

Boys will be boys

Because they are the very word boy conjures up images of brash energy, rough housing and male fun.

''This sort of conditioning sets girls up for a life of misery when they're told at a young age that when a boy gets rough with you and hurts you, you should take it as a compliment.''

I've seen the same notion expressed with regards to young girls.

''and I have seen that labeled as yet another example of boys being "feminized".''

Because they are being treated as defective girls.

''I take exception to this and I do not believe the only alternative to not shoving girls (or anyone) down into the dirt because you don't know how else to express yourself is some sort of "pussification", as the manosphere describes.''

Who said those are the only two options?

''These are the same guys who themselves reinforce negative masculine gender roles like "feelings are for faggots"

They may reinforce them but it's women that cause the situation to begin with.

hippydipster · 2016-05-31T19:26:33+00:00

The boys will be boys thing - emphasis on "BOYS". Boys have a lot to learn. In many ways, more than girls do. They are stronger, more aggressive naturally, more assertive naturally, less socially aware at the same age naturally (girls mature faster, as they say).

We've all been pushed around by those boys on the slower end of this learning curve. By those struggling more with issues. "Boys will be boys" is an acknowledgement that we're talking about a work in progress here, and that shaming tactics make poor educational tools. So, you can shame and punish, but you won't get the results you want.

Not sure what the alternative is that's fair to everyone. It's possible the optimal solution to growing up and learning isn't necessarily "fair". There are plenty of those on the "nerd" end who have the same complaint you're raising here.

There's also "girls will be girls" and all the secrets and whispering and comments about how people dress, etc. The two sexes are different. Hiding heads in the sand about that won't have good results.

tallwheel · 2016-06-01T11:51:36+00:00

Another good point I would add:

Forced dominance/submission dynamics: I've seen many Red Pillers claim that men are inherently sexually dominant while women submissive, that those are their "natural preferences" and should be enforced every time no matter whether an individual woman likes it or not - I've seen many sexual advice posts on Red Pill tell men to treat women very roughly during sex without first finding out if they actually like it and not caring about women's preferences - "Just start choking her, don't ask for permission, she'll love it, or if she won't, she's just brainwashed by feminists!". Women who want to be dominant in bed are "abnormality" and should be subdued immediately or else they will magically get repulsed by the man as soon as he submits. Likewise, men aren't allowed to be submissive in bed or (gasp - god forbid!) try thing like pegging because that's "going against nature" and will magically make women repulsed by them even if they claim to want this. "Women don't know what they actually want", etc.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T13:22:25+00:00

What if there are ten other article by women who are glad they married older men? One story does not indicate any sort of trend, just one person's story. Who knows, 5 years from now she might change her mind and realise that she was glad she dated older men. She obviously thought it was good enough to do twice. She wanted older men for comfort, she fought her parents to have her way. She got her way. She finished one relationship with an older man and then got into a relationship with an even older man. Now she wants to blame the men? Really?

FirionDarklight · 2016-05-31T19:50:54+00:00

Revenge Porn : Agreed. Though the question is why you need laws specific for that instance instead of using the generic laws for footage that you didn't know that was taken. Feel free to correct me on whatever the legal details are.
Affirmative Consent : Taken too far. Like here. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/435412/little-known-powerful-american-law-institute . Also most people don't fuck like autists and communication during sex consists of verbal but mostly non-verbal cues(aka body language and what not).
Cheating : This could be easily amended if you made fidelity a really bad thing to do that the other person could use favorably in divorce. I don't know the family law so I can't answer. I have however, seen one man in particular who while cheating was also dead set on not letting his kids grow in a divorced household like he did. I don't know what his wife did to be frank. It was a weird dynamic.
"Boys will be boys" : Many boys like to play rough. Murikans decided that the best course was to medicate them and treat them as defective girls. They should instead shut up, sit down, take their meds and be quiet. Thinking that "boys will be boys" is somehow brainwashing women into liking assholes later is a poor rationale. For the whole feelings things, you somehow have mixed 2 different things together. The whole "boys will be boys" which is a part of supposed masculinity with the supposed masculinity as a whole. There are a lot of ways to deal with your "feels" and what not without coming off as a bitch. Currently, murican society(which i hate anyways) just doesn't help you do that. Most boys would be happy if they were off doing stuff with their pals(like sports or whatever) instead of sitting down and getting treated like robots in classes with teachers that hate them. Also, most of the time it isn't the "boys will be boys" mentality that makes people shut off. It is the complete lack of sympathy from anyone, leftists or rightists or feminists(male tears anyone?) or whatever. At some point, you just put up and shut up. And you either get the shit beaten of you for 6 years till you have figured your shit out and you are no longer a mess or i guess take anti depressants and then off yourself at 30 years old. Whatever works.

PS. If your daughter can't play rough with boys then she shouldn't play with them. Also, report them to the teacher. Then, he will makes sure to bring that shitlord in line.(sorry, i am too sarcastic in this particular part.)

Age of Consent laws: Around here 16 is legal so i can't comment on that. If anything even 14 years can be sexually predatory given enough encouragement. A whole different world. But the whole appeal of dating younger girls is mostly that most men don't want to date opinionated wrenches. Younger girls are more carefree and fun most of the times. Having a partner that adores you instead of nagging you is like one of the best things ever. Also, i think that you are doing younger women a disservice by denying them their agency in their choice of an older partner. They got an older boyfriend. They didn't slave sell themselves and wrote off their future. It is quite arrogant to assume that you know what is best for them and what they should want.

Let's see. We live in a sexually liberated west. This means that people are going to follow market trends. So even if you try to shame people for being douchebags, if being a douchebag gets you what you want then people are going to do just that. You can cry and wail and shame, people will just flick you a finger and move on. Again, i think getting boys in touch with their "soft" side in the way it is done, is just stupid. I prefer the stoic(which if you be so kind don't call emotionless)(i hate it when people do that) aka working towards what you can do even when things are shitty. Sometimes that means coming up with a solution, others times it means getting drunk with friends and letting it all out. But, being an over-expressive person that is touchy feely all the time just annoys the shit out of me. I assume that this wasn't the kind of expression you were going for but this is what i see being pushed/implied(aka "feminization"). I don't thing that rowdy little boys hurt women. I believe that all legal(and consenting duh) porn is ok. Ethics don't and shouldn't enter into it. People getting shamed for masturbation is a new one to me. The local church did it. Didn't know that the murican left had also picked up on it. That's all i have to say on the whole topic. Hopefully, my text isn't too spaghetti in its points.

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-05-31T19:55:44+00:00

Affirmative consent: Every time this comes up, there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood. That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission,

See, there's my issue. "Have your partner's consent" isn't the issue. The toxic part of your position is that every sexual encounter without a signed and notarized contract is presumed rape on the part of the man.

BWbB: This isn't really anything to do with sexuality. That said, It's good for boys to engage in a certain amount of roughhousing and 'aggressive' play. If you object to girls being a part of that, maybe we should go back to having gender segregation in schooling. Or maybe skinned knees and dirtied hair is actually part of a healthy childhood.

Age of consent laws: I actually don't so much have a problem with age of consent laws per se. I think it's a bit silly that a 22 year old dating a 17 year old is called a rapist but a 29 year old dating that same 22 year old is hardly noticed, but given how stupid and litigious our society is about sex, those laws are at least understandable, if not intelligent or really workable.

What I object to is the shaming of men for finding girls/women sexually attractive when those same girls/women are clearly sexualizing themselves for the sake of notoriety/profit.

Denswend · 2016-05-31T19:42:55+00:00

I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

It's not. It's not healthy that men have to tape their encounters to stop false rape allegations which are possible and can destroy a man's life. There was a case about a Swedish girl crying rape, then a boy showing video proof. He was sentenced because he "slandered".

That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission, that sooner or later her desire will just kick in and he should go for it. I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

It's probably because you yourself are not healthy or indoctrinated. I do not mean this as an insult. Sexuality is what it is, and nothing can change it.

I have seen it argued that while it is reprehensible for a woman to be unfaithful, it is not only natural but expected for men to stray.

Cheating is cheating and it's disgusting. But female cheating is worse than male cheating, when a man cheats it's likely that he just wants to empty balls and has no emotional investments. Again, this is made on assumptions of sexual dimorphism in humans.

Then we wonder why these girls are attracted to badboys and "asshole" types.

Nurture hardly plays a role, and women's sexual fascination with badboys and assholes predates this kind of sentiment found only in non-gender segregated kindergartens.

But consider the opposite. Women are often told to overreact to men slapping them - and men are often taught that you should never, even under penalty of extreme damage, hit a women. Women are taught that they can be as violent as they want and any defensive violence against them is literally Hitler. I do not consider this healthy for men, women, and civilization in general.

When in fact there has been quite of bit of study done on the subject, and many experts agree that the sort of power imbalance that occurs during a teenager/adult relationship can leave lasting damage on the younger party such as depression, issues with self-esteem, ect.

The entire thing is tainted by feminist influences which is a thinly veiled attempt to distribute power from men to women. It's kinda like when they openly push "alpha fucks beta bux" strategy under the guise that "she changed". She is rationalizing her behaviour and painting herself as a victim. I do not consider this healthy.

I do not however believe that behavior that hurts women is harmless/healthy, as everything I listed above does.

I disagree completely. Something being healthy or not healthy does not hinge on how it hurts women. That kind of behaviour is gynocentric and utterly pointless. Suppose a woman locks you in a room and starts hitting you with a baseball bat. Is it healthy for you to bend over because your defense "might hurt" women?

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T05:24:37+00:00

Laws against revenge porn

Should not exist. Men and women have every right to film anyone that steps onto their property. I'm pretty tired of women wanting everyone else to look out for and take the fall for their own shitty decisions.

Affirmative consent

Is a red herring. Men know how to not rape. All this does is put all the burden of consent on men. It assumes guilt unless proven innocence. And it's insulting.

Cheating

Apparently, you live under a rock, because I seem to see about five new posts a week by women on the internet (no, not in r/relationships) asking how to cover up some affair or other. Though honestly, this is just a strawman. I have no idea where you got the impression that infidelity is socially acceptable.

Boys will be boys

Ah, my favorite expression. Once used to describe the brash recklessness of youth, things like hitting baseballs through windows, it's now repurposed into an expression meant to shame, punish, and vilify young boys.

Never mind that, by five years of age, boys are now expected to be emotionally stable and independent rocks, lest their teachers take out their frustration on them by drugging them or letting their parents know how badly behaved they are. Never mind that, by five years of age, a boy is expected to be adept in martial arts and blood sport, lest he be beaten by his older peers in a public display of dominance. "Boys will be boys" was never used to excuse inappropriate displays of sexuality. It was used to tell people that boys already have it hard enough without being doped, manipulated, and abused by a society that hates them.

When you kick and starve a dog long enough, sometimes he bites back.

SpaceWhiskey · 2016-05-31T19:23:41+00:00

Revenge porn - You need to be able to record your sexual encounters if you want to protect yourself in an area where affirmative consent is the standard because it all depends on her word. Distributing photos of someone else nude without their permission being illegal seems reasonable and has nothing to do with gender.

Affirmative consent - Sounds great in theory, works horribly in practice and is directly at odds with the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. Has nothing to do with gender except nobody gives a shit about male rape victims.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T12:03:45+00:00

revenge porn

Guys who do this are knobheads who make it harder for other blokes to get nudes in the future, fuck 'em.

Affirmative consent

No I shouldn't have to make the woman literally say "yes I consent to a sexual act" to fuck her, social cues don't work like that. I can read body language, tone of voice, and context just fine, as can most non-autistic people.

Cheating

Shitty when anyone does it.

"Boys will be boys"

I've never seen this used in the way feminists mention it. I've only seen it used when boys are doing stupid risk takey stuff when playing as kids.

Age of consent laws

If she's at the age of consent she's fair game. She is old enough to make her own decisions, and the law agrees she is, let her. She's a human with agency.

If she regrets it later, well welcome to the real world where people regret shit all the time.

Chicken_Nuggers_666 · 2016-06-01T18:11:24+00:00

Isn't the boys will be boys things used to justify porn and why do you need to ask to grope someone's tits if you're already making out and getting sexual unless she says she's not ready before hand or says stop.

Wowbaggerrr · 2016-05-31T19:14:00+00:00

I agree that all of these, with the exception of Affirmative Consent are men pining for the Good Old Days. Claiming that cheating, or hurting another person or dating a child are okay is ridiculous. That's (thankfully) not the world we live in anymore, time to get with the times.

The one that's tricky is Affirmative Consent. I've said before that if I was a guy I'd be terrified every time I sleep with a new woman. I agree that breaking the mood to ask "Are you sure this is okay?" is a bummer. And I'd be slightly turned off if guys did that to me. Obviously if a woman says no, then you stop. But if she hasn't explicitly said yes, do you have to kill the moment and break the mood?

super-commenting · 2016-05-31T19:33:37+00:00

Affirmative consent

What does affirmative consent even mean? Do I have to ask the girl I'm on a date with before I kiss her or can I just see that she's having fun and go for it? What if I've already kissed her before? Do I have to ask each time? What about when we're back in my bed making out, do I have to stop and ask before I touch her breasts? Etc...

The extreme position of affirmative consent would be that you need to get explicit verbal permission before any escalation of sexual contact. I think that that is clearly an absurd idea. Literally everyone who isn't an incel would be guilty of sexual assault if we used that standard.

Now I don't think this extreme version is what most people who advocate for affirmative consent actually want but it is what most people who argue against affirmative consent are arguing against.

Age of consent laws

I agree that adults having sex with much younger teenagers is often unhealthy but I object to calling it rape. A 15 year old who enthusiastically agrees to have sex with a 21 year old is not the victim of the same crime as a 15 year old who is violently forced against their will to have sex with that 21 year old.

[deleted] · 2016-05-31T19:11:46+00:00

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darkmoon09 · 2016-06-01T21:49:56+00:00

Laws against revenge porn: In the past two days, there have been two different threads in TwoX in which hidden cameras were discovered. As usual, before the mods moved in, many of the initial comments supported the practice, telling the OPs that it wasn't a big deal. The entire debacle that was "The Fappening". The shutting down of various creepshot subs. The argument is that voyeurism has been around since the dawn of time, therefore it's somehow worse to take away a Peeping Tom's ability to peep than it is for an innocent person to be peeped on and have their privacy violated. I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

I honestly would not like it if someone did this to me so I wouldn't do it them no matter how bad things may have ended up.

Affirmative consent: Every time this comes up, there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood. That it is natural for men to ravage women without their permission, that sooner or later her desire will just kick in and he should go for it. I do not consider this behavior to be healthy.

Never understood what's so complicated about this: if a woman is enthusiastically on her knees unbuckling my pants after dropping her own panties is it really necessary to get "Affirmative consent"? I honestly think a lot that has to do with this issue is people being irresponsible shitheads and not owing up to decisions...girl regrets having consensual sex because she was unsure if herself but too timid to say no? that's on her, if she doesn't have the maturity to handle situations that she puts herself in then she shouldn't be taking off her cloths. Period.

"Boys will be boys":

I can only speak based on my own experience but even though I'm not a parent, watching my nephew grow I'm pretty certain that a lot of this has to do with shitty parenting, my nephew is certainty not the one to be pushing anybody around and I wouldn't make it clear to my own hypothetical son that such behavior is unacceptable. If he really feels he needs to unleash energy sign him up for wrestling/MMA or a sports team but assaulting people is bully behavior that wouldn't fly with me. Also, it's unfortunate girls are told that. Make no mistake it makes a lot of guys unhappy as well, all the frustrated genuine "nice" men who see the jocks and gangbangers getting all the tail then watch as women get pumped n dumped then complain that all men are shitty and wonder where all the gone men are...

Cheating: I have seen it argued that while it is reprehensible for a woman to be unfaithful, it is not only natural but expected for men to stray. That it is completely reasonable to go behind a spouse's back for sex without their knowledge or consent for whatever arbitrary reason. Fidelity aside, I think this is incredibly inconsiderate to potentially expose your partner to disease. I do not consider this to be healthy.

The people who defend this will often cite their reasoning going back to caveman days that since it's harder for men to have sex, male promiscuity has always been given the stud pass. It wasn't unusual for the strongest, baddest alpha cavemen to have harems of women, it wasn't unusual for kings, dukes, and nobles to have a mistress or two on the side along with their actual wives.

Age of consent laws

Age of consent is 16 in some countries but that aside, I don't doubt the power imbalance happens but at the end of the day if it's all within legal age then that's that. Personally I have no interest in girls that young.

So. Agree, disagree? Men, do you feel these tenants of male sexuality are indeed healthy and indeed are being taken away? Women, how do you feel about the things I described? I do feel that many aspects of healthy male sexuality are being attacked, but it's never what I see MRA types defending. I believe masturbation is healthy and that boys shouldn't be shamed for it. I believe porn, to a degree (legal, ethical porn), is healthy and that men shouldn't be shamed for looking at it. I believe men shouldn't be shamed for having emotions, being vulnerable, crying, hurting, needing help. I do not however believe that behavior that hurts women is harmless/healthy, as everything I listed above does.

The things you've listed hear aren't exactly the things I imagine when I hear of attacks on healthy male sexuality, when I think of that, I imagine the shamming of boys for even looking at girls and wanting to have sex with them. I guess a good example of this could be how older men are shammed for desiring younger women, how young men have it relentlessly shoved down their throats that they're all potential rapist and again that it's wring to want ti do anything sexual with girls, what's also annoying is how women botch about being approached by "creeps" in places like bars and clubs while wearing sexy clothing--women act stupid and say things like "I just like to dance and look good!" when we know damn well they love the (right) attention otherwise they wouldn't be at the dance club. Men are mostly stimulated visually so us looking at sexy women is not objectifying them.

civilsaint · 2016-06-02T01:46:21+00:00

Affirmative consent: Every time this comes up, there seems to be a narrative that it is impossible to gain enthusiastic consent without sacrificing The Mood.

Since Affirmative Consent grinds my gears, I'll take aim at this.

Your portrayal of the opposition to affirmative consent is not the approach that only affects men. I know women who A) Absolutely despise talking in bed, this includes to verbally ask for permission, and B) prefer to 'let the mood dictate what happens' (so to say).

I would guess that there are equal numbers of men and women who find the idea of stopping to get the properly clearances before playing finger hockey or whatever to be a turn off. I can't imagine anyone in an LTR who would keep that charade up.

Where affirmative consent does crash into male sexuality is in a man's fear of engaging in sex with a potential false accuser. Decorate it all you want, there is no way for a man to completely protect himself from a false accusation through affirmative consent. Without bogging the conversation down with examples, a man has to take action, included SECRETLY RECORDING HIS SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS, in order to protect himself. These secret recordings have been used to clear false accusations. Hidden bedside camera sales are trending online. Many men probably just bypass what could've been a fun night of romping due to fear of this.

As for cheating, I don't know anyone who thinks its cool when a guy cheats. I do know some girls who see a girl cheating as a sign of 'GRRRL POWER', but I personally find all of these instances of cheating disgusting.

Today, there is no reason to cheat. Just have an open relationship. It's not 1953. The Cleavers aren't going to get all judgy on you.

Revenge porn should be illegal. Though with all those bedside cameras... You see how evil affirmative consent is?

[deleted] · 2016-06-02T08:13:22+00:00

[permanently deleted]

FatPowerlifter · 2016-06-02T15:51:10+00:00

Why should I ask for permission every time I want to fuck my girlfriend? "Excuse me dear can I initiate fondling?" "To ensure this is not rape, can you clarify if it is permissible to begin coitus?"

No wonder TBP is filled with 40 year old virgins, that's not how anyone has sex. You have sex by initiating and then seeing the girl's response instead of having to ask for "permission".

SykeStar · 2016-06-04T08:12:29+00:00

I know I'm late to the party but I don't think

Age of consent laws:

Is a fair characterization of MRA's as a whole. Some may have different beliefs but if you drop over to /r/mensrights you will see they are pretty concerned the the recent teacher have sex with her student thing, and our societies reluctance to call it what it is, rape.

[deleted] · 2016-05-31T20:27:31+00:00

[permanently deleted]

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[deleted] · 2016-05-31T21:47:49+00:00

Wow, so well put.

Yes, around here (via the red pill) it seems that 'healthy male sexuality' means that whatever men want sexually, they should be able to express it and have it - no matter who it hurts.

This has been true in history - the men in power were able to have whatever they wanted sexually. Including little boys and girls, animals, giving people VD, raping etc.

Healthy male sexuality means all that men enjoy sexually, that doesn't harm other people.

wazzup987 · 2016-06-01T05:37:42+00:00

You mean this AC naw you can keep you retarded degeneracy.

AC is because has a lot fucking problems. Sorry your sexual partner isn't mind reader, speak up, be verbal and communicate is two way street. AC makes it a one way street. so yeah fuck that grow up and be an agent. if you cant communicate your mental state durign the sexual act you are mature enough to handle sex, go back to dildo if you can't handle communication ladies, specifically degenerate 3 rd wave feminists. it called agency stop pretending you have and acting like rp stereotypical AWALT (speaking about advocates of AC most women [18+] are mature enough for sex).

Side bad:

AoC laws really aren't mra issues aside from getting kiddy fucking pedo female teachers out of our schools, because apparent no aspect female sexuality is seen as toxic. About the closest i have seen to an taking issue with it is that some times the younger person is the sexually aggressive one (including about lying about age [wait under AC would that the younger party the rapist because the presume older would not have consent if they had known that prior to intercourse]) and that perhaps that should be taken into account.

a4b · 2016-06-02T12:40:32+00:00

When in fact there has been quite of bit of study done on the subject, and many experts agree that the sort of power imbalance that occurs during a teenager/adult relationship can leave lasting damage on the younger party such as depression, issues with self-esteem, ect.

Most people regret their earlier encounters, sexual or otherwise, with partners older or younger. That alone is no justification to demonise men who are into younger and more attractive women.

Title	Let's talk about "Healthy Male Sexuality"
Author	SpaceWhiskey
Upvotes	19
Comments	384
Date	May 31, 2016 6:53 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4lwugg/lets_talk_about_healthy_male_sexuality/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/lets-talk-about-healthy-male-sexuality.274485 https://theredarchive.com/post/274485

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