A man, suffering from liver failure, owed $30,000 in back child support. They took most of his paycheck (his children were adults). He couldn't feed himself; his lack of nutrition and illness were killing him. Their response: "We don't care; go ahead and die."

For all of 2009 my father and I lived in an abandoned house with no running water or any utilities because we both lost our jobs and had the house foreclosed on.

what country? I really don't believe you - especially with all the social services available to the poor in most 1st world nations, your story sounds fake.

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[–]Elesia 10 points11 points12 points 15 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

You know, as a single mom who just got off her ass and GOT A FUCKING JOB and didn't rely on my ex to give me money to support my son, I look around at this cottage industry of women asking the court to suck the cocks of their ex-husbands and find it gross.

Deciding to be a stay at home anything was STUPID. Sure, the child is half someone else's responsibility, but in the end, it's YOUR kid and YOUR life and if YOU choose to live in poverty, then suck it up princess, THAT WAS YOUR CHOICE.

There are SOOOOOO many programs out there to help women get on their feet and back into the career world! Scholarships, grants, loans, low-cost childcare, all you have to do is get off your butt! Don't wait for someone else to save you, save yourself! Show your child that the only person that can ever be your hero is YOU!

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[–]Elesia 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I must assume that you've only been through the family court system as a female, or the advocate of a female.

Try it as the partner/advocate of an abused male. It's like night and day. Suddenly, the fact that there are police reports about HER abusing HIM don't matter in the custody battle, that's "adult behavior" and not "parenting behavior".

The fact that she claimed false domestic abuse (which the women's shelter caught on to WHEN SHE DEFRAUDED THEM OF FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS) or that she claimed he falsely sexually abused their child (WHICH SHOWED INSTEAD THAT SHE WAS PURPOSELY CARRYING OUT MEDICAL NEGLECT TO WIN CUSTODY) just showed that she was "upset by the divorce."

Her medical treatment for addiction to psychoactive prescription drugs was inadmissible. Her mental illness (BPD), inadmissible. The fact that she did not know how to pay bills, cook, clean, launder, inadmissible.

What WAS admissible was my SO's paycheck, and now she gets 65% of it and while they have 50/50 custody, his daughter mostly lives with us because that woman doesn't want her there unless she's bored.

She calls ME mom now. And THANK GOD that I WORK and that I'm teaching her HOW TO BE A REAL WOMAN because that fleabag hasn't done one minute's worth of work since they cut the umbilical cord that didn't end with the words "Your Honor."

[–]eeeaarrgh 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This is a good example of abuse of the system. I have had a similar situation (false claim of domestic abuse) play out on my docket, and I had charges filed against the mother for filing a false police report - which is a felony. This woman discredited herself, abused the system, and wasted my time, as well as the time of the court, the police, and everyone else, all because she had an axe to grind with the father. What I thought was interesting about my case was that the father did NOT seek custody. All he was interested in doing was getting out of child support. So he didn't exactly elicit a lot of sympathy, either. I feel bad for the kids.

Your situation sounds ripe for some serious treatment. I don't know if you're trying to do this alone (pro se) or through a lawyer, but you should be using a double-pronged attack for custody and support against the mother. If you're only seeking to reduce support, none of the allegations you've mentioned (addiction, mental illness, fraud against the state, inability to maintain a household) are relevant because child support is SOLELY concerned with making sure income is allocated in a way that can benefit the child. It's a very artificial distinction, but that's the way it is.

You should be seeking to have an independent evaluation done of the current living arrangement by a professional. The court may also want to have a separate evaluation done to determine fitness of both mother and father (and this can cost money, but most jurisdictions will also offer evaluators who have a sliding scale payment regime), with custody and support to be assessed contingent on the findings and judicial determination, especially since the facts of the custody arrangement are different than the Order (which is all the court is seeing). And you should definitely be working through a lawyer. This is complicated stuff, and the presumptions (unfortunately, but it's the way it is) are generally against the non-custodial parent (usually the father), so you need to do what you can to even the playing field. What will probably happen is the second you file and serve her, she will start making stuff up and demanding the return of the child because you are now threatening her livelihood. With some good prep work done by an independent evaluator, you will be inoculated against this.

I am sorry you're going through this kind of nonsense. You seem to be the exception to the rule. Good luck.

[–]Elesia 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

We've retained a high-conflict lawyer and are trying to work through the process again, but even though we've had final orders for many years, the court has just recently returned us to mediation for the fifth time.

We're actually not trying to reduce support at all, because we fear that his ex will die with less cash in hand then she is used to spending. We're willing to continue all alimony and (privately) wouldn't even bitch about CS, because frankly, it's only money and I can always go out and make more that she can't take.

All we want is full physical and legal custody of the little one, because it hurts us to have her come home dirty, hungry, and reeking of "smoke," telling us stories about playing with her gerbils for company all weekend because the woman sleeps all day and surfs the net all night.

[–]eeeaarrgh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SignOmega -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

as a single mom who hasn't seen a dime of child support I find I have little sympathy for the plight of the noncustodial parent.

Nothing personal but that is hard to believe. If you have a child support judgment from a court, they money will be payed to you by the state.

At least in Florida child support is based on a mathematical formula that factors income and visitation. It can even be waived in cases of job kids if the parent makes a modicum of effort.

Visitation and effort are not a factor in most state child support calculations. Partial custody is of course, as for that time the financial burden changes.

It doesn't change the fact that there are a ton of deadbeat parents (both moms and dads) that abandon their responsibilities and leave an innocent child to suffer.

Why does the blame accumulate so lightly on the parent who chooses to have a child in an unsustainable situation? Sure, in divorce cases it makes sense, but less than 100% of child support cases are concomitant with divorce.

I will ensure my son has everything he needs, but his life would be that much better if his dad would commit to the same thing.

If you don't mind the question, how long were you married to him? I'd be interested to hear your story.

[–]aglet 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SignOmega 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]aglet 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

License suspension after one month of non-payment is facilitated by federal systems set up under the Dept. of Health & Human Services.

Right, but if any payment has been made-- even if it's not the full amount-- they can't proceed with the license suspension or anything else. So, say the letter is sent out: "Mr so-and-so, your child support payment is past due 30 days, we're going to suspend your license if we don't see a payment in the next 30 days"-- then he can send in a $25 check, and he's clear for 30 more days. CSE isn't as all-powerful as some of these stories would have you believe. Not to say there haven't been some dads who've gotten royally fucked over-- my husband is one of them, so I know it happens. But there are also plenty of loopholes for those who want to game the system.

[–]SignOmega 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]eeeaarrgh 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Money is never paid automatically to you by the state. Title IV (Social Security) provides the framework for child support enforcement services to be administered by each state. There are pro forma calculations to be adopted as presumptively adequate support orders, and the state can help, usually through a Department of Social Services but sometimes through the local District Attorney's office, to establish that order. Enforcement is only automatic if the child is drawing state aid (e.g. welfare). Otherwise, the custodial parent must apply for enforcement services, which will be provided through case management and the maintenance of wage garnishment orders. The problem with this system is that it is very slow and bureaucratized, and if a non-custodial parent wants to play games, or change jobs frequently, then there can be long periods of non-support.

Regarding visitation - this is completely outside the scope of enforcement of child support. Shared physical custody can be used as a factor in determining the proper support amount, but that is pretty much it. Of course, there may be exceptions if one of the parents is acting criminally.

I don't know that blame accumulates lightly on parents who "choose" to have children in unsustainable situations. It's impossible to gauge the different reasons why kids are born, or why people choose to (or fail to protect against) having children, and it isn't really fair to the kids to make the irresponsible custodial parent "pay" for the mistake of having them. Child rearing is difficult at best, and expensive, and forcing kids to live with poor choices made by their parents is best mitigated by forcing both of those parents to take some responsibility for them.

[–]FL_Sunshine 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SignOmega 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Money is never paid automatically to you by the state.

What you seem to be saying here is that a support order is never created out of thin air, it must be applied for. That's true, but not what I was talking about.

Otherwise, the custodial parent must apply for enforcement services, which will be provided through case management and the maintenance of wage garnishment orders.

Once the order's been established, the state will send the obligee that amount each month, whether the obligor makes their payments or not.

Child rearing is difficult at best, and expensive, and forcing kids to live with poor choices made by their parents is best mitigated by forcing both of those parents to take some responsibility for them.

I don't know that blame accumulates lightly on parents who "choose" to have children in unsustainable situations.

I don't know why you chose to use scare quotes. Women are not victims of their reproductive organs, they are in control of them.

Doesn't that create a situation whereby women who want to become mothers can scam men into 18-20 years of funding their projects? I'm not sure "best" is the term I'd use for that system.

[–]eeeaarrgh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Once the order's been established, the state will send the obligee that amount each month, whether the obligor makes their payments or not. That is only true if the obligee is drawing state aid (i.e. welfare), in which case the state is the recipient of the child support payments from the NCP (non-custodial parent). Otherwise, the amount of payment is a direct function of what gets pulled out of the obligor's paycheck via wage garnishment (less a small collection fee). There may be a pay period or two latency to this, but in private child support cases, the money is essentially exchanged between the parties, with the state acting as mediator of the transaction.

I don't know why you chose to use scare quotes. Women are not victims of their reproductive organs, they are in control of them. Doesn't that create a situation whereby women who want to become mothers can scam men into 18-20 years of funding their projects? I'm not sure "best" is the term I'd use for that system.

I like the term scare quotes. I've never heard it before. I'm not sure it applies here, though. I took exception to the term "choose" because a sufficient number of these kids are accidents that I don't think we can say they were really choices. Products of indiscretion / ignorance / recklessness maybe, but choice? I don't know about that. I'm not saying there is no accountability here due to indiscretion / ignorance / recklessness, but that accountability extends to mothers AND fathers.

Suggesting that women are solely responsible for reproduction because they are the ones giving birth (which is clearly where you are going) is kind of like saying it's an altar boy's fault for getting buggered b/c he is too damn sexy for the priest to resist.

[–]SignOmega 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FL_Sunshine 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The court can order child support until their blue in the face, but if the other parent refuses to work or chooses to work under the table then there is nothing that comes to the custodial parent. The court only acts as disbursement center, collecting funds (from paychecks) and resending it.

Florida has this concept of shared parental responsibilities and they factor in the number of overnight visits the child has with each parent, along with the among of income for each parent.

You assume that I chose to have a child in an unstable environment but that wasn't the case. At the time of his birth things were stable. However an oxycoton/xanax addiction changed the entire equation. His $1500/month pill addiction brought my family perilously close to the edge and it took every ounce of my strength to kick him out, pick up the pieces and move forward. He spiraled so badly that I'm quite content for him to be out of our lives right now.

Ideally he would have cleaned up and but his family first, but with addicts that just doesn't happen. I really don't like to use this is a rant and am only sharing because you asked. My problem with articles like this one is that it highlights and brings sympathy to a rare, unusual circumstance and encourages the ignorance and stereo types of single parents.

I am not some uneducated, trashy woman that is milking the system or expecting some man to send over a paycheck. I love my son dearly and take the responsibility of parenting very seriously. I work hard and have been paying off the debts incurred from my ex's drug addiction (even having to deal with his writing bad checks a year later off our closed checking account).

The thing is, my story is not unique...and it also isn't some pity plea or victim mentality. At the end of the day, my son is the one who suffers. The tens of thousands that my ex has never paid could have made a real difference in my son's quality of life. Even with a good job, $500/month child care and insurance premiums really add up. My only point is that my son would be best served if both parents stepped up to their responsibilities.

I was married for 4 years. His drug habit started 2 years in...rather naively it took me a while to really understand what had happened.

[–]SignOmega 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Elesia 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Here's my issue - if you have a child, and the other parent disappears (and I mean this for both genders) are you prepared to raise that child?

My mother was raised by my grandfather when my grandmother died young.

My ex-husband and I agreed to parent 50/50 and just spend our money on our own parenting time and call it even. If either of us, god forbid, died, no white knight will swoop in and magically give us cash, it will all be our responsibilities.

I have a cousin whose husband dropped dead at 32 without life insurance, leaving her with small children to raise. No child support there.

Why do people automatically assume someone else will pick up fifty percent of the bill, or even more? That's not life, and that's not guaranteed. Never agree to be a stay at home anything. Always have some kind of income to fall back on, and always know that at any moment, your precious child may be 100% your own responsibility.

[–]eeeaarrgh 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]eeeaarrgh 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Your response is vague and general, but failure to uphold the law sounds like an appealable abuse of discretion. You're entitled to findings of fact and conclusions of law in these determinations. I practiced in kangaroo courts for several years and know "black robe disease" very well, but laws are laws and if you persist in vindicating your rights, you prevail. The down side is that pro se litigants are at a serious disadvantage because they don't know how to articulate their claims in legally cognizable ways, and in the child support context (depending on whether enforcement is under a civil or criminal statutory regime), there is often NO automatic right of counsel.

It would be good to know some more specifics about what you've seen, and what injustice you've witnessed. Blanket assertions of courts being money-grubbing (which they certainly are) aren't that persuasive when most of the time court costs and filing costs are going to be paid regardless of the outcome of a motion. In terms of experience with the court system, I have tried literally thousands of child support cases, from establishing support orders through dismissing them for lack of paternity, and I have seen my own share of injustices. In the aggregate, however, I think the system is a better one for keeping people honest than letting deadbeats off the hook once they decide it's no longer convenient to hang around. Can it be improved? Absolutely - but that requires that we identify bad judges, bad laws, and stupid loopholes, and then do something about them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

In the aggregate, however, I think the system is a better one for keeping people honest than letting deadbeats off the hook once they decide it's no longer convenient to hang around.

Hmm, so we know your views on reproductive equality for men...

Absolutely - but that requires that we identify bad judges, bad laws, and stupid loopholes, and then do something about them.

Not really. All it involves is giving men the same legal rights as women, in EVERY way. Then, we need (and this goes for every single area of the judiciary/legal system) to start punishing misconduct mercilessly.

Blanket immunity, or indeed ANY special treatment should be demolished. Any lawyers or judges caught withholding evidence / perverting the course of justice should be tried in open court, with public proceedings. Furthermore, should they be found guilty disbarment should be MANDATORY, and basic....as in, that's where the punishment STARTS, not ends.

The legal system, the LAW, is corrupt in the extreme (hey, I watched a video where a cop EXECUTES a guy who is handcuffed, in front of a crowd on videotape...he got TWO YEARS!!!). Only a purge, and extremely tight regulation, has ANY hope of restoring the public's faith in justice.

And frankly, I don't think there's a whole lot of people IN the system who are aware of how badly the system is viewed. It's not "flawed", it's outright oppressive and corrupt.

[–]eeeaarrgh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think it's as bad as you suggest. Spend some time overseas, particularly in the third world, if you want to see endemic corruption. Most people try to do a good job, and many make mistakes. I agree that malfeasors need to be punished, and not simply scolded. We don't do enough of that here, with the result that there isn't a strong sense of consequence for wrongdoing. That's a serious problem.

What I have a problem with is how you can have such an extreme, binary approach to "law" and yet call for this weird notion of reproductive equality for men that appears to imply the ability to use mitigating circumstances in adjudicating things like child support (but maybe I'm reading too much into your statements). It's like supporting the death penalty and being pro-life - philosophically inconsistent.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's as bad as you suggest.

Of course you don't...you're PART of it...

I agree that malfeasors need to be punished, and not simply scolded. We don't do enough of that here, with the result that there isn't a strong sense of consequence for wrongdoing. That's a serious problem.

Actually, the public is DEEPLY cynical about the "Justice" system..look to the RCMP, the Supreme Court's Judicial Activists, the Divorce Industry, and pretty much anything surrounding 'sexual assault' if you want to blame someone..

I've actually stood in line at a coffee shop, for example, where a couple of RCMP officers walked in, and the people in line began a conversation about Police corruption, the way they murder innocent people (Vancouver airport - Stapler-weilding men are threatening...etc).

One of the cops had enough, and spoke up about how cops are just trying their best.

Want to know what the OLD LADY in line behind me said (I'll never forget this)?

She said: "If you didn't act like a bunch of crooks, and cover your behinds instead of doing the right thing, I would agree. But you do, and I'm ashamed as a Canadian to be associated with you." (or words to that effect). Then she turned and showed them her back.

The cops fell silent, and left without getting a coffee.

know what? They fucking deserved it....JUST because they're one of the group. Bunch of fucking thugs.

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I'm not sure what you mean. The part from the article that is paraphrased in the title of this post is:

There were other African American men I sat next to in the process of immigrating to Germany to escape. Some talked about how Child Support Enforcement took their homes on arrears, for children that weren't even theirs. But one of the worst cases I know of was a friend, owing $30,000 in back child support. Suffering from liver failure, they took most of his paycheck even though his children were adults. He couldn't feed himself, and his lack of nutrition, and his illness were killing him. He told them, "look you're killing me." Their response was, we don't care: go ahead and die. Go ahead and die. That's how it is.

The "they" and "them" that took his money and said go ahead and die in that case is the Child Support Enforcement Court, not the children.

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This implies that you are OK with rewarding someone for running away from their kids until they're at death's door, then pleading poverty to get a pass for their prior absence. I hope you don't really mean that. That $30K in arrears didn't pop up overnight, or without a whole lot of notice.

...or a corrupt judicial system, a set of child support tables designed by a guy who OWNS a support collection firm based on 'research' long since proven to be wildly inaccurate (at best), a 'child support' bureaucracy as Byzantine as it gets, summary default judements that can't be modified, expensive lawyers and fees required to get a TINY chance at a downward modification, all possible because we deny men the same basic human rights we extend to women...in the name of 'equality'.

Wow, you really ARE a heartless asshole, aren't you?

[–]eeeaarrgh 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't really give a shit what you call me. I'll just invoke Occam's Razor here - it is more rational to assume there are some exceptional deadbeats out there who find a receptive and gullible audience when they plead poverty after a lifetime of irresponsible living than it is to believe there is an intractably corrupt system based on shadowy special interests designed to step on the necks of us common dudes who are simply out there trying to have a good time. The system is not great, or even very good, but it's better than the non-solution you're proposing.

The essential issue here is pretty simple. You fuck a girl and get her pregnant, you live with the consequences. If you don't like the consequences, you get some education and resources together and you deal with it. Stop squealing that it's unfair.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it is more rational to assume there are some exceptional deadbeats out there who find a receptive and gullible audience when they plead poverty after a lifetime of irresponsible living than it is to believe there is an intractably corrupt system based on shadowy special interests designed to step on the necks of us common dudes who are simply out there trying to have a good time.

If by 'rational' you mean ignoring ALL of the evidence, and assuming your own opinion is correct, sure.. I mean, how high are your standards of evidence of corruption????

The essential issue here is pretty simple. You fuck a girl and get her pregnant, you live with the consequences. If you don't like the consequences, you get some education and resources together and you deal with it. Stop squealing that it's unfair.

Ah, nevermind...now I see where you're coming from. "You gotta pay to play"...right...all women are whores...gotcha.

What? That's not what you meant?

Oh, then you just meant that you know men don't have equal rights, and you think it's just fine...because SOMEONE has to pay for the child (and Heaven knows we can't expect the Mother to be an adult and get a job or anything)..

Gee, can I just take this time to say your history as a worker in the CS industry is hardly noticeable at all..

I mean, your hatred of men, sexist double standards, and willingness to impose injustice for a paycheque are all getting in the way of seeing it...

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I'm not shaming anyone

Sure you are. And here you even admit that you do it subconsciously. Decades of male-shaming indoctrination through the media and schools have left an indelible imprint on the collective psyche of western women. Your stereotypical replies have been psychologically debunked as a form of feminist shaming tactics. Read it.

not wonder what kind of paranoia drives that opinion.

It's not "paranoia" but a rational act of self-preservation and selfishness. I don't want to be a slave to the family court or a woman who suddenly decided that she's better off without me physically, but still with a big chunk of my regular income.

Does a 'free' man keep himself under the lock and key of generalized hate?

I don't "hate" anyone. I enjoy women's company daily. I just don't have absolutely any desire to contractually bind myself to one for eternity. Or "commit" as would fembots say. Kneel before the queen and present her an expensive blood diamond that would symbolize my slavery. Fuck that.

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That's not as bad as what I'm looking at, but it's a pretty stiff award. A couple things to bear in mind - first, make sure the support obligation is worded such that if you are paying for >1 child, the support will decrease as each child achieves age of majority (or 19 y/o if still in high school). Otherwise, you're paying a lump sum for undifferentiated "child support" and will be on the hook for the full amount until the youngest child achieves. AOM. Second, it looks like you'll be paying almost $350K for that period. What you will get in return is the knowledge that you have provided a very good financial standard of living for your kid(s), which will carry them through the rest of their lives, and with luck also set a good stage for them to provide for their kids in turn. If you leaven the support with a good, consistent relationship with your kid(s), and at appropriate times make it understood that you did, and would have done, whatever it took to raise them right, they'll really learn that lesson, and it will be more invaluable than the extra house you could have otherwise bought.

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The title changed a word and is misleading. This article talks about a guy that payed child support despite the fact that he shouldn't have needed to do so, and still has it taken out of his check but returned a week later. The changed quote is about a friend that did not pay child support.

But one of the worst cases I know of was a friend, owing $30,000 in back child support. Suffering from liver failure, they took most of his paycheck even though his children were adults. He couldn't feed himself, and his lack of nutrition, and his illness were killing him. He told them, "look you're killing me." Their response was, we don't care: go ahead and die.

I am pro-mensrights, and I have sympathy for the first guy that is being inconvenienced by having part of his money delayed a week and not being paid back the money they shouldn't have actually taken years ago. But I have no sympathy for the guy that didn't pay support/couldn't afford to feed both himself and his kids.

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And this is supposed to elicit sympathy/rage how?

I have a very substantial support order, and because of it I live hand to mouth. My ex has cable and I don't, and I work my ass off and she doesn't have a job. I could get pissed about it and create a lot of pain and bullshit for everyone involved or I can man up and deal with this. I put kids in the world, and I have to make sure they get clothes, food, etc. I didn't marry my ex because I hated her, so for me to begrudge the support now just creates pointless, destructive emotion where it doesn't need to be, especially in a system that will crush me if I don't play ball. Why do I know this? Because I prosecuted child support deadbeats for years and know exactly what kinds of scumbags they can be - they don't deserve a lot of sympathy as a class, and the occasional innocent who gets swept up by pretty severe enforcement laws isn't going to change things. If you don't want to run the risk of child support, (1) don't have kids, (2) don't get involved with crazy, or (3) get custody.

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[–]Mirm83 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You've aquired a private social worker for yourself, outside of any agency already involved, became their main client, and they wouldn't help you? If that's the case, than I can only concede..

But if what you are saying is that you've attempted to seek help from a social worker from a child protection agency, or child support center, or women's shelter, or whatever, then you force me to reiterate, and explain further. Those social workers are not YOUR social worker. They are working in the best interest of either your wife, or your child.

Furthermore, social workers at child protection agencies TEND to either be new in the profession, completely burned out, or at the bottom of the social work barrel. There is much unchecked sexism and bias. I'd like to say that these people are doing what is best for everyone involved, but many times they aren't. You can/should assist in their work (it's in your best interest to be recorded as cooperative), but if you want someone to advocate for YOUR rights, you need to become somebody's main client.

I'm certain more people agree with your view of this matter due to the profession's image problem, but that proves naught. This is one of those instances where all the bad things are brought to light (as they should be), and nobody talks about the good parts of social work. And there are many, many good things about the social work profession.

To sum up, I'm sorry that you (and others) have had bad experiences that have turned you away from what should be a helpful resource to you, but do you really want to turn others away from what could be a helpful resource for them?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You've aquired a private social worker for yourself, outside of any agency already involved, became their main client, and they wouldn't help you? If that's the case, than I can only concede..

Has it occurred to you that the necessity of this should be proof enough that Social Workers (at least, the taxpayer-funded kind...which means the vast majority) are not at all what they portray themselves as (and are granted powers in accordance with this viewpoint). That, in and of itself, is enough indictment of the Social Work industry.

Another point...which "private social workers" are you referring to? Say, for example, I need to go on social assistance, and am running into all kinds of anti male sexism, including different 'pay rates' based on sex as official policy. Which "private social worker" do I turn to?

How about if I'm experiencing difficulties with alcoholism, or depression, and find barriers to treatment at every turn (unless I self-proclaim as a 'batterer' or somesuch)?

Or I find navigating government departments and programs difficult, and the caseworker across the counter from me is completely uninterested in doing their job? What if her supervisor is too?

What if it's actual policy, and not a bad worker?

Which "private social worker" solves that mess for me?

The truth is, Social Work usually involves those who have no money, are under educated, have emotional/psychological problems, or any other of a myriad of maladies. Usually, the Social Worker those people are in contact with explicitly states they are there to work for that person, when they are in truth, not. And many of the departments these social workers are employed by are inherently agenda-driven, further skewing the bias.

Your "Hire a private advocate" approach might seem fine if you're not in that kind of position. But to many people being crushed by bureaucrats, a hundred dollars is the difference between eating or not that week. How many 'billable hours' can they hold out for, do you think?

It's not a 'flawed system', it's a CORRUPT system.

[–]Mirm83 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Only approximately half of social workers are paid by taxpayers. The other half work for private organizations, or are self-employed.

Child protection social workers exist to protect children. That is their main concern, and it should be so. That is why the call them child protection agencies. If you're being treated unfairly in such an instance, you need to have someone who is concerned with you. This does not mean that social workers aren't out to help people, just that these ones can't/won't give you the individual support you need.

If you need to go on social assistance and find that you get different rates as a single male compared to single women, then there isn't anything a social worker could do about that. It is government run , and to have that policy changed, you would need to see your local political representative. I have never heard of such a discrimination, and doubt it's common.. it certainly isn't the policy where I live.

In most areas, there are treatment plans available for depression and alcoholism, neither of which typically would discriminate against males. Males are more likely to suffer from alcoholism! If you don't like the plans covered by your insurance or offered free to the public, you can go to a private practice for treatment.

As for government depts/programs, you'll have to be more specific. Social workers don't typically work across a counter.. and not all governmental departments employ social workers. They also aren't typically the first person you see. Also, some people suck at their job.. that happens in every profession. I've had many, many crappy doctors, but you don't see me bashing the entire medical profession.

Again, if its policy at a government run organization that is the problem, then you need to consult your local politician. Unless it's a small and/or private agency, social workers are not the ones responsible for lawmaking/policy-writing. The best they can do is advocate for change, which usually happens on a macro level, not a micro. You don't get clinical work from a social worker concerned with policy.

You need to stop looking at social workers as if they only exist in government/welfare. Social workers are everywhere, in everything... hospitals, forensics, private practices, wellness centers, local food banks, religious organizations, etc, etc. You can't judge all of them based on your experience with a very small portion of the profession.

As to your assertions that they are not actually there to work for clients, well that's merely your opinion, a huge generalization, and you've not backed that up with any research... Your opinion appears to be based solely on personal experience, which typically leaves a very skewed outlook.

One last thing, a certain amount of therapy or couselling might very well be included in your insurance plan.. check it out. Also, vote.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

One last thing, a certain amount of therapy or couselling might very well be included in your insurance plan.. check it out. Also, vote

Nice couple of digs there, I can tell you're educated.

Anyway, on to your point...

First, I live in Canada, where EVERYTHING is Government sponsored. So yes, the vast majority of Social Workers ARE gov't workers.

I am also aware of certain aspects of social work, as my father was one for the Dept of Indian and Northern Affairs when I was a kid. I know that he would ROUTINELY 'be friends' with his clients, but HAD to turn them in, take away their kids, etc, whenever 'policy' demanded. The fact that 'policy' is out of their hands leaves them exactly as guilt-free as NAZIs who were 'only following orders'. Put aside any 'Godwin's Law' bullshit for a few seconds, and you will see it is an EXACT analogy.

Being a functionary in a large machine does NOT excuse you from judgment...ask any theologian, or legal scholar.

this leaves aside the ideological bias that is the TRUE objection most people have to social workers..the Politically Correct Totalitarian attitude so frustratingly common in the ranks...

And while I may not have backed up my 'huge generalization' with any research...frankly, I don't have to. If you guys keep encroaching, and dictating, and intruding like you have been, your shitty reputation will only grow and grow.

The ONLY way you will improve your social standing is by ACTUALLY IMPROVING....arguing in places like this won't get you very far. Social Workers, like Feminists, are enjoying the reputation they DESERVE....it's not imposed from anywhere.

Strangely, like Feminists everywhere, you can't comprehend this, and cast about looking for someone to blame....

Coincidence? I think not....

[–]Mirm83 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How perfect, I'm Canadian as well. No, not everything is government sponsored. There are many, many private agencies and practices in Canada.

A good social worker never becomes friends with their clients, and completely informs those clients of all the possible downfalls that could occur in a situation (for instance, confidentiality vs. ethics). As for residential schools (which I'm only guessing you are talking about), that was a terrific tragedy that never should have occurred. You know who I blame for it? Everybody. The politicians who made the laws, the social workers and policemen who acted on the orders, the teachers, medical professionals, and religious leaders who resided over the schools, and the whole public in general for sitting idly by and allowing it to happen. That's who I blame.

We're encroaching, dictating, and intruding, according to you? Well, alright then, we'll back off. Next week, when I'm at the hospital, I'll back off and not help Sallly Schizophrenic to find shelter for when she is discharged later that day. I'll ask my friends to make sure that when answering reports of child abuse that they not actually step foot on the property or ask too many questions, to not ask questions of the PSW about why there has been shit in Elderly Elsie's shower for a week, and to stop supplying food and rent subsidies to people down on their luck. What the hell, why not completely pull the suicide hotlines and civil rights movements as well?

Asking social workers to back off, is the same as asking them to not exist, because most social workers are not with child protection, and are not involved in activities even somewhat equivalent to a holocaust. They are there to fill a need, and to help guide people through difficult processes. They teach their clients the skills they need to help themselves. That's what most social workers do.

Remember this conversation one day when you find yourself without work and you need to feed yourself and your pregnant wife, or when your kid gets arrested and charged with criminal activity due to a psychotic break, and the only person you can find who can help you out is a social worker.

Your dad might have been a social worker but you clearly have no idea how much time and effort most social workers put into their work with clients. You don't see them when they go home and sob because of the terrible things they've seen, or how broken they become when they realize they can't ever help enough, or when they spend all night awake trying to find anything at all that might help a certain client. They comfort people in grief, allow people to scream obsenities at them without reacting in kind, and risk thier own health and safety EVERY SINGLE DAY, and to top it all off, have people look down on them like they are terrible people, based on the idea that social work is about taking away people's children and withholding rent cheques.

You have no idea, whatsoever.

On another note, you can throw the word 'feminist' around as much as you want, but it seems to me that YOU are the one looking to place blame here.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Gee, NOW who's being defensive?...

To put it bluntly, I have almost never run across any social worker that is anything but the most ardent, dyed-in-the-wool feminist going. I have a schizophrenic brother and father - yes, the same one - (I dodged that bullet by the way) and I have seen EXACTLY how social workers act in such cases. I have also seen bureaucrats (with social work degrees) refuse to help people because they 'don't believe them' all the goddamned time. Want to guess which sex they 'don't believe'?

Remember this conversation one day when you find yourself without work and you need to feed yourself and your pregnant wife, or when your kid gets arrested and charged with criminal activity due to a psychotic break, and the only person you can find who can help you out is a social worker.

I've had Social Workers tell me that I don't qualify for subsidized rent, because I was a single dad (and therefore needed court documents to show I am entitled to 'benefits') I was not able to have a subsidy on my housing...while my ex (the other 50%) simply got help as a matter of course. I ended up getting tossed from subsidized housing, because they needed to space for 'single mothers'...even though I was paying market value rent.

I have had social workers shirk their duties almost every damned time I've come in contact with them...

And that's just me, and aside from a small window of time, I've never had need to interact with them. But there are PLENTY of horror-stories about social workers to go around...

Let me let you in on something I learned long ago, when I was selling cars for a living...

If you are working in a field that is publicly vilified, or that 'enjoys' an absolutely TERRIBLE reputation...it is NOT a 'public misconception' in most cases. If the public disdain is nationwide, it most definitely is NOT 'mischaracterized'. And no matter how much you view Social Work as a noble profession (which, frankly, it likely was at one time), the fact remains that there is DAMNED GOOD REASON most people view you as slightly above Mafia thugs...

And, like I say to Feminists, you can't TELL people you are 'different' from what they think and expect good results. You want a better reputation, EARN the fucking thing, and actually improve your profession however you can.

IF there are enough of you that 'aren't like that', then you will succeed. If you're all a bunch of lazy, narcissistic, entitled despots...well, your reputation won't change at all, now will it?

[–]xebo 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]no_mames_guey 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am in the process of getting divorced, going on two years now. She left me, walked away from house, left me with all the bills, took our two kids and moved in with her parents. I went for a week with no lights and went another week with no water because I had to pay for the balances and put down deposits when I got those utilities turned back on. Thankfully the state we lived in takes into account her salary when calculating child support. She is trying to get me to pay for childcare to the tune of $300 a week! (her sister, who also lives at home, watches our two kids) The car she drives is paid off, there were only two or three more payments left on it when she left. I am struggling to get by, yet all I hear from her is how she deserves more money, how what she gets is not enough, even though it is set by the state, and how she will not rest until she sees me homeless in the street.

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Women aren't crazy, well not all of them, but they have the ability to ruin a man's life quite easily. I was married to a woman who knew that I never wanted children but she did. She was supposedly on two methods of birth control - depo and the morning after pill. 9 months later I'm the father of a boy.

3 months later, the relationship is getting kind of rocky because of the added stress from the child and she's pregnant a second time. At that time I told her that our relationship could not stand the strain of a second child and that I wanted her to have an abortion. This went over like a lead balloon, even though she'd had an abortion in the past.

Fast forward 5 years - I've become accustomed to the fact that I have two kids with her, we're friendly (but it's strained) and I've become a great father. I have custody every other weekend (for now) and I pay $1000/mo in child support.

I love my boys, but this woman wreaked havoc with my life - financially and emotionally. You're fooling yourself if you think that men have any rights in a relationship except to leave.

Also, 1/10 for the troll. You tried too hard.

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[–]LoudmouthedBitch -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

women are just as capable of that as men…

Honestly, you'd need to be in great denial of actual statistics to believe that female-on-male DV and rape is as bad and as prevalent as male-on-female DV and rape. On the other hand, I think it's true that society has a problem with acknowledging male victims, which I think relates to the idea that a male has to always embody a "hyper masculine" persona, which means never being "feminine" in any way. Being a victim, unfortunately, is regarded as "feminine."

Regarding the "crying rape," false rape accusations only occur at about the same rate as any other type of false criminal accusation. If anything, I've seen the "crying rape" trope pulled out at every instance a woman claims she's been raped as a means to silence the fact that women are, in fact, raped/sexually assaulted at an alarmingly high rate.

So once you drop the attitude and approach the conversation like an adult, then we can talk.

To me, this seems to have much more of an "attitude" than my original comment.

[–]ignatiusloyola -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This isn't a troll account, it's just my first account. The material in mensrights made me want to make that post because sometimes, that is the sentiment reflected her. 'All women are evil/crazy/gonna fuck your life over', but not because they're bad individuals-- the sentiment is that it's a fault of their gender. My opinion is more the former-- individuals deviate so often from gender/racial/societal norms, how can we draw broad conclusions like that?

Some of the stuff said in /r/MR are just as extremist as the "feminazis" they curse. Unfortunately when I picked my username I made it obvious that I'm a lady-- so it seems like I'm "playing for the other team". However, if you see my other replies in this thread, you will see I may often find myself with the unpopular opinion, but I am serious and rational about my other contributions on reddit.

P.S. - By the way, do you attend Ignatius Loyola high school?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually I posted it twice, and it was not my only response I made. However, a short, sarcastic phrase sometimes highlights very well the comment one is making. When a guy in a thread says "I just am not interested in having my life destroyed by some crazy chick", deadpan delivery, how do we take that seriously? Based on the material here, he's already anticipating those kinds of problems, inherently as a fault of women's behaviour/nature/whatever you like. As a result, this guy has said he plans never to have anything to do with women (Which, I would purport is the original troll here). Is this MR's message?

No matter where you hail from, I dont think any sane MRA's intend that kind of revulsion. Subconcious or not, meeting places like this happen out of a desire to effect change in what is troubling, and not simply spread hate.

And so, my sarcastic, Caps-Lock'd reply was merely intended to highlight the sentiments here. A foil upon which our own behaviour may be reflected back to us, as it were.

Edit: Sorry if this ended up being a long reply. I guess if you didn't bother to read the others, this seems extra redundant.

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[–]jack_skellington 62 points63 points64 points 15 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kashadub -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (67 children) | Copy Link

Hmm. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm a bit skeptical. I haven't had to pay for a teenager yet, but I spend $500 a month on childcare alone, and even that's a really good rate. I would imagine the costs of raising a teenager add up similarly quickly. Also, I'm a big proponent of teaching kids some responsibility and to manage their own finances, but I do think the kind thing for a parent to do is to help out a little with car insurance, a small college fund, etc. Obviously this gets complicated when you're not on good terms with the other parent, but if the other parent can help out financially, they should contribute to things like this.

Parents of teenagers: does it get cheaper when they become teens? I've been working under the assumption that I'm just going to trade off one kind of expense for another, but if not, please do tell. If it gets cheaper, I've got something to look forward to! ;)

[–]s0nicfreak 12 points13 points14 points 15 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kashadub -4 points-3 points-2 points 15 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

If the kid does not have a job that more than pays for the car insurance they don't need a car, imo.

I disagree. First jobs don't really pay a lot, and young drivers are expensive to insure. Having a job teaches a teen responsibility first and foremost. My parents helped me out a little with my car insurance, and as such I was able to both hold a job my senior year of high school as well as complete 12 credits worth of college. I wouldn't have made it to class on time if I walked or took public transit. Not only did I gain a strong work ethic, but I was able to complete my college credits sooner. My parents were always straightforward with me about just how much they paid to help me out, so I knew what to expect when it came time for me to take on my finances 100%.

This is how I see it: if you're not going to help your kids transition to the "real world," why bother raising them at all? It's like planting a garden and expecting it to water itself. I realize not everyone sees it this way, but conversely this means that not all parents believe they should toss their kids into the deep end and expect them to swim, either.

[–]s0nicfreak -5 points-4 points-3 points 15 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Thinks_Like_A_Man 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

If the child is female, they are very expensive at that age. Clothing is outrageous as are "necessary items" like make up, tampons (ever price a box of those?), hair care items. If your kid has any health issues, that adds up fast. I have one child who's prescriptions run $125 a month, every month.

Entertainment is a big black hole as well. A dance at school, a movie, an outing with friends is a minimum of $20. Then school nickel and dimes you to death, with art supplies, fees, fundraisers, etc.

There is another issue that is often ignored and that is the cost to house a child. You have to provide them a room. This means you're going to need a bigger home.

It's too bad that people make kids suffer for their bad relationships. I support that both parents should contribute equally to the cost of raising a child and this should be documented with receipts, so there is no issue of what it costs. Thank god my ex and I are good friends because there's no way I could support my child on $250 a month and he gives me more than the court minimum. Just tuition, medical bills and fixed costs alone are $700, that doesn't include food, entertainment or clothing.

So a lot of it depends on the kid and the expenses. Are their tutors? Car insurance? Medical bills?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Thinks_Like_A_Man 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]giveitawaynow 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]giveitawaynow -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

My argument wasn't so much about the actual cost (please don't try to steer the debate in the wrong direction -- an often mistake many females do -- not afraid to call out on how it is), but of what the costs are. I'll pretend like you're a 4th grader so you have a chance at understanding...

Entertainment is a big black hole as well. A dance at school, a movie, an outing with friends is a minimum of $20. Then school nickel and dimes you to death, with art supplies, fees, fundraisers, etc.

1) Entertainment doesn't have to be (<-- keywords re-read them please one more time...) a big black hole. How about you teach your kid some ways to think outside the box for a quick second? Instead of paying for those dance lessons, have him/her offer themselves to cleaning up the school after the dance in order to get into it for free. Yes, I've done this exact thing (to get into a play though rather than a dance).

2) Public school? I'm assuming we're talking about that, if you were smart enough to place your child in a private school (not saying public schools are a bad choice -- I am generally speaking in this context) you'd be smart enough to leave that private school if you didn't agree with their policies/penny-pinching habits (logical deductive reasoning -- remember I'm arguing about the thought-process behind one who would send their child to a private school NOT private vs public school). Back on track... if your child does go to a private school, you don't have to give out a penny nor a dime to them since your taxes cover it (for me personally, I would give the additional funds to school -- I help out teachers in the beginning of the year setting up their classrooms as I don't have much money myself [well I do but for my own investments]). If you're arguing that paying those additional things should be mandatory, I'd have more fun talking to a wall.

Teaching your kids those valuable skills is part of being good parent (this is my personal opinion -- grain of salt). Also, just because you are a mother doesn't mean you know how to be a parent. I don't have to put my hand in fire in order to now that it's hot/dangerous.

There is another issue that is often ignored and that is the cost to house a child. You have to provide them a room. This means you're going to need a bigger home.

You wont need a bigger HOME you'd just need more ROOM. +1 room to anything you currently have should be sufficient, just paying for his/her room would be under an ideal/efficient system (if any single dollar DOESN'T go towards his kid then the opportunity cost could [not saying it will be but more often than not...] be wasting money). Remember, it's called child support, not child-and-mommy support. And what about when you find another someone else and marry them? You could (not saying you always would) be brought into a big house with plentiful of room for your kid(s). Therefore, eliminating the cost altogether for +1 room. If the husband can take on your debt, he can take on your kids as well (kids are a form of financial debt, not necessarily emotional debt).

So a lot of it depends on the kid and the expenses. Are their tutors? Car insurance? Medical bills?

Agreed, and I would argue you are an exception to the general rule on single-mothers. But also remember, a car is always and forever will be a luxury item. There is nothing wrong with riding your bike, walking, or taking the bus (I've been using my own car less as well for multiple reasons -- so it can be done). So, for future reference, do not use a car or any other luxury item in your argument. Medical bills are a necessity (health is) but you're also forgetting one additional step... (Keynesian economists listen up...) those medical bills, those doctor visits, etc. (excluding yearly check ups) could be caused by a number of factors such as bad health ("We have to give him/her food but I don't want to cook and make proper meals or have the time to do so!"), not enough exercise ("My husband needs to pay for car insurance! HEAR ME ROAR!") , or drinking late at night and staying up until the late hours ("But he/she needs money for entertainment! ROAR!")

[Translation for Keynesians ...there's always an opportunity cost to breaking a glass window, and there's always a variable that's not immediate to the eyes -- please please I beg of all of you.. to take all variables into consideration].

[–]KFHustler 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]giveitawaynow -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I've never had a problem with insulting nor being insulted. If someone can get past that very basic step then they'll be able to discuss a debate logically and not emotionally (it's a filter system). Remember, in debates/arguments/etc. you want NO emotions since emotions are completely irrational and have no place in a debate/conversation that requires at least a pinch of intelligence.

If the user CANNOT get past that very basic step, then in 110% honesty you'll have a much better conversation with a wall, since they're both just as rational (yes that's an insult too -- get over it).

tl;dr It's incredibly hard to have an intelligent conversation with anyone who cannot emotionally handle a simple insult (read up on stoicism if you're having trouble with that step) so it's a filter system on who can and cannot have a debate/argument/intelligent conversation. And if you're referring to the Keynesian part I was simply illustrating metaphors for those people who have a hard time at understanding basic economics.

[–]KFHustler 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]skros 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The father may be in violation of the divorce ruling. Child support payments are frequently added on top of other expenses that are expected to be paid as needed. The poster mentioned a few:

He does not pay for anything else. Car insurance, the car, gas, clothes, shoes, or anything else for our son (he is 16).

It may be the case that he should be paying for these but simply doesn't because he knows it isn't cost-effective for his ex to take him to court to get them enforced. It really depends on the ruling. You would be surprised how easy it is for a divorced parent to simply never take their child for doctors appointments and then refuse to pay half the medical bill when the other parent does so. There are no repercussions outside of being sued, and even then it's possible to get a good attorney, win the case, and stick the attorney's bill on the loser.

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[–]s0nicfreak 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

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It is not luck. You're looking at things as if major illnesses are the default and we are lucky to not get them. This way of thinking is what the insurance companies are betting on. The truth is not getting a major illness is the default. Sure there are risks of getting a major illness. But as I said if one of us does get a major illness we will be able to negotiate costs down and (I didn't say this but) arrange payment plans. And it would be extremely unlikely that the whole family would get major illnesses all at the same time, so we don't really have to put a set amount per child but for the whole family. There is no set amount spent per child; as I said, in the past 2 years one of them has had 4 doctors visits (total $60) and one has gone to the emergency room (total $500).

The mom can take $15 from the $250 the guy pays and put that towards medical care. If the kid has to unexpectedly go to the emergency room, he should have to pay half the bill.

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[–]s0nicfreak 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Unless they are living on a farm they are most likely not a two hour walk away from school, and either way there is most likely a bus that the kid could ride, or mom could drive him instead of having his own car.

But this is not about the car, the iphone, or the xbox; it is about these things not being needs. It does not matter if parents typically buy these things. It does not matter if all of his peers have an iphone and an xbox. These things are not needs and therefore his father has no requirement to buy them. It his father wants to buy him these things, fine, let him buy them. If he doesn't, nothing is wrong with that as long as he is providing half of the kid's needs. But there is absolutely no reason he should be required to give his ex an extravagant amount of money so that she can decide to buy the kid iphones or books or anything. That's quite the opposite of reasonable.

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[–]s0nicfreak -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]XFDRaven 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then what you're basically entertaining is that reckless spending is an acceptable reality. This leads to all kinds of other entitlements of recklessness that feed narcissistic behaviors and creates shitty people and loads of debt that they can't pay off. It also fuels the stereotype of the wife with the limitless creditcard that goes on $5,000 weekend trips to the mall.

Needs trump wants. I'd like to have a $500,000 sports car, but I do not need it; I am also not entitled to it. No one should have a gun held to their head and be told to pay up for something that is not a need.

If, on the other hand, the fundamental needs begin to creep in costs, then there should be an obvious means of demonstrating this fact through receipts. However, the instant a want is included, all credibility is destroyed.

[+]ShakeyBobWillis -7 points-6 points-5 points 15 years ago (78 children) | Copy Link

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I've had to feed, clothe and shelter myself at less than $500 per month - so, yes I can.

I am arguing that child support should be evenly divisible. The father should not pay ALL the child's expenses at the other parent's house, plus there should be a deduction since the mother is paying ZERO of the expenses when the child is with Dad (gee, this is overlooked often, isn't it). The average increase of an extra bedroom is $100-$150 whether you live in the ghetto or the suburbs of the very wealthy (the difference is base cost of rent, the price increase for an extra bedroom is pretty standard, ghetto to money hills). The mothers get a sense of entitlement that the child support money should also be spent on them, or they spend it on non-necessities. The money is strictly for necessities, to food, clothe, shelter, and educate the child. Who says mom should get extra money to buy Jr Xbox games and pay for a smartphone every month? Now that the kid isn't living with both parents together, he should be entitled to things he didn't have before?

[–]ShakeyBobWillis 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]outphase84 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I pay $600/mo for one child. Mother doesn't work. Goes to NHL games almost every week, sits rinkside.

I also pay $105/mo just for health insurance for that child. Wanna know a neat trick? It doesn't reduce my support at all. So, effectively, I'm paying 40% of my net income while she runs around and lives a life of luxury.

Most states add the cost of the health insurance onto whatever magical number they come up with for the total amount of child support due is, and then multiply that cost by the percentage of combined income the parent paying for the insurance receives, and then subtracts the difference from what they're ordered to pay.

Except in situations where mom is too lazy to work and has a sugar daddy, dad pays 100% of the cost ON TOP of what he already pays in child support. Fair, right?

[–]ShakeyBobWillis 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Never said I agreed with anything that happened to you. Or that health insurance should be above and beyond the amount figured into child support, though I do think that healthcare should be part of child support.

Also, what she does with the money (while asshatted if she's using the money on herself) has no bearing on whether or not the amount set for your child support was rational or not. It was calculated based on what the child needs. I also agree some level of monitoring should be done to at least make an attempt to ensure the child support is actually being used on the child.

Don't mistake me suggesting that child support should try to provide more for a child than a baseline poverty existence with suggesting there's not some major problems with the way child support is currently ruled on and administered through the courts.

Would you feel, if all $600 went to your child, that it was 'too much'?

[–]outphase84 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If that's what it took to raise a child, then no, I would not.

Thing is, the child in question is not my only child. I know very well the costs of raising a child, and it is not that. If the state is going to set child support guidelines so high due to the 'cost of raising a child', then the state needs to oversee that the money goes TOWARDS the child. If only $200 goes towards the child's needs, the rest should either go back to the one paying support, or go into an interest-bearing account as a college fund. It is completely irrational for it to not only be tolerated, but legally allowed and encouraged that the recipient use the money on whatever they want.

It's called child support, not child and extravagant lifestyle support. The fact of the matter is, of the $600 I pay, $600 is not going towards the support of my child.

And that is wrong.

[–]ShakeyBobWillis 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]KazPinkerton 13 points14 points15 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Or you could grow a pair of fucking cojones and tell him to get a fucking job if he wants those kinds of luxuries. When I was 16, I got a car, and had to get a job to keep it gassed, insured and so forth. I also had to pay for my OWN luxury services, e.g: iPhone Data (my parents were kind enough to go ahead and pay the $20 extra line out of their own pocket) and Xbox Live (which is only like $65 a year or something, it was $50 for 13 months when I started. It's fucking peanuts)

tl;dr, Quit playing the victim, grow some fucking balls, or big floppy labia or something, and GET SOME FUCKING SHIT DONE. If you can't afford to take him to court, then you can't afford to bitch. He lives in the UK, there's likely little you can do anyway. Be fucking grateful he sends anything at all, at this point it's probably optional for him, and exchange rates are probably eating up a lot of what he feels like he's sending. I swear, people like you are everything wrong with this goddamn society.

</rage>

[–]KFHustler 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kashadub 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not trying to gang up on you, but couldn't he be asked to pay for his own entertainment-related stuff? I think it's reasonable to try to help him out with stuff related to his education and enrichment, but it may be a great object lesson to get him to manage his own money for the stuff he "just wants."

I absolutely think you should expect financial help from the other parent for the things he needs and the things that help him to become a better person or that ease the transition to adulthood (e.g. helping him out a bit with car insurance so he can go use the car to drive to his job), but I don't think it's fair to demand help paying for what amount to things he (your son) should be paying for himself anyhow. Sorry. I'm 100% in your corner with the frustrations of how costly it can be raising a kid, but an XBox and iPhone are just not necessary.

[–]pajtaz 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]pajtaz 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have a life. Therefore, I have a frame of reference. I am saying this is trolling because it does not make logical sense saying that a teenager generates "a lot of expense" and then list expenses that are luxuries for teenagers, let alone adults. To simplify - car, car insurance, gas, iPhone, X-Box Live, expensive shoes, hair gel (a big expense), date money are all extravagant expenses. They are not essentials and your son can earn money (such as I did and many other teenagers) if he wants those luxuries. Hence, this is a troll. No reasonable parent would list such as "expenses" as essentials.

On the other hand, if you yourself were spoiled and were given such luxuries and you feel your son is entitled to them and that is why they are required expenses, then you are not living in the same world as rest of us. Besides food and household expenses, everything else you listed is considered a luxury by most people. It is not only considered a luxury, it is a luxury simply because it costs lots of money to buy those things and those things are not essential for your son's development and survival as a human being or teenager.

Again, a troll. You just made me waste 10 minutes of my time. Nice troll.

[–]papajohn56 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Because my parents aren't complaining on the internet that they can't suck more money out of someone who has OBVIOUSLY been ejected from that kid's life (or does Daddy commute intercontinentally every week or two?).

You're a TERRIBLE mother, and your hate for the father comes across loud and fucking clear. And yes, your Son has noticed, even if he hasn't said anything (or even articulated it to himself).

Sure, it's possible he WON'T hate you just in time for you to hit the Retirement Home...

But if there's any Cosmic Justice, he sure as fuck will. And if you don't cut the shit out, and I mean right now, you'll deserve every last agonizing moment on your death bed knowing that not only does your Son hate you, but you brought it on yourself.

Sure, you may think I'm wrong...I quite possibly am.

Take the chance, if that's your thing.

Just don't say you didn't know when the time comes....

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Instead of me! me! me! I propose you work together and realize you both have to share your son's upbringing. If it costs $1000 a month to cover his needs, then you both should be paying $500. Fair is fair, right? And notice this completely has nothing to do with custody or what either of you earn. You both made the boy, you should both be equally responsible for his upbringing. Period. If that means he only has to spend 1/10th of his income because he's got a good income, but you need to work 2 jobs to cover your share, well, tough titties.

IMO you need to put up or shut up. If you really think it's such a problem raising your son then by all means hand over custody. After all, you say the dad is well off, shouldn't you 'think of the children' and give your son the best by way of dad having primary custody? Hmm? What's that you say? No? How very interesting in a selfish sort of way..

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