Is flirting objectification? Is chivalry an ecpression of patriarchy? If so, how the changes affect dating?

kittenated · 2021-10-21T18:38:12+00:00

"Cat calling" is now called sexual harassment, while it used to be taken as a compliment. Doesn't this disrespect those who were - in fact - harassed?

It is harassment.

(while of course they are wearing shorts trough which one can see what they had for breakfast).

Oh for god's sake. You had to being up what the woman is wearing while getting perved over while having a door opened for her didn't you? Convenient that you brought this up, really, being as this is exactly the kind of crap we're tired of.

redheadbeauty15 · 2021-10-21T21:35:22+00:00

Sexual harassment is derogatory and meant to embarrass and make the women feel uncomfortable. Cat calling was never taken as a compliment the first age women start getting cat called is around 8/9 , ask any woman and they will tell you that its directly objectifying some women with weird sexual fetishes might find cheap attention flattering but majority no. It makes us internalize our own objectification. I can't wear a dress or skirt or tights without getting lewd behaviour everywhere I go. It's frustrating and i do not understand it.

I don't get offended if a man gives a sincere non sexual compliment, until he starts amping it up and making me uncomfortable or won't take a hint. Chivalry is nice but men typically do perform it in a condescending tone, like a girl pumping gas in her car and a man taking over despite her showing no signs of distress.

the only way these things have changed the market is in scaring some guys who don't have good self aware social skills from approaching women and it increases the highlight of accountability for certain behaviours. It does cause some tensions, but that's just because men now have to be aware and women don't have to accept shitty behaviour.

Fabulous-Housing102 · 2021-10-21T17:24:40+00:00

Cat calling has always been sexual harassment

quiturbitchn · 2021-10-21T17:16:47+00:00

Catcalling was never a compliment. You’re full of shit on that point. My great grandmother born in the early 1900s always said catcalling was a form of disrespect but there was nothing she could do about it

Orange_Paisley · 2021-10-21T17:23:47+00:00

Flirting is generally playful banter between two people. It is not objectification. Catcalling was never taken as a compliment. Never. It was always disrespectful.

GodFromMachine · 2021-10-21T18:03:20+00:00

Flirting is a bilateral acitvity. Shouting "I like your ass" from across the street isn't flirting. Some would classify it as a harassment, at best it's simply a statement, but it certainly isn't flirting.

Introduce yourself, see how the other person reacts, see if there's any banter between you, if any "sparks" start to fly. If yes, ask for a date, if no, better luck next time. Don't just go dick first at any woman you like ffs.

relish5k · 2021-10-21T22:05:02+00:00

Random man on the street: "you have a beautiful smile, have a blessed day" = not harassment

Random man on the street: "mmm looking at you makes me hungry" (exaggerated licking of lips while staring) = harassment.

Helping strangers can be chivalry, but just as many women hold doors open (at least for other women). Be a buddy and help someone with their luggage regardless of gender. Hold the elevator for your fellow man, or woman.

And whatever you do, never execute someone when their family is likely to pay a high ransom for their safe return (an often neglected but highly important component of chivalry)

Novadina · 2021-10-21T22:45:08+00:00

The kind of things men have yelled at me when cat calling is really disgusting, I have a hard time believing anyone, at any time, would ever take it as a compliment. And it’s never flirting - because they yell it out at me when they are untouchable, like driving by in a car/bike/scooter…

For example, it’s pretty common for some reason for catcallers to yell at me about my “udders” and how they want to “milk” me. Do you seriously think being compared to a cow, having someone openly yelling about a private body part, and being threatened with an act done to livestock that we use for food, is somehow a compliment??? It’s disgusting and humiliating, and no woman except one with a fetish for that specifically would want to hear it, and even then they probably only want it from men they are actually having sex with, not yelled at them by strangers in public. Do you compliment women you know like this?

You know men who do this aren’t thinking it’s a compliment, either. That’s why they do it when you can’t retaliate and don’t do it to people that actually know them.

Pigeon-in-Boots · 2021-10-21T17:56:29+00:00

This whole post takes everything so out of context. It's not black and white. Women are people, not a monolith. They are all going to want different things...just like men.

It's not that complicated. Use common sense. Treat women with respect. Don't hit on your subordinates, don't yell at 15-year-olds on the street. Workplaces aren't places to hit on people. No one is stopping you from forming relationships with coworkers and doing whatever you want when you're not at work. There's a difference between "Hi Mary wanna join us for a drink after work?" and "accidentally" touching Mary's boob, then telling her she has a nice ass.

If a woman thinks asking for consent kills the vibe, that's on her.

SaBahRub · 2021-10-21T19:25:48+00:00

Catcalling is not flirting. It’s letting a woman know, whether she wants to or not, that she made your dick hard. That is one-sided objectification with a side of intimidation and rudeness

CimZim · 2021-10-21T17:39:24+00:00

Flirting can be objectifying, depends on how it is done. Like a PUA? Yeah, that's really not good. Normal, playful banter between two people who like each other? That's good.

Chivalry is an expression of a patriarchal mindset, yes. It's different than simply being a nice, helpful person. Any man or woman can do that. Chivalry is when a man specifically helps a woman specifically, and he wouldn't even glance at a fellow man who needs help. I've twice had men literally try to take my grocery bags from my arms, only to have it drop, and then get angry at me. "I was being helpful, you were supposed to let go!"

The other thing about chivalrous (rather than normal polite or kind) men I've seen far more often is they absolutely loathe when a woman offers to do something for them. Similar to how some feminist women will publicly tell off a man for daring to hold open a door for her, chivalrous males will do exactly the same thing.

I can recall 5 times that I attempted to hold open a door for a man, usually older than me by a decade or two, who either stood there refusing to walk through or came up behind me to hold the door and pushed my back while telling me to go through instead. And six times I've been told by older male customers "I don't want you to bring my purchase out to my car, women aren't supposed to lift things. What happened to your boss's chivalry?"

Being helpful to both sexes is awesome and wonderful. Chivalry can go fuck a cactus. This is the reason I'd never date a traditional man.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-10-21T18:03:28+00:00

1) do men really feel so utterly obligated to compliment women? Maybe try getting to know someone first so you can actually compliment things that are meaningful.

2) catcalling is not flirting or complimentary. It's a man being egotistical and thinking I value his opinion

3) if you're only "kind" to women and not other men, you aren't actually kind.

4) I go to work to do my job and get my paycheck.

5) if your mood relies on not letting a woman express consent, you're a creep.

superlurkage · 2021-10-21T17:27:48+00:00

Flirting is not objectification, because you want the other party to express their honest feelings in return. They are not just an inert thing

Catcalling is not flirting

Is chivalry an expression of patriarchy? Sort of, because it’s based on the presumptions that women can’t do anything and that men are a threat to them. Basic manners and courtesy is a better bet

wtknight · 2021-10-21T17:53:44+00:00

Flirting is a wide range of behaviors. They can range from making the other person feel better about themselves to trying to exert power over them. It’s therefore difficult to make a generalization. Some people appreciate banter more than others, as well.

Chivalry is mostly about men trying to feel useful to and in power over women. The more traditional a woman is, the more she might appreciate it.

People should generally try to date those who agree upon what kind of flirting is acceptable, whether “chivalry” is encouraged or patronizing, and what the definition of consent should be. People aren’t monoliths in how they think about these things.

lilscorpiobaby1024 · 2021-10-21T17:54:06+00:00

Flirting is not objectification and chivalry is not an expression of the patriarchy. A man holding open a door for you or things like that is usually seen as sweet or in most cases like common human decency. I would hold a door open for a man too. I think there’s a difference between flirting and catcalling. Everyone is different I don’t really mind catcalling but some women hate it. I think it just depends on the circumstance like you basic social cues to know what is appropriate to say versus what is inappropriate. Telling someone they are cute/beautiful is usually a good way to go no need to make comments about the body of a girl you just met or say over sexual things I think that is where the line can be crossed between flirting and objectification.

CrazyBaby8891 · 2021-10-21T18:42:45+00:00

It really depends on intent and context more than anything as to whether or not something is objectification. A few examples:

Dude makes an overtly sexual flirty remark/move to his wife to indicate he's in the mood = generally not objectification
Dude makes an overtly sexual flirty remark/move to some random chick or an acquaintance = objectification
Dude sees an attractive chick and wants to ask her out. Does he:
Say he thinks she's beautiful and would like to get to know her, ask her on a date = not objectification
Say something crude, or say something (crude or not) just to get in her pants = objectification

The questions to ask oneself here are:

"Do I see this woman as a person and treat her as such, or do I see her as a fleshlight/human blowup doll?"
"Which of the two above viewpoints is the action I'm considering taking indicate?"
"Are my intentions and actions mismatched?"

SonicBackScratcher · 2021-10-21T18:58:27+00:00

Similarly if a guy holds the door for them

Is like the midwest the only place in the world where people hold the door for everyone?

I'm always baffled online when people get offended somehow by door holding. Its just a polite gesture and it serves a purpose of making thing go smoother going in and out of a building/room.

badgersonice · 2021-10-21T17:25:20+00:00

I think the modern age has killed flirting flat out. Part of this is because (heterosexual) flirting predicated on some acknowledgement that the person flirting with you is different. Men opened doors for women, because they are weaker. Women flirt with men by stroking their egos and making them feel manly. A good flirt makes you feel desireable, which means making men feel masculine and women feel feminine.

But now, half of that is off limits. I personally like it when men do things for me. I know they wouldn't do these things for me if they didn't think I was pretty but, I like the fact that they think I'm pretty? Its flattering. Catcalling is not flattering because intense male desire is threatening to women, but if a man can show his desire in a non-needy and subtle way (at first) then that is extremely attractive to me.

I've noticed that men are now more reluctant to show any interest. I go to the gym, sometimes I see a cute guy checking me out. If I catch him looking, I make a mental note to smile at him when I next catch him. Problem is, they don't look after I catch them. They actively make an effort to avoid my gaze if they thought I saw them looking at me. I smiled at a guy at the gym the other day, and he looked genuinely surprised.

The fact that men aren't allowed to show their desire to women in anyway has killed flirting.

Kentucky_Supreme · 2021-10-21T18:35:58+00:00

I'm convinced flirting is only considered objectification if the woman doesn't find the guy hot enough. Which can be a handy tool for women that want to keep a guy away. If they aren't into him, they can simply play it off like he's a bad person that's doing something wrong. Either way, the guy is just playing his role by approaching since men are expected to approach. I don't think it's fair at all to socially crucify him (assuming he wasn't vulgar or disrespectful, of course).

The whole chivalry thing can be pretty confusing because it seems to purely depend on the woman. I know there's some that are traditional, some don't want to depend on a man for anything and take offense to him holding doors and such, and then there's some that want both. Whichever is convenient at the time.

Initiating physically intimacy is like traversing a minefield covered in eggshells with all of the "consent" stuff involved. And you can't ask because it "kills the mood". And the fact that she can retract consent at any time on a whim is kinda fucked up. But once again, the guy is expected to make the first move and lead the way. But obviously it can only happen if the woman wants it to. It's like the woman is sitting in the driver's seat with the pedals and steering wheel right in front of her but she wants the guy to drive the car from the passenger seat. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Playful_Art_5364 · 2021-10-21T17:18:36+00:00

At some point you got to stop listening to people on the internet.

Like the percent of the population that’s offended by everything will always be offended no matter what you do

PlayfulLawyer · 2021-10-21T18:43:05+00:00

A man should avoid a woman like the plague if she uses terms like "objectification" and "patriarchy" or "predatory" or any of those buzzwords with any kind of comfort she belongs to the social justice streets, just leave her there

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sine120 · 2021-10-21T17:26:46+00:00

For flirting, it certainly can be but it doesn't have to be, same deal for "chivalry" or acts of kindness. I was a bit of a flirt back in college/ high school mostly for my own amusement. Bantering back and forth and the kind of loaded conversations that end in "Oh, yeah?" or "Prove it". In my experience flirting rarely even glosses over looks, it's more dancing around actions, or fancy wordplay. I'm sure it can be objectifying, but it doesn't have to be. As far as acts of kindness, it's the same story. Different people might expect different things as a reward for being a good boy. Personally I'm just happy to help whoever for small stuff and I'm satisfied with an "oh, thanks", but your mileage may vary.

goatismycopilot · 2021-10-21T19:04:38+00:00

A lot of chivalry is a combination of cultural programming combined with ego gratification. Men like demonstrating a particular act because of what is does for them and how it makes them feel.

Example: most the time if I run an errand that involves standing line after work in my scrubs some man primarily some working class one wearing boots and rough clothes because he has been at it all day at some crap job will tell me to go ahead of them in line. And I am not that cute especially after I have been working 12 to 14 hours. Then I say," thank you sir I appreciate your kindness" and it does not matter if he is some kid I still say it. It makes him feel good to do that and their momma or their meemaw would smack them in the head for not doing it.

michael1962-01 · 2021-10-21T19:08:52+00:00

Chivalry has been killed.

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-10-21T22:01:23+00:00

Flirting is not objectification, but catcalling isn’t flirting, and it was never a compliment. Chivalry only toward women you want to sleep with or look at their butts is an expression of the patriarchy I guess (or just creepy), but courtesy toward everyone like holding the door for someone behind you is just called being raised right. Your perspective is so messed up if you think harassment is flirting and creepin is chivalry and approaching is harassment and consent is a mood killer, I honestly can’t say much else other than you need a course on social skills.

Just treat women with respect as human beings and you won’t have anything to worry about in terms of anger and accusations. Those are the result of intentional boundary pushing which does not just happen by itself.

Edit: And best not to associate with the type of women who claim consent kills the vibe, honestly. Those are the ones who will turn around and accuse you of something or poke holes in the condoms or stab you in your sleep. Just trust me on that one.

heyitsjeape · 2021-10-22T00:34:51+00:00

I see this term “objectification,” or “objectified” on here a little but still have no idea what it means.

LeaveThisPlanet · 2021-10-23T05:47:34+00:00

OP, if ALL or the vast majority of women on this thread, tell you that they DON'T like being cat-called, maybe take the hint and accept that this is how they feel, without the need to mansplain it for them. You asked, they replied. Women are the ones being catcalled, women are the ones to decide how it feels for them. Not men.

Kaisha001 · 2021-10-21T20:04:58+00:00

You're missing the point.

The point is they want men by the balls. They don't want compromise, or cooperation. They want unilateral power to bend men to their whim.

They want men to be forced to 'push the boundaries', then they have the power to destroy them if they so please. They'll never clarify or come to a middle ground.

Title	Is flirting objectification? Is chivalry an ecpression of patriarchy? If so, how the changes affect dating?
Author	EstablishmentKooky50
Upvotes	3
Comments	185
Date	October 21, 2021 5:14 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/qcwl92/is_flirting_objectification_is_chivalry_an/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-flirting-objectification-is-chivalry-an.1082626 https://theredarchive.com/post/1082626

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