Inherent hostility of feminist spaces and academia

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2022-02-06T12:39:36+00:00

I'm sticking this to the top because not only is it a decisive criticism of harmful language. And how hiding behind the "academic definition" Is often nothing more than a Motte and Bailey. But also of the harmful moderation practices that uphold and reinforce a toxic status quo in the menslib community.

The fact that this post contains a comment that was removed for being critical of the moderation outside of modmail (a private chat where the mods can mute you, hide their identities and secretly add conversational notes for one another) is highly indicative of just how toxic it is.

Complete-Temporary-6 · 2022-02-06T20:20:16+00:00

They banned me simply because I stated correct numbers out of the NISVS studies. They do not care about the truth, they care about the perception of being right.

ExMuzzy · 2022-02-06T14:14:45+00:00

It’s annoying when toxic-masculinity is femsplained to men to explain why it’s justified instead of using misandry or internalised misandry. It always leads back to patriarchy and thus completely ignores women’s role in established gender norms.

Worst is feminists seem to care more about using and explaining the term rather than supporting the guy who’s asking for support.

Language is important and they know it.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2022-02-06T18:11:16+00:00

/u/radioactive-subjects couldn't have said it better myself.

Semantics are absolutely important. Especially considering that semantics are an absolutely colossal problem with how these feminist subs often "treat" mens rights issues. (no quantifiers to be seen, rhetorical trickery, full of unnecessarily charged language that belittles even victimised/marginalised men and implies that they are somehow inherently defective)

The line that if you don't agree with someone, then you must be unintelligent or ignorant is peak anti-intellectualism. There is no need to convince someone that what you're saying is right when you can just belittle and shame them before they uncritically accept what you say. (hence the extremely weak defences you often see, that required coaxing to get beyond accusations of ignorance)

This isn't even a criticism of feminist spaces directly, this is present in most progressive spaces. (far lesser in places like here, stupidpol, etc.)

PricklyGoober · 2022-02-06T11:34:10+00:00

I suppose this user could be referring to terms like “toxic masculinity”.

Probably discussed to death here already but I still don’t understand why so many people must insist on using the term to describe the root of mental health issues in men when it is easily abused and even when said men speak up against it, they are told they don’t understand and have to ironically ‘suck it up’.

Do we use “toxic femininity” to describe self-detrimental behaviour that are more commonly expressed in women? I doubt so, and I think that would be equally fked up if we did.

So I really don’t understand. Aside from alienating men by upholding such double standards, what do feminists (especially those who time and time again claim to be for equality) gain by doing this?

Phantombiceps · 2022-02-06T17:08:10+00:00

The amazing thing is “toxic femininity” is a term used by feminists, but is totally dis analogous to “toxic masculinity” , and they don’t even notice! TM hurts women primarily and men on the side, TF hurts women primarily and women on the side.

FreeingThatSees · 2022-02-06T19:46:51+00:00

You gotta stop believing the academic term. No one is seriously using that version. Everyone is using the common, stupid extremely-obviously-motte-and-bailey version. Don't be confused by equating wordswordswordsing with a good argument.

Sorry-Difference5942 · 2022-02-06T18:01:20+00:00

I've often gotten the impression that the rules in MensLib are written police-state style to give them built-in reasons to pull any posts they disagree with, no matter the topic or how much they kowtow their agenda. I have much less issue with the forum there than most because it occasionally results in incredibly well written discussion that challenges some common feminist assumptions about men, but it definitely feels like they look at moderation through the lens of "what will we allow" and not "what do we need to remove".

Their reliance on one or two posters to simply spam the place with links to articles in order to drive discussion reflects this a lot. It's much easier for MensLib to be reactive to anything then it is for the mods to allow proactive discussion.

Also, friendly reminder that there's a rarely-used but still-active subreddit that the mods keep specifically to make fun of comments they find egregious - r/MensGlib

the_bass_saxophone · 2022-02-06T20:05:20+00:00

if you aren't fully comfortable with that language, the assumption is that you don't understand it.

What's not allowed is positing any bad faith on the part of radfems, wokies and similar communities. That's why discomfort can't be acknowledged, only parsed as misunderstanding.

Another thing in the mix: these communities have in common that they "owe no one an education." Explanation or debate are off the table. But it ought to be obvious that that, right there, is a position of bad faith. And perhaps they feel they have a right to it, whereas oppressor groups do not.

But there needs to be a continuing conversation, not just a tight lacing of the shoe on the other foot and a smug "how does it feel?"

TintelFroot · 2022-02-06T12:01:51+00:00

and expressing discomfort with certain terms is considered anti feminism. But the discomfort still exists, it's just not allowed to be expressed.

This is so incredibly bad for someone's mental health, but I have a feeling that's kinda the point of menslib, isn't it?

LettuceBeGrateful · 2022-02-07T04:44:14+00:00

What a productive, sensitive, emotionally intelligent comment. Exactly the sort of thing menslib throws in the garbage.

iainmf · 2022-02-07T06:32:31+00:00

This is why I like to explicitly ask people to stop using the term 'toxic masculinity' because I find it hurtful.

Most of the time the response is effectively 'man up' and stop being so sensitive.

Algoresball · 2022-02-07T17:31:05+00:00

I got banned from that sub because I asked a teacher to not call his severely depressed middle school student “toxic”. This comment hits the nails on the head and I feel like it puts into words what I have been trying to say. I fully understand what “toxic masculinity” meant when it was first used. But that’s not how it’s used most of the time now and regardless, people are insulted by it. I think this commenter is so correct.

Interesting-Eye-5464 · 2022-02-06T09:57:13+00:00

What feminism says it is verses what it actually is, are two totally different things. What feminists and google will tell you is its “the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.” What feminism really is is a toxic man-hating victimhood cult.

TheRabbitTunnel · 2022-02-06T14:48:18+00:00

An interesting comment by radioactive-subjects in MensLib (it was deleted obviously)

Of course their terrible mods deleted it. Its baffling how much overlap this sub has with menslib. That sub is such an anti-male shithole. The mods remove content that talks about real mens issues (like mens lack of reproductive rights), but allow content that talks about mens fake issues (like men being teased for wearing a dress).

Heres a great example of how terrible that sub is: One of their current top posts is a wall of text claiming that MRAs in India are awful humans because "men have all the rights". This is absolute nonsense. Indian men face their own issues and they should be able to discuss those issues without being smeared as "entitled misogynists".

But of course, menslib has a massive circlejerk about how MRAs in India "reek of entitlement" and "its all the patriarchy" and other horseshit. The post doesn't have anything to do with mens rights. Just them hating on MRAs.

Sorry if this seems too hostile or breaks rules. It just baffles my mind that so many male advocates think that sub is good.

publicdefecation · 2022-02-24T18:45:04+00:00

I always thought that it was disingenuous to monopolize the concept of gender equality under the banner of "feminism" than exclusively address women's rights and issues.

To be clear, I think women's rights are important and should be properly addressed but feminism shouldn't pretend to represent the entirety of gender issues nor should they pretend that they're concerned with gender equality when truly the only thing they care about is women's rights.

Strikes001 · 2022-02-06T15:53:33+00:00

You should crosspost this to r/FEMINISMUNCENSORED

griii2 · 2022-02-08T07:17:57+00:00

Question for those of you with a first hand experience from academia.

Are "safe spaces" the norm or are they rather exceptions? Are "safe spaces" openly sexist, as in for instance prohibiting the entrance of males? Is race also designated, as in prohibition of white people?

AutodidacticTactic · 2022-02-06T20:53:06+00:00

I have been on this rant for forever.

I personally feel that the term is not true, and there is no such thing. I just think that there is one term. Masculinity. And all masculinity is good. All of it.

The same exact actions that are defined that way are done by men and women. I've seen TONS of videos showing women being "toxic men."

When men and women are assholes, then they are assholes. It applies to both genders - both can be assholes. This has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.

You are 100% correct. I have discussed with many, many women in my discussions of "toxic masculinity." Of course, they always go to the standard definition "it's not men, it is their bad behavior." I've then asked, "Why we don't have "toxic femininity"" and to hammer the point in, I ask instead of calling it "toxic femininity" why don't we call it a different term, like "bitc-y females"? And that it would not refer to all women not calling all women "bitc-y females," just the ones who are. This would be totally unacceptable, and women would rightly be up in arms, even with the qualifier that we are only talking about the behavior of some women, and not all. Just the behavior that is supposedly only relates to women. So no way would women accept that term, because it is flucked up, just like "toxic masculinity." I also ask women that I'm having a discussion with that we should in addition to using "mansplaining" that men should use the term "womennagging" or "women-no-logic". Again, totally unacceptable in all terms like this.

The reason they are so insidious and evil is that while the definition is one thing, that is not how the mind translates it. It's just not. I've read many experiments, read many books written by neuroscientists, that people hear "toxic masculinity" and only hear "all men are toxic, all men are evil." Again, not talking about what the academic definition. I'm talking how the brain actually works, consciously and subconsciously. It's an especially completely evil terms when used by males from birth to age 25 years old, and even worse up to the age of 12-years-old. They don't get the difference, the academic definitions. They will ask what it means, "masculinity is men, toxic means bad." That is the first thing that the boys, and girls, will hear. Every explanation afterwards is meaningless.

I have discussed this in MANY subreddits with women, about why there are no corresponding terms for women, like "toxic femininity" or "bitc-y women" and have never once had any response at all. Not one. No attempt at a justification, just totally ignored. It's quite frustrating, because I would actually like a woman's feedback on it.

Also, they don't appreciate it at all when I suggest that we now live in a matriarchy. And give examples.

All this is from a reasoned point of view on my side, not angry. I'm not angry, but I do have feelings of frustration. And even if it was anger, so what??? We, as men, are supposed to talk about our feelings. Anger is a feeling, it is not a "evil" feeling. There's nothing "bad" about anger. And before anyone says it, I'm not talking about physical violence. That is one expression of anger, out of many, many different expressions of anger. For example, many people have been driven to do great things, very great things, by anger. It can provide extreme motivation to do great things. It has.

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