Why aren't Christian men masculine?

CrazyTom54 · 2017-03-23T14:22:34+00:00

Genuine masculinity forces women to respect men because NOT doing so could endanger them, frankly.

What the hell does this even mean? Genuine respect for a men is inspired by the fear for what... physical violence or something? How could my or any men's masculinity endanger you?

And I honestly don't see any relationship between Christianity, or any other religion, and how masculine someone is. In my neck of the woods Muslim men are often seen as being overly masculine and more traditionally masculine than the white (largely atheist) men living here and Islam literally means submission for fuck's sake. So submission to God doesn't have jack-shit to do with how masculine somebody is.

I think this has purely to do with your idea of masculinity and the Christian men in your environment not living up to that idea. It's myopic to think that other women conceive of masculinity just as you do and therefore don't really respect or desire the men you see as lacking in masculinity.

EchoZeroEleven · 2017-03-23T14:21:26+00:00

It's less the religion and more church culture. Masculinity isn't really promoted there, though there have been movements that did focus on it, such as muscular Christianity, or more recently Fight Church.

These are not so popular though, and masculine men in church are difficult to find. At least in white churches, can't say for other race demographics.

says_harsh_things · 2017-03-23T14:25:29+00:00

I could have a fucking field day with this.

Christian men are not masculine because they are specifically trained, taught and instructed not to be masculine. They are specifically taught that "nurturing, protective, understanding, responsible --- but not masculine" are sexually attractive traits - that these traits are tingle inducing panty wetters and cause ladyboners. This is literally EVERYWHERE in white Christian subcultures (don't know anything about the black Christian subculture, where there at least appears to be more of an emphasis on authentic masculinity).

They're like this because that's what they're taught to be. I found an article that advocates this. I'll post it here if I can relocate it.

DemonConsulting · 2017-03-23T14:20:26+00:00

I think this is more cultural/geographical than religious. Many western European/ American men are more, let's say, domesticated than men from other more "macho"/ masculine cultures and Western Europe + USA happen to be Christian while the middle east for example is not. However Eastern Europe and Russia for example, most men are also Christians but they are much more traditionally masculine and patriarchal, at least from what I have seen. Of course these countries come with their own sets of problems like rampant alcoholism and lack of jobs which makes these men less desirable but they are by no means the stereotypical "good christian boys" from the mid west or something. Yet they are very much Christians.

As for the western christians getting married, religion is what obligates them to marry and also keeps them together with the whole respect and till death do us part thing. However I don't see how Islam for example is much different in telling men to be humble before god and having god be this largest masculine entity that demands submission - it's just that men have to respect god and women have to respect men, which is the same in the bible really. The diferences here really are mostly cultural imo. Also many countries in east Asia like Japan, ~~Korea~~ (I apologize, TIL Koreans are ~~sexually aggressive muscle hunks~~ 30% Christian) or China famously have the least openly aggresive/masculine men and they aren't christians either. Instead their culture teaches them to be polite to the point of being a bit submissive, similar to how sunday school can teach that in the west.

Edit: I completely forgot about the whole of south and central america. They are far more devout Catholic Christians than the average Western European and they appear to be famously masculine and attractive too

wtknight · 2017-03-23T14:33:05+00:00

It's because they don't have to be masculine. The whole idea behind religion is that God is in control. With masculinity, it's the idea that you are in control. They kind of conflict a bit.

That being said, I knew masculine guys in my church, but it was more of a lifestyle and less of a doctrine.

CrazyTom54 · 2017-03-23T14:35:16+00:00

In fact, I think the very concept of Christian male submission to God inhibits natural masculinity -- sexuality, dominance, control -- and makes men feel guilty and sinful for acting out on these things.

I wouldn't say that is exactly what masculinity is. Masculinity is a possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men.

I have found men who are nurturing, protective, understanding, responsible

Then they are naturally masculine. Masculinity isn't just about sexuality, dominance, or control. A quick google search says that masculinity is exactly what I defined it as: "a possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men."

Therefore, the men you saw that are nurturing, protective, understanding, and responsible are also masculine, because those are qualities that are sometimes associated with masculinity. Men are traditionally seen as dominating and sexual, yes. However, men are also sometimes traditionally seen as nurturing and protective to their children as well as responsible.

A man who isn't protective isn't seen as masculine. He's seen as a coward or a jerk. A man who isn't responsible, but fits with "sexuality, dominance, and control" isn't masculine. He's seen as a child who refuses to own up to his own mistakes and accept the consequences.

Just because a man isn't full of sexuality, dominance, and control doesn't mean that they aren't naturally masculine. That just means that they might have control over those particular aspects. I'd say the guys who are more responsible, protective, nurturing, and understanding are more naturally masculine, because they are clearly more mature and capable of controlling their urges.

the_calibre_cat · 2017-03-23T14:27:06+00:00

In my experience, there are two kinds of Christian man - either the very nurturing/understanding/responsible, or the masculine. The masculine ones slay pussy, but the nurturing/understanding/responsible ones are the betas that are delighted once they land a good Christian girl, and they go on and live happily ever after.

Alth12 · 2017-03-23T15:25:47+00:00

Well, modern Christianity as we know it was put together by a regime that wanted good little soldiers, meek men and meek women who would never rise up and defend themselves.

There is a huge disconnect between the hard nosed, actually very masculine, yet kind, Christianity of its first 3-4 hundred years, and the Christianity that came after Constantine.

Christianity is about allegiance and control. Control of society, telling people what to think, and allegiance to your government, who always styles itself as the representative of "God" or ruling through some divine providence.

RobotPartsCorp · 2017-03-23T16:14:25+00:00

I grew up in a patriarchal fundamentalist christian sect. I would say my observations are the opposite of yours. Men were domineering and protective as well as controlling. Women were told to be quiet and men were the head of the households who demanded respect.

I am not religious but any means but your post is just silly. I find this obsession with masculinity rather pathetic.

says_harsh_things · 2017-03-23T14:34:13+00:00

Church culture is based on a collective group of people getting together and trying to temper natural desire for a better overall result and quality of life.

One man, one woman, stop looking at others keeps everybody rowing in the same direction.

Men who benefit from this setup are not men that would benefit from being at the top level of a hedonistic culture. They would be at the bottom.

EliteSpartanRanger · 2017-03-23T15:36:23+00:00

I have to disagree. If you go down south there are a lot of masculine, chiseled men with stubble chopping wood and building cabins and looking like country singers. A lot of those guys are Christians.

MamaTR · 2017-03-23T15:54:40+00:00

Genuine masculinity forces women to respect men because NOT doing so could endanger them, frankly.

Thats not respect, thats fear and intimidation.

ohnoitsbroken · 2017-03-23T16:04:33+00:00

I think you have a really narrow, young, definition of masculinity. Masculinity isn't just grabbing some swords and go pillage a village to assert your dominance. There's a lot of latent and subtle masculine traits that aren't obviously apparent but nevertheless are masculine, and especially, the kind of masculine that women look for in men, rather than what men admire about other men.

Most religious men are (or are encouraged to be) leaders of their household, the emotional rocks of their partnership, and the quiet sacrificers.

When you think about it, most religious women aren't interested in fucking around at clubs, so they're not interested in the pound-your-chest type of masculinity, they're looking at the type of masculinity that is suitable for raising families.

breakfasttopiates · 2017-03-23T16:05:52+00:00

That doesnt line up from what I've experience but I'm from the south.

Christian men are everywhere and there's a ton of masculine ones in the swamps down here.

I find Atheists and leftists to be the least masculine people by far.

crankypants15 · 2017-03-23T15:57:07+00:00

Bias. People tend to remember only this certain type for some reason. They don't remember the hard-working types who work on a farm, or the guys who are firefighters, because they don't talk about their job much.

Not sure what to call this. Memory bias?

[deleted] · 2017-03-23T16:25:49+00:00

Well, it didnt inhibit masculinity during the crusades. Why do you think that is.

cxj · 2017-03-23T19:33:09+00:00

This is a really great question and a topic I considered making lol. My observation of modern Christian churches is that it has a lot of fine af young girls with wife able qualities and a lot of very pretty guys with high pitched voices and weak handshakes who do really well in school. The girls pair off fairly early on with these dudes because that's who's available. I remember meeting my 2nd cousins husband at their wedding and thinking he is tall and good looking but I could break him in two and I'm not even hard lol. I was thinking he looked like a good catch on paper but I wonder if he really got her blood running? Then again she is very sheltered and masculine men might just scare her lol.

Anarchkitty · 2017-03-23T21:30:34+00:00

Genuine masculinity forces women to respect men because NOT doing so could endanger them, frankly.

I think you have confused fear for respect.

And isn't "self control" one of the most commonly agreed on masculine traits? A man with self control will always be less dangerous than a man without regardless of any other factors.

midnightvulpine · 2017-03-23T23:05:33+00:00

I think you need to rethink your concept of masculinity. Because physical threat is hardly the way to build a proper relationship. Power through fear rarely comes to great things. Those who wield it rarely last long.

dicklord_airplane · 2017-03-24T16:12:50+00:00

church life actively beats down any natural male tendencies and makes men feel ashamed of their sexual desire for women. the christian communities that i'm familiar with are progressive and extremely focused on appealing to the feminine, so they tend to brow beat men into "beta" mindsets where they are ashamed of traditional masculinity. it's no wonder that men are leaving the faith and that the remaining male church-goers are self-flagellating guys who needs serious help with their self-esteem.

SetConsumes · 2017-03-23T14:12:13+00:00

Because religion is for betas who need a book to guide them through life. The kind of guys you're after already have a direction in life without having to look to others to provide it.

prodigy2throw · 2017-03-23T14:13:56+00:00

Because they have mental illness. That ain't alpha b

AutoModerator · 2017-03-23T14:01:50+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

MrB0gus · 2017-03-23T14:08:17+00:00

Read Nietzsche criticism of Christianity and Slave Morality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality

http://oldweb.sbc.edu/sites/default/files/Honors/Moosa_0.pdf

[deleted] · 2017-03-23T15:33:06+00:00

My step dad is Christian and he's really masculine. A lot of my friends are super masculine and Christian. I think if anything Christian men are more masculine.

[deleted] · 2017-03-23T15:43:06+00:00

Too much loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek combined with world wars killing the bloodlines of the masculine ones

SetConsumes · 2017-03-23T15:43:34+00:00

So, maybe this is biased from my experience, but I have never found masculine men in any Christian community or church. I have found men who are nurturing, protective, understanding, responsible --- but not masculine. Not naturally masculine anyway. In fact, I think the very concept of Christian male submission to God inhibits natural masculinity -- sexuality, dominance, control -- and makes men feel guilty and sinful for acting out on these things.

The issue does not lie with submitting to a God, rather submitting to a God that emasculates men.

There are Gods that promote a man to be more masculine, it all depends on what the God values.

Christianity has men hate and feel sinful for their very nature.

Their selfish egotistical nature is hated, their inherent drive for power is hated, their sexuality and lust is hated, their anger and violence is hated.

Man himself is blamed for The Fall, for Original Sin, for Jesus having to die.

You quickly have a man who hates the very things that enable a man to be powerful, and then also feels guilty for requiring the son of God to die for himself.

90%+ of men that are at all true Christians cannot overcome the self hatred and guilt for being a man and become strong, confident, superior, capable men. Though the ones that manage to tend to be quite impressive, and typically don't think about the demonization of their nature and responsibility for Original Sin.

Christianity creates and protects the weak and the meek, they make perfect pawns for rulers and the elite capitalists.

despisedlove2 · 2017-03-23T15:56:41+00:00

I am not Christian. However, I think that Christianity comes in different flavors, given how internally contentious its original creeds are. Almost as bad as Islam.

Given that prior to the Reformation, Christianity was almost as vicious to non Christians as Islam has always been to non Muslims, I doubt you will find any shortage of more vigorous ways of dominating the world, and by extension the specific form of dark triad masculinity you are alluding to.

Christianity was spread via the sword for a long time, much like Islam. The internal reform of Christianity merely let more constructive forms of masculinity to come forth and take over.

This also is an example of why you shouldn't base male behavior on the basis of what the amoral half of humanity, females, likes. If you go by their preferences, you would have never had civilization.

HitchensTwoPointOh · 2017-03-23T16:08:41+00:00

Religion I never general makes you into a little bitch by definition- subservience to sky man of your choosing is inherently not masculine. Also as someone who was deeeeply involved in church activities in multiple different churches I can safely say they are straight up beta male factories.

JackGetsIt · 2017-03-23T16:21:51+00:00

Masculinity of all types have been under-siege in this country for 40 plus years. Media, government, modern feminism, feminine nature, blue-pill men, all actively and passive seek to criminalize, suppress and marginalize masculine behavior.

Religion itself is not anti-masculine. It all depends on how the culture and the institutions interpret and carry out that doctrine.

ppdthrowawai · 2017-03-23T16:42:56+00:00

Depends on the environment where you live. I've seen some extremely masculine and even macho country boys who are a lot better Christians than I am.

[deleted] · 2017-03-23T17:52:18+00:00

Society elevates the behaviors in men that more society ahead, e.g. Mission Focus.

Unfortunately for men, self sacrifice and protecting others from danger was the best way to ensure that. Now that there's no enemy hoarde, paying for her relative safety is the current dogma of the church.

That, and only divorced women and former sluts fill the pews, so to keep the flock healthy, they cater to their needs

goatismycopilot · 2017-03-23T18:22:24+00:00

I live in Tennessee where most people would publicly identify as Christian and a high percentage regularly attend service and have varying levels of additional church activity. Some men just go to humor their wives. It kind of breaks down on location, class, and personality. Most of the rural Christian dudes exude a lot of traditional masculine traits. They fix stuff, they hunt, they are often individualistic and dislike the cultural shift that has occurred over the last 30-50 years. The suburban Christian guys seem like any other guys. The black Christian guys are usually most vocal about their faith and have a very narrow view of roles.

Subway_Bernie_Goetz · 2017-03-23T19:36:39+00:00

Because they think it's wrong. They've internalized some weird ideas about sexuality, gender, etc. They seem to think that if you're not an effete, overly-soft cream puff, then you're "abusive" or "controlling."

Christians are conservative. Which means they conserve the dumb ideas from 50 years ago about how men should be and what women want. There's tons of passages that go against their faggoty conception of masculinity and sex but when you point those passages out to them they just explain them away as a bad translation from the original text.

Also, church has been feminized. The only men who wouldn't be repulsed by that kind of atmosphere are girly men. It's basically just a part of the emotional self-discovery/ self-help industry along with Eat Pray Love and anything else Oprah endorses. 95% of Christian book are just piles of estrogen and saccharine inanity. Basically, church is a product for women. You find girly men there just like you find girly men shopping at Hobby Lobby or Bath and Body Works or watching Grey's Anatomy.

[deleted] · 2017-03-23T21:43:17+00:00

They sit in a room and another guy reads a book at them about being nice and feeling bad for everything. There's no edge or toughness to it.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-03-24T01:24:47+00:00

I'd half-agree, half-disagree with you.

Traditional masculinity contains two components - a dominant component and a submissive one. Men are encouraged to submit to 'more alpha' men, their fathers have automatic alpha status (which I define as the ability to inflict social emasculation on one's underlings) over them, and part of becoming a "real man" is gaining the father's approval/endorsement (the same can be provided by peer validation and feminine validation too). Look at the military - the manliest institution in the world - where the soldiers are technically under the command of the officers but soldiers are thought of as more manly. Masculinity has always been altruistic and has always compelled men to serve something 'greater than themselves' in order to prove themselves 'real men' to society.

As for Christianity, I certainly agree Christianity's morality of meekness, submissiveness, obedience, hope and charity etc. is very much opposed to the traditional heroic/masculine virtues we saw in Pagan European civilization (this isn't new - Nietzsche made the same argument). That said, the Passion (the event) is also an example of Macho Masochism taken to a pretty extreme degree. Indeed, Christianity's entire central archetype of the martyr-hero who gives his own life for the sake of others is very emblematic of traditional Male Disposability.

In addition, the traits you label as non-masculine - protective and responsible - are traits which have been considered part of the traditional male role across civilizations (including non-Christian ones) for millennia. Sure, these traits are part of the "white knight" rather than "rabid fuckbeast" part of the traditional concept of masculinity, but both components have always been regarded as masculine. Your conception of masculinity is overly narrow, frankly - masculinity has always demanded both dominance and submission, has always been both the rabid fuckbeast and the white knight. Basically you're defining "masculine" in terms of "that subset of masculine traits which result in one having a substantial chance to Crush Puss" but this is only one component of the whole.

FairlyNaive · 2017-03-24T07:21:39+00:00

You have looked in the wrong places

SmeggingRight · 2017-03-24T11:13:41+00:00

Genuine masculinity forces women to respect men because NOT doing so could endanger them, frankly

What kind of respect are we speaking? If you mean, women pay attention because they're about to get hurt, well yeah. But then, men will also pay close attention to someone who's about to hurt them.

But is that 'genuine masculinity'?

I don't see women respecting masculine men just because they're masculine tho'

crush-it-snort-it · 2017-03-24T17:55:26+00:00

Religion beats the masculinity out of men because Christianity and most religions are based on the fear of being cucked. Ironic because the "virgin mary" story reeks of cucking.

Let me explain, they dont want you to have extra marital sex, because that could lead to cucking, they dont want you to lust thy neighbors wife, or steal, etc. Basically they tell you not to cuck someone else, and in doign so, if everyone follows that rule, no one will be cucked.

That is why christians HATE atheists, they promote behavior that allows cheating and shit to happen. They dont want any sex outside of marriage because they are all DEATHLY AFRAID OF BEING THE FATHER OF JESUS IN THAT VIRGIN MARY STORY LOLOLOL

Superfluous_Toast · 2017-03-27T04:21:55+00:00

Speaking for myself, I don't find men who believe in an invisible sky daddy attractive.

sunkindonut149 · 2017-03-29T16:40:36+00:00

Macho men don't go to church, they only pray to Brodin, God of Gainz.

marianasentmenudes · 2017-04-01T18:48:39+00:00

Because modern Christianity is inherently suicidal.

Title	Why aren't Christian men masculine?
Author	Sunhappy_DC
Upvotes	12
Comments	219
Date	March 23, 2017 2:01 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6120si/why_arent_christian_men_masculine/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-arent-christian-men-masculine.269325 https://theredarchive.com/post/269325

Comments