Wise words | MensRights

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Except it kind of is.

You see, there are women who are lesbians because they are primarily attracted to women.

And there are women who are lesbians for political reasons. Not because they are drawn to women, but because they wish to avoid men.

The way to spot the difference is to look for the hatred and fear. Someone who is truly homosexual has little or no reason to hate or fear the opposite sex; since they need nothing from them on a personal level, they have little vulnerability to abuse or exploitation by them.

Gay men generally can't be friendzoned, turned into orbiters, or emotionally abused by toxic women. They are immune to paternity fraud, less vulnerable to false rape accusations, and so on. And same sort of pattern holds true for lesbians.

So when I see a woman, who describes herself as a lesbian separatist, I usually suspect I'm seeing a frustrated heterosexual. A woman for whom male sexuality is an object of desire, but an object of desire that is too frightening, too threatening, too powerful and self-willed and scary, to reach out for.

And what is it that people do with objects of desire which are also threatening? People attempt to control those objects.

That's what all this business about reducing the male population and castration and so forth. It's an attempt to control the threatening object of desire. If you go and read "femitheist"s fantasies about "international castration day", it's easy to see the sexual fetishism. In fact, given some of the details, it's hard to imagine that she wasn't masturbating when she wrote it.

One can even go a step further and postulate that in some cases, all this obsession with "male violence" isn't quite unsexual, either. Sometimes, the lady doth protest too much.

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[–]Falkner09-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And there are women who are lesbians for political reasons. Not because they are drawn to women, but because they wish to avoid men.|

Not really. These are really just lesbians due tot he normal reasons; the thing is, some lesbians who become radical feminists forget that not everyone else is like them. After people stay in their minority groups with only like-minded people for long enough, some of them begin to see the world through their lens, and soem of these women who don't need men, begin to rationalize that the world would actually work without men, and that most other women only like men because they have some kind of battered wife syndrome, and they could be persuaded to "liberate" themselves from men by choosing to be lesbians, as if that were actually possible.

It's not unheard of to find some of these groups who openly advocate using abortion and testing to decrease the population of men to only a small group, existing only for the purpose of donating sperm to be donated for in vitro fertilization purposes. They get so caught up in their tiny groups, they actually believe this would happen, and that if it could happen, that people would be able to afford it.

They forget that most women do not want to live without male partners, nor could they if they wanted to, what with heterosexuality being the norm. It's kind of like a rich person who says, "why don't poor people don't just borrow money from their rich parents to start a business, instead of living off food stamps?"

Basically, it's rich lesbian privilege.

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[–]parannoyedandroid5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Dude.

I agree with you on one point - people get so caught up in their small groups they believe that a majority of people could, would, or are capable of feeling the same as them.

This is what kills me about feminists; because of religion (and other things of course, it's just a prime example) 50%+ of other women DON'T GIVE A SHIT about your rights.

The VA ultrasound bill, that wanted to require women to have a transvaginal exam prior to receiving an abortion? That was backed and supported by women, not just a bunch of old men!

They are insane to think that everyone feels or could feel the same way they do. And it greatly influences how enamored and pushy they get with some of their ideals. It's crazy. Most people are not you... And most people don't care about your issues and what you believe in.

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[–]poop_dawg5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seriously. People (especially women) are not going to take this movement seriously when a lot of front-page posts are ignorance/stereotype-filled. It's blatant hypocrisy. I feel like all too often I read something to the effect of, "I'm a man, and I don't like being stereotyped because of my gender, but let me stereotype ALL feminists negatively."

SOME feminists are like what this woman is describing. Some. Then, there are feminists like myself who are legit concerned with gender equality and will stand up against prejudice geared towards either gender. I consider myself a feminist and an MRA.

I'm really getting annoyed of seeing these ignorant feminist-hating posts at the top of the front page of this sub. You guys won me over a long time ago, but you're pushing other potential supporters away.

Remember, feminist does not always equal "feminazi."

[–]Manatee7474-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]poop_dawg6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, that's not what feminism is. Although I agree that the term "feminism" is inherently unequal because it's aimed towards a single gender, the movement itself stemmed from people believing that women deserve the same modern social equalities as men at a time when they didn't have them (most schools go over this in high school history. Remember the civil rights movement?). The movement was/is supposed to be geared towards equality, not towards women chopping men's balls off and taking over the world.

Yes, there are people who fuck it up and use it as an excuse for the perpetuation of misandry. There are also plenty of people who fuck up the MR movement by being misogynists. Do I judge the entire movement based on those few ignorant hang-arounds? No, I understand that obviously the movement is centered around the fair treatment and understanding of the male gender. I ask you use the same reasoning when you decide to pick and choose who you believe to be a real feminist.

If you can't be fair about it, then I recommend you check out /r/TheRedPill, because /r/mensrights is dedicated to equality, not prejudice.

edit: forgot some words

[–]CrossHook-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]poop_dawg6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is why you guys don't get more female supporters. Feminism was women's attempt to be equal and it's bashed all over the place here.

There are obviously people who are going to take a movement and run with it in the wrong direction, but to bash the entire movement based upon those few idiots is ludacris.

I would trust my own understanding of feminism much more over yours because I come from an objective point of view. I'm an MRA and a feminist. Not some red pill swallowing misogynist, nor a man-hating feminazi. You on the other hand, seem to have come to some very negative conclusions about this sub's sister movement, which is unfortunate. People need to realize that hatred will never beget true equality.

I thought MR activism was about men's rights... not hating feminism.

edit: more word stuff

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[–]demiurgency33 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The problem is that so many young women feel so powerless that they hear the lesbian feminists demonizing men and they jump in on the action.

I have to disagree. I don't think powerlessness is the root of feminists hatred for men.

I believe everyone hates. It's inherent to human nature. Hate is natural. Hate is fun, especially when we can find a gang to commiserate with. As a young student, I hated jocks and Americans (I'm Canadian). As a 40 year old libertarian/mra, I now hate big-government socialists and feminists.

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about seething hatred here, or rage, but mild hatred. Hatred which is just one step up from annoyance.

It's society's role to instruct us that hate is not acceptable and to correct our naturally-formed attitudes. The best cure for hatred is respect. I got over my early hatreds by going to university, making friends, respecting them, and then learning that some of them are jocks, or Americans, or both. Then I learned I was being a dick, and corrected my attitude.

The inherent problem with feminism is it collects people who naturally hate men (which is fine), but then instead of correcting the attitude, encourages it. Feminism has canonized that the hatred of men is justified, and to be ~~encouraged~~ not discouraged. It professes patriarchy as unilaterally bad; patriarchy is not something to be respected and then improved upon, it is something to be smashed, torn down, rooted out. Any societal advances it has brought about are disregarded. Only its evils are to be mentioned.

Hate is not acceptable in our society, and we correct ourselves. That's human growth, and it makes us more capable, responsible members of society. Feminism, however, is a shelter for people who hate men, or maleness, or patriarchy. I'm not trying to say that all feminists hate men. I don't believe that. But I do believe feminism is a safe space for people who do hate men to not have that hatred challenged.

[–]AlexReynard8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]demiurgency4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's so many varied levels of hatred. For sure, both powerlessness and fear are prime motivators of hatred. But I think hatred can easily exist without either.

Let me clarify our context here. I think we're both agreeing on the following statement: (Some) feminists hate men.

We're not talking about a kind of hatred where they would actually go out and do physical harm on men. It takes an enormous amount of hatred to go that far. Sure there's Valerie Solanas who shot three men, but she's the exception, not the rule.

The kind of hatred we're discussing here lies in the realm of petty revenge, of vicious gossip. At its worst, it manifests itself as standing by (and/or encouraging) as society strips away legal protections for men, or redistributes wealth or success from men and to women. It's a very minor form of hatred. Of course, the nature of hatred is minor hatred, left unchecked, snowballs into deeper, more dangerous, hatred. And I believe it's the great role of the MHRM to prevent this from happening.

I agree with your general point that many young women fear men, and this is often the root of the hatred. I just don't believe it's a necessary part of the equation. I think hatred for those who are different is just so naturally-forming, that unless corrected by society, it can generate even without the presence of fear, or powerlessness.

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[–]demiurgency7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Exactly, and there's some forms of hatred that are socially (and morally) acceptable. And there's many that's not.

Here in the MRHM, we often point out the following distinction. Generally, we hate feminists. But that's ok, because that's hating an ideology, and hating the fact that some people choose to embrace that ideology.

On the other side, we point out that (some) feminists hate men. And that's not ok, because you don't choose to be a man or not.

It's in our general social consensus that it is ok to hate things people are by choice, but it's not ok to hate things that people do not get to choose (sex, race, nationality). Religion happens to be an interesting intersect between these two, because you can argue that religion is chosen. You can also make a good case that it's something you're generally born into (like nationality).

But yeah. Totally ok to hate people who cheat in online games.

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[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm assuming you're talking about PVP areas. PVP wasn't something I very often got interested in, though when I did, defense was always the area where I put in the most developmental effort, because as you pointed out, not being able to hit the character kind of hamstrings characters who focus on attack. It leaves the defended character able to withstand attacks while whittling the attacker down. That does explain the resentment, though... a lot of younger players don't understand the difference between superior tactics and cheating, and they hate it when your strategy makes the thing they worked so hard to build useless.

I'm not greatly surprised to learn that Runescape didn't make it. My interest in it really had more to do with my son wanting to play. He lost interest, and then I migrated for a bit to Mabinogi along with my stepdaughters. Playing that was an opportunity to get to spend time with them while they were away, but that also died down when their lives became busier as adults. My character is probably still contained in the system, but I don't even have the software on my computer any more.

[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The way RuneScape worked was that there was attack which made you more accurate strength which made you hit harder and defence which made you harder to hit, strength pures would often have less than 20 attack 1 defence and 99 strength, meanwhile anyone with 50 in each (everyone and their mother) could kick a pures ass, it was freaking pathetic when I left (when Jagex gave my account away...) how on the border to the PvP zone there would always be like 50+ pures fighting each other and then running/teleporting away at low health so nobody gained anything ever, then you'd once and a while see all 50 of them sitting on the border (literally) while a mage tank sat 20 spaces off taunting them.

a lot of younger players don't understand the difference between superior tactics and cheating

At least that's understandable, but what's not is when people who are in their teens and 20's use 3rd party software, admit to cheating and admit to sucking but still do it, they're like videogame masochist trolls.

I'm not greatly surprised to learn that Runescape didn't make it.

I am, the game was doing amazingly well up until about mid 2008, then it's like the developers just died and got replaced by people from Blizzard who made it their job to make Jagex look at bad as possible.

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[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When I was on, I did learn that the average age of player was pretty young - that was one of the factors I needed to know, because I didn't want my then-elementary-age son playing a game mostly used by adults.

Actually, the average age has been something like 24 since 2004.

That might have explained some of the behavior in RuneScape - it was childish because a significant number of the players were children.

Sadly, this isn't the case.

Bots - I remember there was a function for reporting them... one that really didn't very often result in action taken against the account using it... but in some areas it was possible to trail hostile NPCs into the vicinity of the character played by the bot, and the character wouldn't defend. I used to mine where I could do that, and use hostiles to eliminate bot players so I wouldn't have to go elsewhere.

What I did was I'd kill the bots who went to the wilderness to kill green dragons, I got to the point where instead of taking 20 minutes for a full inventory of bones (they droppes bones, hides and rarely dragon weapons, bones being worth 3 times as much as hides, and a single weapon being worth hundreds of bones) I'd be able to fill up in under a minute.

I also did a thing in 2007 where me and a whole whack of friends blocked the bots which mined "rune essence" which was used for magic runes, an expensive and used in-mass comsumable. The price for rune essence trippled overnight because bots were responsible for so much of it's production.

Downside? Bot developers found a workaround within a day.

[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When I was on, I did learn that the average age of player was pretty young - that was one of the factors I needed to know, because I didn't want my then-elementary-age son playing a game mostly used by adults.

Actually, the average age has been something like 24 since 2004.

That might have explained some of the behavior in RuneScape - it was childish because a significant number of the players were children.

Sadly, this isn't the case.

That is sad. Of course, in 2004, I was 32. In 2008 when I checked out the game, I ran into a lot of pre-teens - so many that I began answering "are you really a girl" with "I'm old" to avoid potential problems.

Blocking the bots is terrific. Even though it only worked for a day, it had to piss them off.

What really blows my mind is that game developers haven't figured out how to deal with bot developers themselves. There are two ways they could affect bot-mining. They could identify the items the developers were after and temporarily price the items in-market instead of letting sellers name their price, so that no matter what, the bot developers couldn't make a profit, even if they sold a ridiculously high amount of the product. In fact, it could be set up so that the more you put on the market at once, and/or the more you put on the market in the same day or over your character's history, the less the system would permit you to charge for it. They could also, after identifying those items, set up a code that would apply a logarithm users who remain in a specific area and perform the same activity for long stretches of time, causing the likelihood of a drop to reduce based on the time factor and/or the character's growing supply. Or, they could do what Mabinogi did and start sending boss monsters to various areas every day, making announcements as the upcoming whereabouts starting a short time before the monster would appear. That provided high level players with a fun challenge, gave low level players fair warning, and kept bot developers from monopolizing popular areas.

[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That is sad. Of course, in 2004, I was 32. In 2008 when I checked out the game, I ran into a lot of pre-teens - so many that I began answering "are you really a girl" with "I'm old" to avoid potential problems.

wat :/

Blocking the bots is terrific. Even though it only worked for a day, it had to piss them off.

The bots have been gone for like 2 years now, it wasn't at all hard to stop their functioning.

It's just that Jagex purposefully allowed them to operate for years, until their hand was forced.

What really blows my mind is that game developers haven't figured out how to deal with bot developers themselves.

10,000 programmers based in India, you come up with a plan.

There are two ways they could affect bot-mining. They could identify the items the developers were after and temporarily price the items in-market instead of letting sellers name their price, so that no matter what, the bot developers couldn't make a profit, even if they sold a ridiculously high amount of the product. In fact, it could be set up so that the more you put on the market at once, and/or the more you put on the market in the same day or over your character's history, the less the system would permit you to charge for it.

That wouldn't do shit all to them, but it would piss everyone else off.

They could also, after identifying those items, set up a code that would apply a logarithm users who remain in a specific area and perform the same activity for long stretches of time, causing the likelihood of a drop to reduce based on the time factor and/or the character's growing supply.

Way easier said than done.

Or, they could do what Mabinogi did and start sending boss monsters to various areas every day, making announcements as the upcoming whereabouts starting a short time before the monster would appear.

They used to have random events, like the evil chicken would appear and attack you, it was awesome.

What they ended up doing was changing item ID's randomly every day or so, that way bots will confuse a fish for a tree and just not function properly. Sure developers can find what ID is what, but Jagex can change it again in the whole of half an hour. (Blizzard did this a decade ago...)

[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

wat :/

"I'm old" kept underage players from trying to befriend me, the absolute last thing I wanted.

The bots have been gone for like 2 years now, it wasn't at all hard to stop their functioning.

It's just that Jagex purposefully allowed them to operate for years, until their hand was forced.

Ah, I definitely misunderstood that, then. It seemed like they were a permanent problem.

10,000 programmers based in India, you come up with a plan.

What benefit were the programmers getting from their actions? Was it like Everquest, where they were selling game items and currency outside the game?

That wouldn't do shit all to them, but it would piss everyone else off.

Well, the solution for players would be to buy items while the price was low... but that would only have worked if the bot users were other players, not profiteers like those in Everquest.

Way easier said than done.

I have seen something similar done in other games - but since coding is not something I ever pursued I admit I have no idea what accomplishing the task would entail.

They used to have random events, like the evil chicken would appear and attack you, it was awesome.

I remember the chicken - it was a new thing right about the time I switched over to Mabinogi.

The solution you describe, though - I hadn't even thought of how the bot programmers were designing their software to control the player. Of course changing item IDs would mess up the bots, and they'd have no way of getting around that.

[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I wonder, if in-game problems like hyperinflation resulting from bot-hording of items could be used as a way of imparting economic lessons to kids. Obviously, in an in-game free-market, the power of supply vs demand over the price of an item would become obvious, as would the threat the development of a monopoly would present to the functionality of the market.

Unfortunately it did, it taught people that there are no authorities and to be disconnected, that's why there is more of a wealth imbalance in RS than real life. I was considered to be in the top 2%with 65 million gold the vast majority of which was made from item production, there were people with >50 billion...mostly from hacking other accounts, market manipulation, flat out scamming and using that wealth to bully wealth from others.

Yep, that would be a perfect solution.

They actually messed with it a bit for a little while, got the bots to clear out dangerous monsters and stuff.

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[–]Lunatcharsky1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would hate it if MRAs were actually like many feminists claim: rampant chauvinists - but so far I haven't seen any here. The insistence on gender-neutral statements about abuse seems a bit odd at first, especially since I really didn't give two shits about that until I got into the matter, but it seems to me that most of you (of us?) actually are advocating very reasonable things in a rational manner. Were there such a group as "Equalists" I'd be a member right fucking now, but you come damn close to that. I hate the reputation, but the simple factly matter is good and right.

I don't really want to enter such a heated area, or get the "reputation" for myself, especially given the associations drawn by those self-proclaimed "feminists" about MR-activists, but fuck, you're right! I actually know quite a few well emancipated women who share that notion...this new version of feminism isn't to their taste either.

Oh fuck it, I'm "in". :D

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I understand your concern with the ad hominem portion of the argument. However, the ad hominem is merely a distraction. "These women are crazy," ad hominem "because X" counterargument that highlights the incredulity of the claim being refuted.

This is a problem I regularly encounter with religious folks. They don't listen to reason and if I do try and form a normal argument with them that tends to give them more credence than they even deserve. Here is an article about why Richard Dawkins refuses to debate creationists. I think there are similar parallels here with feminists.

Suggesting that rape is being overly used to describe intercourse that isn't 110% desired is a tough thing to sell. Many people might even stop listening to us before we get to the evidence to back up that assertion. Thus it's important to use something attention grabbing. While academic quality debate is a great thing and can really help to shape views, the whole entire field of marketing shows that people are not rational and can be easily manipulated. And they're the ones making the decisions.

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"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." Marilyn French (her emphasis)

'My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter." Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.

"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey." Marilyn French

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"We live, I am trying to say, in an epidemic of male violence against women." Katha Pollitt.

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used." Andrea Dworkin

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." Germaine Greer.

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity." Andrea Dworkin

source

I'm sorry dear but if it looks like a female supremacist and quacks like a female supremacist it must be a feminist.

In many ways society is strongly biased against men and mainstream feminism supports laws that make this bias worse.

To say a "real feminist" isn't a man hater is the "no true Scottsman" argument. Real feminists have been hating men in numbers too great for too long to say feminism isn't a hate group.

Or show me the feminist group that supports drafting women, that wants equal time for equal crime, that wants equality in family law, or even one that admits after differences in job categories, time in career, daily hours, and such are considered men and women make the same wages.

[–]Magikarparparp-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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See, that is why the term feminism has started to lose its credibility. Instead of cooperating to isolate those wackos on the surface, deeply dangerous at core, individuals, you take offense on that list, because as a feminist you have to defend the group you have assigned to-even if it means having to distance yourself from them, you take a defensive stance against someone else you would in different context even cooperate with.

It is entirely understandable, but I think at this point we all have to rethink the fundamentals of what we consider human rights. Fragmented groups that have equal points of cooperation as well as derision with and against each other, make for a very messy situation, a mess which also leaves room for extremists on either side to exploit (as this post shows). Ps: I am a woman, grateful for the first wave of feminists, extremely side-eying second/third.

Edit for a correction (okay, two!)

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I appreciate the sentiment but honestly I feel there's little to work together on, if by feminism you mean the ideology that has its roots in patriarchy theory.

A lot of the things that the MRM stands for are in direct conflict with patriarchy theory, and with much of what has been done by the movement you claim to be part of in the name of "smashing" or defending yourselves from it. Duluth model, affirmative action, women-only shelters, etc etc... the list goes on, same old stuff that gets posted here time and time again

In fact, a big part of the MRM's objectives revolve around repairing the damage feminist lobbying and decades of patriarchy theory have - unapologetically - done to men in society. So yeah, I'm not sure how a cooperation could ever happen, unless feminism (or at least the feminism that counts, the one that gets spoon-fed in academia and the one that pushes laws) doesn't get redefined into something else first. Which I don't see happening.

That said, I too think this post is stupid and I'm surprised it received this many upvotes. At least the comments are pretty reasonable though.

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You missed the point, lesbians don't need men AT ALL, so they can vilify them much more easily. Like how white people can unduly vilify black people, because most of the time you can actually never interact with them if you so wish. You can cut them out of your life, and then they only exist as the imagined stereotype of them in your mind. Some lesbians hate men unabashedly, and if those men-haters actually have a significant pull on the debate surrounding ideas of feminism, then it isn't invalid to say that feminism is a man-hating movement.

This is all true only if it is true that these lesbian man-haters are controlling the conversation. Which I kind of doubt. I mean I'm sure they play a part, but I'm unsure how often these types of people are center-stage in feminism-related discussions. They certainly exist, but I have no idea how common this type of person is in the realm of feminism. I wouldn't know.

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Title	Wise words
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	1362
Comments	204
Date	May 23, 2013 4:30 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1ewtbg/wise-words/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/wise-words.1613204 https://theredarchive.com/post/1613204

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