How much misogyny is there in MRA communities?

matrixislife · 2023-11-02T13:04:36+00:00

There's some in the mensrights sub.
Answer me a question though, where can anyone go to talk about the real-life fucking over they just had in divorce court, or family court, or just plain courts, because the world insists women can never do wrong? They can't come here, this is strictly for left-wingers only. The menslib sub? Hell no. So mensrights it is. And along with the raw emotions comes an element of "I hate all women right now". Is anyone actually surprised by that?

ChimpPimp20 · 2023-11-02T02:10:39+00:00

Depends on where you go. If you go to mensrights you’ll find it more often. If you go here, it’s there but the posts and comments get downvoted. You’ll find no such thing on menslib but you will find some misandry there though.

Those last two questions were ones I've seen on TwoX/TrollX actually.

deusdeorum · 2023-11-02T15:51:50+00:00

I don't see how any of your bullets are objectively sexist or misogynistic.

Misogyny is a heavily, heavily over-used term, inappropriately so.

I think a better question is how much misandry is there in feminist communities?

I think the "bad reputation" of male advocate spaces is less to do with the individuals or spaces themselves and more to do with the empathy gap and radical feminists spreading misandry.

CaptSnap · 2023-11-02T14:34:56+00:00

Honestly alot less hate than youd see in /r/twox. But thats just a low hanging fruit.....even if it is glaringly obvious to even the most blind.

What about when that academic chair wrote Why Cant We Hate Men? in a nationally syndicated magazine and didnt lose her job or even her street cred. I probably couldnt whisper anything about hating women in a dark closet without being afraid of losing my job. But thats just my privilege right? I cant say things like that obviously because .....why? women are just better than men and I should know my place? Whats the difference? She wasnt afraid of losing her job.

After all one of the cornerstones of academic feminism is misandry.

Literally... the pioneer of women's studies said the population of men must be kept at 10%. when even feminist editors at wikipedia cant wash away your misandry you know its pretty serious. You gotta be really quite oppressed to openly advocate genocide and still be celebrated as a hero. /s I think youd have to really crawl into a backwater shithole of the internet to find "MRA's" (I use quotations here because Im not sure theyre really advocating for mens rights but Gearhart is a bona fide feminist) saying something similar wouldnt you? You sure as hell wont find any academic saying that about women (or really anyone else) will you? Seems a teeny tiny bit lopsided to me and like it has been for quite some time.

I think that presents a bit of a problem dont you?

One side (I hate to use sides here but some of this is really us vs them isnt it?) gets to spread hate in almost every single venue available with impunity.

And I have to watch my language even on reddit?

If you want to find out whos in control, find out who you cant criticize.

Women found their voice and this is what many of them said and supported. Thats the responsibililty that comes with having a platform but only if youre a man right?

Being asked to play by different rules because of my sex to my detriment is exactly what Im fighting against is my point.

Vegetable_Camera5042 · 2023-11-02T02:42:30+00:00

I like this sub. Because it's the perfect middle ground between men's rights and men's lib.

Men's rights can be too conservative-leaning. While men's lib can be too feminist leaning sometimes.

This sub healthily talks about men's issues without shitting on women and blaming women for men's issues. And also without shitting on other men too by being one of the "good ones", and trying to make masculinity (toxic masculinity or positive masculinity) a solution for all men's issues.

AbysmalDescent · 2023-11-02T14:32:00+00:00

I think the better question is how much misandry and gynocentrism is there in communities who are this critical of MRA communities, how much misandry and female chauvinism is socially accepted as the norm, and how much power do women have to push certain ignorant, toxic or harmful narratives/projections onto other women and men?

The very assumption that MRA communities are just misogyny is inherently biased, hateful, dismissive and extreme, it just happens to be adopted by a larger amount of people. People who either do not care or want to care about men and men's issues, or people just want to cater to chauvinistic or misandric women.

Thevishownsyou · 2023-11-02T10:56:45+00:00

Ofcourse there is some. But I think mostly what people see as misogyny is more a very strong bitterness and not seeing women as lesser or hate per se.

stdboi1234567 · 2023-11-02T05:02:24+00:00

I've seen some in the normal Men's Rights group but it is not the norm unlike many feminist groups.

hottake_toothache · 2023-11-02T13:47:15+00:00

How do you define misogyny? Is any criticism of women as a group misogyny? Society certainly has no problem criticizing men as a group.

Women are practically expected to at least go through a "man hating" phase. Do men have the reciprocal right, or do you feel that criticizing men is somehow more acceptable than criticizing women?

Current_Finding_4066 · 2023-11-02T19:36:52+00:00

Compared to feminist subs, there is much less bigotry.

country2poplarbeef · 2023-11-02T03:40:24+00:00

About as much misandry there is in feminist communities. That's not to dismiss the misogyny, but just to understand why I interact with, and understand, it. There is a certain measure of misogyny in any authentic MRA community simply because it is a safe space for us to get these thoughts out and express them without having our intentions questioned.

I do raise an eyebrow at some of the stuff that gets said now and then, and that has caused me to be pretty selective and pretty limited about the spaces I can really, like, lurk in and rely on for support that's actually healthy for me to rely on. But I have to approach that from a place of understanding, knowing that they're going through similar difficult processes like I have and am going through, and they're probably saying a lot of things that are being misunderstood and taken the wrong way, like I've also experienced and am experiencing.

So, to answer your question, it's just a complicated answer. Lol There's definitely misogynism present in MRA communities, and I have to be humble and understand that maybe I'm being misogynist in a lot of situations. But alongside the misogynism, I also have to understand that such misogyny is representative of these spaces being safe for men, in the same way that Feminist spaces are safe for women.

r2o_abile · 2023-11-02T20:10:22+00:00

Spend 10 minutes on TwoX and ask yourself the question again.

EndHlts · 2023-11-02T20:59:09+00:00

It exists, but nowhere near as much as feminists would have you believe.

hshsgdve · 2023-11-02T04:49:25+00:00

Anything that specifies women, specifically, in a negative light, is considered misogyny.

Truth is irrelevant.

Phantombiceps · 2023-11-02T10:37:06+00:00

Not very much. since it started so late in history, most men’s rights ideology accepts most 20th century women’s lib demands.

dawszein14 · 2023-11-02T19:43:25+00:00

misogyny and misandry aren't the main obstacles to the happiness of men and women. we need a men's rights movement to overcome real social conditions, not to overcome the wrong opinions in people's heads

Embarrassed-Tune9038 · 2023-11-02T20:43:43+00:00

Depends on what you classify as misogyny.

Gnome_Child_Deluxe · 2023-11-02T10:24:38+00:00

The amount of misogyny you see depends on where you go. Some places are better than others but by the nature of the topics we discuss there's always the risk of misogynistic attitudes popping up.

You just have to have good moderation and even better regular contributors to call out bad behavior.

I will say that I think it's very difficult to create a space or community where it doesn't feel like you either let some hatred and unproductive rants get through or you force people to walk on eggshells too much. There's a very fine line between the two and I don't think that there is any place on the internet that has figured out how to do it perfectly. That isn't just true for spaces dedicated to talking about men's issues either, it's true for basically any space that talks about the issues/grievances of some sort of group/identity online.

Dapper_Platform_1222 · 2023-11-02T10:18:00+00:00

Honestly there really isn't misogyny in MRA spaces. There is a lot of pointing out misandrist practices.

safestuff987 · 2023-11-02T19:37:47+00:00

It depends on the specific community, happens more in some than others.

In places like AskMen and MensRights you see it quite often, arguably moreso in MensRights than AskMen. MensRights is a broader audience than here; you see more men who are right wing or socially conservative, so naturally you tend to see it more there. But with that being said, the focus isn't misogyny per se, it's just that the misogynists tend to latch on. It's the unfortunate ugly side of men's issues communities.

As for the answers to those questions:

In itself, no. The ugly side of women's communities (especially the more echo chambery ones on Reddit) is that misandry is rampant and ignored at best, and at worst encouraged.
Maybe a little, but if a man wants to not deal with women anymore I won't blame him for that.
Yes, it's no different from a woman deciding that she hates men because she's been treated badly by a few men.

dawszein14 · 2023-11-02T19:41:43+00:00

If a woman with particularly bad experiences with men goes a little overboard in suspecting and hating all of us, I don't blame her. Ditto for men. we shouldn't be induced by people outside the men's rights movement into excluding too many of our fellows. of course there are people who are bonkers - and many who are simply analytically incorrect or overuse hyperbole and superlatives - who can get attracted to a movement like the men's rights movement that charismatically addresses matters of life and death, economic well-being, family life, love, and loneliness, but we shouldn't use a lot of energy policing internally to impress people who usually don't have much interest in listening to us, anyway. we should focus on growing bigger and stronger, and being a movement of tattle-tales and nitpickers isn't the way to do that imo

Nihi1986 · 2023-11-03T01:38:24+00:00

There's a considerable amount in all those places (MRA included) compared to any sub or forum non manosphere related... however, in MRA, it's a lot less ans better managed than in typical redpilled/incel/mgtow places.

It's understandable that jaded men end up there too and showing some misogyny, I honestly don't think it should taint the whole reputation of those forums (specially MRA) the same way a crazy radical feminist won't taint the whole reputation of a mainly female space.

To all your questions: No, not at all, as long as it doesn't reach the extremes, like pretending you don't even see or hear women, or using the most derogatory and insulting words you could find to describe women's communities.

KnifeWieldingRoomba · 2023-11-09T06:48:11+00:00

Being extra careful in an attempt to appease people who have no incentive to present you in a fair light anyways does not work. All it leads to is you looking weak, starting from a defensive position and accepting large parts of the opposition's frame for free right from the get-go.

"Looking bad" simply is par for the course when you are actually challenging systemic discrimination instead of just pretending to do so. When you are truly swimming against the tide you will always be disliked and get a bad rap. Think back to any moment in history and imagine yourself challenging some big injustice of the time. You see your efforts ever being recieved by anything except for resistance and slander? Only if you join a movement already gaining traction on its way to victory. Meaning only if you wait till it's an opportune time to jump on the bandwagon.

If you think you are challenging societal norms but there is no push-back happening you are not actually challenging anything. Don't be so scared of offend / rub outsiders off the wrong way. It's inevitable and necessary.

lokithejackal · 2023-11-02T06:30:05+00:00

A fair bit. This is one of the only ones I can stand. I really dislike communities that hate others. Why I largely avoid feminist forums these days too.

SvitlanaLeo · 2023-11-02T07:41:39+00:00

No more than misandry in AskFeminists. However, I despite right-wing MRAs' claims against more vulnerable social groups than white cisgender heterosexual gender-conforming women.

TheNerdWonder · 2023-11-02T07:27:01+00:00

There is some. It's pretty commonplace in r/mensrights and not at all checked, but the rest are great. They are not just ranting about women as the exclusive source of all their issues and ACTUALLY engaging in civilized and nuanced debate and discussion.

Prizvyshche · 2023-11-02T03:09:04+00:00

The last two statements are misogynistic, the first is not necessarily so

Unfortunately, all communities that are focused on the interests of a particular group of people are more likely to be chauvinistic towards those who aren't the main object of attention. Therefore, men's rights activists should be careful to detect misogyny among us

No amount of misogyny and misandry is acceptable

Thank you for raising an important topic!

-SidSilver- · 2023-11-02T11:18:53+00:00

Isn't the second one a massive red flag? I mean men can opt out of dealing with close/romantic/co-dependent relationships with women if they want, but '...deal with women anymore'?

If you see women as fellow human beings (and if you don't, you need serious help) "dealing" with them is very much implied. If you have issues with the dynamic between men and women and disapprove of how society treats each, then hate the game, not the player.

Leobrandoxxx · 2023-11-02T13:12:44+00:00

If we exclude far-right-, redpill- and incel-dedicated spaces

This cuts down on most of these spaces online because.

hotdogbalancing · 2023-11-02T16:12:43+00:00

If we exclude far-right-, redpill- and incel-dedicated spaces

It's kinda disingenuous to do so, given that they are the most populous groups that call themselves MRAs, and a severe obstacle to getting any mainstream attention on men's rights issues.

Raphe9000 · 2023-11-02T18:08:21+00:00

If we exclude far-right-, redpill- and incel-dedicated spaces

To be fair, I think this starts to go a bit too far into No True Scotsman territory. Many people here, thankfully, outright reject said communities (and my main gripe with feminism is how little it rejects misandrist actors, allowing their ideals to permeate at large), but I would still consider female incel and other fringe misandrist communities to be part of feminism, so I wouldn't see it as far to reject all the bad actors within MRA communities.

I feel r/MensRights has been slowly yet progressively getting worse, which I find quite sad, as it's definitely the biggest community here and does highlight a lot of legitimate issues, making it kinda a representative and also thus at danger of radicalizing people.

I try my best to call out bad actors, and I've noticed such comments being much more controversially received than they used to be.

Do you feel it's too much even if it's every now and then?

Any hatred is too much. Now, I will avidly argue against anyone who says the misandry in the broader feminist movement is not as bad or as prominent as the misogyny in the broader MRM, as will I argue against anyone who says misandry and misogyny aren't comparable, but I don't think we should adopt the same acceptance of hatred that feminism so often does.

Do you think we should be especially careful about such things because of the already bad reputation of the men's rights movement?

100%. Someone bringing a completely statistically-backed argument, doing their best to extend empathy to all, and even speaking with firsthand experience of trauma is still liable to be branded a misogynistic incel if they go against feminist ideology.

We might not be able to stop the namecalling, but we can at least do our best to show others that said namecalling is unfounded.

Do you find it sexist or misogynistic if someone...

...complains about the toxic atmosphere of women's communities?

Most definitely not. All communities should do their best to regulate themselves, and it's natural that a community where people are united based primarily on an immutable characteristic is at risk of becoming an echochamber in regards to bigoted opinions that purport said immutable characteristic to be superior to or at danger in regards to other immutable characteristics and/or the supposed supposed or "innate" behaviors that come along with them.

It is the responsibility of that community to regulate itself to stop such hatred from being entertained, and if such regulation becomes impossible, it is best for the remaining good actors to distance themselves from that community. As someone with autism and in some autistic communities, the ableism against NTs is pretty prominent, and it's something I actively refuse to engage with and will condemn if I get the chance.

...says he's decided not to deal with women anymore?

Yes. To treat people differently because of their sex is sexist. Now, I can understand that legal double standards can force one to be particularly careful around those who might be of a more favored group than them, but I tend to find that it's still best to apply such caution to everyone, regardless of which group they're in. After all, people don't choose how they're born, and there can be good or bad people of any demographic who are willing to abuse systems in place.

...says women have always treated men badly?

Yes because it generalizes women. I find it just as sexist when people say "men have always abused women" and "men commit more crimes" and so on. To apply an acting quality in general is to imply that one being in that group makes them either possessive or at least prone to such qualities. It's also stereotyping and generally erasive.

GrevilleApo · 2023-11-02T09:52:07+00:00

Too much for my tastes. I couldn't be bothered to stay when you get flamed for even suggesting simple things like, "women should not lose rights to create what you might consider more fairness. We should get rights installed if you want fairness"

Basically don't bring someone down, bring others UP. They weren't havin it.

psychosythe · 2023-11-02T15:24:05+00:00

Enough to keep me out out of them basically all the time. Some of that's conditioning. Some of that is burnout on discussing and advocating for issues that, frankly, are improving at a crawl or actively getting worse in direct response to people trying to improve them. Some of that is the ever shrinking population of teenage edgelords.

No. But it's an easy Segway into misogyny.
No. But it's an easy Segway into misogyny.
Yes. Just like most people on this sub would say it's misandry to Blanket state 'men have always treated women badly'.

advintro · 2023-11-02T13:12:34+00:00

I only know about the redpill with regard to the documentary and to me it just sounds like ordinary men's rights activism.

Are they any different irl?

Also what's black/purple pill?

Musing_Mother · 2023-11-28T17:05:48+00:00

Both feminism and men’s rights have horrible reputations. But feminism is the worst of the two because they are not actually needed.

Men’s right is half and half. They got good people and the bad. Just as everything else in life is.

Comments