Do you think the problems with dating or hooking up are greatly exaggerated on the internet (places like PPD, or TRP)?

UhKhat · 2017-05-08T13:04:23+00:00

I just think people are more dissatisfied generally than we used to be. We see this big wide world now. We see people dating people we'd like to be with, but maybe we can't find those people ourselves. We are pickier about lots of things, potential life partners included. The internet can bring in more people who have something to complain about. Most of us like to moan about things more than we like to boast! I think a lot of people on here are social outliers to some degree. I know I am. What we think probably isn't entirely representative of 'the norm'.

IamTheWalkingMenu · 2017-05-08T13:47:52+00:00

Are we overestimated problems in the dating world because of the filtering effect of the internet? Or is my worldview not representative of the larger whole? Discuss!

Yes there are problems but the scope of them isexaggerated. Where would the fun be though always talking about how great things are?

UA_Hammer · 2017-05-08T13:17:56+00:00

It's easy to say stuff like that, but I know of atleast 3 incels in the office including one of my junior devs. One of them wore a shirt last week that said your wife: girl stick figure, my wife: horse stick figure

CRINGE

That's a man who has given up

ManSentHisOwnWay · 2017-05-08T16:23:55+00:00

Yes, I think the problems of men with regards to dating and marriage are insanely exaggerated on the internet. Like, I can't overstate how much the problems are exaggerated.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2017-05-08T12:36:39+00:00

Most of my male friends are single

Many say things like "I'd rather play videogames than frustrate myself with women"

squidracer · 2017-05-08T12:58:39+00:00

No, I noticed these problems about a decade before Reddit came around. Mostly from friends and co workers

caesarfecit · 2017-05-08T16:45:53+00:00

No.

You just didn't hear about it before.
Most people who aren't having success drop out of the SMP completely. You never see nor hear from them unless you randomly meet them in a friend-of-a-friend type sitch.
The SMP is getting worse, not better. In ten years or so, it wouldn't surprise me if the casual sex scene in a decent sized major city dropped to under 5000 very superficially pleasing people.
The reason why the SMP is getting worse is because men and women are having an even harder time relating to each other because everyone is putting up a front, or posturing. Getting authentic rejections blows, better to put on a persona and rely on superficial appearance to get attention.
Ironically, this encourages more bad game than good game, driving more people away from the SMP. Like a Gresham's Law of sex. What we are witnessing is the beginning of the end of a sane sexual marketplace. It's all about the price signaling yo.

Justapasserby557 · 2017-05-08T14:48:41+00:00

I do think the scope of the problem is wildly exaggerated.

Out of my 100s of acquaintances, friends, and coworkers, I know one person who fits the "incel" stereotype, and the reason he has trouble with women is because he almost views them as aliens and he doesn't take care of his health or hygiene very well. Not to mention he's kind of a NEET, so he rarely meets women.

Most of the people I know, including myself, are in happy, egalitarian relationships where both husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend have jobs, clean house, contribute to the relationship, etc. There are a few single people I know, but they're usually focusing on their career or education and not looking for anything atm.

As for the unhappy couples I know, it's almost always because they are not a good fit together. They got together and ignored signs of incompatibility (different views on kids, finances, communication styles) and are now unhappy because they don't know how to fix it. Those incompatibilities I listed can be dealt with if discussed early enough, but if left to be can generate resentment and fights constantly.

gabbygabretski · 2017-05-08T15:54:20+00:00

<i>" Are we overestimated problems in the dating world because of the filtering effect of the internet? Or is my worldview not representative of the larger whole? Discuss!"</i>

Yes. Wish I had a dollar for every time someone brought up the women-hooked-on-convicts assertion. "See!?! This guy is on death row and women write him love letters!" What percentage of the female population writes love letters to incarcerated psychos, I wonder? If I were to take a trip to the pokey tomorrow during visitors hours would I see the beautiful people loitering about, taking turns for a conjugal visit? And the retort: "Oh! But there's no comparison...no men at all do that for female convicts!" Really? Casey Anthony had a bunch of marriage proposals from total strangers. But it's not just that way in the sphere. The Internet has done that for EVERYTHING. There's just too much info at our fingertips, unfiltered and largely untrue (and people make all kinds of stuff up...memories can be very selective).

EliteSpartanRanger · 2017-05-08T16:36:24+00:00

Definitely overestimated.

I'm in one of the nerdiest groups and most people there have girlfriends who are looks matched with them. It's not like a skinny dude with a 500 pound woman.

philomexa · 2017-05-08T16:59:18+00:00

I think its greatly overstated. But I'm coming it at from the position of an attractive married woman who's social circle is compromised of happy-ish looks-matched couples (except for two people; my dykey bi work friend who single by choice, and my childhood bro-friend who is single because of location).

I can't speak to the struggles of the anxious singles in college and post college, nor can I speak to the struggles of the post divorce set.

BiologyFreac · 2017-05-08T17:57:32+00:00

The Red Pill thinks the average guy is some weak, clueless loser who lets anyone walk over him and has zero experience with the opposite sex.

That may be true for the average Red Piller, but definitely not for a random dude on the street.

Then again, most people come for dating advice out of desperation, so you naturally aren't going to see a whole lot of the "I'm in a happy relationship/have a healthy sex life, here are some tips" crowd.

SkinnySweaty · 2017-05-08T15:16:35+00:00

And that's how you get TRP, who thinks they are talking about structural problems in the dating market, while in reality, these problems only reflect the experiences of a very tiny percentage of men.

Yep.

Red Pill's great fight is with their own ego. They desperately want to believe that their inability to have success in the SMP is not their fault and will go to great lengths to attack others (Feminism, gynocentrism, Chad, Hypergamy, etc) to preserve their ego.

It holds them back.

Alth12 · 2017-05-08T16:28:06+00:00

I think a lot of TRPs thoughts come from online dating. Have to remember most of the people who succeed at dating never find TRP, and the ones who read TRP stuff and apply it don't complain or post on the sub much. Most of the bloggers themselves aren't complaining about it, outside of ROK, but even a lot of TRPers think ROK is a whiny misogynistic shithole. In fact I'd read a lot of TRP stuff and the only place I see the obsession with Chad is on the sub. I don't think I've ever seen him mentioned anywhere else.

That just leaves a lot of the people who complain about it, the out of shape people with no social life who have read all the game books but apply none of it. That's I'd say a significant proportion of the sub. Their sole interaction in the dating arena is Tinder, and they judge dating and women/men based on that, and think it's hard on the back of it. Women are far pickier on tinder than in real life, if she's average she can get at least 4-5 matches per 10 swipes. That breeds higher standards. Doesn't mean she won't go with you if you met in the street.

That's where I think the disconnect is in a lot of TRP stuff.

doochie123 · 2017-05-08T16:29:14+00:00

Yes, very much so. The only "incels" I know irl are introverted guys who don't try and have high standards. Literally every other dude I know gets in and out of relationships easily.

LittleWindowpane · 2017-05-09T15:56:56+00:00

Twenty years ago, you were mostly confined to your own social circle. If 0.1% of men had real struggles with dating, chances were you would never know a man who struggled.

It's more like four or five percent, tops; these dudes cluster in 'sperg-heavy occupations like software engineer, mathematician, IT guy, or electrical engineer. If you're not hanging around math majors, you won't see these dudes, and so you won't even know the problem exists.

cranium123_ · 2017-05-08T13:16:49+00:00

My unattractive friends are single, my above average friends have GFs less attractive than them. Attractive guys don't associate with me so can't tell about that.

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GregariousWolf · 2017-05-08T13:57:07+00:00

Yes and no.

Yes, because there is a lot of sensationalism on the internet.

And no, because the mating dance has inspired art and literature since time immemorial.

despisedlove2 · 2017-05-08T17:09:07+00:00

I think it is overblown. Dating is relatively uncomplicated.

The problems lie in relationships now as women have become unreasonably self centered, and misandrist.

Pope_Lucious · 2017-05-08T18:41:45+00:00

Nah. 45% divorce rate where women initiate 70-30 over a population of MILLIONS! If anything, the problem is understated.

80_20 · 2017-05-08T22:13:05+00:00

your social circle is the very definition of survivorship bias (a subsection of selection bias). You are looking at the people around you, who are like you and saying, everything is fine!

For example if we take a subset of people, say The New York Mets. So we look at the Mets and we say, look at all my friends on the New York Mets, they are all doing okay, they have a house, health insurance. Sure some guys make 10 mil a year and some make 200k but they are okay.

Now what does that say about everyone in the stadium? Does that mean everyone in the stadium have 200k a year job, a house, a car, etc? Of course not, so when you say your friends are doing fine, that is because your friends are like the Mets, they are like you. Even the people you might see around the stadium say nothing about the people outside the stadium who couldn't even afford a ticket to the game.

Just because you never see them, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

That's why we need to use data like this, 40 million people rating each other. It gives the true picture of what is actually going on.

GroovyEFS · 2017-05-08T13:27:52+00:00

Yes absolutely. Also remember that the kind of people who hang out on PPD and will answer this question are much more likely to have experienced these things than the general population. This also includes their social circle because birds of a feather flock together and all that.

Most guys I know IRL are in LTRs. At uni there were both relationships and hookups all over the place. The only guy I know who has real trouble has it because of chronic pain, but even he isn't batshit like /r/incels.

alreadyredschool · 2017-05-08T12:52:56+00:00

Even my female friends complain and can't get what they want. It takes quite a long time until the males end their dry spells or find a gf. The only two people who are doing fine are one friend who is in a great relationship, a blond bombshell slut and me. She gets exactly what she wants but could demand so much more. I sadly know no guy anymore that manages to get laid every weekend with a new girl. Even semi famous athletes struggle.

reepbot · 2017-05-08T13:19:01+00:00

No, not at all for someone like me.

BPremium · 2017-05-08T13:29:00+00:00

I think its the online dating phenomenon that exacerbates the pickiness problem and places like RP/PPD/ any genderwars type place reports on it, from their own perspective. It may seem exaggerated, but its closer to the truth now due to the excessive demands women can make due to OLD/Tinder.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-05-08T14:15:44+00:00

I think dating is harder than people say, but things like hypergamy aren't the reasons why, once you understand it. To me the reason is that changing is so hard.

Cyrusk4 · 2017-05-08T18:52:13+00:00

TRP's most exaggerated about relationships. Not every woman is obsessed with hypergamy, out to steal your sperm, take your alimony money and bang Chad the poolboy.

The problem is that because the TRP philosophy considers love, kindness, empathy, sharing, to be "weak blue pill traits" - these guys naturally attract women who line up with them. Like attracts like. A TRPer is much more likely to end up with a canniving, materialistic woman.

Of course, in the USA women do rip men to shreds, and many innocent men DO fall prey to family courts and predatory women. But it's no reason to become paranoid-delusional. Just refine your standards and become better at judging the quality of people in your life. And work on yourself because we do attract similar people. If you're materialistic and a steely-eyed realist, you're going to attract ruthless women.

TRP makes a lot more sense regarding the sexual marketplace and attraction. At least in large American cities, there are huge problems. It really is a 10% factor of men who bang the 90% of women. In LA it's just like TRP claims--you need to be an alpha cock with status, money, height and chiseled good looks to get a lot of pussy.

What TRP forgets is that a lot of this is on the women. It's highly insecure, materialistic women obsessed with status and chasing after a peer-reinforced standard who demand these standards. It leaves behind a zombie horde of horny guys swiping right to every girl on Tinder, and even average looking Tinder women getting 4,000, 5,000+ likes.

Since it's this giant buyer's market for women and a desert for regular men, it's no surprise that this climate is where PUA, TRP, etc incubated.

The trick, however, is to go to any smaller or friendlier city. Or any foreign country with healthier standards. Big coastal cities (LA, Seattle, San Diego, etc) are the worst places for men to meet women because of the above reasons. Yet, in many other places all this bullshit disappears. This means, to me, it's less hard-wired biology like TRP thinks and it's more peer reinforced behavior and what happens when people see the dating market as the stock market and they're constantly trying to up their wealth and status.

Returnofthemack3 · 2017-05-08T23:30:23+00:00

not really. I know quite a few guys that struggle tbh. I'm not talking incel types either. Far from it actually. It's very apparent to me that there is a subset of guys I know that have an easy time of it for a lot of the obvious reasons, then there's a subset that have some success in dating but they're not players so they're really trying to snipe an LTR/future wife (Most of these guys lack abundance mentality or solid game, but are attractive/pleasant enough to date girls from time to time of varying quality and sometimes have a very occaisonal hook up), and then there's the subset of guys that are getting next to nothing for long stretches at a time. The latter group are usually lacking in SMV due to a lack of a solid career, average to below average looks (sometimes it's due to weight, sometimes it's not, it varies), and an utter lack of game/confidence, or a mixture of all 3. So it's obvious as to why they're lacking in success but that doesnt' make it easier for any of them. They're basically non existent as far as the SMP is concerned.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the pareto principle, or a distrubtion like it, honestly makes sense to me based on my lived experience. The first I heard about it in that context wasn't from red pill funnily enough, it was from a frustrated philosophy major friend I had in college way back when. He is as blue pill as they come but even he could see that there is a subset of men doing the majority of the fucking for the least amount of effort.

blametheboogie · 2017-05-09T00:02:14+00:00

My experience is that when people get older the married people associate mostly with other married people and the perpetual single people end up hanging out together.

When married people think of their peer group everyone is doing OK relationship wise so they assume that most everyone else is in a similar situation. Most of the unhappy people are somewhat invisible to them unless they are a very close friend or relative. The perpetual singles probably think that there are more of them than there actually are too.

I think that there are some problems and I'm not sure if things are better or worse than they used to be but the unsuccessful people now have a voice that they didn't have before so we hear about it more.

What I see is that 25% are really happy 25% are in bad relationships or perpetually single and the remaining 50% experience some of each situation or are just getting by neither really happy nor unhappy over the long term.

Transmigratory · 2017-05-09T00:26:07+00:00

First of all, if you're going to assume your personal experiences encapsulates all intricacies of this topic: your worldview is a far cry from a representative. If not, you're cool

As for the exaggeration: yes, the problems are exaggerated on the internet. However, the reverse is true too, they are also understated.

Example: men's plight with online dating will either be exaggerated or be told that those problems don't actually exist. Women, same- but hardly seen since most women-centric topics are the critics being defensive.

There's no middle ground.

Christian_Kong · 2017-05-09T01:17:39+00:00

I can only say maybe for clickbait articles. I've seen plenty of things that would make good TRP examples, but if I had not seen it with my own eyes I would think there is a good chance it was made up. I am sure there has to be a good amount of made up stuff from both sides on the PPD/TRP/TBP forums.

Centurion53 · 2017-05-09T03:20:47+00:00

Well I would say that the problems are a little more exaggerated on the internet cause lets be honest its full of idiots that spew their idiocy(sadly, including myself in more occasions than necessary).

breakfasttopiates · 2017-05-09T03:43:47+00:00

I don't think this type of content would blossom so much if it were merely a case of a few dudes making mountains out of mole hills.

I have no clue about the dating world being married to my highschool sweetheart and all. But I've definitely felt and seen enough bullshit feminism to know there's a strong anti-masculinity and anti-femininity agenda going on in the western world its quite obvious to me.

Extrapolating from that one fact its not hard to believe other millennial men are having problems getting what they want. And if women really are getting unhappier as the years go on it explains that too

slavicgypsygirl · 2017-05-10T01:23:27+00:00

I personally cant relate to most dating & hook up problems people have online.

That doesn't mean they don't exist tho.

Sunhappy_DC · 2017-05-08T12:39:13+00:00

No, because if you took every anecdote from every person you met today, you'll probably lean towards the same end.

AnonymousCat7 · 2017-05-08T13:06:17+00:00

f you were to read some posts here, you'd believe that 60% of men are only able to have sex with very unattractive

80% actually.

I have a few close friends and they're all doing fine.

Lies.

Fact is, like 90% of guys from my old high school have very little problems getting relationships and they seem quite happy with it.

Attractive people solipsism.

A good example is the "marriage is bad for men" argument. Users are happy to point me to hundreds of examples on the internet of marriage going horribly wrong for men. However, there are millions of marriages every year. Of course some will fail and some of those will be very unfair to men. And those stories tend to concentrate in a very specific part of the internet, thus giving the illusion of a structural problem.

Good luck getting divorce raped.

HoxHound · 2017-05-08T14:19:27+00:00

Fact is, like 90% of guys from my old high school have very little problems getting relationships and they seem quite happy with it.

This just shows you're disconnected from reality.

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