Questions for left-leaning MRAs

RapeMatters · 2018-05-18T06:20:31+00:00

1) Generally very poorly.

2) Quite a few have been convinced we face sexism problems as men. That doesn’t mean they love us exactly, but they recognize we have a point.

3) I was a feminist. The MRM is the logical view when you seek equality. I stopped being a feminist when I was attacked for seeking equality.

a-man-from-earth · 2018-05-18T06:49:03+00:00

Most people that I know in real life have liberal and progressive ideas such as equal rights for all. They are mostly open to the idea of men's rights.

Some still think equal rights should be the domain of feminism and don't see the need per se.

I don't usually go out of my way to try and convince people. I've had some ugly conversations that don't go anywhere, so I try to keep it more low key and trickle truth raising awareness.

I discovered this movement and sub, because elsewhere on Reddit they were saying this was such a terrible place, with lots of misogyny, so I decided to see for myself. And as tends to happen with vilified subs, they are often not as bad as they're made out to be.

Pillowed321 · 2018-05-18T17:23:15+00:00

It varies. I think 2016 woke a lot of lefties up to how bad feminism is. A lot of Bernie Sanders supporters saw the sexism in the primaries and I've talked to some of them who are mostly supportive. The whole Bernie Bros narrative created a lot more anti-feminists on the left. But there are also a lot of feminists on the left and most of them react as you'd expect. A lot of true leftists are also upset with the Democrats for abandoning leftist policies in favor of identity politics.
Yes, see above. Also plugging The Red Pill whenever I get a chance. I've seen people change their mind after watching that.
I got out of an abusive relationship about 10 years ago and MRAs were the only people back then who would acknowledge that women could abuse men too.

fatchancebud · 2018-05-18T18:49:19+00:00

Belfort Bax, being basically the originator of men's rights and a famous socialist makes being a lefty MRA not a huge stretch. I often bring up Bax when people try to corner MRAs into an exclusively right-wing corner

Then there's Mel Feit who was/is a Democrat (I think), and Warren Farrell who also has been voting Democrat and he isn't even anti-feminist

azazelcrowley · 2018-05-18T10:55:25+00:00

It's divisive, some are incredulous and duplicitous about it and just repeat the same old tired shit. Some engage properly.
Yes, quite a bit of it.
Straughan.

Joe_Rogan_is_bae · 2018-05-19T00:38:28+00:00

An odd mix of laughter and rage. Primarily the former "Oh, whiny white men haha". I've only ever brought it up from a critical perspective as to not associate myself with the movement.
lmao. The only mens issue the current left with accept it "not expressing feelings because of patriarchy"
This subreddit actually, in 2016.

nazadus · 2018-05-18T15:23:37+00:00

How do other lefties react whenever you bring up the Men's Rights movement?

Usually fairly hostile at worst and ignored at best. Very rarely are they understanding. Now if they are left-leaning but also verbally say they aren't feminist then the odds go up that they'll be understanding towards men's rights but as much as they aren't equally active for women -- they aren't equally active for men.

Have you had any success convincing any of your fellow liberals/progressives/socialists that we are not the evil misogynists that the media labels us as?

Usually when I bring up family law (which is quite black and white on the issue) I'm quickly ignored. If, however they can concede that men are at a significant disadvantage then there's a reasonable chance I can change their mind or get them to tone down their anti-male attitude.

How did you discover this movement?

Got severely almost dicked over to the point family members wanted me to make a huge deal over it but they failed to grasp how much support women had and men don't have and we don't have the money it'd take to fight it on that level. I figured I'd take a look and see how toxic MRA's were. Some are as bad as feminazi's, some are as bad as feminists, some aren't bad at all.

I've always been egalitarian but I've also always recognize that people think men "have it all". I get the same reaction when it comes to race issues as well.

Pyromed · 2018-05-19T06:26:38+00:00

I'm definitely left wing. I'm in favour of social programs that would support communities of any type that need help. I think prison is almost entirely useless and that Norway's approach (specifically to this issue I can't say about their other policies) seems to be working and the best way to heal everyone and not just satisfy a public sense of retribution. It's these types of policies that make me left wing.

That being said. I've come to realise that to the general public that it's as much about what issues you care about as opposed to how you care about them that makes you left wing.

How did my friends react? Mixed. Some very poorly especially when I directly challenged their very Feminist ideas of self victimisation and agency reduction and I lost that friendship. Others more balanced but essentially apathetic, and a few who obviously are very similar to me and the media we follow.

Have I had any luck convincing anyone? I don't think so. The only person who hasn't completely zoned out through apathy or just shut down their thinking has been my father. He's more left than me and a fairly typical guardian reader. That being said he's worked incredibly hard in life and seems to be intrigued by the things I've talked about on occasion in that way you do when you're hearing information for the first time but it makes sense in context.

How did I discover the movement? There were a couple of events that happened separately but around the same period around 2012/13. I was at university and at the time I considered myself a feminist by default.

The first real "Eureka" moment (I guess you could call it red pill moment but I don't like that phrase) was soon after joining Reddit reading an article about male rape. Not just rape by other men but of rape by women. It sounds stupid now but it blew my mind. The concept had literally never occurred to me. For social and physiological reasons. I guess it humanised men and woke me up to how women could victimise men. I knew that they could be shitty in practice but before you become socially aware of it you just shrug those events off as one offs or blame yourself.

The second factor was my big interest in YouTube. I watched (and still do for the most part) all the original YouTubers of the Vlogbrothers ilk. Lacy green being among them. As a young man with a girlfriend who wouldn't want to learn more about sex and making women happy. I watched most of her videos but something didn't really sit right. I agreed with most of what was said but there was always an uneasy undercurrent that I just couldn't materialise.

I'd seen the name Thunderf00t and a few others pop up in comments and mentioned in passing and how they're completely misogynistic. I paid no attention, their content didn't really interest me until curiousity finally got the best of me.

If they really were so misogynistic I wouldn't have an issue listening to an idiot speak. I'm a big fan of Dawkins and listening to creationists isn't an issue so why would this be?

Except what I found didn't match what I'd heard and all their arguments made sense both logically and scientifically. I found my way on to a Karen Straughan video, and while I think they can be over general in places I agreed with almost everything.

After that it's just been a slow burn for me building my knowledge and courage to actually express what I know to others.

Edit: autocorrect and grammar.

DavidByron2 · 2018-05-18T17:47:17+00:00

Usually very badly. There's a lot of the feminist cancer in socialist circles. But I usually let them go ape shit and make themselves look like the nut cases they are. That usually means getting the right wing authoritarian treatment that feminists love. The bannings and so on. OTOH sometimes its better to just point out they said something sexist and then drop it. The people who know me now sort of apologize in advance when they say something anti-male at this point and they can see the injustice I get at the hands of the anti-male zealots. But I'm completely used to being some sort of outcast. I've never known anything else I've never belonged. I don't feel any pressure to conform.
Well they know I am not. And increasingly they feel free-er to make remarks that are kinda "sick of the SJW stuff sometimes" remarks. But I don't think it's worth trying to defend the MRM. Just ceaselessly attack the feminists and SJWs when they do wrong.
20 or 30 years ago there wasn't that much to "discover".

theedgeofthelord · 2018-05-18T12:18:02+00:00

Do you want the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right? Spolier, the same guy is holding both puppets.

splodgenessabounds · 2018-05-18T12:11:42+00:00

1) Define "lefties". In some respects I'm "leftier" than most "lefties"; in others many "lefties" regard me as only slightly left of Margaret Hilda (bloody) Thatcher.

2) The friends I have (of my generation or younger) are bloody decent human beings and would tell anyone who tried to shoehorn them into "liberals/progressives/socialists" or the polar opposite where to get off. Most people I know of operate on much subtler premises than "far-left loonies vs alt-right nutters". the most superficial, cursory examination of the commentary on this sub ought to indicate the complex and nuanced political views that make it what it is.

3) My Dad dying; my ex leaving; my dog dying; depression.

Memey-McMemeFace · 2018-05-18T18:21:02+00:00

I've seen more than a few lefties completely shut me off, block me if I'm talking MRA online, and generally indicate hostility.
Yeah, I've been in a few debate groups, and they generally seem to agree.
Surfing the internet. Idk when exactly, it was a few years ago.

mrwhibbley · 2018-05-18T06:48:39+00:00

I am liberal/moderate but believe that fairness and egalitarianism is pretty much a black and white issue. You are either sexist or not. It's either discrimination or it's not. I have found many here lean conservative but nothing like the nut jobs (no offense) on the trump supporter subreddits.

kartu3 · 2018-05-18T05:54:40+00:00

EU here.

US's understanding of "left" is mind-boggling.

Male_Positive · 2018-05-18T13:53:34+00:00

1 - These questions apply mostly to Americans (I know you are Canadian). The concept of left/right is poorly defined when you look at a variety of Western Countries.

2 - In American I would be considered very left leaning: I am very much in favour of gov run health care. I am in favour of strong efforts to reduce the gap between rich and poor.

3 - In Canada I am considered right wing, because I am in favour of reduced immigration, against feminism, against the CBC and I am in favour of free speech. I would be labelled 'Alt-Right'.

I cannot answer your questions, because it is difficult to label people as left or right.

TreyDurant · 2018-05-18T16:06:18+00:00

They laugh.
No.
DoctorRandomerCam and HBR

dolpi · 2018-05-18T20:28:43+00:00

they deny all facts that are brought up, and always revert back to the "77 cents to the dollar" myth.
i havent been able to convince anyone as they always tell me to "suck it up".
discovered this movement after my school started showing blatant discrimination and attacks on men.

ByronsLastStand · 2018-05-18T21:57:56+00:00

Depends. Three of my closest friends, who are generally pretty liberal (if you're going by left=liberal, which I personally don't subscribe to (i.e. Corbyn, a non-liberal, who is left-wing) are also pro-MRM. Some are opposed, some are in-favour, others are merely curious.
Yes! I've pointed-out the issues men face and how it's not bad for women to involve men's issues as part of the greater strive for gender equality, usually by pointing out female is not the only gender and that if men feel upset or left-out, it's because feminism can't represent men.
Around the age of 17, I encountered A LOT of very misandric feminists at school. Given I'm well-informed and not an idiot, I felt this was wrong, both logically and morally. I did some looking online, and pretty soon found the MRM

msleeduon · 2018-05-19T04:04:45+00:00

I would ask a left-leaning MRA advocate two questions: do they recognize that MRA is a form of identity politics, and can they identify any idea or policy that feminism has promoted within the last decade that they agree with?

TyrionRidesTheSow · 2018-05-19T17:18:40+00:00

Great questions, unfortunately I can only answer the third one. For background, I'm a white American woman in my late 30s, a wife, and mom to a boy and two girls. My parents are exceptional people who love me and my sisters unconditionally. I had a fantastic childhood and never grew up with the notion that men are bad or dangerous.

Two things got me interested in men's rights. I joined the local rescue squad when I was 17. One of the men was a divorced dad who clearly loved his children dearly, and when I saw them with him it was obvious they were crazy about him. (I am not in any way trying to suggest they didn't also love their mom.) I asked him about his kids and was stunned to find out that he only got to see them for a few hours every other weekend, and even more surprised that arrangement was common in divorce cases. I would have flipped out if some judge had told me I could only see my dad four days a month. I wanted to help that guy so bad but I had no idea what to do.

The second was being pregnant for the first time in 2004 and discovering that circumcision exists. The knowledge was like being punched in the gut. I couldn't understand how anyone ever put a newborn through surgery to amputate part of his normal penis. I was raised Christian, and I only have sisters, and even though I had a sneaking suspicion there was something a little odd about the adult penises I'd seen, it never occurred to me that some sick doctor had actually cut off some of their penis or that it could be legal and encouraged to mutilate baby boys right after birth. That's freakier than Twilight Zone. Fuck that. My son will be 14 this summer and he still has his entire penis.

heist420 · 2018-05-19T21:52:26+00:00

Im a communist and i hate feminism, dont ask why

ButtsMacGillacuty · 2018-05-18T19:29:50+00:00

They react badly, the are all spooked by liberal feminism.

Blutarg · 2018-05-19T14:31:00+00:00

1) Usually with hostility. "Oh, sure, women have a longer life expectancy! Yeah, right! And I really believe you that there are federal offices devoted to women's health but not to men's! Uh uh, definitely! Get out of here." etc.

3) I don't remember, hehe. It's the internet, one thing leads to another to another, and before you know it you're somewhere else.

TheRavenousRabbit · 2018-05-19T21:01:31+00:00

Being gay and a far left liberal, the immediate response is for them to claim that I'm alt-right or something along those lines. I couldn't possibly support freedom of the individual, gay marriage and social programs to help the needy simply due to me not wanting to see baby boys being slit with knives. At the core of these accusations lays the idea that you can't possibly be in favor of anything good, because you have one thing that you disagree upon. It's bigotry - ironically enough.
A lot of left leaning people are in support of what we do. In fact, most of the most important people in the movement are left leaning. Karen Straughan one, for example. I'd argue that there are more left leaning political traits in the movement, such as personal liberty and the removal of strict gender roles.
Karen Straughan was the first Men's Rights activist I cam across all the way back in 2012.

MustNotFfff · 2018-05-20T20:06:49+00:00

I never bring up the movement but I sometimes carefully bring up the issues it addresses, like divorce laws or hypergamy. Many men agree with these issues as being real issues, irrespective of their political affiliation. Personally, I dislike republicans in the US, so I vote Democrat. There's a high chance I'd vote conservative if I lived in a different country.

hirayama_ronin · 2018-05-18T11:21:40+00:00

First they deny it. Then, influenced by my iron will, they begin to see things my way. Anyone who defends feminism is quietly ejected from my life.
I don't worry about that. Do feminists care what men think about their movement? Men should not care what feminists think of the men's movement.
By getting f-d over by feminism all my life, and reading stuff online. Can't really pinpoint it. Been a long evolution.

Hwga_lurker_tw · 2018-05-19T16:11:08+00:00

They are receptive to the extreme cases, but it's mostly lip service.
You don't do anything to help your case.
Jumped over from r\trp.

hipstertuna22 · 2018-05-19T16:15:40+00:00

I'm a self proclaimed centrist/center-leftist but I thought this would work.

1) Horribly.

2) No.

3) First of all, I'm an equalist. It's a word I created. It's not a feminist, not an MRA, but both. Second of all, ever since I was a kid. I was protesting chivalry, telling people not to punch anyone (the rule is you can't punch girls, but boys are fine to punch) and calling everything "SEXIST"!

unbelievablepeople · 2018-05-19T21:05:22+00:00

Usually poorly, but oddly enough I would say liberal women are more open to it than liberal men. Liberal men absolutely love being the white knight and just hate having the orthodoxy questioned.
Yes, usually when I cite examples like police brutality (most victims are men) and homelessness (most are men). Those tend to be issues liberals care about, so when you point out that those are also men's rights issues, you can find some common ground with liberals.
I found this sub by chance and found it fascinating. I definitely am much more liberal than most of the people in this sub, but I think there are a lot of good points about men being treated unfairly in society. As a liberal, I care deeply about fairness, and that's where my interest in men's rights comes from.

IngemarKenyatta · 2018-05-19T23:26:59+00:00

1) Surprise/anger/dismissive 2) Some. Mostly lefty men. 3) Have known about it for a long time but looked deeper about 5 years ago when trying to figure out what might be points of commonality to organize around

Neko404 · 2018-05-20T00:02:07+00:00

1) rather poorly

2) nope most stick their fingers in their ears and say la la la not listening.

3) was told to educate myself, so I did.

ItsJustBeenRevoked2 · 2018-05-20T16:52:44+00:00

Yeah I won't ever bring it up. They literally cannot comprehend that men have issues.

cld8 · 2018-05-20T22:37:26+00:00

It varies, but often quite well. Left-leaning people tend to be fairly open-minded to social justice issues, so if you frame the men's rights movement as a social justice movement, you should get support.
I've definitely made some people think. I don't know if I've fully convinced them, but at least I have got the ball rolling.
From this sub.

ThirdTurnip · 2018-05-21T00:09:43+00:00

How do other lefties react whenever you bring up the Men's Rights movement?

I don't typically bring it up but it's very common in other subs for other users to look at my profile, see I'm subscribed to this sub and go straight for calling me an alt-right misogynist.

Meanwhile I'm a lefty, gay, not white, vegan, and had personally supported two female victims of harassment before being harassed myself and falsely accused by my harasser to cover herself.

Have you had any success convincing any of your fellow liberals/progressives/socialists that we are not the evil misogynists that the media labels us as?

No.

Many - but not all - lefties don't actually understand or think about their values.

They drink the lefty coolaid - which tells them what is right and what is wrong - and never question it. They're pro women, pro feminism, pro gay etc. and can't see their hypocrisy when they demonise men and shit on their rights.

How did you discover this movement?

I was sexually harassed and stalked by a woman. Multiple actually and had been told to just put up with up. But one (who I later learned was on probation at that time for attempting to strangle her ex-boyfriend) became obsessed and explicitly threatened me via email for refusing to date her.

That is absolutely 150% her sexually harassing me.

But she just falsely accused me of harassing her and ran me out of my job and PhD. And after I sued her and my employer, she kept the false complaints coming, despite knowing by that point that I'm gay.

The evidence was always crystal clear but it didn't matter. Nor did my being gay. The official position of The University of Queensland on that is that "sexuality isn't necessarily static".

She confessed to her complaints against me being false. Not even that mattered. My employer literally refused to consider her handwritten confession on the bizarre grounds that it came into existence after the investigation began.

It's a great big insane witch hunt without any regard for basic human rights or justice.

BlueOrange22 · 2018-05-21T03:47:54+00:00

Interesting post.

IMO most people are MRAs without realizing it, even if they are anti-MRM, it's usually because they have misconceptions about what the MRM actually is, or simply don't really know the reality behind MRA issues. Obviously I can't pretend not to be biased, but I really do believe that the MRM is objectively one of the fairest and most rational social ideologies.

shit-zen-giggles · 2018-05-21T04:58:52+00:00

Evasive/dismissive, often riffing off pseudo-feminist rethoric
not really
tech-blog with a critical position to the whole "women in tech" phenomenon linking a karen straughan video

PM-ME-YOUR-RANT · 2018-05-21T13:16:55+00:00

This is an important topic. I think there's significant unacknowledged overlap between leftist/liberatory politics and men's issues. There tends to be "blame the left" rhetoric among MRAs and "scapegoat working class men" rhetoric on the left. Both are dysfunctional approaches that alienate people who have a lot in common and divert them toward opposing ideology. In the case of the MRM, scaring people away from the left opens them to recruitment from reactionaries who want to enforce the gender roles that cause problems MRAs want to fix. In the case of the left, it pushes people toward liberal identity politics that freeze productive discussion and distract from structural economic issues to dickwave about who is more oppressed. In both cases it also further entrenches people into the "other" position. When MRAs blame "the left" (usually meaning liberals) they signal that leftists are not welcome here. When leftists blame alienated men, they signal that the left is no place for them.

One of the most interesting aspects of the discourse IMO is that both movements get broadly smeared in similar ways. For instance, you'll have everybody on the left lumped in with people like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot in a similar manner to how MRAs get lumped in with PUAs, MGTOW, and incels. There's also the perpetual ad hominems that try to paint these ideas as exclusively a product of some personal weakness while also being a threat to the status quo.

Liberals (democrats, progressives, social democrats) pretty overwhelmingly tend to assume bigotry. Leftists (communists, anarchists, etc) have that response in smaller proportion but stronger intensity when they do have it. It's mostly just working class leftists who I've had positive or neutral responses from. Do Note: That's not counting "apolitical" types who are disenchanted with mainstream politics, and includes a majority or close to it.
No, but I sometimes talk to leftists who already feel this way. Generally speaking you're not going to get far trying to convince a person to believe something, and even if you do they probably won't tell you. The progress of current events seems to be making it harder to believe old mythologies about sex/gender that a lot of feminism relies on. Genuine radicals tend to want to abolish gender roles, while liberals in my experience tend more toward upholding "traditional values" but re-contextualized to appear radical. As the saying goes, "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds." The radical left and the MRM stand to benefit from listening to each others' ideas. MRAs tend to be in touch with issues that working class men face, whereas liberals ignore these issues because a few ruling class men have it good. MRAs would stand to benefit from seeing how male identity ties into the class system and from learning about historical or contemporary movements of liberation.
Friend at college brought up "Don't Be That Girl" posters the first time that happened. I asked who put them up. She says men's rights activists. I chuckle because ideology and ask what that's about. She replies with the standard diatribe about kissless virgins who hate women. Immediately I recognize this as the kind of rhetoric you use when your opponent has all the arguments (from political/religious debates) and realize if this is the response that idea gets there's probably a point. So later I look up the movement, including this subreddit, and I'm an MRA overnight because of the overwhelming weight of evidence. Same basic reason I "became" a commie (I already was, I just didn't realize that my political ideas amounted to communism).

Lrellok · 2018-05-18T18:20:50+00:00

1) usually screaming hysterics initialy. Once i get past that, it is reletively easy to argue that adressing gender from one side only is counter productive to actual progress.

2) yes, alot, you simply need to couch it in economic terms. IE "Men are not going to accept women compeing with them for labor while they continue to be socially and legally obligated to pay for alimony and child support."

3) ....I have been here so long i actually have forgotten...

Halfandhalf2113 · 2018-05-21T00:40:17+00:00

Half the time with hate, the other half with understanding
Yes one person, my sister
YouTube with skeptic channels that also did commentary on SJWs and feminists

atheist4thecause · 2018-05-19T22:53:13+00:00

Well, I haven't been as active lately because /r/MensRights allowed intactivists to come in and called everyone that disagreed with them child abusers and child rapists while brigading the entire Subreddit, so I lost my passion.

But historically, Leftists try to deny that I'm part of the Left. The friends I went to college with tried telling me that I was being manipulated, and when I gave him books upon books worth of information and studies (books like "The Myth of Male Power"), he didn't have much to say in response, but he always needed more information. There was literally no amount of information I could give him that would ever be enough to convince him that there were issues men faced, too. I actually got far more sympathy from strangers that were on the Left, where they would laugh at me at first, but by the end of the conversation they usually sympathized with at least one issue and realized I was a normal person by the end of it. But that tends to be more of the Liberals I guess, because the Progressives just tend to be bat shit insane and tied to their oppression olympics. So with them I just have to show them I'm as high as possible on their victim scale.

I don't 100% remember how I found this movement. I think I googled something about a men's rights issue at one point, came across the term men's rights, and then found this subreddit googling that, but don't quote me on that.

PIG_CUNT · 2018-05-19T00:38:56+00:00

OP, how do you reconcile being a leftie with your desires for freedom and equality?

The left isn’t about either.

Equality means no one gets treated differently on the basis of their race or sex. The left is openly against that.

Freedom means not having people force you to do things or take your money. The left is strongly in favor of using force to take your money and not only that, using it to discriminate against whites and males (taxes for things like sexist or racist grants and scholarships; resources such as cash aid and housing only for females and male children 9 and younger, women-only programs, etc.)

Title	Questions for left-leaning MRAs
Author	CanadianAsshole1
Upvotes	75
Comments	225
Date	May 18, 2018 5:35 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8kau8d/questions_for_leftleaning_mras/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-for-left-leaning-mras.901024 https://theredarchive.com/post/901024

Comments