Anonymous post comparing RadFems to Radical Christians.

Christian egalitarianism (derived from the French word égal, meaning equal or level), also known as biblical equality, is a Christian form of the moral doctrine of Egalitarianism. It holds that all human persons are created equally in God's sight—equal in fundamental worth and moral status. This view does not just apply to gender, but to religion, skin colour and any other differences between individuals.

Yeah, that's not technically "egalitarian"... is it? The bible has a lot of philosophy that puts men ahead of women, and presupposes their role and purpose. As a man, I find that to be pretty detestable philosophy. I don't want advantages just because I'm male, nor do I want disadvantages. The same can be said of women, who don't deserve to have disadvantages outlined and prescribed by a two millennium old set of goat-herder philosophies.

[–]Hessmix8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Hurm... *

let me expand on this for a moment... one, I see I'm getting downvotes, no complaints there... it's highly unpopular to call out Xians for their misogyny, even more so on an MRA subreddit... but let's examine this for a moment, Jesus (a man) dies for the sins of all of humanity.

Can you come up with a more disposable use for a man than to "save" all of humanity from a made up illness?

So... hurm. You probably can't, and don't agree that it is a "made up illness".

No need to drag this out.

GO your own way with your faith, but I'm an atheist, I don't think any life (be it a man's or woman's) is a reasonable sacrifice to forgive all of mankind for anything. It's just an unreasonable approach to reality, and I thank you for the downvotes. They merely confirm that you are living with a comfortable lie, and my disruption has given you cause to "respond" with a click. Thanks.

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That's really not much of a correction... considering even some scholars who believe the book of lies known as the bible doubt the divinity of Jesus.

he was the Son of God

Let's suppose for a moment that you're right. What you're saying is akin to saying (as far as I'm concerned) Thor was the son of the elder god Odin... as if it's well-known, indisputable fact. While your statement is internally consistent and a fact within Christian mythology, it makes it no more applicable to reality (or this conversation).

It doesn't take a very well-read scholar to see the blatant and rampant misogyny in every Abrahamic religion. Women are typically the folly of men, they lead to much destruction. Women are often referred to as unclean, or mischievous... worse so on their periods. Women aren't heroic or strong characters in any way other than their deference and support of their husbands. Daughters are treated as property and sold or raped as a means to pay debts. And many men in the bible disregard women completely as useless in their lives. This is highlighted, in my opinion, in the two largest character flaws of the literary (and fictional) character of Jesus.

He never marries anyone, so he never truly loves (eros) a woman or man (which is cool too).

He never has children (thus negating a chance of him having to have an era-specific opinion about his daughter, or son).

Both of those character flaws put Jesus outside the realm of an easy to relate to character (or real person, or mythic person) which is why so many people fill that void in the character with themselves or people they admire already (like their parents).

Anyway...

I refer to him as "a man" because as referred to within to your faith.. he took human form and was "a man" for a time. Note my statement does NOT include "just a man" or "only a man". You are projecting the idea of dismissal on my part of Christ's divinity bro. Sure, if you believe your myths, he certainly was the son of God, and that's entirely different. It's the same way vampires in Twilight and the Sookie Stackhouse series are entirely different.

[–]EricTheHalibut1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Most western Christians will ignore all of the old testament which doesn't agree with their own prejudices, and will excuse a lot of Paul's rubbish by either saying that he was doing his best in a troubled but imminently doomed world, or by relying on the fact that between the gospels, Paul's letters, and Acts, you can justify just about anything. (GB Shaw argued (in his preface to Androcles and the Lion) that Jesus supported the principles of Fabian/Shavian communism, while plenty of Americans in particular are convinced that Christianity requires extreme neoliberal capitalism.)

Thus, those who want to use Christianity to say that men are superior can point to the instructions from Paul about the place of women in the Church, while those who are egalitarians can point to some local religious leaders with feminine names, and Jesus's teaching to Martha and Mary, while disregarding Paul's comments by saying that as he was convinced that the world was about to end, he was more interested in getting people to accept Christ as the saviour while there was still time rather than teaching the finer points of Jesus's philosophy.

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I can honestly say I have never, not once, ever heard a feminist say that we need to euthanize the male population

If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. -- [Mary Daly] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men)

SCUM will kill all men who are not in the Men's Auxiliary of SCUM. Men in the Men's Auxiliary are those men who are working diligently to eliminate themselves, men who, regardless of their motives, do good, men who are playing pall with SCUM. -- ["Feminist Heroine" Valerie Solanas] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas#After_murder_attempt)

And you can find a whole bunch more [here] (http://radicalhub.com/).

These people are not like the random MRA extremists. The people who've spewed hatred like that mentioned above are well regarded as important feminists. Scholars, philosophers and luminaries. Even the people posting on radfemhub have some pretty high profile jobs in university and politics.

So no, any extremism coming out of the MRM can't even aspire to the heights of hatred that feminism has already scaled.

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I guess to be a little bit more precise, "all men are to blame for everything" is the natural consequence of the true core of feminism: assuming "women are oppressed" (no proper verification required). When said assumption is false, something like this happens:

Create "The Patriarchy™" boogeyman
Fail to find "The Patriarchy™"
Extend search for "The Patriarchy™"
Eventually encompass all men.

When I say "fail to find" I mean that feminists fail to find mechanisms that directly support the idea of "The Patriarchy™". Without it they resort to misusing statistics, misrepresenting facts, and ignoring damning counter-evidence as proof that it "must exist". In other words, it's really not that much different from your standard "Aliens" conspiracy theory except it was adopted on a very large scale thanks to its underlying "protect the women" ideology.

[–]Volcris2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ghebert0013 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sure there are some radical MRA out there...but tell me how many of them are in gov't or in some other position of authority and influence in society. We have radical feminists to thank for things like vawa and the dear colleague letter (maybe not directly but I'm sure they had their hand in these in some way). What are the extremist MRA equivalents? Society is already in the "men bad, women good" mentality so extremist MRA won't be convincing anyone of the opposite anytime soon but radical feminists on the other can use emotional arguments to their advantage like "best interests of the child" and get the benefit of the doubt.

Edit: To add to that, extremism is bad no matter which side.of.the coin we're talking about but one is getting support from gov't and society while the other doesn't.

[–]seriesoftubesguy2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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it's people like you who make me run away from the men's rights movement.

If a few minor harsh words are all it takes to send you blubbering and crying in a corner, you frankly don't have the stones to be an MRA, you also don't seem to care as much about the rights of men as you claim if thats all it takes to make you abandon it.

You should learn to use legitimate words

This one made me chuckle

"legitimate words".

Good thing we're not talking about rape lol.

And I already previously stated in another comment the I was here specifically to gain perspective, so look around a bit next time before using an argument fueled by emotion rather than logic.

I like this part where you admit you're quick to judge without any perspective what so ever, but then get mad that others are on your case about doing as much when "all you want is perspective".

In the words of anon, lurk more, keep your mouth shut until you have something actually enlightened about the situation to say.

If you really believe the most radical and extreme MRA is even half as bad as the average rad fem, you don't know shit.

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Atheists also can't join the Freemasons :( So much for dat inner circle bump.

seven states where atheists cannot legally hold public office.

I found this so absurd I actually had to look it up to make sure but...

Arkansas http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Article_19,_Arkansas_Constitution

Atheists Disqualified from Holding Office or Testifying as Witness: No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.

Maryland http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/00dec.html

Art. 37. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God

Mississippi http://www.mscode.com/msconst/14/14-265.html

Article 14, Section 265. Denial of Supreme Being disqualification to hold office. No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state. SOURCES: 1817 art VI § 6; 1832 art VII § 5; 1869 art XII § 3.

Pennsylvania http://www.the-patriot-s-voice.org/id18.html

Article 1, Section 4. No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.

South Carolina http://www.scstatehouse.gov/scconstitution/a17.php

SECTION 4. Supreme Being. No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

Tennessee http://www.tncrimlaw.com/law/constit/IX.html (section 3 also forbids duelists, sorry Yugi and Yami)

Section 2 No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.

Texas yeah okay.

Also North Carolina appears to be missing.

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The main problem is that back in the day when women didn't have full freedom, men to some extent made up for it by giving to females in some fashion. Feminism has been battling for the inequalities that they were suffering without realistically addressing the inequalities that were in their favor.

Imagine trying to balance a game. You have two classes with unique advantages and disadvantages, but one of of those classes happens to be overall more powerful than the other. The feminist approach to solving this would be to take away all the disadvantages of the less powerful class. I'm sure you can see the problem with this.

It would be nice if there was a more organized and powerful group looking out for men to balance things out, but unfortunately, there is not. Part of the reason is that it's politically/culturally incorrect to talk about ways women are at an advantage.

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Please, no more of this. This does not help anyone. It's just as bad as /r/atheism posts. These posts are just about feeling better about your movement/non-movement by mocking the antithesis. This does nothing to refute radical feminism and does certainly not further the MRM's cause. Nobody's perfect, everyone can get caught up in the more extreme POV's of the ideologies/ways of thinking that they subscribe to. Let us be known as the group that at least tries to be reasonable and objective instead of using these quasi-slanderous tactics.

This widespread acceptance of nagging and complaining instead of reason and objective and constructive criticism is what got us all in this situation of the post-feminist era. The fact that people will listen to someone's hissy fits and emotional instead of factitious arguments ist what's wrong here.

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You can not be a Christian without believing in original sin, and it doesn't matter how liberal of a Christian you are. It is part of the central belief.

Original sin is a pivotal concept for Catholics, not all Christians, certainly not liberal Christians which most are. Also, don't "no true scotsman" on me.

I understand that extremism is what makes you radical; however, the post equates those beliefs with Christian radicalism when there is nothing radical about them. You can't be radical about original sin. You either believe in it, or you do not.

Many feminists believe in the concept of patriarchy, what makes it radical is everything added to that. Westborough Baptist believe in those things too, they are extremists because of how far they take it. This is the context you must read it. If it had not specified radicals then you would have something to complain about.

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You must be slow, how did I not address your argument. You cannot be a Christian and not accept original sin. Period. There is no wiggle room on this matter.

Because my point was never that Christians don't believe it, it was that the context of the image demands we assume a radical/fundamentalist view of the ideas it refers to.

If there was no original sin there would be no point for Christ's atonement of it. Christianity would be pointless. It doesn't matter how liberal you are..

Funny then that I have an aunt and cousin that are very serious about their Christianity (I have debated them on it several times) but do not think about original sin in this way. They see "dying for your sins" as more like current sins, not sins of the father, and as a kind of allegory for sacrifice. It doesn't matter if they are right to think this, stop playing the no true scotsman fallacy. Next you'll tell me only true Christians are Creationists, I suppose. At any rate it is irrelevant anyway to the point at hand.

Are you paying attention? There is no radical expression of original sin. It either is or isn't.

Of course there is. Westborough Baptist has a wonderfully radical interpretation. We all all disgusting and evil because original sin.

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Here is a list of scriptures WBC uses for justification. None of them refer to original sin. They are a hate mongering radical group, but their radicalism is not based on original sin.

Leviticus 20:23 - "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them."

Leviticus 26:30 - "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you."

Deuteronomy 32:19 - "And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters."

Psalm 5:5 - "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psalm 5:6 - "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."

Psalm 10:3 - "For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth."

Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psalm 53:5 - "There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Psalm 73:20 - "As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image."

Psalm 78:59 - "When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:"

Psalm 106:40 - "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."

Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Proverbs 22:14 - "The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein."

Hosea 9:15 - "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."

Zechariah 11:8 - "Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me."

Malachi 1:3 - "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Romans 9:13 - "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

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Title	Anonymous post comparing RadFems to Radical Christians.
Author	Doctor_James_Russle
Upvotes	232
Comments	274
Date	February 12, 2013 1:15 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/18diw3/anonymous-post-comparing-radfems-to-radical-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/anonymous-post-comparing-radfems-to-radical.1606113 https://theredarchive.com/post/1606113

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