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[–]McFeely_Smackup125 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why does she have a cigarette lighter in her hand?
It was a trick question, she's French.
[–]pumpkin_blumpkin30 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Probably to light cigarettes.
[–]McFeely_Smackup48 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I already said she's French.
[–]nashrome7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Reminds me of a MST3K scene: "Will it be smoking or non smoking?"
"I'm French"
"Ah, two for smoking,then"
[–]CrossHook-55 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Twist: She's really a radical feminist trying to deny her involvement to the police.
[–][deleted]3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Goddamnit Hook, I had you tagged as awesome. y u do dis to me
[–]CrossHook-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Haha my bad. She looked suspicious.
[–]OuiCrudites108 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't like the "lesbian" characterization. It would be better and more accurate to say they are man-hating supremacists. Their sexuality is not germane to the discussion.
[–]Whisper153 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Except it kind of is.
You see, there are women who are lesbians because they are primarily attracted to women.
And there are women who are lesbians for political reasons. Not because they are drawn to women, but because they wish to avoid men.
The way to spot the difference is to look for the hatred and fear. Someone who is truly homosexual has little or no reason to hate or fear the opposite sex; since they need nothing from them on a personal level, they have little vulnerability to abuse or exploitation by them.
Gay men generally can't be friendzoned, turned into orbiters, or emotionally abused by toxic women. They are immune to paternity fraud, less vulnerable to false rape accusations, and so on. And same sort of pattern holds true for lesbians.
So when I see a woman, who describes herself as a lesbian separatist, I usually suspect I'm seeing a frustrated heterosexual. A woman for whom male sexuality is an object of desire, but an object of desire that is too frightening, too threatening, too powerful and self-willed and scary, to reach out for.
And what is it that people do with objects of desire which are also threatening? People attempt to control those objects.
That's what all this business about reducing the male population and castration and so forth. It's an attempt to control the threatening object of desire. If you go and read "femitheist"s fantasies about "international castration day", it's easy to see the sexual fetishism. In fact, given some of the details, it's hard to imagine that she wasn't masturbating when she wrote it.
One can even go a step further and postulate that in some cases, all this obsession with "male violence" isn't quite unsexual, either. Sometimes, the lady doth protest too much.
[–]OuiCrudites38 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I actually agree that outlandish accusations against men often come from projecting their own fantasies. "I fantasize about rape sometimes so that means ALL MEN WANT TO RAPE ALL THE TIME."
But this is a very deep, nuanced discussion that is not touched on in the quote we are discussing.
[–]Idiopathic7732 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Spent three years living in central Florida. This description fits about 20% of the female population I met there. Bitter, damaged, petulant young women living as lesbians because "men suck" or "guys are jerks". These girls were some of the most self absorbed and entitled brats once you really got to the quick of it. They essentially swapped sexual preference as a form of temper tantrum.
[–]murphymc17 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Which, you have to wonder how the hell that works.
What i mean is, I cannot fathom being so angry with women that I'd be interested in having sex with a man. Pitching, catching, etc. No part of that is even vaguely appealing to me.
[–]Idiopathic7718 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I feel the same. However I think that the taboo surrounding lesbianism is far less pervasive. Also, the mechanics of gay sex is different. Where two women will not necessarily be doing anything to each other they would not experience with a man, a man has to be open to a different experience with another man. If you follow my meaning.
[–]murphymc11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
True.
This is bridging some deep philosophical ground for me. As far as I've been concerned, being gay isn't a choice, because who in their right mind would choose to be gay? (Edit- rereading this and it sounds, bad. To clarify I mean, who would choose to be a social pariah, heathen, etc. People as a rule don't go out of their way to make their lives unnessecarily difficult) As such, it's clearly just who they are and it can't change.
Or can it...
I gotta sit down and think for a bit.
[–]Idiopathic778 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If it helps, some "choices" have deep reasons for making them.
[–]Eryemil3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As far as I've been concerned, being gay isn't a choice, because who in their right mind would choose to be gay?
Once upon a time I might have agreed but in many developed countries these days gay men are better off than straight ones.
I think being a gay guy is pretty damn awesome and the hurdles that we do face are rapidly disappearing e.g. there's 100% legal equality in my country.
This a different view that you have probably not heard from professional victims in the gay community but it merits thinking about.
[–]murphymc3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not as surprising as you might think. I wouldn't say we have 100% equality in America, not yet. Certainly in certain regions it is 100%, but other parts haven't quite figured it out yet. Those regions however are disappearing, if not stubbornly slow.
[–]Zeddikus-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would say you do have 100% equality, you just do not have 100% privilege, not to mention, you have all sorts of protections I do not.
[–]Magnora3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What if you're already a social pariah, but being gay would at least give you someone to love... kind of my situation in highschool
[–]Drusylla1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is exactly my view on "choosing" to be gay so I understand completely what you are saying.
My favorite argument against that is "Oh really? So when did you choose to be straight?"
[–]G0VERNMENT1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because gay sex is worth it.
[–]SplashyMetal2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Speaking as a woman, I would consider touching another woman's pussy to be pretty different than what I do with men. Or wearing a strap-on.
[–]Idiopathic770 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That is you acting not being acted upon. Having your pussy touched by a woman as opposed to a man, and having a strap on used on you as opposed to a penis. Those are a bit less of a switch than a man having a penis in his backside. There is no comparable hetero experience to this. That is what I mean.
I feel a little silly debating this, but a man can do the same thing by being a top.
It does feel silly. It shouldn't but it does. I guess that the best way to say it is that womens sexual gratification is not dependent upon a penetrative act. Being on the receiving end for a man is a lot more of a switch than simply receiving from another woman is for a woman.
It does diverge from the point of the discussion though. Which is women are more likely to live an actively gay lifestyle without actually being a lesbian.
I think you might be missing the flip a woman has to make. If man penetrates and woman is penetrated, then you have to compare both sides. A man being penetrated, yes, that's different. But then you need to consider the woman penetrating - hence wearing the strap on or eating pussy, and since I'm not adventurous Like That, that would be weird for me.
Either side can just close their eyes and get head, so that doesn't count.
[–]Idiopathic771 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hey I get it. It would be odd for many women. However not AS odd. For those women who use sex toys often using a dildo on themselves is not much different than using one on another. Anyway. I do get that you personally would feel strange, but the % of women compared with the % of men who are comfortable with switching it up like this is vastly different.
[–]jd_coud91 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
scissors!
[–]Idiopathic774 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Nothing preventing a woman from scisoring with a guy. Except maybe some bruised balls.
[–]GregoryPanic4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
read this as "scissoring a guy", after reading castration day, and I was like "BUT BUT BUT D:"
I'm sorry for aiding in that imagery.
Some of us have learned to call whatever that is, a mental instability.
[–]cypher1971 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know this is late to the party, but since you're curious...
I've read that womens' sexuality is (on average) more flexible / fluid.
[–][deleted]-13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Women arent known for being logical, Am I RIte?
[–]GregoryPanic5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[–]AlexReynard1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, you are not a Rite Aid.
[–]ReverendSalem1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
More of a Walgreens.
[–][deleted]5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I completely agree!
[–]otakuman4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Exactly. There was, after all, a lesbian movement that had nothing to do with natural homosexual attraction between females. Just take a look at this article from 1972: Bunch, Charlotte. "LESBIANS IN REVOLT".
I think it's these "Lesbians" that the girl in the picture was talking about.
[–]Ruddose2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wish I could give you Reddit Gold.
[–]kinyon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Tl;dr homosexuality is a choice.
[–]AlexReynard5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
From personal observation, I don't think too many people are 100% straight or gay. Most people have a touch of the bi to them. So if you're bi, and you happen to hate one gender, it's a lot less difficult to 'switch sides' so to speak.
[–]theAnalepticAlzabo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Spot on, as always, Whisper. Good to see you back :)
[–]Falkner09-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
And there are women who are lesbians for political reasons. Not because they are drawn to women, but because they wish to avoid men.|
Not really. These are really just lesbians due tot he normal reasons; the thing is, some lesbians who become radical feminists forget that not everyone else is like them. After people stay in their minority groups with only like-minded people for long enough, some of them begin to see the world through their lens, and soem of these women who don't need men, begin to rationalize that the world would actually work without men, and that most other women only like men because they have some kind of battered wife syndrome, and they could be persuaded to "liberate" themselves from men by choosing to be lesbians, as if that were actually possible.
It's not unheard of to find some of these groups who openly advocate using abortion and testing to decrease the population of men to only a small group, existing only for the purpose of donating sperm to be donated for in vitro fertilization purposes. They get so caught up in their tiny groups, they actually believe this would happen, and that if it could happen, that people would be able to afford it.
They forget that most women do not want to live without male partners, nor could they if they wanted to, what with heterosexuality being the norm. It's kind of like a rich person who says, "why don't poor people don't just borrow money from their rich parents to start a business, instead of living off food stamps?"
Basically, it's rich lesbian privilege.
[–]macchina10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism
[–]upboats4idiots3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That one's being screen capped and bookmarked. I honestly thought you guys were joking about this.
[–]Eryemil7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You don't believe political lesbianism is a real thing? It was very prevalent in 2nd wave feminism.
[–]Falkner091 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know it's real, I just mean that it's really only from women who were lesbians to begin with for the normal reasons, and got so caught up in their tiny intellectual groups that they actually imagined they chose lesbianism because believing it comported with their worldview.
It's similar to how some right wing christians claim to have "chosen" heterosexuality, because they don't want to believe it's a natural phenomenon, as that would make more it difficult for them to maintain that it should not be allowed.
[–]Eryemil1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I get what you man. Not sure I agree but it makes sense.
[–]CrossHook0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You don't know what the fuck your talking about.
[–]parannoyedandroid5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Dude.
I agree with you on one point - people get so caught up in their small groups they believe that a majority of people could, would, or are capable of feeling the same as them.
This is what kills me about feminists; because of religion (and other things of course, it's just a prime example) 50%+ of other women DON'T GIVE A SHIT about your rights.
The VA ultrasound bill, that wanted to require women to have a transvaginal exam prior to receiving an abortion? That was backed and supported by women, not just a bunch of old men!
They are insane to think that everyone feels or could feel the same way they do. And it greatly influences how enamored and pushy they get with some of their ideals. It's crazy. Most people are not you... And most people don't care about your issues and what you believe in.
[–]notnotnotfred5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Political lesbians" actually has been a thing, historically. possibly even now. google it.
[–]creecher1191 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Their sexuality is not germane to the discussion
The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it.-Buford T. Justice
[–]Pecanpig0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think that it is as it's the basis of their supremacist views.
[–][deleted]63 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
For a moment there I thought I was in /r/MRMcirclejerk.
But seriously, I know we all find this funny, but this thread got double the karma (in less time) than the informational 15 minutes long video about misandry in education. If we want to preserve the quality of this subreddit we need to follow some etiquette.
[–]Mathnetic16 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hmm, I think easily digestible content will always be more popular.
[–]loungedmor5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Also it is easier on some devices to read texts and images then it is to play a video.
[–]Phallic7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If we want to preserve the quality of this subreddit
Why would we want to do that? It would get in the way of the demonic, lesbian, man-destroying, feminist strawman that is so much more fun to attack.
Go back to AMR ya little bitch.
[–]Cyridius6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Too late.
[–]poop_dawg5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seriously. People (especially women) are not going to take this movement seriously when a lot of front-page posts are ignorance/stereotype-filled. It's blatant hypocrisy. I feel like all too often I read something to the effect of, "I'm a man, and I don't like being stereotyped because of my gender, but let me stereotype ALL feminists negatively."
SOME feminists are like what this woman is describing. Some. Then, there are feminists like myself who are legit concerned with gender equality and will stand up against prejudice geared towards either gender. I consider myself a feminist and an MRA.
I'm really getting annoyed of seeing these ignorant feminist-hating posts at the top of the front page of this sub. You guys won me over a long time ago, but you're pushing other potential supporters away.
Remember, feminist does not always equal "feminazi."
[–]Manatee7474-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminism IS negativity. Feminism postulates that many/most/all problems faced by women are a result of their oppression by men - and you can't see the 'stereotyping because of gender' in that? Strange...
[–]poop_dawg6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, that's not what feminism is. Although I agree that the term "feminism" is inherently unequal because it's aimed towards a single gender, the movement itself stemmed from people believing that women deserve the same modern social equalities as men at a time when they didn't have them (most schools go over this in high school history. Remember the civil rights movement?). The movement was/is supposed to be geared towards equality, not towards women chopping men's balls off and taking over the world.
Yes, there are people who fuck it up and use it as an excuse for the perpetuation of misandry. There are also plenty of people who fuck up the MR movement by being misogynists. Do I judge the entire movement based on those few ignorant hang-arounds? No, I understand that obviously the movement is centered around the fair treatment and understanding of the male gender. I ask you use the same reasoning when you decide to pick and choose who you believe to be a real feminist.
If you can't be fair about it, then I recommend you check out /r/TheRedPill, because /r/mensrights is dedicated to equality, not prejudice.
edit: forgot some words
[–]CrossHook-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You clearly have no understanding of the history of feminism's sexist advocacy. Talk about what you know about, fool.
This is why you guys don't get more female supporters. Feminism was women's attempt to be equal and it's bashed all over the place here.
There are obviously people who are going to take a movement and run with it in the wrong direction, but to bash the entire movement based upon those few idiots is ludacris.
I would trust my own understanding of feminism much more over yours because I come from an objective point of view. I'm an MRA and a feminist. Not some red pill swallowing misogynist, nor a man-hating feminazi. You on the other hand, seem to have come to some very negative conclusions about this sub's sister movement, which is unfortunate. People need to realize that hatred will never beget true equality.
I thought MR activism was about men's rights... not hating feminism.
edit: more word stuff
[–]Manatee7474-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Go read/listen to GWW - she's far better at explaining why you maybe 'a little mistaken/misled' by the authorized narrative of the women's movement as taught in most classrooms.
[–]Jero793 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Never mind the fact that it's a repost from one of the top 20 all time submissions in mensrights. (even the title is ripped off)
[–]Akesgeroth3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As much as I agree, remember that this is Reddit.
[–]GregoryPanic2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
some reddiquette* even
[–][deleted]52 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Whole lot of strawmen there.
[–]bassgoonist37 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
strawomen
[–]Pecanpig14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Privilege: unchecked/[checked].
[–]hoboninja29 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What is the from?
[–]OuiCrudites20 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It is from a documentary on sex workers in France. Unfortunately, I don't have the name or a link. :(
[–][deleted]13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes I would like to see the whole video.
[–]CountVonVague-11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
huehuehuehue
[–]CrossHook23 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The problem is that so many young women feel so powerless that they hear the lesbian feminists demonizing men and they jump in on the action.
It's only once they grow up that a few of them realize how fucked up that mode of thinking is.
[–]demiurgency33 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have to disagree. I don't think powerlessness is the root of feminists hatred for men.
I believe everyone hates. It's inherent to human nature. Hate is natural. Hate is fun, especially when we can find a gang to commiserate with. As a young student, I hated jocks and Americans (I'm Canadian). As a 40 year old libertarian/mra, I now hate big-government socialists and feminists.
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about seething hatred here, or rage, but mild hatred. Hatred which is just one step up from annoyance.
It's society's role to instruct us that hate is not acceptable and to correct our naturally-formed attitudes. The best cure for hatred is respect. I got over my early hatreds by going to university, making friends, respecting them, and then learning that some of them are jocks, or Americans, or both. Then I learned I was being a dick, and corrected my attitude.
The inherent problem with feminism is it collects people who naturally hate men (which is fine), but then instead of correcting the attitude, encourages it. Feminism has canonized that the hatred of men is justified, and to be encouraged not discouraged. It professes patriarchy as unilaterally bad; patriarchy is not something to be respected and then improved upon, it is something to be smashed, torn down, rooted out. Any societal advances it has brought about are disregarded. Only its evils are to be mentioned.
Hate is not acceptable in our society, and we correct ourselves. That's human growth, and it makes us more capable, responsible members of society. Feminism, however, is a shelter for people who hate men, or maleness, or patriarchy. I'm not trying to say that all feminists hate men. I don't believe that. But I do believe feminism is a safe space for people who do hate men to not have that hatred challenged.
[–]AlexReynard8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not trying to say that all feminists hate men. I don't believe that. But I do believe feminism is a safe space for people who do hate men to not have that hatred challenged.
THIS. I need this engraved in gold on a plaque right now.
Marvelously succinct. (applause)
[–]CrossHook5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I believe everyone hates. It's inherent to human nature. Hate is natural. Hate is fun.
I think that hate has to come from a place of fear or pain. If you're not in any pain or fear of anything, then I don't think hate is fun. In fact, it seems rather pointless. Hate only becomes enjoyable when you are looking for an outlet, a scapegoat, something to hurt so you feel better about yourself.
Powerlessness may have been a misnomer. I think I'd replace it with fear. Many young women (and men) are afraid. And they don't really have a solid sense of identity. They find comfort and a sense of identity within a group like feminism that accepts them and allows them to channel their fear into hate, which is enjoyable because it gives them a sense of control, exactly what they've been lacking.
[–]demiurgency4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There's so many varied levels of hatred. For sure, both powerlessness and fear are prime motivators of hatred. But I think hatred can easily exist without either.
Let me clarify our context here. I think we're both agreeing on the following statement: (Some) feminists hate men.
We're not talking about a kind of hatred where they would actually go out and do physical harm on men. It takes an enormous amount of hatred to go that far. Sure there's Valerie Solanas who shot three men, but she's the exception, not the rule.
The kind of hatred we're discussing here lies in the realm of petty revenge, of vicious gossip. At its worst, it manifests itself as standing by (and/or encouraging) as society strips away legal protections for men, or redistributes wealth or success from men and to women. It's a very minor form of hatred. Of course, the nature of hatred is minor hatred, left unchecked, snowballs into deeper, more dangerous, hatred. And I believe it's the great role of the MHRM to prevent this from happening.
I agree with your general point that many young women fear men, and this is often the root of the hatred. I just don't believe it's a necessary part of the equation. I think hatred for those who are different is just so naturally-forming, that unless corrected by society, it can generate even without the presence of fear, or powerlessness.
[–][deleted]4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wouldn't call any of that minor.
I'm sure it looks minor if you're further up the class structure, but these 'minor' problems have wreaked total havoc on the lower, working and middle classes. Most mothers I know are single, and not simply due to lack of marriage, but because most of them drove the fathers of their children away. They pushed them out of the decision making process, refused to allow them any say in the child's upbringing, preferring to take them to court instead (and then wondering why the men take off to other states, work under the table and never give them a dime).
It's ridiculous to say that fear isn't a part of the equation. You can generate hate without fear, but you cannot generate fear without hatred. As many of them do hate us, the first part is irrelevant.
[–]demiurgency3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Be careful you're not confusing 'minor' with 'trivial'. I'm simply trying to distinguish between 'wishing some harm or disadvantage comes their way while I stand by' and 'willing to inflict direct physical harm by my own hand.' Minor hate, versus major hate.
The word I've been clumsily rooting around for the past hour is prejudice. That's what I'm trying describe with the clumsily-worded 'minor hatred'. Sorry for any confusion. 'Prejudice' says exactly what I'm trying to describe.
You can generate hate without fear, but you cannot generate fear without hatred.
Interesting, because I can be afraid of tigers, but I certainly bear no hatred or ill-will toward them. In fact, I give money to charities to keep them from going extinct. But I'm still scared of them.
[–]Actinopterygian0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But why are you afraid of tigers? Because they could fucking kill/injure you and you would probably hate that, therefore you hate tigers. Perfect logic.
[–]GregoryPanic1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, logically speaking, you would hate being killed, and being killed is a product of meeting a tiger, and therefore you would be afraid of tigers.
You're misusing the transitive property. You are afraid of tigers, and hate being killed, which is the product of meeting a tiger. You might "hate to meet a tiger", but might not say "I hate tigers"
Now, post tiger-attack, having survived, you might hate tigers. But then, you might not.
[–]Actinopterygian1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It was a joke, hence the blatantly sarcastic "perfect logic" bit at the end.
[–]doomsought3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hate is a defense mechanism- fight or flight.
When you hate something, you have to make a decision: destroy it or stop hating it. Otherwise the unaddressed hate will destroy you.
Sounds star-wars-esque.
[–]sleepykity1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Great point on the destructive powers of unaddressed hate.
I kinda agree.
I hate people who cheat in online games, I currently hate Feminists, I've noticed that I hate cheaters slightly less.
Hating on someone seems to be natural and healthy, so long as it's done in moderation.
[–]demiurgency7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Exactly, and there's some forms of hatred that are socially (and morally) acceptable. And there's many that's not.
Here in the MRHM, we often point out the following distinction. Generally, we hate feminists. But that's ok, because that's hating an ideology, and hating the fact that some people choose to embrace that ideology.
On the other side, we point out that (some) feminists hate men. And that's not ok, because you don't choose to be a man or not.
It's in our general social consensus that it is ok to hate things people are by choice, but it's not ok to hate things that people do not get to choose (sex, race, nationality). Religion happens to be an interesting intersect between these two, because you can argue that religion is chosen. You can also make a good case that it's something you're generally born into (like nationality).
But yeah. Totally ok to hate people who cheat in online games.
[–]Pecanpig2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Exactly, and there's some forms of hatred that are socially (and morally) acceptable.
It's amazing what can be gotten away with when you're doing it against a publicly hated group.
Please drop the H in MHRM, it's just redundant and I really don't support the catering to stupid people.
[–]Phrodo_00-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
what's that H? I've never seen it.
Men's human rights movement.
It's basically "bowing to the press" as it were as it's just a shitty PR move.
[–]the_leander1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Human.
Edit..
I have to say I also tend to think of it as mhrm, if only as a reminder to myself to not go down the rabbit hole so far as to end up as much an ideologue as any that posted on the radfem hub.
Hell most of the time I drop the R and just call it the Men's Movement.
[–]oneiorosgrip4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Brigaded.
[–]Pecanpig-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sweet...this reminds me of when I had my own hate movement in RuneScape. (they hated me)
Come to think of it, I've had groups of people devoted to hating me in a few games, Halo: Reach, Battlefield: Bad Company 2, CoD 4 (this one was actually called for) and CoD: WaW/5.
[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That makes me curious... I played RuneScape for a few months to see if it would be okay for my son to play. I have to wonder what possibly could have motivated a hate movement in the game. O.o
On a side note, this really makes me miss having time for MMORPGaming. :/
[–]Pecanpig-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
RuneScape is pretty much dead now, it started dying in in 2008 so I wouldn't bother with it.
Anyways, what I did was teleport into high level wilderness (there's a level which works like a 2 way teleporter) and then I would teleport-block people and use a special poison which couldn't be cured by normal means, they would either sit there for ages or they would die, all while I teleported back and lolololololold.
Also, I had a defent defence level, that always pissed off strength pures who couldn't hit me for shit.
I'm assuming you're talking about PVP areas. PVP wasn't something I very often got interested in, though when I did, defense was always the area where I put in the most developmental effort, because as you pointed out, not being able to hit the character kind of hamstrings characters who focus on attack. It leaves the defended character able to withstand attacks while whittling the attacker down. That does explain the resentment, though... a lot of younger players don't understand the difference between superior tactics and cheating, and they hate it when your strategy makes the thing they worked so hard to build useless.
I'm not greatly surprised to learn that Runescape didn't make it. My interest in it really had more to do with my son wanting to play. He lost interest, and then I migrated for a bit to Mabinogi along with my stepdaughters. Playing that was an opportunity to get to spend time with them while they were away, but that also died down when their lives became busier as adults. My character is probably still contained in the system, but I don't even have the software on my computer any more.
[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The way RuneScape worked was that there was attack which made you more accurate strength which made you hit harder and defence which made you harder to hit, strength pures would often have less than 20 attack 1 defence and 99 strength, meanwhile anyone with 50 in each (everyone and their mother) could kick a pures ass, it was freaking pathetic when I left (when Jagex gave my account away...) how on the border to the PvP zone there would always be like 50+ pures fighting each other and then running/teleporting away at low health so nobody gained anything ever, then you'd once and a while see all 50 of them sitting on the border (literally) while a mage tank sat 20 spaces off taunting them.
a lot of younger players don't understand the difference between superior tactics and cheating
At least that's understandable, but what's not is when people who are in their teens and 20's use 3rd party software, admit to cheating and admit to sucking but still do it, they're like videogame masochist trolls.
I'm not greatly surprised to learn that Runescape didn't make it.
I am, the game was doing amazingly well up until about mid 2008, then it's like the developers just died and got replaced by people from Blizzard who made it their job to make Jagex look at bad as possible.
Right - I remember that much from fighting NPC characters, mostly low level monsters as I never got very high level in game.
it was freaking pathetic when I left (when Jagex gave my account away...) how on the border to the PvP zone there would always be like 50+ pures fighting each other and then running/teleporting away at low health so nobody gained anything ever, then you'd once and a while see all 50 of them sitting on the border (literally) while a mage tank sat 20 spaces off taunting them.
This is why I was never much of a PVP player. People get kind of nuts over it, and take all of the fun out of the game.
I did hate when people used 3rd party software. Bot software for mining used to drive me nuts.
I was level 124, the max was 139...
That happens in every game, the difference is that people were particularly stupid in RuneScape.
What pissed me off about that was how Jagex sat there watching, purposefully not doing anything until credit card companies started threatening them, then they only stopped the bots and rwt until credit card companies let go of the grudge and then they let it loose again.
When I was on, I did learn that the average age of player was pretty young - that was one of the factors I needed to know, because I didn't want my then-elementary-age son playing a game mostly used by adults. That might have explained some of the behavior in RuneScape - it was childish because a significant number of the players were children.
Bots - I remember there was a function for reporting them... one that really didn't very often result in action taken against the account using it... but in some areas it was possible to trail hostile NPCs into the vicinity of the character played by the bot, and the character wouldn't defend. I used to mine where I could do that, and use hostiles to eliminate bot players so I wouldn't have to go elsewhere.
When I was on, I did learn that the average age of player was pretty young - that was one of the factors I needed to know, because I didn't want my then-elementary-age son playing a game mostly used by adults.
Actually, the average age has been something like 24 since 2004.
That might have explained some of the behavior in RuneScape - it was childish because a significant number of the players were children.
Sadly, this isn't the case.
What I did was I'd kill the bots who went to the wilderness to kill green dragons, I got to the point where instead of taking 20 minutes for a full inventory of bones (they droppes bones, hides and rarely dragon weapons, bones being worth 3 times as much as hides, and a single weapon being worth hundreds of bones) I'd be able to fill up in under a minute.
I also did a thing in 2007 where me and a whole whack of friends blocked the bots which mined "rune essence" which was used for magic runes, an expensive and used in-mass comsumable. The price for rune essence trippled overnight because bots were responsible for so much of it's production.
Downside? Bot developers found a workaround within a day.
When I was on, I did learn that the average age of player was pretty young - that was one of the factors I needed to know, because I didn't want my then-elementary-age son playing a game mostly used by adults. Actually, the average age has been something like 24 since 2004. That might have explained some of the behavior in RuneScape - it was childish because a significant number of the players were children. Sadly, this isn't the case.
That is sad. Of course, in 2004, I was 32. In 2008 when I checked out the game, I ran into a lot of pre-teens - so many that I began answering "are you really a girl" with "I'm old" to avoid potential problems.
Blocking the bots is terrific. Even though it only worked for a day, it had to piss them off.
What really blows my mind is that game developers haven't figured out how to deal with bot developers themselves. There are two ways they could affect bot-mining. They could identify the items the developers were after and temporarily price the items in-market instead of letting sellers name their price, so that no matter what, the bot developers couldn't make a profit, even if they sold a ridiculously high amount of the product. In fact, it could be set up so that the more you put on the market at once, and/or the more you put on the market in the same day or over your character's history, the less the system would permit you to charge for it. They could also, after identifying those items, set up a code that would apply a logarithm users who remain in a specific area and perform the same activity for long stretches of time, causing the likelihood of a drop to reduce based on the time factor and/or the character's growing supply. Or, they could do what Mabinogi did and start sending boss monsters to various areas every day, making announcements as the upcoming whereabouts starting a short time before the monster would appear. That provided high level players with a fun challenge, gave low level players fair warning, and kept bot developers from monopolizing popular areas.
wat :/
The bots have been gone for like 2 years now, it wasn't at all hard to stop their functioning.
It's just that Jagex purposefully allowed them to operate for years, until their hand was forced.
What really blows my mind is that game developers haven't figured out how to deal with bot developers themselves.
10,000 programmers based in India, you come up with a plan.
There are two ways they could affect bot-mining. They could identify the items the developers were after and temporarily price the items in-market instead of letting sellers name their price, so that no matter what, the bot developers couldn't make a profit, even if they sold a ridiculously high amount of the product. In fact, it could be set up so that the more you put on the market at once, and/or the more you put on the market in the same day or over your character's history, the less the system would permit you to charge for it.
That wouldn't do shit all to them, but it would piss everyone else off.
They could also, after identifying those items, set up a code that would apply a logarithm users who remain in a specific area and perform the same activity for long stretches of time, causing the likelihood of a drop to reduce based on the time factor and/or the character's growing supply.
Way easier said than done.
Or, they could do what Mabinogi did and start sending boss monsters to various areas every day, making announcements as the upcoming whereabouts starting a short time before the monster would appear.
They used to have random events, like the evil chicken would appear and attack you, it was awesome.
What they ended up doing was changing item ID's randomly every day or so, that way bots will confuse a fish for a tree and just not function properly. Sure developers can find what ID is what, but Jagex can change it again in the whole of half an hour. (Blizzard did this a decade ago...)
"I'm old" kept underage players from trying to befriend me, the absolute last thing I wanted.
Ah, I definitely misunderstood that, then. It seemed like they were a permanent problem.
What benefit were the programmers getting from their actions? Was it like Everquest, where they were selling game items and currency outside the game?
Well, the solution for players would be to buy items while the price was low... but that would only have worked if the bot users were other players, not profiteers like those in Everquest.
I have seen something similar done in other games - but since coding is not something I ever pursued I admit I have no idea what accomplishing the task would entail.
I remember the chicken - it was a new thing right about the time I switched over to Mabinogi.
The solution you describe, though - I hadn't even thought of how the bot programmers were designing their software to control the player. Of course changing item IDs would mess up the bots, and they'd have no way of getting around that.
The ignore list, my real best RS friend.
Exactly.
It caused to many problems, like ingame hyperinflation.
Bots interface with the game client, just imagine it like being Neo in that they see the code, well now you're replaced the code which had always represented the woman in the red dress with a stuffed hippo.
Yeah - I used the ignore function regularly, as well.
I wonder, if in-game problems like hyperinflation resulting from bot-hording of items could be used as a way of imparting economic lessons to kids. Obviously, in an in-game free-market, the power of supply vs demand over the price of an item would become obvious, as would the threat the development of a monopoly would present to the functionality of the market.
Yep, that would be a perfect solution.
Unfortunately it did, it taught people that there are no authorities and to be disconnected, that's why there is more of a wealth imbalance in RS than real life. I was considered to be in the top 2%with 65 million gold the vast majority of which was made from item production, there were people with >50 billion...mostly from hacking other accounts, market manipulation, flat out scamming and using that wealth to bully wealth from others.
They actually messed with it a bit for a little while, got the bots to clear out dangerous monsters and stuff.
That would be something that, were a programmer to figure out a way to do it in a simpler format with a design that could be used to teach kids economic concepts while allowing for some authoritative control by the teacher, would be marketable to schools.
Then again, the use of a MMORPG style game as a teaching tool is probably not something that can be expected of educators in a culture that treats video games of all kinds as a negative influence... so though it would be marketable, it might at first be a hard sell.
Now that is awesome. >_<
I agree, but I'm also pretty sure that this would result in a generation of amoral cutthroats who would do anything for a bit of extra cash, not a good thing.
They also got them to recognize chickens as banks, was freaking awesome.
[–]Lunatcharsky6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
many young women feel so powerless
This total emphasis on such a silly thing as anyones feelings really starts to go on my nerves here. Your own feelings are your own responsibility. It is everyones duty to control them as to avoid making them the problem of others.
The thing i hate most is...
"Many young women feel so powerless"
yeah well this should really be
"Many people who have limited social or economic status feel so powerless".
It pretty much has nothing to do with gender, but is an excellent excuse to claim victimhood where no oppression actually exists.
[–]Lunatcharsky0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
For me it's more that feelings in general are somewhat overrated in this debate. I see it as my duty to keep mine from interfering in the lives of others in a detrimental way, and really would expect the same from anyone else. Hell, I feel inadequate and whatnot from time to time too, but surely that's my problem and not that of anyone else! And to handle that is my responsibility!
[–]GregoryPanic3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is really what it boils down to in many arguments.
Feminist: BUT MY FEELINGS...
MRAs: ... have no bearing on my life.
[–]Lunatcharsky3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Works the other way just as well though.
[–]CrossHook1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminists love to claim that MRAs are talking about their "feelings" when in reality we're addressing legal injustices.
[–]Lunatcharsky1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would hate it if MRAs were actually like many feminists claim: rampant chauvinists - but so far I haven't seen any here. The insistence on gender-neutral statements about abuse seems a bit odd at first, especially since I really didn't give two shits about that until I got into the matter, but it seems to me that most of you (of us?) actually are advocating very reasonable things in a rational manner. Were there such a group as "Equalists" I'd be a member right fucking now, but you come damn close to that. I hate the reputation, but the simple factly matter is good and right.
I don't really want to enter such a heated area, or get the "reputation" for myself, especially given the associations drawn by those self-proclaimed "feminists" about MR-activists, but fuck, you're right! I actually know quite a few well emancipated women who share that notion...this new version of feminism isn't to their taste either.
Oh fuck it, I'm "in". :D
Women don't have limited social or economic status compared to men. And yet young men who feel powerless don't have a hate movement to join. Young women have feminism.
[–]rawbface19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Idiotic words. It's a sweeping overgeneralization with no substance whatsoever. It's terribly offensive to say that the entire international feminist movement is control by crazy, hysterical American lesbians, and then tout this as "wise words". This stuff has no place here.
[–]mickeymau5music10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why the fuck is this being downvoted?!
[–]rawbface12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's a circlejerk. I'll wear the downvotes proudly, because I stand by my statement.
[–]mickeymau5music7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ugh. Come on guys, we need to be better than this.
[–]CrossHook7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Who the fuck are you?
Lesbian Separatists have ALWAYS been the driving force behind all of the hateful misandric feminist ideology. To pretend that they don't exist out of some misplaced obligation to political correctness is borderline retarded and at best ignorant as fuck.
But then again you douchebags are probably just tourists from /r/feminism trying to run damage control.
[–]mickeymau5music2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Me? I've been an MRA since August.
[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Lesbian Separatists" would be a sweet band name
[–][deleted]6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They said something stupid and they got down voted.
We are actually exactly this good.
Edit: not that they are actually controlled by American lesbians (though political lesbianism is a great deal stronger than you likely think, if you've ever heard of it at all). However, defending feminism is stupid. It is undignified, and we will get no credibility for it.
Defending feminism for any reason in this sub is proof that they are feminists.
It looks like those leg beards have been brigading for the last week. Won't do shit, the cat is out of the bag, and we have decades of proof that feminism is a hate movement filled with lies. The world is waking up and your ideology is dying.
[–]Mylon3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While I think your statement is technically correct, I disagree on the grounds that the feminism many people here are likely to encounter is the kind in the quote. There's still places where traditional feminism, as in the kind actually seeking equal rights for women exists. But most of us don't live in those places.
[–]rawbface1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Don't you see that you're not furthering any discussion? You're just compartmentalizing a philosophy into meaningless groups like "traditional feminism" versus "crazy American lesbian feminism". This is what I mean by no substance. Fight against injustices, debate ideas, but don't make sweeping generalizations about the opposing side. That only serves to discredit the movement.
[–]Mylon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What if I were to use other words? "Feminism has lost its purpose. With equality achieved in nearly all areas, feminists have turned their gathered momentum to now achieve a privileged status."
It's a subtle difference, but it's mostly the same. Women want to be on top. They want men to serve them. This is unjust. But also crazy. One description attacks their actions (which people do not believe and this is why MRA is such a difficult subject), the other subject attacks their motivations which are much easier to cast doubt on. Let's stop following after them and undoing the damage they've done and let's stop their advance first.
"Men have it rough" is an incredulous statement. "Feminists are crazy" really does get the word out and in a way people understand.
You lost me at
Women want to be on top. They want men to serve them.
Especially because two sentences later, you say
the other subject attacks their motivations which are much easier to cast doubt on.
If you think shouting "Feminists are crazy" is the better way to get the word out, then you are missing the point entirely.
"I won't let my behavior be dictated by crazy, hysterical women for whom all forms of sexual intercourse, even within marriage, is rape." A woman calling American feminists crazy and describing one of their crazy acts. It got 1200 upvotes so it seems well received at least here.
Making it to the top of Reddit suggests it's quick and easy to digest and agreeable. Which makes it much more appealing for the masses than a lengthy discussion. A discussion ignored is a discussion wasted.
The idea that all forms of sexual intercourse is rape is a good topic for debate or discussion. It's an idea that should be refuted for the purpose of men's rights. There's no denying that.
But the name calling demeans the whole purpose. Look at Paul Grahams "hierarchy of disagreement" that was posted on /r/atheism a few days ago. OP's post (a repost of a repost of a repost btw) is an example of ad hominem attacks and name calling. If MRA's are to be taken seriously, the discussion should stay in the top three tiers.
Popularity has nothing to do with whether or not an argument is sound or accurate.
[–]Mylon2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I understand your concern with the ad hominem portion of the argument. However, the ad hominem is merely a distraction. "These women are crazy," ad hominem "because X" counterargument that highlights the incredulity of the claim being refuted.
This is a problem I regularly encounter with religious folks. They don't listen to reason and if I do try and form a normal argument with them that tends to give them more credence than they even deserve. Here is an article about why Richard Dawkins refuses to debate creationists. I think there are similar parallels here with feminists.
Suggesting that rape is being overly used to describe intercourse that isn't 110% desired is a tough thing to sell. Many people might even stop listening to us before we get to the evidence to back up that assertion. Thus it's important to use something attention grabbing. While academic quality debate is a great thing and can really help to shape views, the whole entire field of marketing shows that people are not rational and can be easily manipulated. And they're the ones making the decisions.
I'm sure there are parallels. But this post is the equivalent to a "CREATIONISTS ARE STUPID CRAZY RACISTS, AMIRITE?!" post on /r/atheism. It might pull from the anecdotal experiences of many, but it adds nothing to the discussion, and leaves you scratching your head on what creationism has to do with being racist (or in this case, feminism and lesbians). It boils down to a circlejerk, and besmirches the men's rights movement.
And also that part about rape at the end. MRW
[–]Magikarparparp8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm an american feminist, and I like men. Really, I think most of you are just great. Please stop trying to make us out to be unreasonable man hating bitches, it doesn't accomplish anything. If we worked together we would be able to get so much done, this kind of rhetoric just makes me sad :/
[–]mansausage8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why are you using the label "feminist" then?
I wish we would neither have feminism, nor men's rights movements, but just try and fix the biggest problems in our societies, regardless of people's genitals.
Sadly feminism is now a multi million dollar business, lobbying for causes that only benefit half the population, so MRM seems necessary to me to try and get back to a healthier balance that is more in tune with reality.
[–]spatulaboy5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ditto mra and feminists should work together.
I hate it when I see either side villify each other. Some people are concerned with the rights of women and some are concerned with the right of men. I think either position is useful and does not mean they require conflict.
It cheapens both sides when crap like this is posted.
"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." Marilyn French (her emphasis)
'My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter." Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.
"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey." Marilyn French
"All men are rapists and that's all they are." Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)
"We live, I am trying to say, in an epidemic of male violence against women." Katha Pollitt.
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.
"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used." Andrea Dworkin
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." Germaine Greer.
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.
"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity." Andrea Dworkin
source
I'm sorry dear but if it looks like a female supremacist and quacks like a female supremacist it must be a feminist.
In many ways society is strongly biased against men and mainstream feminism supports laws that make this bias worse.
To say a "real feminist" isn't a man hater is the "no true Scottsman" argument. Real feminists have been hating men in numbers too great for too long to say feminism isn't a hate group.
Or show me the feminist group that supports drafting women, that wants equal time for equal crime, that wants equality in family law, or even one that admits after differences in job categories, time in career, daily hours, and such are considered men and women make the same wages.
[–]Magikarparparp-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Jesus it's like youre hand picking comments our of R/atheism to showcase non believers. Not a single feminist I know in person or read from considers those women to be anywhere near mainstream feminism. They're fringe feminists, and as much as you would like to think otherwise, we don't share very many views at all. Dworkin is made fun of by EVERYone. They get a lot of attention because they're noisy, but we don't take them seriously.
[–][deleted]7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
French published 15 books. If no one believed her that's a whole lot of morbidly fascinated bystanders.
Pollitt published five and lectured at dozens of colleges and universities, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brooklyn College, UCLA, the University of Mississippi and Cornell.
MacKinnon published seven books... Do you see where I'm going here?
These are not fringe whackos, at least according to the feminist movement. These man haters are at the center of feminist ideology and to pretend they're not is at best disingenuous.
[–]SplashyMetal-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You guys know Dworkin died recently, right?
Ann Coulter has about ten books out, but doesn't make her an authority on anything. She's just made a career out of being opinionated and obnoxious.
[–]sleepykity4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
See, that is why the term feminism has started to lose its credibility. Instead of cooperating to isolate those wackos on the surface, deeply dangerous at core, individuals, you take offense on that list, because as a feminist you have to defend the group you have assigned to-even if it means having to distance yourself from them, you take a defensive stance against someone else you would in different context even cooperate with.
It is entirely understandable, but I think at this point we all have to rethink the fundamentals of what we consider human rights. Fragmented groups that have equal points of cooperation as well as derision with and against each other, make for a very messy situation, a mess which also leaves room for extremists on either side to exploit (as this post shows). Ps: I am a woman, grateful for the first wave of feminists, extremely side-eying second/third.
Edit for a correction (okay, two!)
[–]SplashyMetal1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'd be happy to re-identify as humanist, or whatever. Someone else said that feminism could be defined as working for the betterment of humanity, with a focus on women's rights, and men's rights have the same definition, except obviously with a focus on men. That to me sounds more complementary and mutually respectful.
Maybe that would also reduce some of the tit for tat stuff going on.
I also think I replied to the wrong person, oh well, sorry, I meant it for the parent thread:(
VAWA, The Tender Years Doctrine, The Dear Colleague Letter, and the lies about male rape and domestic violence victims and average wage across genders AREN'T FROM FUCKING FRINGE FEMINISTS YOU LYING SACK OF SHIT.
[–]InflatableTomato5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I appreciate the sentiment but honestly I feel there's little to work together on, if by feminism you mean the ideology that has its roots in patriarchy theory.
A lot of the things that the MRM stands for are in direct conflict with patriarchy theory, and with much of what has been done by the movement you claim to be part of in the name of "smashing" or defending yourselves from it. Duluth model, affirmative action, women-only shelters, etc etc... the list goes on, same old stuff that gets posted here time and time again
In fact, a big part of the MRM's objectives revolve around repairing the damage feminist lobbying and decades of patriarchy theory have - unapologetically - done to men in society. So yeah, I'm not sure how a cooperation could ever happen, unless feminism (or at least the feminism that counts, the one that gets spoon-fed in academia and the one that pushes laws) doesn't get redefined into something else first. Which I don't see happening.
That said, I too think this post is stupid and I'm surprised it received this many upvotes. At least the comments are pretty reasonable though.
Then you're better described as an egalitarian, not a feminist.
[–]Magikarparparp3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've never really agreed with that, it doesn't sit right with me for some reason. But, using your logic, would most mras be defined as egalitarian?
[–]Wordshark3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In the last poll, the wide majority of /MR readers identified as "egalitarian;" the ones who answered "MRA" were a tiny slice of the pie.
[–]Magnora2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
True, but they look at it from the mra perspective I guess. The problem is the people who have used the word "feminist" who really just want female dominance. It's ruined the word. Not too unlike how neo-conservatives ruined the word "libertarian".
Once people get the bad version of the word in their head, it's almost not worth defining yourself as that because of all the explaining and backpedaling you have to do. I don't define myself as a mra, I'm an egalitarian who is currently looking at it from a mra viewpoint, by visiting this subreddit.
[–]xLadyVirgil3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Vanilla feminism is just as moderate as any other human-rights movement, but I will say as a woman in a field where feminist theories are rather prominent (social work), it's somewhat expected of you to identify on the spectrum. Most of my classmates believe in patriarchy theory and certainly aspects can follow through with fairly logical conclusions.
I have a tough time with the title 'egalitarian' because of this, but that's basically what I am.
We'll work together as soon as you leave feminism. It is a broken ideology that no one needs, and it is emphatically not the only way to support gender equality. When you come to me as a feminist and ask me to join you, it is no different than a Christian asking me (an atheist) to join them. I cannot work towards a Christian view of morality, because my definition of morality is entirely different. And I cannot work towards a feminist view of equality, because my definition of equality is entirely different.
edit: I don't doubt your sincerity. I'm sure your olive branch is genuine. I'm not trying to sound angry, just firm. I have no problems with you as a person, just your ideology.
Do you believe in Patriarchy Theory and Male Privilege?
If so, then you hate men.
Brigading in here with you AMR feminist buddies just makes you look like a fucking liar with them upvoting you. Go fuck yourself ya braindead pathetic pieces of shit.
Did you just take horse amphetamines?
Source, please.
[–]OuiCrudites0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not a fan of this at all. News to me that lesbians hate men. Do gay men hate women too?
Feminism is the problem. Not the sexual orientation of feminists.
You missed the point, lesbians don't need men AT ALL, so they can vilify them much more easily. Like how white people can unduly vilify black people, because most of the time you can actually never interact with them if you so wish. You can cut them out of your life, and then they only exist as the imagined stereotype of them in your mind. Some lesbians hate men unabashedly, and if those men-haters actually have a significant pull on the debate surrounding ideas of feminism, then it isn't invalid to say that feminism is a man-hating movement.
This is all true only if it is true that these lesbian man-haters are controlling the conversation. Which I kind of doubt. I mean I'm sure they play a part, but I'm unsure how often these types of people are center-stage in feminism-related discussions. They certainly exist, but I have no idea how common this type of person is in the realm of feminism. I wouldn't know.
[–]SplashyMetal4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
By this logic, gay men have all the more reason to hate women. But most gay men I know self-identify as feminists, and feminists overwhelmingly support gay rights.
[–]AlexReynard0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't think it's saying lesbians are full of hate, but that the problem is people who are already so full of hate that they'd use feminism as a justification for it, and reject men out of sheer spite.
[–]Revoran5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seen this posted several times here before.
[–]FrankReynolds4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Fighting sweeping generalizations with more sweeping generalizations.
Logic: Making sense since 2000-never.
[–]dalsgaard3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I must have seen this post 10 times now.... And at least one of those times it was posted in this subreddit.
[–]wonkifier3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That she uses the word "hysterical" amuses me given it's derivation and this context.
[–]crazyex-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've honestly tried trolling with that word before, but most feminists these days are far from truly educated, so it doesn't receive the reactions I expect.
Men's Rights is lucky to have you.
[–]Ma99ie3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Sex Workers and Proud!" by Jean-Michel Carre.
[–]Raudskeggr2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
cannot "like" this enough!
[–]Vordreller2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
5th time I've seen that on Reddit so far...
[–]noodleworm2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It is bit judgemental to call them all lesbians, I have met plenty lesbians who have no problems with guys, live and let live and all.
Though I can understand this notion. Since the majority of people (and women) fit into the typical heterosexual-monogamous category, they will spend most their life either in, or pursuing intimate male-female partnerships) and so their is a lot more goals to do with equality.
I guess possibly some women are living very disconnected from men, (also possibly to do with absent fathers, or not having brothers) and as a result are sort of emotionally distanced from men, and in their efforts to look out for themselves, have unified against a sort of hive-mind evil 'patriarchy' used to encompass all control and every wrong done by any man.
[–]fia_bui2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This has been reposted here a dozen times.
[–]iMADEthis2post1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can anyone tell me what this is from and who she is please?
[–]OuiCrudites1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]xLadyVirgil2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Googling 'documentary about sex workers in France' might find you a winner. :P
[–]guysimseriously1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
/r/atheism-esque repost
[–]MRMRising1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sounds like a reasonable woman, good on her.
[–]Nicanor891 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I like her, she seems very smart.
[–]hippiewench1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hear Hear!! I am sick of women like this.
[–]BringTheStealth1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Who is she?
Does anyone have a link to the video?
[–]MrMilky200 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How many, especially middle class men degrading sissy cuckold comics have you seen on the internet ? Could it be that feminists have been funding such things ?
[–]Thepimpandthepriest-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Who is that? I like her.
[–]joshloveless-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Suddenly I want to watch strangers with candy.
[–]Jarmatus-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
even within marriage
Especially within marriage! Marriage is a construct of the patriarchy designed to oppress and marginalise women, after all.
[–]braulio092 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
maybe a sarcasm tag would've helped here
[–]Pleasureexplode-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh, us guys are so marginalized...
[–]Dankey_wAnkEy-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Shut up. Please just shut your mouth. I don't hate feminists, but people like you make me want to go gay.
[–]Phallic-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yep, modern feminists can safely be generalised as lesbians that want to destroy men.
Keep up the good work, /r/mensrights.
[–]CrossHook-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Fuck off, feminist.
[–][deleted]-27 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
a woman is saying it, so it must be true.
[–][deleted]25 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
a man is saying it isn't so it must be wrong
everyone's opinion is valid and worth hearing , friend.
[–][deleted]-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seriously?
All of that 2012 BS was valid and worth hearing about? I should take people who believe in the Loch Ness monster seriously? People who think that the entire country is secretly rules by Freemasons?
Not every opinion is valid and worth hearing. I will acknowledge that most of them only become obviously not so only after you have actually heard them, but that doesn't really change anything.
[–][deleted]-15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
everyone's opinion is valid and worth hearing
most inane thing ever said.
[–]replicult7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You sound like a radical feminist talking about men. Don't discard people's opinions so easily.
[–]Khorib10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Right? I was under the impression that the purpose of the MRM was to step up and fill the position that neo feminism decidely abandoned... Which is equality for all genders... Not to hate on women.
[–][deleted]-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I truly am sorry that you're too stupid to tell the difference between hating on women and hating on feminists.
I would kindly ask you not to hold our lack of stupidity against us.
[–]Khorib4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh please. This is in reference to "a woman is saying it, so it must be true."
[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, I do agree with you there. Stupid people are not worth listening to. Opinions based on fairy dust and unicorn piss aren't worth taking into account.
[–][deleted]8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, it's partially true regardless of who says it.
I don't know exactly why these women hate men, but they do hate men. THAT is the important part of this message. The reasons, ultimately, are irrelevant.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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