I feel more comfortable in MensRights than in /r/women or /r/TwoXChromosomes

slb235235 · 2012-04-19T02:40:46+00:00

I'm a woman, a Libertarian, and I'm sick of all the ignorant, whiny women in those subreddits. Every day, there is at least one article whining...

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Intersectionality.

The sum total of his privilege is significantly less than what "internet feminists" claim.

Privilege can't actually be quantified (given that it's intentionally defined in an incredibly nebulous way), but I'm happy to say that a male war victim is less privileged than a well-off woman.

Do you disagree that this is where people come to talk about how they are discriminated against? How do you distinguish that from a "victim mindset" (beyond, of course, your degree of personal identification)?

A "victim mindset" is when you warp every situation so it can be interpreted in a way that makes you a victim. If somebody regularly asserts they are discriminated against when they're just unlucky, then they have a victim mindset. If they regularly assert they're discriminated against because they are discriminated against, then they do not.

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You are bordering on a straw man fallacy if you are suggesting that I think economic policies are perfect.

The difference is that I treat them separately. I do not see economic freedom as a subset of personal freedom. But that does not mean I don't believe in some economic freedoms - I simply see that there are separate economic responsibilities that need to be adhered to than there are personal responsibilities.

Personal responsibilities are related to how a person interacts with others, and their rights are related to how others interact with them.

Economic responsibilities are related to taxes, environmental impact, fair advertising. Economic freedoms are related to freedom to do business, freedom to not pay taxes on costs, etc.

These are separate issues, and should be treated separately. An individual can have individual freedoms/responsibilities AND can have economic freedoms/responsibilities. However, a corporation should only have economic freedoms/responsibilities because they exist only as an economic entity.

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Libertarianism doesn't always mean "anti-government involvement". In political analysis, I am considered a libertarian because I believe strongly in individual freedoms and transparency in government. But I am not opposed to government regulation, so long as that regulation doesn't interfere with individual rights. I do not view companies as individuals, and therefore economic regulation is perfectly fine to me, for example.

You would not be recognized as libertarian by libertarian thinkers or legal theorists. Government regulation naturally impacts individuals; it could hardly do otherwise, both because government regulations generally apply to individuals as well -- it's not just corporations forbidden to build in wetlands-- and because it impacts property rights. Property rights are individual rights. If a government regulation reduces the value of your shares in a corporation by 90% overnight, I bet you'd feel pretty damn interfered with.

I'm not a libertarian, because I recognize the exist of market failures (and yay stimulus, and who cares about inflation, and the Austrian school is out of their minds), but I read their blogs, and come on. It means something besides "no government intrusion in the bedroom." You can't radically redefine "libertarian" away from its core principles, and respect for economic property rights is one of those. These words mean things.

A libertarian can accept the necessity for government intervention in some markets (like healthcare, famously), but those are exceptions, not a general principle of being fine with government regulation.

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Like I said, I read the blogs of a number of prominent libertarians. I know what it is. The wiki is consistent with what I wrote and inconsistent with total okayness with government economic regulation, much less on the basis of an arbitrary focus on corporate form. Let's take the overview section:

Consequentialist libertarians argue that a free market and strong private property rights bring about beneficial consequences, such as wealth creation or efficiency

Deontological libertarians argue that there are moral rules one ought not violate regardless of the consequences. Deontological libertarians describe aggression and coercion as examples.

Propertarian libertarian philosophies define liberty as non-aggression, or the state in which no person or group aggresses against any other person or group, where aggression is defined as the violation of private property.[18] This philosophy, implicitly, recognizes as the sole source of legitimate authority private

Non-propertarian libertarian philosophies hold that liberty is the absence of any form [of] authority and argue that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite

EDIT: And by the way, volokh.com is great, speaking of my favorite mostly-but-not-entirely libertarian blawg.

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I agree. I acted hastefully in my frustration. Throughout my whole life, I have had mostly guy friends. Not all but mostly. My best friend 2nd grade-12th grade was a guy. In college, my best friend and colleague through our civil engineering majors was a guy, and he was even my man of honor at my wedding. My 2nd-12th grade friend was a bridesman, and I had one bridesmaid.

I have always felt more comfortable with the company of men, and I believe I am upset with the stereotypical woman. Being a woman, I find it extremely difficult at times. There are times where the logical side of my brain is at war with the emotional side, and I curse my female characteristics that I cannot avoid.

However, I do love being a woman. I wear make-up, put on pretty, pretty dresses, and I love having the perfect hair-do.

Special snowflake or not, I'm content with the way the dice rolled for me.

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Yeah, I pointed that out too, and they just shit stormed on me "ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE SOME DEADBEAT DADS LEAVE THOSE POOR WOMEN!? MAKE THEM TAKE RESPONSIBILITY! AND IT IS HER BODY HER CHOICE!"

Me: "Umm, then why isn't it his body his choice?"

them:"WHAT? WHY DO YOU MEN KEEP THINKING LIKE THAT. WOMEN HAVE IT MUCH WORSE, AND YOU CAN'T TELL HER WHAT TO DO! SHE SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE, AND THE MAN SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE DID! HE HAD SEX SO HE HAS TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY!" etc.

That seems to be the biggest disconnect, and it happens here and in the feminist areas. If someone acts like an asshole it's because they're an asshole not because they're a man or a woman.

And this exactly. On both subreddits (I don't go on MR much anymore, and barely go on TwoX, but from when I did used to occasionally go on them) people need to stop generalizing a single thing someone of that sex does with the entire sex. People are assholes, not women or men.

Also, just as a joke, there's a /r/TwoXcirclejerk mock subreddit, and I found it really funny. The picture on the right made me laugh really hard. I know gamer girls aren't all actually like that, but it is just really funny.

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Reverse the genders and it's exactly what the mods of TwoX would say-- men are welcome in TwoX, as long as they respect that it is a subreddit predominantly for and by women.

That's completely fine, it can be for women 100%. However, by "adhere to their views" I meant more of that they are completely welcome to voice their opinion, etc, but things don't have to be structured specifically for them. Like you can come into anywhere and say "No, you're wrong." or something similar, but the people there don't have to agree. Basically you can do what you want, but don't expect other people to change their place to accomodate for you. With the TwoX example, you can go in there and voice your opinion, and say how what they posted was wrong, but you can't go saying "No, you shouldn't allow any more posts about bra sizes as it is irrelevant, turn everything blue, and make more posts about video games and sports."

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This shouldn't affect your stance on how promiscuous men and women should be. If you're not setting the bar at the same level, as a Libertarian and believing that the freedom of the individual is the most important thing, I would call you a sexist. I also personally don't think there should be a bar, but there you go, difference in moral opinion I guess.

You seem to want to "fix" the fact that 80% of women sleep with 40% of men (I assume for purely noble idealistic reasons and no self interest), surely to do this you should be restricting the men to one woman each, not restricting the women?

Also I'd be willing to wager there's a reason that these men get more women than others, be it evolutionary psychology / sex appeal / social stability / knowing how to communicate with women / generally being nicer people / all of the above.

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Never said that. [...]

What is your point then, other than a Christian-morals-based, traditionalist view and a blatant disregard for other people's individual freedoms?

So when feminists shame men for not supporting their cause unequivocally, or being "misogynist", are they infringing on anyone rights? Do you even realize how ludicrous it is to think shaming is a human right infringement.

How is that even remotely related? One thing is disagreeing with an opinion, the other thing is making people feel bad for their personal life choices that don't affect anyone negatively.

Also, look at it this way: False rape accusations are a major problem in part because some girls are so ashamed of their promiscuity that they'd rather file charges than admit consent. Solution: Get rid of the slut shaming nonsense, just let them grow up and experiment (which is a natural process) and enjoy a decrease of hypocrisy in general.

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Would a neutral study help you decide?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/the-gender-pay-gap-persists-especially-for-the-rich/

Shows approximate pay equality for many types of jobs (but conveniently leaves out what kinds of jobs) - some jobs have better pay for women, some better for men. Certainly nowhere near the 77c/$.

That is until you start getting into the high paying jobs. In those regions, there may very well be a larger pay gap. But that again doesn't mean it is as a result of discrimination. Note that they are showing yearly incomes and do not account for hours worked. High paying jobs also have high demands for things like overtime, which again has been shown to be common for men but uncommon for women.

Here is a quote from the article:

In other words, for most careers the company studied, PayScale found that the pay gap is largely the result of outside factors. Within a specific job, before controlling for outside factors the typical female worker earns pay that is only 90 percent of the typical male worker’s pay; after controlling for these variables, she earns 94 percent of the typical male worker’s pay. For jobs paying below $100,000, the gap narrows further.

The problem, of course, is that that is all self-reported income, and there really is no way to know whether "same work" was actually being done. There is also the issue of men being more aggressive about raises and starting salaries than women, which has been brought up in the past.

The final point I want to make is that it doesn't really matter if there is a large or small pay gap. The only thing that matters is why there is a pay gap, if there is one. If it is due to overt discrimination, then it is a society wide problem that needs to be dealt with. If it is due to choices that are made by individuals, then there is no reason to harass men repeatedly to make them think they are somehow at fault for decisions that are completely out of their control.

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The problem, as you've pointed out, is the nature of the evidence. We're still using unfalsifiable evidence. In this case, reported earnings.

If one gender is more likely to cheat on their taxes, then that's enough to skew each and every one of these studies.

Alas, the best we can do is keep adding metrics, and even that falls short because the people running the studies are subject to confirmation bias. Not because they want women to earn less, but because the people cutting the checks are expecting certain results, and those results must adhere to the current poor-women rhetoric/dogma.

The Obama administration will not be responsible for funding a BLS led study that determines women make the same, or more, than men. All other facts are secondary characteristics, in my opinion, because that larger truth is prohibiting the smaller ones from being exposed.

[–]The_Patriarchy 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

One thing you need to keep in mind for most studies/etc. is the term "full-time, year-round worker". Many think this accounts for hours worked, but it doesn't. They group together anyone working 35+ hours a week, 50+ weeks a year (including paid time-off).

Say you had two workers: John and Paul. John worked 50 weeks a year, 35 hours a week, at a rate of $10 per hour. Paul put in for as much overtime as he could and worked 52 weeks a year, 60 hours a week, but also at a rate of $10 per hour. Both are earning the same hourly rate and — for the sake of argument — doing the same work while on the clock…yet John will only earn $17,500 a year, while Paul will earn $31,200 (and this isn’t even factoring in mandatory overtime pay, raises for being more committed, etc.). John would have earned only 56% of what Paul earned…there would be a wage-gap of 44%, yet there’s no discrimination here.

Some studies and white papers (such as the recent report by the AAUW), use this metric and claim they've controlled for hours worked...but they haven't and this is misleading (perhaps intentionally). Men work more hours than women so if you don't account for hours worked, there will always be a wage gap (unless women are paid more for less work).

[–]hardwarequestions 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I almost think that statistical results shouldn't be shown to people who don't understand statistics, just because it's so easy to mislead people with them.

Here's my understanding of the pay gap. It's something that is fully explained by a "decision gap" between men and women. Men tend to make decisions that lead to higher pay, while women tend to prioritize other things (such as safety, raising a family, having lower-paying but more fulfilling careers, etc).

When faced with a choice between $X/yr and having a fulfilling career helping children learn, men are more likely to choose the money. When faced with a choice between $Y/yr and having a career with a lower rate of death and injury on the job, men are more likely to choose the money.

If this discrepancy between the kind of choices men make and the kind of choices women make is a problem, then it needs to be addressed by helping those who make bad choices make better choices. Not by changing the consequences of these choices in a gender-specific fashion to the sole advantage of women.

In short, the pay gap doesn't mean that people get paid better simply by having male genitalia. It means that people with male genitalia tend to make the decisions that lead to higher pay, at the expense of other life goals (such as raising a family or not dying). I expect that the same kind of statistical comparisons that show a wage gap would also show things like a workplace death and injury gap that favors women.

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I don't remember the title of this particular talk by Warren Farrell, but at the end someone asked a question like "do you think dads are pressured to never be stay-at-home dads and that's why women might feel more pressured to not make the choice of working full time?" and he responded by explaining that he always asks something like this on his radio show. Every time he does for every woman who calls in he gets at least 10 men saying they would love to be the stay-at-home dad for a woman like this, that they would be willing to cook and clean and do all the house chores.

That being said I don't think his radio show is a very unbiased sample of the population. But even so, I'm fairly convinced there exist more men willing to be stay-at-home dads than exist women who want them. The statistics seem obvious to me, though I don't know if any study ever looked into the question.

I personally would be willing to be a stay-at-home dad (though it is not my personal preference), but more often the decision comes down to who is going to make more money. I'm currently not married, but if I were married and was having a child, I would at least insist on having the conversation, as opposed to assuming which role each of us would take.

[–]MuFoxxa 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd be curious to know the opinion of people on here about it, too

I would switch places with my wife in a heart beat and she knows it. I would MUCH rather be taking care of my home and daughter everyday. The problem is that with our relative skillsets it makes more sense for me to be out working.

This is what pisses me off when someone says "she sacrificed her career blah bblah" ... ummm no, I'm sacrificing my LIFE SATISFACTION LEVEL and personal happiness to make life easier for my wife and my daughter.

Every day I go to a job I hate I'm sacrificing.

Every hour of on call work I'm sacrificing.

Every late shift or over time I need to do, I'm sacrificing.

Every hour of my life I spend siting in traffic going to/from this job, I'm sacrificing.

And I do it all because I LOVE my family. I want them to have as much freedom and happiness is this life as possible.

It's not like men are forcing women to stay home and lift rocks all day while we go to work to have sexy parties and cake.

Sorry I know that was a bit of a rant, but I had a feminist in real life pounce on me last night about this exact same thing claiming (without knowing anything more about us) that it

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Ok. Give me one second, hereeeee....

[–]spriggig 57 points 4 days ago The benefits aren't worth the effort required to keep a relationship stable, let alone happy. Women demand too much for what they bring to the table.

Really? Ouch.

[–]elwood78 9 points 4 days ago Agreed. Women these days seem ungrateful and spoiled.

[–]Bobsutan 3 points 4 days ago* I agree many, if not most, western women are dead weight these days. Sad that it's come to this. They just don't strive to improve themselves and expect men to do all the heavy lifting in getting into the relationship in the first place, and for keeping it all going.

[–]DeadBabyStew 25 points 3 days ago* I wish I was still under the illusion that women loved men for who we are, instead of what we can be fleeced of without reciprocation and by court order.

So we don't love men, we just want them to buy us shit...!?

[–]Alanna 11 points 4 hours ago Go away, misogynist troll.

^This guy that you responded to, who's comment was unfortunately deleted.

[–]Liverotto 2 points 1 month ago Man I wasn't a born a misogynist, I became one, I think that finding the right woman, marry, have children, is natural and it would be beautiful, but even if I find her, she will certainly change and take advantage of our Feminist Jim Crow laws for males.

Same guy:

[–]Liverotto -1 points 5 days ago Sooner or later even the dumbest of modern men will realize why the ancients kept women in a state of slavery.

More then 6. I have to run in a few minutes, or I'd get you more.

[–]tailcalled 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

First off, you prove absolutely nothing from a single comment, other than Liverotto where he explicitly self-identifies as a misogynist.

No links? Because several of those sound taken out of context. In the context of a discussion on, say, the risks and benefits of marriage for men today, the first two examples are simply noting the enormous legal benefits available to women in the family court system. These men, many of whom have been badly burned, are not inherently distrustful of women because they're women but because of the enormous power the system gives them. It creates an inherently inequal relationship, even if the woman in question never would or does actually use that power.

The guy I replied to was a troll, removed by the mods. He was heavily downvoted before his comment was removed, while my retort received 5 upvotes AFTER his comment was deleted.

Liverotto is a misogynist, I'll give you that one.

How do you count more than six? spriggig, elwood, bobsutan, deadbabystew, deleted troll, Liverotto-- that's six.

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Title	I feel more comfortable in MensRights than in /r/women or /r/TwoXChromosomes
Author	slb235235
Upvotes	154
Comments	253
Date	April 19, 2012 2:40 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/sh6gc/i_feel_more_comfortable_in_mensrights_than_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-feel-more-comfortable-in-mensrights-than-in.1023675 https://theredarchive.com/post/1023675

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