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imrightandyournot
[–]tothecatmobile 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
or (to some people), she's an evil baby murderer.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If only male reproductive choice had the support that abortion has...
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
58% of Americans are now Pro-life
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, on one hand, I am a Euro citizen, so it's not that bad over there. On the other, I would celebrate profusely the day that 42% of Americans proclaim themselves to be pro-men's reproductive rights...
[–]Zoltrahn 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very true, not all women are supported in admitting they are not ready for motherhood. Although it is almost universally condemned when men do the same with fatherhood.
[–][deleted] 59 points60 points61 points 12 years ago* (83 children) | Copy Link
Perhaps I am wasting energy that could be spent on securing equality for females, but this is men's rights and here it goes.
I am a 23 year old male who impregnanted a woman accidentally (the sex itself was on purpose). Unknowning of the pregnancy I made it clear we were not going to start up a relationship, then a month later I was informed. After some damage control I made it clear that at the time we would never be able to give the child a proper lifestyle (I was 20 and in my sophomore year of college, she was an 18 year old freshman). She disagreed and carried on with the pregnancy, and here I am today attempting to pay child support with a crappy job living several states away from both of them. I am free to see the child if I could even afford to travel. Now this sort of thing happens everyday but how should it be handled legally?
EDIT: The usage of the word "Crappy" when referring to the job was meant to describe the low pay that will not nearly cover what the child will surely need in the future. I am just describing a point of view from someone who wished the child would have been supported by two adoptive parents who could provide a stable lifestyle.
EDIT2: It's apparently necessary to state that I absolutely care for the welfare of this child, I wish I could spend time with her and provide her everything she needs to be happy. However this post is about a legal issue of rights, I didn't even present an opinion on the issue, just an example of a man who was given no choice post-consensual sex to be a legal father or not.
[–]abusmakk 25 points26 points27 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
I hate that it's like that. If an unwanted pregnancy happens, the woman can choose whether or not she wants to be a mother, but God forbid that the man can.
Some sort of form should be signed before one could demand child support.
[–]Masterwallabee 23 points24 points25 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
I agree with the sentiment about child support, but it makes sense for the woman to have the ultimate say in whether or not she gets an abortion. If, at the stage when the woman is deciding that, the man also gets to decide whether he wants to support the child, the system would be a lot better.
If the man decides that he does not want to be involved and the woman chooses to keep the fetus regardless, she's saying that she believes herself capable of supporting and raising a child without the man who impregnated her. If he does choose to raise the child, but she makes the decision that she isn't ready, then they will have to work it out as a couple.
Men and women both have the right to bodily and fiscal autonomy. Systematically taking that from either group without their consent is wrong.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]SouthrnComfort 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
If one group has that option, though, why shouldn't both?
[–]Masterwallabee 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Edit: replied to the wrong comment.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]SouthrnComfort 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
But don't both parties have equal responsibility for the pregnancy? Logically, they should both have equal say in their obligation to the pregnancy. One party shouldn't have all the say.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]icedcat 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
adoption? legal waiver for the father?
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'd say Pro Choice advocates don't agree with you on that.
[–]outcastded 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The point is just that if the woman chose to have the baby, and the guy don't want it, then she would have the choice to either get rid of it or raise it on her own economy.
[–]Masterwallabee 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's where bodily autonomy comes into play. No matter what, the man cannot make the woman carry her child, or give it up. However, I believe that the man has every right to withdraw financially from the situation at the same time the woman has the right to have an abortion. Similarly, if the woman does not want to raise a child, but is willing to give birth to one for her partner, she should also have the ability to opt out financially. In this arrangement, the woman does have more power, because regardless of what the man wants, she has the ultimate say in what happens to her own body. In my opinion, this is not unfair.
What is unfair is if her ability to choose what happens to her also dictates the future of the man in the situation.
I don't think it's particularly unrealistic to say that men and women should have the option to financially and/or physically withdraw from a pregnancy.
Saying that they are taking responsibility for their actions by forcing them to pay for or bear a child is unfair. Birth control pills can fail, condoms can break, partners can lie. There's no way to be 100% sure of what will happen, and telling people, "well you shouldn't have sex, then," is ethically wrong and morally repulsive.
[–]masterrod 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Now this sort of thing happens everyday but how should it be handled legally?
You should have immediately gone to a lawyer when you knew that she was going to have a pregnancy but you did not want to support the child. This way you could have found out the laws of your state.
Before she filed child support you should have made an written agreement of how you would take care of the child. Since your young you should do it with both of your parents.
It's apparently necessary to state that I absolutely care for the welfare of this child, I wish I could spend time with her and provide her everything she needs to be happy. However this post is about a legal issue of rights, I didn't even present an opinion on the issue, just an example of a man who was given no choice post-consensual sex to be a legal father or not.
If you care for the child then child support is somewhat moot. Unless she's simply vindictive women usually go for child support when they don't have confirmation from of how you're going to take care of the child.
You know the babymama wouldn't have probably made me pay, but her mom(babygrandmama) who she depended on financially made her file for child support
[–]masterrod 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep sounds typical. Most women that i know that file for child support, only do so when the money get light.
Things like that you have to just approach her mother. Approach her mother with your parents, so there are no miscommunications. Usually, as long as her mother knows you're not skipping out on the responsibility it's all good.
Good luck. You should try to talk to more to her mother. Even if it's difficult, it will make your life easier in the long run.
[–]AssignUntoMe 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Where I am in Canada, I am required to have a child support agreement in place before I am eligible (as a single parent) to receive other system benefits. The system works in the favour of the children, not the parent(s).
[–]SouthrnComfort 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If abortion is legal, there is no reason men shouldn't be allowed to commit to financial abortions.
[–]gembabird -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
...apart from the fact that if it was legal, lots of men would take that option and the cost of unwanted pregnancy would rest even more heavily o tbe shoulders of the mother. Also more children would have less money. The child would pay for THEIR FATHER's selfishness.
[–]gtr0y 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's either the child or the father who have to pay for the mother's selfishness.
[–]cuddle_rapist 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also there is a thing called contraception for both parties...
[–]SayWaat 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Did you use a condom?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I remember referring to condom I had in my pants pocket and being waived off like nah its fine ( assuming birth control) but obviously I was outrageously stupid to go along with that but here we are.
[–]SayWaat 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, please wear a condom from now on. Not only to protect you from pregnancy but also from stds. Neither are worth a slightly better sexual experience.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
There's a lot of assumptions you've made about how I actually feel about the situation. This post is not about complaining, its simply an example of what happens.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
refer to my ammended post please
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]donbythehouseelf 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
The whole point of this was not "being a father", as in caring for or being there for a child, it's about the legal rights of the people involved. Whether anyone cares about the welfare of the child is not in question. It's if they should have to take responsibility for their actions.
No condom = baby
No baby = condom
Someone shouldn't be attacked for not being there for their kid, that's a decision that's on them. But maybe they should have to make some contribution to helping the person that they created, if the mother needs help.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]solaria_mra 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Just stop.
[+]unmofoloco -16 points-15 points-14 points 12 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you, a guy bitching about paying child support is like a drunk driver bitching about losing his license. You don't want to pay support, don't cum inside. If the condom breaks, get your ass to CVS and buy the morning after pill. I subscribe to this sub because there are times I think guys really do get screwed by the system but this is not one of those times.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I'd like to make it clear that I am not complaining about the child support so much as I am providing a case for this entire concept to be argued over
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Like patching a tire instead of buying a new one. It was a way to keep the inevitable children from ending up in foster care, but at the price of inequality.
I understand that the legal systems must work in a messy environment, fixing what they can, and making the system run as smoothly as possible.
I honestly wouldn't want more and more children to be raised in poverty at the expense of equality. I'm was just discussing rights.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The inequality in question is about a woman's right to decline legal motherhood, not a man and woman sharing the care of a child/
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]historyismybitch 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The issue isn't about biology or who does what. The issue is that /r/mensrights is about putting men on the same level as women on issues that favor the latter. If a woman can choose whether or not to be a mother to a fetus, that same right should be given to the father.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]itrebilco 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
After reading all your comments I feel fuckfuckfuckfucks you are missing the point. No one is saying they want to force women to have abortions. Just that if women are allowed an out, then men should be allowed one too. Also you are pretty much the perfect example of what the comic is talking about. Calling this guy a asshole and self absorbed jerk because he says he never wanted to be a father. Unless you are trolling which being the internet is a very high possibility.
[–]Lord_ThunderCunt 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dead fucking on.
In my youth I had a paternity test flung my way. The mother told me she didn't want anything from me at all.(yes, she may have lied) long before I had my dna tested, the state in which I lived drafted a payment plan for me.
The state had labeled me a dead beat dad before I was proven to be the dad or not. 0 opt out option even though the mother wanted nothing from me and nothing to do with me. Even though the mother lived in across the country and the child was conceived in a third state neither of us lived in, I had a payment plan lined up for me.
DNA proved it wasn't mine but that feeling of having no options still sticks with me.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]itrebilco 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
But see the problem I have is that you are putting all the responsibility on the male. If he leaves she is not forced to be a single parent, she is choosing to be a single parent. Because she has the option to abort or adopt, either of which she can choose. Women have options in this case, men do not.
Also your last sentence bothers me because you are assuming that men should help raise the child because that is the right thing to do. Women shouldn't have to have a child if they don't want one and they shouldn't be insulted because of their choose. Men shouldn't have to have a child if they don't want one and they shouldn't be insulted because of their choose. That is what equal rights are.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]itrebilco 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
So a female has the right to absolve herself completely from having a child but a male has to pay because of a choose she makes? Its not a males responsibility to take up the slack because of a choose a female makes.
I think that there needs to be an opt out option for males prier to the child being born, maybe along the same timeframe as the option for abortion. This way if the male has not opted out then yes, once the child is born he is responsible for the child's needs. But being forced to do something because of the choose of someone else, I feel is wrong.
And talking about preventing the pregnancy prier to conception is irrelevant, because we are discussing post conception options and chooses.
[–]booyah2 -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You should have said she looks like a Slinky and pushed her down some stairs.
this is a joke, even given the horrible circumstances I would not reccomend bodily harm against anyone.
[–]themboness -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
Typical woman, craving a man's money over all else. Fucking money-sucking whores.
Crazy question: did she sabotage the birth control? Sounds like she was searching for an easy free paycheck.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You know this was someone I knew as an acquaintance but wasn't sure what pills she was and wasn't taking
[–]themboness -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Always find that out man. It's crazy to put your life in the hands of a woman.
[–]themboness -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why are you stalking my posts? Get a life.
[–]mkmkmk1028 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
you have a lot of hate in you. this is a really complicated issue and every party came off for the worse. raising a child is by no means an easy paycheck, and chances are even with child support she's still carrying the majority of the burden. single mothers in this country have it really hard. she got pregnant at 18, she was practically still a kid. mens rights isnt about hating women its about dismantling an oppressive gender system that has hurt both men and women.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Having sex with two different dudes in the same night, used to attend school for theater, living in new York city (the most expensive city in the country to live in )
[–]Celda 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No...there isn't.
You must be mistaken about what happened.
[–]kalez238 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, he did, but it might have just been an agreement he and my mother made, considering she got full custody rights. This was after years of him paying child support as well. My sisters and I all knew what was going on. He made sure we knew he wasn't giving us up because he wanted to. But after that he never paid a cent.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
"Before we have sex, I'm going to say that I will not be aborting any possible children we conceive on this evening, now lets get to it."
sweet edit, I like it.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'll admit that most pre-sex discussions probably ask about a condom or birth control. But those types of things can fail.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I can tell you that some people have been married for countless years and haven't even mentioned reproductive rights to eachother
yep
[–][deleted] 44 points45 points46 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
While funny and cute here is a good break down of the issue.
Is Forced Fatherhood Fair? Laurie Shrage is a professor of philosophy and women’s and gender studies at Florida International University.
[–]jcmence1488 29 points30 points31 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Funny and cute were not the words that came to my mind.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I understand, I'm sorry if you felt I was trivilizing the issue. I did not mean too.
[–]IM_A_WOMAN 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I can't tell, is he patronizing me again? I can't even tell anymore
[–]brettins 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He's sincere, just not great with words. :)
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not.
[–]raspyrasberry 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Mac?
[–]Bearmodule 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't do that. Don't make us look like whiny fucks.
[–]exo762 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Great link. Thank you!
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I'm hoping the students that " believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior" are referring to how proposed anti abortion laws control female sexual behavior.
[–]donbythehouseelf -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
" believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior"
I got from that "we want to have unprotected sex and face absolutely no consequences, and not have to take any responsibility for our actions"
Not my take but I use safer sex practices, but errors happen. Condom breaks, homonal BC fails, cycle planning is off. I'm very clear with my girlfriend I am not interested in children. They scary thing is after I take all appropriate precautions mistakes can happen and I loose all choice if there is an accident (eleminating sex for men is not an option, just like it is not for women). I'm very relived plan B has come along. I fund Vasagel, it would be great if women could avoid hormonal BC, so many sideffects. I just want to increase options for men, I see nothing wrong with that.
[–]donbythehouseelf 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I didn't mean the whole article I thought that had really good points. Or the issue of equal rights for both parties, I just meant that quote they had pulled out about the students saying that by "punishing" men for accidental pregnancy, society is trying to control their sexual behavior.
I see.
which could very well be the opinions of the students in question, but their statements still carry a strong point
[–]cybaritic 64 points65 points66 points 12 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
It's not really equivalent, though. To be fair, if a mother did have the child then decided not to be a mother, i.e. leaving the baby with the father to raise alone, she would be just as selfish as the guy on the left.
I get the point it's making, but it's kinda oversimplifying. :/
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That's not the scenario commented on by the comic, and given the biological differences between the sexes, you should use some critical thinking to figure out what is equivalent for both sexes.
Let's pretend that both the father and mother make their choice to be a parent or not before they even have sex.
Both decide not to be parents, but the woman gets pregnant, and they both share some responsibility because it was consensual.
The man already decided he doesn't want to be a parent before conception, so he's out of the picture, it doesn't matter if it's before or after the kid is born, he's gone. Society at large considers men like this deadbeats. The government comes after these men for child support.
The mother made the same decision, so she chooses to abort, leave the kid with the father, or put the child up for adoption. Keep in mind she doesn't need permission to terminate the pregnancy, and in many cases doesn't need permission to put the child up for adoption. Society at large does not consider women who get abortions, or put their kids up for adoption to be deadbeats, and the government doesn't consider most women to be responsible when leaving the child with the father.
And that is why the situation is so fucked up.
[–]cybaritic -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
should use some critical thinking
This is exactly my point... this issue is too complex for a comic format, and requires more critical thinking. Thank you for your example!
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem is, if the comic were to elaborate more on the circumstances, it wouldn't be as effective. It reduces the circumstances to their choice to be a parent or not, which is really what is most important.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]thefran 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Those are not really equivalent at the moment, are they? Abortion is a question of body autonomy. The woman is able to decide whether or not the child is born, because the child is using her body as an incubator.
When (not if) we have the technology to reliably make it so we can, at any point, extract a fetus from a woman's body and place it in an artificial womb where it'll develop normally, the two will be truly equal, and the father will be able to raise the child on his own.
[–]Kronos6948 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
The fact still remains that if he doesn't want the child, yet she does, he has no choice in the matter. This is why I've taken every preventative measure to not impregnate anyone. It's the only time I have a choice and can't be trapped. That being said, not every means of contraception is 100% effective, so there's still a chance that I could be trapped.
The way to make this work would be to still give the woman autonomy over her body, but have an opt out for the man should she decide to go full term and he doesn't want the child.
[–]thefran -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
he has no choice in the matter
That is true, but he should not have had sex then.
I believe that men can be exempt from child support if they were raped, if they are sperm donors, or if it has been proven that the woman tried to get pregnant without the man's consent (pierced condom, taking aspirin instead of birth control), but if they willingly had sex and got the woman pregnant they will have to take responsibility for their actions.
Giving the option for a man to just opt out of fatherhood will be abused by unsavory men.
people already go "nvm lol actually i think i don't want children after all, sorry about your six month pregnancy".
not every means of contraception is 100% effective
Condoms are near perfect. Birth control is even better.
[–]Kronos6948 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
If the guy used a condom and she still got pregnant, you've removed the last option for him. The woman can have sex whenever she wants, and still use abortion as birth control. That's not what abortion is for, imo, but it's still used that way. With your scenario, the onus is still on the man to choose to not have sex. If a woman decides to have sex, doesn't want kids, both parties are using birth control and still somehow she gets pregnant, that mans fate is in her hands. Should she think that it "must be meant to be" because even with birth control, she got pregnant, the man still suffers the consequence of her choice. If she decides to abort, he's still suffering the consequences of her choice. What if no protection was used, and he wanted to keep it? She still could abort, with or without his consent. The same rules don't apply equally.
[–]thefran 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
the onus is still on the man to choose to not have sex
Well, that is true, because when a woman becomes pregnant, she has to carry the child for 9 months, breastfeed him and stuff. There's a risk of death, complications, it's an extremely taxing process, it can fuck up your career permanently...
If not for child support, men would not have had any responsibility aside from what they choose.
There is no medical technology in place that will allow us to apply these rules equally.
I've had sex with a lot of women, and I can safely divide them into two (heavily intersecting) categories - sluts that would not have any interest in having a child anyway, and women I would have agreed to raise a child with, if worst came to pass.
[–]Kronos6948 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
So you see the dilemma? She's the one making the choice to carry for the 9 months, not him. If he wants an abortion, and she doesn't, he's not making her carry to term. So he's paying for her decision.
[–]thefran 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
the decision to have sex is mutual
the responsibilities on both parties are inequal
[–]Kronos6948 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly my point.
[–]gtr0y -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
tl;dr Woman has to carry the baby so fuck men and their lives.
This is called slut shaming by feminists. It is wrong for both sides to argue for complete abstinence, because it is impractical. There is a clear inequality when it comes to reproductive rights in the US. Neither is ideal for women or men, but men have less options when it comes to paternal responsibility.
[–]notallittakes 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Abortion is a question of body autonomy. The woman is able to decide whether or not the child is born, because the child is using her body as an incubator.
Not disagreeing here, but a theoretical question: why is it that the woman has the right to decide the fate of both bodies, while the child has the right to neither?
I have an answer to that, but I'm curious to see how others approach it.
In my opinion, the answer to that is critical for the bodily autonomy argument to work. If it were defined loosely as 'any person has a right to their whole body' and 'person' were to include 'unborn child', then the child would also have a right to keep their body intact, while the mother simultaneously has a right to be free of the child. Without technological intervention, we have a contradiction.
[–]thefran 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
while the child has the right to neither?
I believe that life begins at conception, and disagree with abortion for moral reasons.
However, two things:
1) As per violinist analogy, the woman's body autonomy overrides the child's body autonomy.
2) Making abortions illegal will only stop legal abortions. Coathanger abortions are not supposed to safely extract the baby, they are supposed to damage the uterus so that the doctor will be forced to do that.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]journalistjb 34 points35 points36 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Seriously. Abandoning a child at a fire station or giving it up for adoption are not considered selfish or deadbeat things to do.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Phoxxent 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Except it's not just her body in the equation.
[–]moorethanafeeling -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is the part that everybody skips over. Your worth as a person shouldn't be determined by your parents. There are human beings alive today that were born prematurely and could have legally been aborted the day they were born. But they were allowed to live because their parents decided they were worth being given life.
[–]technocyte 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not if the father is around and doesn't want to give it up for adoption. And then if the child stays with the father, the mother will probably have to pay child support.
[–]Cthulhu__ 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Which can be a choice too, yeah. Pro-choice does not imply abortion, come to think of it. Take that, politically correct phrasings!1one.
I do wonder though, if a mother puts a child up for adoption, does the biological father get dibs?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, he does not.
[–]Something_More 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. He has the right to challenge any adoption if he has made it known he is the baby's father (and not married to the mother.)
Probably not
[–]Bartab 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It is entirely equivalent. Nowhere in the comic does it say that the man decided not to be a father after birth instead of before. That's something you read in that doesn't exist.
[–][deleted] 162 points163 points164 points 12 years ago (109 children) | Copy Link
This comic has been reposted here countless times, and it doesn't make any sense. This is a false equivalency. If a man walks out on his child, he is leaving the mother to raise him/her alone. If the woman gets an abortion then there is nobody raising anyone.
[–]Stoeffer 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If a man doesn't want to be a father and the mother knows this, why is it his fault when the child is left to be raised by the mother on her own? Whose choice was it to have the child? Why do we blame the father for being selfish when the mother is the one who chose to bring that child into the world in those circumstances?
Now, if both parents decide to have a child and the father bails after the fact, I think we can put some blame on the father, but this issue is a bit more complex than the latter scenario.
[–]thefran -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
If a man doesn't want to be a father then why did the mother become pregnant in the first place?
[disclaimer, this is not a racist argument, this is just the only stat I know off top of my head]
Up to 70% of black children grow up in single-parent environments. Condoms have a 99% effectiveness rating. The rest is, we assume, from torn condoms, in which case there's plan B.
Condoms and the pill result in a 99% and .9 repeating.
[–]Stoeffer 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If a woman doesn't want to be a mother how did she become pregnant?
What about the 1%? What about when a condom isn't used? What about when someone is told the woman is on the pill but she's not? What about when she is but the pill is ineffective?
Are you seriously not aware that accidental pregnancies do happen? You seem to think that pregnancy is an automatic indication of one's desire for a child but that's a bit crazy, isn't it? If that were the case, there would be no need for abortion.
[–]thefran 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This subreddit is full of useless children, as we both see.
how does babby put in vagina adurrrr
What about the 1%?
What about the 70%?
What about when a condom isn't used
Literally entirely the man's fault.
You seem to think that pregnancy is an automatic indication of one's desire for a child but that's a bit crazy, isn't it?
Learn to fucking read.
[–]Stoeffer 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
You would know because that's probably the most useless and childish response I've ever received. You're not even trying to discuss the issue. I guess it requires some intellect and maturity that you don't yet possess. The number of useless children will decrease when people like yourself go away so please do us a favor and do that. Thanks.
[–]continuousQ 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
But, if the potential mother knows there isn't a father ahead of time, she could decide not to have a child.
Of course we tend to solve the biological inequality with law, and force the sperm dispenser to be financially or personally involved, as a way to ensure care. We could consider what alternatives there might be, if our main concern is that children are taken care of. Roping in the one person who happened to have been involved in one single instance of sex that led to fertilization, doesn't to me seem like it is the best possible solution.
Children deserve parents who want to be parents, and who are capable of being parents. Someone having had sex at one point, someone having been involved in one particular instance of sex, isn't the ultimate qualifier for that. And, we also have governments so that they can direct where resources go, what they are used for. Forcing one person in particular, to give up their funds or time, isn't the only way to go about it.
[–]pixelskeleton 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think that this is a complicated issue and it is difficult to treat both sexes equally in this case because of the nature of the pregnancy, but you have come the closest here to proposing an effective and fair solution. If the father proposes a legal stance of disinterestedness in the child at a time when an abortion is still physically possible (thereby absolving himself of responsibility for the fetus before it ever exists in any human capacity), then that could be considered the male version of 'aborting' responsibility, and the woman's decision will have to be made with the absence of a partner in mind.
However, if a father (and mother) agree to support a human child then they should be legally obligated to do so, because after the birth of the child there is another human being who's rights have to be considered.
[–]mkmkmk1028 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yeah i think the solution is in making sure people have access to preventative birth control and for the love of god getting rid of abstinence only education can't tell you the number of grown adults ive met who truly have no idea how sex works
[–]Bartab 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Better written:
If a man walks out on a woman, he is exercising a choice.
If a woman gets an abortion, or doesn't get an abortion, she is exercising a choice.
[+]SkyWulf -12 points-11 points-10 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't think that's the point at all. Besides, it's not really the man's decision because he's not putting his body on the line. Pregnancy is life changing and nobody should be forced to bring a baby to term just because the father wanted to.
TL;DR - tough shit for daddy because his bodily commitment ends at orgasm.
[–]some_a_hole 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
No it doesn't end there. The bodily commitment of giving many hours of labor's wages for up to 18 years is legally out of the male's hands past orgasm.
[–]SkyWulf -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am not arguing financial commitment. It's not the same as carrying a child to term. Plus if the mother ends up caring for the child she also has this financial burden.
[–]some_a_hole 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, the amount of hours doing terrible jobs, like coal-mining for 18 years to pay child support would be worse than going through pregnancy then giving birth, but that doesn't matter because I'm not arguing that either people should have to do something against their will. SivebySive's point I think was that the father, if a willing parent, equally loses a child if the mother decides to abort, as the mother would lose a child if forced to abort. But in our society we don't empathize with the male's perspective in these common scenarios.
The other major point is that unlike what you said, the mother can't just "end up" with the child in any way at that early of a stage. When she learns she is pregnant, it is completely her choice whether or not she keeps the child, aborts, or gives the child to adoption. The guy has no choice in the matter. It's unfair that he may have to pay child support even if completely against having the baby. At that point it's her choice, sure, but she should have the responsibility if she decides to keep the baby and the guy decides not to.
[–]1boytoy1 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To me it makes perfect sense, because it's about the level of choice the parents have in this life controling-decision. If the dad doesn't want to be bound for the rest of his life, he shouldn't have to. Simple.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (75 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bartab 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link
Yes, the point here is the child, not the parents.
First two trimesters there is no child. It has no rights. Notifying the mother that that ball of cells that has no rights will not be supported by the father should be sufficient legal notification.
I'd argue for "pay for half an abortion, regardless of if the mother decides on an abortion" as fair. Nothing more.
[–]KingMinish 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link
It's not just a "ball of cells," it's a unique set of genetic instructions, a definitively separate entity from either parent. I don't understand how people can actually think it's a part of the woman's body. It's about as much a part of her body as tapeworm or something.
[–]Hypersapien 19 points20 points21 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link
Does a set of genetic instructions have rights?
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
If it doesn't have rights, that means it's merely part of the woman's body and her property. So if she wants, does that mean she could have a doctor go into her womb and chop off the "genetic instructions" leg? I mean. It's only instructions, and it's her leg.
[–]some_a_hole 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
That's a retarded argument because in your hypothetical the woman plans to give birth.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
how does that change anything if it's her property?
[–]some_a_hole 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
The same reason why scientists aren't allowed to make horrible mutations of people from petri dishes. There is planning to fuck up a person. It's like planning to cut of a person's leg in the months ahead. That's morally wrong.
[–]ColonelVirus -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's morally wrong at the moment. Personally I'm all for cloning and scientists creating humans, even better if they can make "dummy" clones and work out a way of transfer our consciousness across to them. Effectively we'd never die so long as we have a back up clone in the wings.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
There is planning to fuck up a person.
If a woman has the right to "control" her body and abort the fetus, why does she not have the right to alter it as well?
[+]KingMinish -11 points-10 points-9 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
It does if that set of genetic instructions is human and performing life processes. All humans are the result of perpetually functioning genetic instructions.
Sperm are genetic instructions, but have no rights because they are incomplete and are not self-reliant. Same goes for unfertilized eggs.
[–]Hypersapien 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
So what if, decades from now, we create a computer that is fully sentient. It is aware of itself and its own existence. It has emotions and creativity.
Would it have rights?
[–]thesirblondie -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's not only a question for philosophers, but an entire branch of philosopy.
My personal opinion is that once we have computers/robots with fully sentient AI, who can express emotions and creativity, they should have rights. Not necessarily the same rights as humans (because that doesn't make sense in some cases), but similar.
[–]GhostBeezer 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The computers cannot be given the right to bear arms!
[+]KingMinish -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
That's our to judge, when the time comes.
[–]Hypersapien 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
To me, there is no question. It would absolutely have rights.
Rights are not granted on the basis of what kind of DNA, if any, something has. They are based on the existence and level of cognitive functions.
[–]dantedivolo -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So some people with Downs should have no rights. Or people with some of the more extreme mental retardations.
[–]Bartab 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand how people can actually think it's a part of the woman's body.
Strawman.
I never said it was part of the woman's body. In fact, the "ball of cells" and "has no rights" are a distinct statement of absolute separation from the woman's body.
Make some attempt to read what was actually written and not what you find easier to argue against.
[–]KingMinish -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
The statement "ball of cells that has no rights" as I've commonly understood it, extends from the idea that that "ball of cells" is an extension of the woman somehow, giving her the right to destroy it should she please. Call it a straw man if you like, it was the argument I thought that you were implying, although you presented your belief as fact rather than as an argument.
I read what you wrote. It's a prime example of modern, selfish misinterpretation and self-centeredness at the expense of others and society.
[–]Bartab 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
The statement "ball of cells that has no rights" as I've commonly understood it,
And "as you commonly understand it" is understanding it wrong.
No part of a woman's body is a "ball of cells that has no rights". Thus, for something to be properly described as such, it cannot be a part of a woman's body.
yawn You should try a non-modern era, and find how selfish and self centered people are in an entire era where food isn't plentiful. It's only modern reality, with lots of toys and fat bellies, that lets you sit back and declare other people selfish.
[–]KingMinish 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Does your left pinky have rights, or do you have rights? Your pinky is an amalgam of cells too, right? Human cells? Does your left pinky not having rights make it not a part of your body, or does it being a part of your body give you the right to control it?
I would describe a pinky as being simultaneously a part of your body, and having no rights of it's own. The right to control it is yours. Hence, if you believe a woman has the right to control the fate of an unborn person, you believe that said unborn person is a part of the woman.
Except, as you have just stated, that "ball of cells" is not a part of the woman's body.
I called you selfish, which you are, because you want to go out and fuck people without repercussions. Then, if shit catches up to you, as it should, and somebody gets pregnant, you don't want to be responsible. You would rather that infants be classified as inhuman, so that you can kill them. Prime fucking example of selfishness.
[–]Bartab 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Does your left pinky have rights, or do you have rights?
My left pinky is not a ball of cells.
I called you selfish, which you are, because you want to go out and fuck people without repercussions.
Just like a woman.
[–]KingMinish 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
A fetus is also not a ball of cells. It's an extremely complex system that can turn the food from your pantry into a life-sized human being. If anything, your pinky is much less complex, and much less valuable. So why do we afford the fetus less protections? I'll tell you.
Because we're selfish and we have power over it. Because killing it makes our lives easier, if we can only argue out of the morality of the decision.
No need to be sexist here, friend. Nobody should be able to fuck people without repercussions. Everything has consequences.
[–]ahora -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
There is no reason to think that ball of cells is less than a another ball of cells (a full human).
[–]Bartab 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
There's plenty of reason. Starting with it's not self supporting or has an appreciable mind.
In fact, it's less self supporting than a brain dead body, which is properly termed a corpse.
[–]MonkeyBeach -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Well, a better example would be to say it is like a brain dead body that under most circumstances, given nine months, will become a human with full brain function. So, if a woman goes into a coma and the doctors give her a %99 chance of recovery given a relatively short amount of time, we should still deem her a corpse without rights?
[–]Bartab 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, a better example would be to say it is like a brain dead body that under most circumstances, given nine months, will become a human with full brain function.
Future status is not relevant to rights at the point of abortion.
doctors give her a %99 chance of recovery
Brain death is death. It has 0% chance of recovery. Brain death is not a coma. Recovery would be a literal proof of religious higher power and intervention. The brain does not "restart".
Coma patients have rights. They have brain activity. Coma patients in a coma for decades (which also, doesn't happen) still have rights decades later.
Terri Schiavo was not brain dead and still was allowed to die. Certainly, she'd warrant higher rights than a ball of cells incapable of independent biological survival. All she needed was a feeding tube.
[–]MonkeyBeach 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are right about the brain death, you don't come back from that. I should have taken more time to write out my comment. But I still think I have some valid points I can make.
You say future status is not relevant to the rights at the point of abortion. Why do you think that? What are you reasons? Is future status ever relevant, and if so at what point does it become so?
Without interference, Terri Schiavo would have died naturally. Without interference, a zygote will often become a fetus, and then become an infant, and then become an adult.
You seem to stress that dependency illegitimizes any of fetus' rights. Would that be fair to say? But while a fetus is entirely dependent on it's mother, infants are also entirely dependent. And many adults are entirely dependent on others. What in your mind is the difference in the degrees of dependency?
[–]some_a_hole 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Post-conception, most zygotes actually die.
If you play the game of, "the chances are a person would be made past the zygote stage," then looking at your argument on a time-line, you should agree that every time you wear a condom, you end the potential life of a potential person. Intercourse gives us a what, 1-2% chance of making a person? So you've probably already ended the possibility of atleast 1 or 2 people's lives. Your sperm is a cell, the egg is a cell. When they make a zygote that's another cell. It's nothing to give a shit about because you've already been practicing being pro-choice for years.
[–]MonkeyBeach 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Whether or not most zygotes die naturally should not play a part in whether or not we should be able to unnaturally terminate. It has a completely unique human, genetic heritage and if it is viable it should be granted human rights. Sperm and Egg are nothing like a zygote. They will never become anything else without direct outside forces.
[–]some_a_hole 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't think you countered my argument about how you've been ending potential people's lives regularly already.
If a sperm is stopped a half second before seeding an egg, and if an egg a half second after becoming seeded dies, the same outcome results for the potential person. Using contraceptives is acting with a pro-choice philosophy. Hard-core catholics know this, which is why they have so many offspring.
Remember, if your parents used contraceptives that one time you wouldn't be here. You'd be equally as non-existent as if your parents aborted you.
But I am not actually concerned with "potential humans". There are an infinite possibility of "potential humans" from the number of eggs and sperm that exist and all the combinations that could be made between them.
I am concerned with what actually is human. A zygote is genetically a unique human-being, and should be granted human rights (such as the right to life). If you want to argue that a zygote is not a human-being, you can make a case for that.
(By the way, thanks for taking the time to respond to me :) It is always enjoyable discussing ideas, even if we disagree)
[–]nlakes 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
At least someone here gets it.
[–]Bartab 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
For some definitions of "looks human" with no actual connection with looking human, sure.
Without support from 2 parents, that child is going to have a poor start at life.
Why just two? And why just the parents?
but the child is a person as well.
Unless the mother decides it's not a child, then it's a fetus and disposable.
[+][deleted] -13 points-12 points-11 points 12 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry, but If a child is unborn and undeveloped, it's still the woman's body. The woman can do what she wants. Abortion is a right, not a political debate.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I completely agree - not sure why you think I meant otherwise?
[–]lonelylunar 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Just like its a right to be able to decide not to be a fatger and walk away, he's not a deadbeat he's just deciding he's not ready to be a parent, there will ALWAYS be someone raising the child even if both parents opt out. It might be a bad decision mortally but that's not for us to decide its their choice and that's all life is; is people making choices, does it cause ripples? Sure but the ones they affect make choices to overcome the situation and move on to make choices of their own.
TL;DR - Even if both parents opt out it's THEIR choice to make, whatever the outcome if it so happens to be a child then it will be taken care of and raised by others till it can take care of itself and somebody will ALWAYS love this child no matter what.
[–]nerdscallmegeek 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
you've never been a foster kid or a child of a single parent have you?
[–]lonelylunar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes I am, what does that have to do with anything?
[–]nerdscallmegeek -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Foster kids don't always grow up in a loving home. Few do.
And it's not just about a loving home, if a dad decides to walk out on his kids, he's dooming them to a life of poverty.
Sure, use your right as a man to just walk away from your kids. You're still a piece of shit.
[–]lonelylunar 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
And that's YOUR opinion, so good for you
[–]nerdscallmegeek -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
And you have your opinion. All of this bullshit is a matter of opinion. Congratulations.
[–]lonelylunar 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You're a jackass
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree, and I never said the father would be a deadbeat. My dad left me when I was a kid, and my mom never said he was a deadbeat, she told me he was a great person, but he wasn't the kind of person who was able to raise kids and give them his full attention. But at the same time, I would have felt less left out as a kid if he was in my life. Bottom line, it's BOTH man and woman's choice. If the father leaves, and the woman doesn't get an abortion, that's HER choice to be a single mom, he's not forcing her to keep it, he just knows he won't do good or he's scared. If he leaves and she gets an abortion, that doesn't make him a bad person either. Neither parties should commit to something as special as a humans life if neither are ready. It's common sense that a lot of people don't seem to have.
[–]lonelylunar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well I'm not entirely sure about the last part, a couple might THINK they're ready but turn out not to be isn't a big deal. Just because a child was made in the process of a bad decision doesn't necessarily mean the child doesn't have a place to go or where it belongs. I also grew up without a father, my mother raised me herself and I never once met or talked to him but that doesn't make me feel and anger, hatred, or like I missed out on ANYTHING
[–]ametalshard 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
How is an unborn child a woman's body? I honestly don't understand.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's her body until the umbilical cord is cut. Literally, they're connected by cells. Once the baby is developed, has a brain, blah blah blah, then the woman is sharing her body. But they're not indifferent. Let's say this- a girl gets pregnant at 16, it's her own fault and the guys fault she's pregnant. The way I see it, it's sacrifice one to save two. The 16 year old keeps the baby, and the father-even though he's unwilling- stays around to try and support the baby. The woman and man spend all their money and time taking care of the baby, so they don't have time to grow up themselves. Neither parent has a career, moms always working, dad always drinking (or vise versa) and the kid doesn't end up having a good life. Gets into drugs, and gets a girl pregnant at 16. The story repeats. If someone isn't emotionally ready to raise a child to be the best it can be, they shouldn't be forced to keep it. Bottom line.
[–]SolarJeune 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To play semantics , the umbilical cord comes near the mother, but does not intermix. Every part of the fetus is inside but separate from the mother.
[–]Endless_Summer 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And if the man has no say, he shouldn't have to pay.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
A man can do it, why not a woman, human rights, my friend.
[–]selfsufficientnigga 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
A man can not do it, that is the point. Are you intentionally avoiding my point, or do you not understand it?
Once a child is born, mother can extricate herself from any financial obligations to it, and noone can force her to continue paying for the baby's needs.
Men don't have such an option, and they are always on the hook for child support.
Do you have an argument against that, or will you continue to pretend that 'human rights' is an argument for your side and not for mine?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I actually didn't understand your point, but you're right. A man should not be obligated to pay for a child if he wanted it aborted in the first place, but if he were to be happy about the pregnancy, be there for 3 years and then bail, yeah, he should have to pay something.
[–]lobby87 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Man should be able to disclaim child at the time when abortion is still possible as only woman is able to decide if she want abortion. If man cannot have vote on abortion woman shouldn't be able to force fatherhood on him.
Wow, don't tell me you missed the point this bad everytime.
The woman has a choice when she gets pregnant and the man has none, even though the responsibility and actions leading to pregnancy are shared equally.
Not sure why you think it doesn't make sense when it's spot on...
[+]TheLiberatedMan -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, the father is murdering no one, the mother is.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Abortion isn't murder.
[+]SpiritofJames -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yes it is.
[–]some_a_hole -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Is wearing a condom murder? You're destroying the potential of a person being born.
Abortion is the same as wearing a condom at a later time. In both instances you're killing cells that would have become a person.
Now go think about what you've done.
[–]SpiritofJames 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Did you ever take Biology... even in high-school? A sperm is a haploid cell... incomplete and incapable of reproducing except in combination with an egg. And once fertilized, an egg becomes a unique diploid cell that will reproduce, creating a multi-cellular organism with its own unique DNA - an individual human embryo.
Abortion is the same as wearing a condom at a later time.
No it is not. Abortion is killing an organism that has the potential to become (if you don't consider it already to be) a unique, independent human being - totally unlike a sperm or unfertilized egg.
You clearly haven't done much of that.
[–]some_a_hole -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Like I said, you're destroying the potential of a person being born when you either wear a condom, or abort.
A zygote is the potential of a baby being born (no zygotes aren't destined to develop, most don't make it even close to birth). The sperm and egg, separated, especially when the people are having sex, also have the potential for a baby being born. In other words, you were once a sperm and egg separate. That was you. And you would have been equally non-existent if aborted at a month as if your parents used contraception.
Looking at the popular anti-abortion argument on a time-line, it's not consistent. Especially your argument which focuses on unique DNA. That would make every one of the mutated sperm in my balls to be somehow important. So the sperm in my balls right now have less of a chance to become a person. So? Think of the Potential Future Person who will not be born because I'm going to use a condom. The potential future zygote and the current sperm and egg are all cells, part of a potential person, and none of them are going to make it.
[–]TomHicks 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A sperm if left as is, does not have potential to become a human. A human embryo, if left as is, will become a human.
[–]some_a_hole 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not true, a zygote (conceived eggs) most likely do not develop into a person. They most likely have fatal genetic disorders which stop its development very early, and are aborted naturally by the body.
Sperm and eggs separate, and healthy zygotes, both have the potential to become a born baby. In fact, by not having as many children as possible, you are choosing to end many potential lives. You're then a practicing pro-choice enthusiast.
[–]SpiritofJames 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You clearly can't comprehend my argument. Please consider retaking your remedial high school biology.
[–]some_a_hole -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So if a zygote has a 0 percent chance of developing into a person, say it is a mutation without mitochondria, or has some other fatal genetic disorder (which most conceived eggs do and so are aborted naturally), is that a person? What do you name it? I'd vote for Speck, or Dot, Dotty.
[–]thefran -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
This argument is actually why I am not part of the men's rights activism movement.
My father abandoned my family immediately after getting my mother pregnant, and then engaged in shenanigans to pay as little child support as possible (he's very rich).
I do not support any movement that implies that he is in the right and should be legally and morally allowed to do what he did.
I am for people taking responsibility for their actions.
[–]Endless_Summer -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
How the fuck is this concern troll the top comment on this thread? Gtfo with that false equivalence bullshit.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Wow, someone's getting mad.
[–]Endless_Summer -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wow, someone's deflecting.
[–]Revoran 22 points23 points24 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
There is a nasty double standard, agreed.
However, unfortunately due to biology this is one area where men and women just are not equal.
Maybe in the future they will invent artificial/mechanical wombs so that there is no need for abortions, and then there will be no excuse for this double standard.
[–]Lurker_IV 20 points21 points22 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Or there will be very reliable male contraceptives. http://www.newmalecontraception.org/vasalgel/
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They are matching funds upto $37,000 right now you can contribute at: http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/vasalgel-home/
They are in primate studies in the USA now.
[–]niggelprease 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Biology is unequal but that doesn't mean we can't level the legal playing field.
[–]some_a_hole 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If child support exists, I'm wondering about the possibility of "health care support." If I get a women pregnant and she now has a financial liability that I contributed to, shouldn't a women who gives me an STD help pay for my health care costs associated with the disease?
[–]Bartab 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
No, it's because of laws that this is an area where men and women "just are not equal."
Likewise, laws can be adopted to make it equal.
[–]Neckbeard_The_Great 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I think that he's talking about the physical part. A woman should be able to get an abortion. A man should not be able to force a woman to get an abortion. Both should be able (with some restrictions) to give up their claim to raising the child and their responsibility to raise the child.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Easily rectified by law. See the same logical solution that is posted on every thread like this one. Give females the right to abort (☑) and give males the right to surrender parenthood before the time threshold for the female to reasonably abort or within n days of the male discovering that he is, or will potentially become, a father (☐).
[–]Neckbeard_The_Great 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Pretty sure I've posted that solution myself in other threads.
[–]Bartab 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A man should not be able to force a woman to get an abortion.
Strawman
At no point by myself or in the originally sourced comic has the claim been made that men should be able to force a woman to get an abortion.
I didn't mean to imply that you thought or said that, only that that was the original point about the biological inequality.
[–]Revoran 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
why is a woman allowed to abandon the baby after birth, through Safe Haven laws/giving it up for adoption?
Absolutely. That is a much better comparison.
[–]Tastysalad101 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The man should be able to give up his parental rights like how you do for adoption he is no longer responsible for the child but he has no right to see it again until child is 18+
[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
People who should be made to be parents:
That is the whole list.
[–]imrightandyournot[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
that link is great , thanks ....
[–]unbannable9412 -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That thread...yikes.
She gave it up for adoption?
[–]Mister_Kurtz 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What we need is a birth control pill for men.
[–]bridgecrewdave 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It was all the other times it was posted too
[–]pretzelzetzel 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, because everyone in mainstream society is so super-supportive of abortion.
[–]3rg0s4m 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I agree that morally we should not view the mother and father any different. But a child doesn't deserve to be raised in poverty due to a philosophical point.
[–]WordsNotToLiveBy 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A child also doesn't deserve to be raised by parents who dislike one another and argue over said child for the rest of it's pre-adult life.
The state can give the necessary financial support. Where in the developed world does this not occur already, if there is no child support coming in from the father for whatever reason?
[+]lonelylunar -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nobody ever said anything about how the child would be raised but it would be raised and loved nonetheless so it doesn't really matter.
Too true. Women are blameless in today's society.
[–]junkeee999 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I understand the sentiment represented here. But I feel the alternative being suggested is worse. I have asked several times in discussions if people really want a non-custodial parent to have a legal right to simply opt out of child support. I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to that question.
[–]lobby87 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
As we are speaking about abortion here I would assume we are speaking about opting out at the time when abortion is still possible.
If two people equally cause something and only one can choose to undo it, that persons shouldn't be able to force the other one to take responsibility as other one is not able to choose. Nobody should be able to force responsibility on somebody else in such situation. If only one person have right to choose, only that person should take responsibility for its decision, if nobody else would took it voluntary.
If woman can have abortion and opt out from having child at all, man should at least have right to decline child and any responsibility for it at that time abortion is still an option. Then if woman still want to keep the child, it is her choice not his so it should be her responsibility. If society think it is important the child is supported enough it should support the child (in similar way orphan is supported), not force the guy that never intended to have it while woman could have chose whether she wanted this responsibility.
[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes what you describe is the standard reply. But my question is what would stop every father of an accidental pregnancy from immediately filing the 'abortion clause' to release him from all financial responsibility? By this system, no noncustodial parent of an accidental pregnancy would pay child support, ever. Because the abortion waiver would become automatic. it would get evoked constantly.
To take it further what would stop men from refusing to take any responsibility for birth control? Just go around spreading your seed and if someone gets pregnant, so what, fill out a quick abortion form and move on to the next one night stand.
I just don't see this as a workable alternative. If you have sex, you should be prepared that there is ALWAYS a chance, however remote that you could become a parent. There is no constitutional right to sex without parenthood. It is a goal to be pursued, sure. But it's not up to society to make it your right.
[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
There is no constitutional right to sex without parenthood.
Women have this right as they can have abortion or take pill after.
[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yes what you describe is the standard reply. But my question is what would stop every father of an accidental pregnancy from immediately filing the 'abortion clause' to release him from all financial responsibility? By this system, no noncustodial parent of an accidental pregnancy would ever pay child support, ever.
What will stop him? Nothing but himself, and that is okay as we gave this possibility to woman. I get it is harder for woman to go for abortion that for guy to say he don't want it. But this doesn't give us right to force responsibility on both when only one can choose. In the end it is that woman who choose to give birth to fatherless child not the father. We should have thought about this when we gave one party right to choose for both.
To take it further what would stop men from refusing to take any responsibility for birth control? Just go around spreading your seed and someone gets pregnant, so what, fill out a quick abortion form and move on.
Woman have many ways of birth control too so I don't see this as problem, if you don't want abortion and don't want child use protection. If it fails? That is the risk you are taking, when you know you don't want abortion and having sex with somebody who doesn't wan't child.
I just don't see this as a workable alternative.
What we have now is not really workable to.
[–]iceybluesteel 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
"We should have thought about this when we gave one party right to choose for both"
We didn't "choose" to give one party the right to choose for both. Women can get pregnant and men can't, it's basic biology. Some people believe a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps the fetus' right to life; men don't play a huge role in this decision. I know it seems unfair, but women have a special privilege (abortion) as a result of being able to get pregnant. I think you're confusing being equal to being the same.
[–]russetpotat0 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, if it's accidental, what's the problem with filing every time? We want to reduce accidental pregnancies, because an accident implies the people (or at least one person) was not ready. A couple needs to have this discussion if they want to expect child. Women already have the option to opt out every time so how is this different?
On the birth control point, sex is a consensual activity between two adults. What makes you think the woman can't just tell the man she's not going to have sex unless he gloves his member? Men don't just get to jam it in, that's a rape.
Right now women know what's at stake when they choose to have sex, men don't. Women can see a condom, they know if they're on hormonal BC and if they've missed some, they know if they have an IUD or are off their cycle. Men have her word and a condom and that's it, and no plan B/RU486/Abortion/Adoption/Safe Drop if things go wrong.
[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Here's what it boils down to. You are pissed because women can choose abortion and men can't. Fine I understand that. And I agree men should have a voice in the decision. But here's the dilemma. It's a democracy of two. And you can see the inherent problem there. How do you break ties? Well to me the tiebreaker in abortion is, it does effect the woman slightly more because it's her body. So that gives the edge to her. So a democracy of two with a tiebreaker always on one side is in effect logically the same as just saying the decision belongs to the one person.
Fine, men's rights says, have the baby but I'm not paying because I signed an abortion card or something. But the clear loser there, the one men's rights does not consider, is the baby. It's not all just about he vs. she. There's another human being involved who has a right to the support of both parents. regardless of how or why he or she came into the world.
I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm not saying there aren't facets of it which suck. But it's just not so simple as signing an abortion card to solve all these problems.
[–]godwotan 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
we need to perfect in-vitro pregnancy so that a child could be conceived outside human body, then this debate will be over :)
[–]mirazatha 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The first successful transplant of a flash-cloned trachea has already happened, so this might be closer than you would think
This comic is comparing Apples to Oranges. A better comparison would a Man leaving the Woman pregnant vs A Woman who put her kids up for adoption.
[–]whywowee 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately, this is something that should be considered before the act of potential conception. Is it fair for a woman to hold a one-time or part-time partner to fatherhood? No. Is it fair for a man to skip out on the labor and nurturing of an unplanned child? Also, no. We need to be more understanding as men and women that children have a right to full time, consenting parents. I love this sub-reddit and am an avid men's rights supporter, but we all need to agree that we are responsible for our actions--especially when it come to procreation events. Agree to abort or to support.
[–]lonelylunar -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This type of double standard shit pisses me off
[–]zNzN -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
am i the only one who thinks abortion is wrong under any circumstance?
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Im pissed that this has 800+ likes. Ive seen it twice here before and have it saved on my phone from the first time. /butthurt
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Greatness. Source...?
[–]imrightandyournot[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
it was randomly posted on this NSFW forum i like here ... http://www.uselessjunk.net/showthread.php?342040-lolz-NSFW/page1352
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
and she could have insisted on a condom or been on the pill or took the morning after pill. all before abortion came into play at all.
[–]xTerraH 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. If people were responsible, they wouldn't even need to consider abortion.
[–]mirazatha 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Except in cases where the condom breaks or other forms of birth control don't work. Nothing is 100% sure except abstinence
[–]xTerraH 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very,very rare that that would happen though.
[–]scanspeak 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The hypocrisy in your statement is unbelievable.
[+][deleted] -10 points-9 points-8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Nice thanks for giving me morw time wasting fuel
[–]imrightandyournot[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
that thread gets updated a lot
[+]imrightandyournot[S] -13 points-12 points-11 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
you guys are reading too far into a silly comic ...
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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[–]ametalshard 4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SolarJeune 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Endless_Summer 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]selfsufficientnigga 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]lobby87 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Endless_Summer 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]TheLiberatedMan -8 points-7 points-6 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[+]SpiritofJames -8 points-7 points-6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]some_a_hole -2 points-1 points0 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]SpiritofJames 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]some_a_hole -3 points-2 points-1 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]TomHicks 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]some_a_hole 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SpiritofJames 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]some_a_hole -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]thefran -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Endless_Summer -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Endless_Summer -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Revoran 22 points23 points24 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]Lurker_IV 20 points21 points22 points (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]niggelprease 13 points14 points15 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]some_a_hole 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bartab 6 points7 points8 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Neckbeard_The_Great 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Neckbeard_The_Great 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bartab 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Neckbeard_The_Great 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Revoran 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Tastysalad101 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]imrightandyournot[S] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]unbannable9412 -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Mister_Kurtz 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bridgecrewdave 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]pretzelzetzel 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]3rg0s4m 4 points5 points6 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]WordsNotToLiveBy 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]lonelylunar -8 points-7 points-6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]junkeee999 1 point2 points3 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]lobby87 -1 points0 points1 point (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]iceybluesteel 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]russetpotat0 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]godwotan 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]mirazatha 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]whywowee 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]lonelylunar -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]zNzN -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]imrightandyournot[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]xTerraH 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]mirazatha 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]xTerraH 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]scanspeak 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -10 points-9 points-8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]imrightandyournot[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]imrightandyournot[S] -13 points-12 points-11 points (0 children) | Copy Link