Men here are too obsessed with masculinity, even though women love feminine men too.

Psychological_Wear_7 · 2021-03-06T20:50:44+00:00

Women love short men, just look at how successful Danny Devito is guys

Banned_BY_SOYMEN · 2021-03-06T20:45:19+00:00

Who cares about celebrities? Focus on real world data.

KeynesPutoAmo · 2021-03-06T20:19:58+00:00

Nice examples lol, those korean band boys are literally handcrafted, 1% in terms of looks, plus make up, lighting, camera angles etc.

reluctantly_red · 2021-03-06T20:19:24+00:00

All those examples you gave of men have two other things in common: Fame and fortune. No shit women find them attractive. For non-celebrity men, women definitely prefer the masculine one.

Bandit174 · 2021-03-06T20:37:20+00:00

I would define masculine as:

Physically

> 6' tall
naturally broad shoulders/frame ( not necessarily muscles, but wide skeletal frame i.e rib cage clavicle/collar bone)
defined jawline
deep voice
dick > 6"
muscles ( I actually agree that the body builder look is not ideal to most women but maybe somewhere between a swimmers physique and Cris Evans as Captain America is what women prefer)

Personality

relaxed playful confidence
outgoing
ambitious

Yeah some girls like guys with more pretty faces, but you very rarely prefer anything outside of the traits mentioned above. You might settle for traits out of those range but never prefer.

DaBlockObama · 2021-03-06T20:32:10+00:00

Bts is literally Asian-washed rap. Some of the members rap and break dance and are all about hiphop culture.

Look at the kardashians, the quintessential American females, they date and marry rappers.

Bts isn’t feminine, they are just well manicured.

LeatherDifference583 · 2021-03-06T20:44:15+00:00

Women are attracted to nice facial features and toned bodies. That could mean big muscles for some, or slim and toned for others.

TheRabbitTunnel · 2021-03-06T22:23:52+00:00

Women love feminine men too.

So women love short, scrawny, submissive men? LMAO

theambivalentrooster · 2021-03-06T22:24:36+00:00

You’re framing it incorrectly. Those men aren’t feminine, they present another form of masculinity, the passionate romantic artist.

TLorrai · 2021-03-06T20:55:31+00:00

I think what it comes down to is do these women like these men for sex, or is it just in terms of the relationship? I think guys can accept that certain women prefer feminine features in men, but we have a hard time not worrying that eventually she may want to sleep with a more masculine dude. Doesn't have to be all the time, but we know women prefer different types of men at different stages of ovulation. So yeah she may be in love with you for most of the year, but during specific weeks of any given month she could be sleeping with another dude. It's an especially scary scenario if she's consciously trying to cuck the dude by having her side piece's kid.

It all comes back to paternity certainty. Guys would rather be the dude she wants to fuck even if it means not being her romantic ideal. The raising another man's kid might not be as relevant today as it was hundreds of years ago, but that subconscious suspicion is always looming in the back of a guy's head.

mxp68 · 2021-03-06T20:22:31+00:00

You must live in Asia.

American women love “big“ everything in men: bodies, wallets, muscles, houses, egos, n-counts.

Pilling_it · 2021-03-06T20:39:59+00:00

Yeah, except they basically have everything going for them beside that, that's an apex fallacy.

I for one, know that being masculine is what work best success wise. And unless incentives changes, that won't either.

Rent_Is_Due_Renthog · 2021-03-06T22:17:17+00:00

kpop superstars are loved!

So are funny hollywood midgets but we all know what happens when you take away the fame and millions.

majani · 2021-03-06T23:21:24+00:00

It seemed to me to be common sense that only teenage girls like these sort of effeminate boys, but alas, PPD needs scientific clarification for this. Thank goodness scientists do studies on such obvious topics...

Women's preferences for masculinity in male faces are highest during reproductive age range and lower around puberty and post-menopause:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453009003680

Even when looking at your hearthrob examples, they mostly follow the same pattern where they start off with the effeminate look and then transition into a more masculine look when they get older in order to grow with the tastes of their fanbase.

Please let's not go down the pedantic road of stressing over exceptions to the rule.

losermusic · 2021-03-06T22:57:47+00:00

As an attractive, feminine guy in the US, I completely agree. (It's hard to quantify attractiveness in a Reddit comment, but I'm certainly above the 85th percentile. I don't have big muscles or much facial hair or flannel shirts.)

Disclaimer: I don't have a precise idea of the nuance of masculinity / femininity, nor do I frequent PPD or pill communities in general. That said, I exhibit some masculinity through things like basic competence and not being a complete doormat. I don't really think about or worry if I'm masculine enough or too feminine. By nature, I am definitely in the top 50th percentile of femininity among straight men. It's also hard to say how much higher than the 50th percentile I would fall. So I doubt I'm in "nice guy" territory, but women appreciate my femininity to a large degree.

2021-03-06T23:21:53+00:00

Yeah okay, tell that to every short guy with a slim frame, small shoulders, and a young face. This isn’t cope as I’d never tell that guy to stop trying, but coming from experience guys like that will take a lot of shit from women for not being masculine enough. Many women will write men with such features off as “gay” even if there’s nothing indicating that at all.

As a trend, women tend to like men who are masculine in some way. This is hardly news. Using celebrities to illustrate a point isn’t really good evidence.

NICHIJOU2411 · 2021-03-06T21:40:27+00:00

What is the sudden explosion of women liking feminine men? I’m actually interested about where this came from.

PlayfulLawyer · 2021-03-06T20:28:42+00:00

Will teenyboppers throughout the years have never really liked the most masculine guys, at least in terms of the aesthetic, I remember coming up girls my age and maybe a little younger absolutely loved and sank and guys like that even though they weren't the most masculine dudes lol, but obviously people grow up a little bit and maybe you don't go from NSYNC to the hard-core rapper type but usually young girls grow up out of that teeny bopper music into something a little more masculine a little more confident to little more grown and sexy even though you can obviously still enjoy whatever music you want.

And some women probably do like more feminine men, especially if the women carry that masculine energy, which is fine that's how it's supposed to be that balance, my issue is when those same kind of women that exude a lot of that masculine energy complain about not being able to find that masculine man

801735 · 2021-03-06T20:46:39+00:00

I guess the biggest problem is : How are we defining masculinity?

You aren't. Nobody is, really.

wtknight · 2021-03-07T00:03:25+00:00

Those celebrity men are still masculine in the sense that they have confidence and a masculine structure to their faces, even if they are not traditionally masculine. Most of the men who fail do so because they lack confidence and they don't put the type of effort into their appearance that they should be putting in (for instance, lifting weights, but still dressing like a slob and having a bad haircut).

So I don't think that men are wrong to be focused upon trying to become more masculine. I just think that the ones obsessed with masculinity focus it in a way that not as many modern women are really interested in. The idea of what is "masculine" is changing, and not many men seem to have adjusted.

hesipullupjimbo445 · 2021-03-07T01:44:09+00:00

“Their main audience is teen boys and young men” You underestimate how many teen girls and young women like rap and find rappers. Some even go as far as to fetishize the lifestyle.

“When they got older, they also had YOUNG ADULT FANS.” Those are the same people that supported them when they were teen heartthrobs. They all made at worst decent music and were attractive so it’s not that crazy that they still had slightly older fans.

“How are we defining masculinity?” Women have defined it from a physical aspect as tall, muscular, strong jawline, big dick, and usually a beard. From a character aspect they need to be confident and tough. Then there’s utility. The man needs to make enough money to provide a comfortable lifestyle for his wife and kids, be able to do handy-work around the house, and cook/grill when necessary. There’s no problem with any of these traits but women have given them a hierarchy of importance. Physical traits are first, utility comes second, and character comes second. However, the distance between physical and utility/character is massive. This is why asian men, at least in America, are seen as the least masculine despite earning the most of any race in the country. Women want the physical aspect of masculinity but will accept feminine men when they can more than make up for it financially and status wise(Timberlake, Styles, Bieber, Zayne).

reddtormtnliv · 2021-03-07T08:35:05+00:00

The men, or boys you are describing, aren't necessarily feminine men. They are just men that have more of a boyish appearance. You can still have a masculine personality and a boyish appearance. Also, I wouldn't consider pop idols the epitome of what defines what women like. A lot of women like these men, or boys, because women are fascinated by pop culture. What comes to mind is women going crazy over seeing the beetles in action. A lot of these women know they couldn't date these guys, they just love the idea of getting hyped up over popular and charming guys.

colgateexpert · 2021-03-07T15:18:20+00:00

When women say they love feminine men they're referring to men who look feminine but still act masculine and confident. Very few women like actually feminine men and these women get flooded with attention cause there's crazy high demand for them

VoiceOfTheMillenium · 2021-03-09T09:04:01+00:00

> even though women love feminine men too.

I have a theory that they love young and innocent looking rather than feminine men. I am sure nobody would be wet for fucking Chris-chan.

Now, I could pose a question whether it is the reason we have more acceptable, as society, view on female paedophilia (coupled with the whole rise of cases of statutory rape done by women), but it's an icky subject and I don't want to delve deep enough into it to lose the rest of my faith into humanity.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-03-06T21:32:19+00:00

Boy bands and the pretty boy look are marketed around how safe they are. Their primary consumers base peaks at around 16. You are not going to be able to sell a rough tough guy look to 14year old girls' suburban parents. At that age however you could make the girls like anything if you advertise it enough.

That said the producers of this type of shit always try to sell a bad boy tough look also, only they wrap them in some pink glam nonsense. "OMG he's such a dreamy.bad boy,rebel ,misunderstood ,hunny bunny !"

CowboyBebald · 2021-03-07T01:58:50+00:00

Your type of feminine men is masculine. High status, symmetrical features, usually tall, LEAN low body fat, high lean mass, sharp/angular features, etc

The type of feminine we want to AVOID is skinny fat, mentally weak, physically weak, unsymmetrical, etc. Like those balding guys with thick rimmed glasses, 0 muscle mass, beards and Hella body hair (which isn't masculine by the way its just caused by dht sensitivity in the SKIN which isn't an ANABOLIC hormone like testosterone and is USELESS after puberty). Aim to be MASCULINE then you can make yourself pretty (cutting after building a solid base of lean tissue), unless you're naturally lean. If you aim for feminine you'll look like a cuck unless you're naturally pretty and aesthetic. Also low testosterone is never never never never good you'll get depression

Kpop is masculine. Boy bands are masculine. Indie game devs are NOT. In fact, rappers aren't masculine either unless they have supremely good genetics. Hedonistic lifestyles and drugs/alcohol = LOW T. Why do you think all rappers have depression. Talking about fighting demons and shit. You think BTS ever talks about fighting demons? No they're on their strict workout schedules eating clean and not doing drugs plus rolling in women so their testosterone is through the roof, only nerf is cortisol and stress

davidfosford21 · 2021-03-07T04:31:32+00:00

girls under 23 dont mind feminine men (if no sexy rugged men want them), above age 24 women are mostly repulsed by cute feminine men

geyejoe7 · 2021-03-07T07:42:02+00:00

Women want real men. Taller than them, more mascular, serious when needed, fun when needed, determined, confident, leaders.

obviousaltaccount69 · 2021-03-07T10:15:04+00:00

Stop talking out of your arse. Act like a feminene guy and be a virgin for the rest of your life

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NockerJoe · 2021-03-06T20:27:49+00:00

Yes, because theres a tradeoff there. A masculine man who fucks women can still be popular around other men. Feminine men do not get that luxury. Being a feminine man who fucks a lot of women often comes with behaviors other men don't find acceptable.

Its the same as women obsessing over the whole Stacy look and traditionally feminine hobbies but wanting a boyfriend. They very often want to have their cake and eat it too and wonder why they aren't meeting many good dudes in real life when every place they go and every hobby they have is designed to cater to women and not men.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-03-06T22:09:54+00:00

Agree to an extent. But it seems older women are more into masculinity while younger women prefer feminine harmless pretty boys.

Could that mean masculinity is actually a beta trait? Being charismatic and creative is different to being able to change the brake pads on a car. Even though redpillers may claim both are masculine traits.

Even the rules of social dominance aren't normalised; lower classes in your face dominance increases your status. Higher classes intellectual dominance increases status.

Prize-Thought-4205 · 2021-03-06T22:55:27+00:00

I mean sure, american women love feminine looking boys with cute sexy faces.

However... how do they fare in actual real relationships? And in the long term? Do these relationships even last beyond some quick sex or some cute fun dates. No I don't think so. We all know how Justin Bieber turned out how Chris Brown turned out.

Don't be so naive, just because society no longer cares or wants women to act feminine (what men naturally desire the most) it doesn't mean men should not care or want to be masculine. The opposite is true, they should be in tune with their true selves to survive in this insane planet.

Notsonewguy7 · 2021-03-07T01:48:49+00:00

Elephant in the room. This will work differently across the ethnic lines. For some men this embracing of femininity will be seen as attractive for other men it's a sexual death sentence

AidsVictim · 2021-03-07T02:03:23+00:00

It astounds men that I'm still reading Nice Guy posts about "Women only like Masculine men".

I don't think that's really the consensus although I guess some guys do think that. The main thing I think most guys on any of these pill forums agree on is that being good looking in general is what works, masculine or feminine.

Model level beauty in men often has a degree of femininity in their looks (heavily styled luscious hair, lithe figures, "gracile" facial features, a degree of fitness but not necessarily well developed muscularly) although there are plenty of obviously and traditionally masculine men at that level as well.

The attractiveness of femininity and masculinity in men basically represents a sliding age scale in their popularity. Very masculine men are rarely popular with high school teens, very feminine men rarely popular with older (30's+) women. Feminine looks become increasingly niche as we age and masculinity becomes more attractive. For your examples

Yes, Timberlake, Beiber, Zayne, and Styles started off as teen heart throbs, and when they got older, they also had YOUNG ADULT FANS. Even when these artists sing about sex, it's mainly about love making.

These guys all became more masculine as they aged, it's the nature of male aging. Few of them are considered more physically attractive in older age brackets than someone like Henry Cavill who has more traditionally masculine looks.

The advice for most men to become more masculine is ubiquitous for a couple of reasons a) most men seeking pill advice are already in the age brackets where masculinity becomes more generally attractive b) men mostly cannot become more feminine beautiful because it's mostly a function of genetics - the best you can do is become svelte (low body fat, average muscularity) or makeup/clothing choices (extremely niche for most men outside celebrities/musicians). Conversely almost all men can become more masculine attractive through exercise (muscular development), facial hair, traditionally acceptable clothing/grooming

just_a_place · 2021-03-07T03:19:59+00:00

I don't think Kpop is feminine - like at all. It's something but it's not feminine. Those girls do not attract me in any way. They instill the same type of cringe that those ultra girlie Japanese girls with the high pitched voices cause. Makes my skin crawl - not to be offensive but it's just honestly how I feel. I know femininity when I see it and that right there is NOT feminine. Not to me anyway, and not the sort of femininity that attracts me as a masculine agent in the world. Their body language, culture, mannerisms and such all cry of a clingy desperation and Mega-drama that is just pure poison to peace and happiness.

Masculinity is just who we are. It's no mystery and NO it is not some damned social construct.

Nobody considers Rap masculine. Like you said, all they sing about is how insecure they are and how they need to cry to the world for validation like those losers who install sound amplifiers to their cars to make as much noise as possible on the street just to get noticed. This is not Masculine it's just weak.

Besides, we like what we like just because we like it and not because we sit there and think to ourselves "Oh geez, this really appear to my masculinty, I believe I shall indulge." We are not thinking about how "how this pertains to my manhood" when we consume stuff. If we consume it its simply because we just like it. It's not some overly complicated mystery. The main audience of Rap is not men since I hear just as many girls listening to that crap as boys are.

How many masculine points do you think I will lose if I said I listen to Lady Gaga? For example the song Sine form her latest album Chromatica is one I like listening to when I'm joyriding with my female friends. I also listen to Post Malone. And Lana Del Rey for example this remix of Born to Die. Just to give some example of music guys are also listening to.

I get a lot of crap because I love listening to soft female vocals but that is until people start figuring out that listening to feminine tones brings out all my masculine instincts. It's how I relax. On the opposite side when I want to get pumped and agitated I listen to harsh male vocals because they pump and instigate me into a fight attitude when I am working out or doing something that requires me to get energized and competitive. But when I am listening to feminine female vocals I chill out and my other masculine instincts kick in like self reflection, awareness, calm, and patience. I usually play this type of music in the background when I am hanging out with female friends because it sets the atmosphere and the mood better. Just to throw another song out there Im gonna mention Ari Mason whose voice really chills me out.

The true problem here is pretending to define what masculinity is while completely ignoring actual masculine agents: Men. Only men can define what is masculinity is. Society can go to hell with it's opinions.

disayle32 · 2021-03-07T05:03:17+00:00

So where are all these women who love feminine men?

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-03-07T05:53:11+00:00

No to feminine dudes . Don't sell yourself a lie man . Your woman will leave you or cheat on you with a man that can swing a axe trust me ... 😂

nyclaurco · 2021-03-07T06:13:40+00:00

i think that first example about kpop is just racial stereotyping. this is coming from an ethnic white woman dating a first gen korean man. what is so feminine about the kpop guys? western celebrities also wear lots of makeup on stage and dress flamboyantly or weirdly. just because korean guys wipe their ass and take care of their skin doesn’t mean that they’re feminine. the kpop boys are hard working, confident, and quite tall and physically fit, which are seen as favorable masculine traits. i suppose that they look “pretty” now, but they’re just young guys, usually under 26. once jungkook is like 32, he will probably look more “manly”.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-03-07T07:27:46+00:00

Yes, Timberlake, Beiber, Zayne, and Styles started off as teen heart throbs, and when they got older, they also had YOUNG ADULT FANS. Even when these artists sing about sex, it's mainly about love making.

Ah yes, Justin Timerlake as a teenager was so feminine , am i right ?

And then zayne , shining in his femininity.

When will people in this sub understand that "femininity" in men means expressing feminine features and behaviors, like a gay man behaves. It does not mean kpop or teen throbs.

michael1962-01 · 2021-03-07T10:17:45+00:00

Go 4 it. Women of male body type high testo are into fem soy boys often.

TheChocolateBarsGuy · 2021-03-07T14:17:33+00:00

Yes they love them as beta providers that you can control after you havd rode the CC with the bad boys. Then you cheat on him and divorce rape him taking half of his shit and kids. Gentlemen be aware and protect yourself the state is on womens side!

Workaholiconew · 2021-03-11T15:33:42+00:00

psst... because feminine men do not get as much sexual success. At best they get attention from teens to preteens when they are famous, rich and good looking.

Most men here are not that interested on how masculine they are or not. They just want sex, and masculine men get more sex, thus they are studied and copied. But if some feminine trait is prefered for sex, (like social orientation) they will copy that. Sex is the goal, everything else is the method.

As people keep saying, the only way to destroy TRP as we know it, is to make women not give sexual rewards for these kinds of men.

Sex is the valuable thing here. Not men's, women's, or anyone's perception.

CrackerUMustBTripinn · 2021-03-11T17:36:48+00:00

Here is the truth about that straight from Norah Vincent's mouth after going on 30 dates as a 'straight man' (while actually being a lesbian cis-woman).

Title	Men here are too obsessed with masculinity, even though women love feminine men too.
Author	LillthOfBabylon
Upvotes	0
Comments	367
Date	March 6, 2021 8:14 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/lza2qv/men_here_are_too_obsessed_with_masculinity_even/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-here-are-too-obsessed-with-masculinity-even.1191378 https://theredarchive.com/post/1191378

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