CMV: It is a myth that society is anti-male and anti-masculinity

Sid_Insidious · 2020-05-03T00:26:06+00:00

5) Women are getting 60% of more of University Degrees

6) Young women are out-earning their male counterparts in the workplace. Oh where oh where have that wage gap screeching gone?

8) Despite doing better then men, women are still getting preferential hiring due to sexist "affirmative action" policies. We no longer hire the most qualified person for the job

9) Women live longer than men.

10) Women work fewer hours than men, and get to have a more balanced life with work and family. (Yeah, that's a privilege, actually).

11) Men still do the dirties, nastiest and most dangerous jobs.

We can cherry pick all day and night. Men and women face different struggles and challenges in society. "Equal opportunity" will never make us "the same" and since feminism can't wrap it's pretty little head around that concept, there's no point in even discussing it.

Whisper · 2020-05-03T05:54:06+00:00

So, if the perception of victimhood isn't empowering for women, why are you clutching at it so eagerly?

Cobra_x30 · 2020-05-03T00:11:59+00:00

When people talk about society hating men, it comes down to shit that actually matters. Public schools for example are anti-male and routinely punish male behavior. When men struggling to pursue higher educations it’s deemed as a good thing but when woman aren’t going into STEM at the same rate as men its suddenly a bad thing that demands immoderate action.

Regarding Hollywood, its because women like to see fit shirtless men.

Hiring mostly affects your age bracket. Younger women have Ann easier time getting hired whereas older men tend to be hired over older women.

Barely-moral · 2020-05-03T00:18:29+00:00

Homelessness. See the percentages by gender.

When we say that society does not give a shit about men we talk about things that actually matter not media representation.

Also... Pro male bias?

Female bias is part of the law. Gender quotas. Female scholarships. Affirmative action. Those are worse than bias. Is legal discrimination on favour of women.

About self esteem. That is a personal issue, not a societal issue.

Eastuss · 2020-05-03T10:14:12+00:00

Out of all the things other said, I want to add that young boys that act too masculinely are being diagnosed wrongly with ADHD and given literal poison for no reason at all than their parent's hate for masculinity.

Jujuj0 · 2020-05-03T00:26:05+00:00

The data were collected from July 1999 to December 2009 as part of the Gosling-Potter Internet Personality Project.

What's the point of bringing data about self-esteem from pre-social media era? You want to tell me that today in 2020 in western countries women are still less confident than men? That's pure delusion. Social media and dating apps (as well as other things) are making women overconfident as fuck.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-05-03T09:54:07+00:00

[removed]

Mondhalm · 2020-05-03T05:37:23+00:00

1) which male archetype does hollywood actually portray? Is it a healthy mindset or a serving mindset? What do the superheros actually do and what does this mean for the standard male?

2) video games do not contribute to a healthy life. How many happy people play them and how many bottom men play them? Them being marketed for men is a method for men to not question the anti-male society standards.

3) look at the method, it's explicit self-worth, lol. That doesnt say anything about the real self-worth. One of the key elements of anti-male psychology is to bind the self-worth to external worth. "Just be confident". The explicit self-worth does not correlate with the implicit self-worth, it is a method to hinder men to feel bad feelings.

4) economy is the male field. I am sympathetic for women feeling left out though.

Your first sentence says society is getting more feminized, your last sentence says men are not encouraged to be more like women. What is it?

Society has always supressed male and female indiviuals and tried to make them work for society. We wouldnt be where we are if it weren't for it. Being dishonest about anti-mal bias is a bad faith argument, your confirmation bias studies even prove you wrong.

Cobra_x30 · 2020-05-03T05:41:45+00:00

It’s not a myth, however it is our social institutions that are anti-male, not society itself.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2020-05-03T05:58:57+00:00

I agree with you that society is not anti-masculine. But I totally reject your idea that society is pro-masculine (or pro-male. "Male" and "masculine" are not the same thing).

Society is deeply ambivalent about masculinity, alternating between loving and hating it.

Most movie protagonists are male.

So are most villains.

Most movie characters in speaking roles are male.

That doesn't mean men or masculinity are favored above women or femininity.

Not to mention, almost all "disposable redshirt" roles are male too.

Super hero movies? Mostly males, who are portrayed as heroic, brave, masculine etc.

Again you're conflating "men" and "masculinity." Super hero movies show, for the most part, men living up to their traditional gender role and getting social acclaim/esteem for it. But there are two problems here...

Many men don't live up to that traditional gender role in the first place, so they're implicitly demeaned by superhero movies, and...
The traditional male role of hero was one of self-sacrifice for the sake of others. The fame, social acclaim and cultural prestige are ways to encourage people to engage in this kind of self-sacrifice. You think that most "heroes" in the real world (as opposed to the superhero movie world) live long lives where they are worshipped as gods? Fuck no, they die and get a statue and get remembered.

There are very few female superheroes.

Wonder Woman, Elektra, Catwoman, at least one of the Green Lanterns, Supergirl, Batgirl, Batwoman, Storm, Jean Grey, Rogue, Psylocke, Emma Frost...

There are plenty of female superheroes out there. You just aren't looking hard enough and/or are preparing to move the goalposts.

the characters in video games are mostly male.

I hope by that you mean "playable protagonists" because otherwise you're ignoring the millions of disposable male cannon fodder you shoot.

Not to mention, just because a character in a video game is male doesn't mean the video game is pro-male.

Not to mention, plenty of games have the ability to choose your preferred character to play as. And some games have a completely ungendered protagonist (most Sim/Tycoon games for example).

At most, you can say the majority of AAA action games have male protagonists. Which is true, but doesn't prove anything pro-male. The marketers simply assume that male protagonists will sell considering that most people who buy AAA action games are male. Treating the "video games" market as one single monolithic unsegmented market is erroneous.

Female characters in video games are often portrayed as oversexualized caricatures.

Subjective aesthetic value judgment, not a scientific one. At most you can say this is about fanservice, which isn't a bad thing at all given the nature of whom is actually buying and playing these games. And there is no sociological evidence at all that fanservice results in people treating real-life women worse.

The answer is that women have a lower self-esteem than men! Especially in western countries!

Social Desirability Bias. Women are encouraged to say they have less self-esteem. Men are greatly discouraged from saying that because there's a catch-22 involved: men who say they have low self-esteem are confessing to being not-real-men by societal standards. In our society, the act of a man asking for help is the act by which a man forfeits a legitimate claim to deserving help.

It is women who learn to have insecurities because of unrealistic body standards.

And those superhero movies aren't full of unrealistic body standards for men? Or do they just somehow not make men hate themselves?

Women are less likely to get hired than men.

That study comes from Spain, where traditional expectations are stronger than in the Anglosphere. Not to mention, here's another statement from the very article you cite:

"In fact, the data suggest an almost complete absence of discrimination against highly qualified women without children."

It seems to me like employers are searching for dedicated full-time careerists, with high qualifications + lack of children being used as a proxy to detect women whom are full-time dedicated careerists relatively uninterested in having children.

You frame this as oppression of women but its actually a product of women having options. Men are expected, by default, to be full-time careerists, whereas women can be either full-time careerists or full-time homemakers or home-career balancers.

foxylady45567 · 2020-05-03T00:25:51+00:00

Well, you cherry-picked 4 aspects, let me do the same:

1) Porn: there are more female actress than there are male actors; and female actresses are paid more

2) Sex work: demand for female sex workers is order of magnitude higher than male sex workers

3) Suicide: male suicide is a lot higher than female suicide and society DGAF

4) Homelessness: male Homelessness is a lot higher than female suicide and society DGAF.

5) Dangerous jobs: deaths on the job are much higher for men than there are for women and society DGAF.

wekacuck · 2020-05-03T00:41:58+00:00

Okay so let's look at the score board.

Women's problems:

Their tits are too big in video games.
They don't score as many top billings in Hollywood films as men.
They have low self esteem (self-reported).
Mothers have a more difficult time getting hired than fathers. (your own source states that there's 'an almost complete absence of discrimination against highly qualified women without children')

Men's problems:

They seem to be killing themselves a lot more than women do.
They seem to be falling out of the education system with 3 women to every 2 men completing degrees.
They seem to be going to prison much more than women.

carlsberg24 · 2020-05-03T06:43:57+00:00

1) Hollywood.

Three things here.

One is that plenty of movies these days feature female protagonists and actresses in Hollywood are paid just as well as actors are.

Another is that it's an archetypal, traditional hero's journey to show a man of humble origins going against diversity and overcoming it to become a prince and get the princess in the process. This is a shorthand metaphor of men investing in their society, often by risking their lives, and in exchange getting access to positions of power and, of course, women. Society desperately needs men to be invested and dangling the carrot is the way to achieve that. When men disengage, society collapses.

The other thing is that looking at something like Hollywood is an example of apex fallacy. Similarly, the fact that most people in positions of power and authority are male is misinterpreted. The great majority of men are not in any significant positions of power and gain no benefit from the few men who are. Women tend to notice the men at the top, they think "patriarchy", but they are seemingly blind to the legions of men who are not at the top and are treated as completely disposable as individuals.

2) Video games

Men are more obsessive about things so they will always be the core group of the most die hard fans. Women's interest in games is a lot more transient on average. It also used to be that gamers were almost exclusively male. This has changed now, but there are limits to how much can change.

3) Self-esteem

Men are taught that they should compete for power, but also sacrifice themselves for their in-group. They don't have the luxury of having low self-esteem if they want to succeed. A man's individual success is far more impactful on his happiness than a woman's is.

4) Pro-male bias

This isn't really true anymore. Women are actually hired preferentially now in many industries, especially the lucrative ones that formerly had a shortage of women. Men are, and always were, disposable as individuals. They may get hired, but they are also easily discarded when no longer useful.

Poopybuttholeman1 · 2020-05-03T09:30:16+00:00

Women generally look at the pinnacle of men (the top 1-5% ish) and relate their advantage over the top 1-5% of women to the bulk of men and women.

That is the ONLY demographic where men have an advantage though. The vast majority of society places women with higher value than men.

Tinder is a way of seeing this

There are other examples.

Being male is a high risk, high reward venture

Being female is a low risk medium reward venture

tinder Gini coefficient

OttoVonBismark71 · 2020-05-03T00:28:38+00:00

How can you even say this, when the concept of 'male privilege' (which rarely has any room for nuance or discussion...automatically, men just have it) exists. Think about that. For EXISTING, men are framed as an aristocratic class by society and thus must be brought down a peg. You know who else was framed like this? The Jews of Germany. Of course the society is anti-male. And it has been for a while; it's just that we're finally seeing it in its final form (well, 'final' for now. I'm sure 10 years down the line, it would be even more horrible).

TheJim66 · 2020-05-03T00:36:33+00:00

I mean I'm gonna try, but I know we are gonna see the exact same arguments next week no matter how much they are debunked.

1) Have you noticed in the recent years how most protagonists aren't masculine and how they are trying to show "their feminine " side? Take Endgame for example, thor from badass Viking God of thunder became a neckbeard who found courage because of his mommy, the hulk went from huge brute who likes to smash things to a fucking hipster etc. Etc. Masculine protagonists are becoming a rarity in Hollywood. Every movie nowadays attacks masculinity and worships feminity

As for the majority being men, trust me Hollywood really tried to change it with all the reboots, femsequels and sex changes (cough black female 007 cough) , it's just that they all bomb.

The exact same thing happens with video games.

3) Male self esteem is constantly attacked and female self esteem is constantly propped up. It's just that women are so incredibly neurotic by their nature that they still end up with a lower self esteem.

4) The study did use some professions which obviously would have bias (foremen for example) .

Any bias you might see is because employers know that men are more productive

Society as it is today is inherently antimale just look at all the laws made to extract money from men, the lack of support for male social and health issues etc.

akfoeagkopemg · 2020-05-03T00:29:11+00:00

If society wasn't anti-male, cutting baby dicks without anesthetic would be illegal

RatsuMacKinnon · 2020-05-03T03:35:26+00:00

characters being male doesn’t mean what you think it means, this just isn’t a way to analyze anything

InternalOperator1 · 2020-05-03T10:18:21+00:00

Super hero are ultra high status males. Movie stars are ultra high status males. The men depicted as video game characters are absurdly skilled or high status in some way.

Men have higher self esteem because we are either taught or learn via environmental stimulus that we have agency. As a man, you are nothing expect what you do / earn.

The flaw is the generalization. High status men have it good. High status men are not on redpill or ppd, they're off enjoying the buffet of bitches available on tinder, at clubs etc.

ModernMedia · 2020-05-03T12:01:18+00:00

You 'debunked' that the media is anti-male by picking Hollywood and video games? Both pure entertainment industry and fiction.. either you cherry pick your cases to support your argument or you prepared a very weak case debunking media bias. What actually matters are media depictions of real people and social commentary

wateroclock · 2020-05-03T13:20:08+00:00

Men are better actors and writers who create more male characters, pay more for video games and therefore earn representation with their $$$, self esteem isn't possible to measure objectively, being more likely to be hired doesn't mean pro-male bias (it can be the opposite if males are in reality more deserving of what they get).

i_cri_evry_tim · 2020-05-03T02:19:37+00:00

Lmao. What a post.

Argument 1:

Men achieve higher than women. Never mind that their are also Gail harder than women. Also, Hollywood.

This proves that world is male.

Argument 2:

An industry with an overwhelmingly male user base has a majority of male representation. The world is male.

Argument 3:

Women have body image issues. Men don’t. I totally pulled this out of my ass but the world is male.

Also, men work harder, take less days off and are willing to sacrifice more for their career, but the only reason they are more likely to get hired is muh Patriarchy.

eboy4hire · 2020-05-03T04:15:24+00:00

No contest, Hollywood worship men and masculinity. Most movie protagonists are male.

Hold up have you not seen this changing? Literally every movie in the theater these days has social justice crap in it.

Super hero movies? Mostly males, who are portrayed as heroic, brave, masculine etc. There are very few female superheroes.

I don't like the idea of female superheros, but a type of supernatural female that I really like to see in a show or film is a witch or supernatural entity with all these special powers. Particularly I'm thinking of the show Penny Dreadful.

The reason is having a female with supernatural physical strength seems unrealistic to me. A female that is in touch with the paranormal world and can do all this crazy paranormal shit is much more appealing to me. It doesn't even have to be sexualized, that stuff is just really cool to me in a female character.

Despite the hysteria about SJWs taking over video games, the characters in video games are mostly male.

How many females play video games though compared to men?

It is not men who learn to hate themselves, it is women. It is women who learn to have insecurities because of unrealistic body standards.

And who's unrealistic standards are you trying to appeal to? If you're trying to appeal to an unrealistic man, then you'll have to get an unrealistic body. If you're trying to get an average man, then you'll have to have an average body. Outside of dating I don't see why women care about this unrealistic body standard.

Men are masculinity are generally worshiped to the point where women are encouraged to be more like men,

It's not masculinity that's "worshiped" in this case; it's men. Stop trying to compete with men. I don't even really believe that men are worshiped. I'm just saying, if there's anything you worship about us, it's not as flattering when a female does the same thing.

DareyFathom · 2020-05-03T00:24:48+00:00

Consumers prefer men over women in movies and video games. Libtard society is doing its best to eliminate that, but market reality continues to thwart it. Blame women as much for men in that bias.

Self-esteem is largely biological differences. Women are more neurotic than men.

Men have a broader distribution of competency and conscientiousness thresholds. So the best employees and the worst employees will be men. Meaning employers will seek out the best which are often men and the unemployable will also more often be men.

Willow-girl · 2020-05-03T01:18:27+00:00

At least here in the U.S., government, the business world and academia are all dominated by men. It would be pretty weird for them to have an actual 'anti-men bias,' don't you think?!

coolerdrop57156 · 2020-05-03T05:04:31+00:00

Has it also occured to you that the villains are also men? Maybe hollywood and video games have male protagonist becuase in real life men are more likely to do exciting shit, and it is therefore more relatable to the audience. Women could do exciting things, but they don't. Also, hollywood is now remaking classic movies with a full female cast. Not to mention modern commercials that constantly portray women as intelligent and strong while the men are homer simpsons.

I remember growing up thinking that women are just as strong as men except women are smarter and can do no wrong. I literally though that women were better in everyway. I snapped out of thst bullshit when i was 13 or whatever. 80% of suicides are men, so yes they do have low self esteem. It takes a lot to make someonr just up and blow their heads off.

DeepCrimsonPill · 2020-05-03T02:29:05+00:00

I'm not an MRA. To me, one of the best philosophies introduced by The Red Pill is to put your own needs over others. Women do not care about our issues. So I will support my own group regardless if we are equal or even if we have it better. For example, I want masculine men in video games because I am a man. I want women to be subordinate and sexy because I think the strong, independent leads are unattractive. I don't want equality, I want what I want. If explosive over-reactions from nerds keep it this way, then let them overreact.

redditthrowaway1478 · 2020-05-03T14:48:47+00:00

Society is pro masculine traits

Society is not pro male

Also, men and women can both have self esteem issues. It’s not about who has it worse. In fact, I don’t think you could reliably measure something so subjective.

Otherwise this is a pretty good post that should drum up some good debate

bluefiremagic · 2020-05-03T15:21:45+00:00

Make up and clothing are only a small part of attraction they are used to make your form more attractive. Sure maybe women are expected to be more fashionable but this probably do to their being limits to how much fashion and makeup can actually improve a man form. But you don’t realize that how your body looks is far more important than the close you were. I know that women have it easier time dating precisely because beauty exception are far higher for men than women just not the fashion part of it.

richlad · 2020-05-04T07:05:39+00:00

Some of my friends aren't successful those are friendships I made early in life and I've seen women treating them bad just because they don't have a good job and fancy car.

I've seen them talking to those friends in demeaning ways, it's something they won't do to a man who won't take shit from them like me.

And my friends just take it, sure they do feel bad and even a few of them told me how they don't feel respect or good around those women who consider them second citizen.

Yes, not all men will experience it. That's all about it.

bluefiremagic · 2020-05-03T03:08:09+00:00

All of this seem like a fair enough criticism until you mention that women have a lower self esteem because of unrealistic standards of beauty. No men have a it much harder when it come looks when it comes to dating and develop a lot of self image disorder.

poppy_blu · 2020-05-03T00:44:53+00:00

Because anyone who uses the term “western society” is revealing themselves be not “western.” In fact there’s only one region of the world I’m aware of where white majority democracies are referred to as “western,” and it also happens to be a region where women are second class citizens as best, treated like dogs at worst. Of course they think “western society” is anti-male compared to how they think a society should function.

Harriett- · 2020-05-03T08:35:50+00:00

It’s a myth. Men know it is a myth.

It’s just men love to spread their hatred of women but they want to be righteous about it.

Title	CMV: It is a myth that society is anti-male and anti-masculinity
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	2
Comments	295
Date	May 2, 2020 11:27 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/gcg7xk/cmv_it_is_a_myth_that_society_is_antimale_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-it-is-a-myth-that-society-is-anti-male-and.659281 https://theredarchive.com/post/659281

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