The problem with "game" and fake it until you make it is it's essentially manipulation, not genuine attraction, which can only last so long

BigOleGreenTrees · 2022-10-13T16:12:56+00:00

Game is not manipulating a woman anymore than being nice to someone is manipulation. I'm a woman and I think you're really missing the point about what game is. A lot of women get really hung up on "manipulation" men do but it's rarely actually that. I mean can you name any "game" tactics that manipulates women?? Are you saying negging works on you? do you really get "tricked" by these men and how???

h1shman · 2022-10-13T15:11:46+00:00

While game can include manipulation that’s really not the basis at all. Game is mostly about building comfort and confidence when speaking to women. Learning about certain things that turn women off. Push/pull or other dynamics that build attraction or interest. These dynamics many times extend outside of sexual attraction and are just general charisma.

Few people are born naturally charismatic. It is a skill that can be learned by most, though easier for some than others. Like learning another language you need both academic and real life training. You can’t learn fluently from a book. You need to talk to people in real life. Both French and Charisma are “languages” that you can become fluent in and they become a natural part of you.

Your post seems very pessimistic and neurotic. You should destroy that part of you as it’s unattractive in both sexes and brings you nothing but negative emotions. That’s not manipulation, it’s becoming a better version of yourself.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2022-10-13T15:50:05+00:00

Game originally just meant “being able to flirt and have social skills and be able to close the real and get a girl to go out with you”. It was the PUA that turned it into “use this method to make yourself irresistible to women!! They won’t be able to control their urges no matter how hard they try!” Scam they sold a bunch of times.

Some people are just natural good at flirting. Some need some help and practice. Some need A LOT of help and practice and probably still won’t be good at it but might find someone who is like “oh god, he’s trying so hard. But at least I can tell he really likes me!”

NockerJoe · 2022-10-13T15:57:43+00:00

Meh. In my experience the girls I ran game on still liked me after. The problem sjth attracting women is rarely maintaining attraction, its getting it to begin with. 90% of the work in your first like year is going to be the initial emotional investment and thats what gets solved. If you get that its hard to lose, if you don't its a non starter.

CliffPR · 2022-10-13T15:56:54+00:00

So if no women are genuinely attracted to you you should just give up rather than use game to at least get something short term?

PMmeareasontolive · 2022-10-13T16:55:37+00:00

2 things going on here. 1. average joe has to get his foot in the door or he's never going anywhere. After that his genuine personality will rise or fall on its own merits, but he's gotta do some kind of bullshit, some kind of jumping through hoops, just to get noticed. "Being YOurself" isn't going to cut it.

She'll love his quirks to a certain degree, and it's something you don't rush into. You peal the layers of that onion back over time. It's like responding to women online; generally you don't want to give too much information because she's looking for any excuse to go negative about you, she's looking for red flags everywhere even if there aren't any.

prizefighterstudent · 2022-10-13T17:01:13+00:00

There's cheap game that PUA snake oil salesmen peddle and there's genuine game, which any high profile salesman or social butterfly is aware of.

Genuine attraction exists, and it's something you have to cultivate and not overthink. If you look at someone or something and tell yourself "I want to be closer to it" or "I want to know it better", all your actions toward it will come from a place of genuine interest. Game is really just developing vibes, but it's pretty much impossible if you're forcing it or you're ugly.

Women want to be teased, they want to fuck around, they want to have fun -- but they know when all these things are forced, artificial. If you can become decent looking, buy into yourself, and learn to be unashamed of what you desire and are attracted to, game does work. But as preached in all of these level headed threads in these subs -- the looks threshold is paramount and the ultimate predecessor. Being ugly doesn't fly anywhere.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2022-10-13T17:16:39+00:00

This speaks from the perspective of someone who believes that 'game' actually works. For the umpteenth time, one's personality only has an effect on one's attractiveness in the long term of interacting with someone else. But...whatever, let's assume you mean 'manipulation of your image' when you say 'game.'

Buddy, we're always and at all times 'manipulating our image' to other people. Again, you must mean 'to some weird unreasonable degree.'

All right.

If you manipulate your image to some weird unreasonable degree and she likes you and you don't know her well --- guess what, her attraction to you isn't based on your personality or anything you're doing, it's physical per peer-reviewed research. So, you must mean putting on a constant front over several interactions, the only context in which personality matters.

For whatever reason, you believe the 'image' has not won genuine attraction and instead 'instilled anxiety.' I'm not even sure what that means. Anxiety about what? She has no idea that there's a front. Her attraction to the image is attraction.

Then you say:

You have a girl fighting for your attention and thinking about you because she's obsessed with IF you like her, or whether she'll see you again. She wants the validation, she doesn't want YOU.

This is semantics. Half the reason people need love is, wait for it, ehrmygosh, validation. Humans need to be validated by their fellow humans in many ways --- as a lover, as a friend, as a father, as a son, etc. etc. So if she feels validated by you in that way, she wants you in that way.

She'll learn to love his weirdness or his quirks.

Makes literally no sense. Based on what? You're assuming initial attraction, which is physical, necessarily means that a woman will learn to love a man's peccadillos? Seriously. Does not follow.

A girl who is genuinely attracted doesnt need to be gamed, and if the base of her attraction is based on you gaming her, it will only last so long.

A girl who is physically attracted to you will sleep with you as long as you don't fuck up. But she won't necessarily stick around for that long just because she finds you 'genuinely attractive.' You have to learn that attraction is in flux --- initial impressions can and do change.

If anything, a long con like you describe --- one of a fake image presented over time --- will show more success than whatever it is you're talking about here (physical attraction). The fake image presented over time is the bread and butter of abusers; they often are perfect people toward their spouses for months, maybe even longer, before slowly revealing their true selves.

Fun_Push7168 · 2022-10-13T18:16:29+00:00

Having a sales pitch doesn't make the product a scam.

Doesn't matter how good it is, you still have to get people's attention and show them they want this product.

Hell, I had some friends who ran an automotive paint store. They went through some generic overseas suppliers to find a decent clear coat that they liked to sell as a store brand. They could sell it for less than half the price of most of their clears and still have a slightly higher margin. It sat on the shelves for a couple months with minimal sales and poor feedback. So they doubled the price and now they can barely keep enough on the shelves and customers rave about how good it is. The customers are more satisfied having paid a higher price for the same thing. Value is subjective. Manipulative tactic? Yep. Yet the customers are more satisfied and now they value the product.

Making yourself look attractive and making someone have to pay a price for entry doesn't mean they got a different product, or that they'll be less satisfied with what they got. Just means they'll place value on it.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-10-14T01:24:57+00:00

It's mostly for hookups, sweetheart. Most men break frame when they are interested in the woman.

KirthWGersen · 2022-10-13T15:16:45+00:00

I disagree.

Game is who you are in that moment. It is simply the way you are behaving, and if that is attractive, job done. If you choose to act in an unattractive way afterwards, your game is not very good.

"Fake it till you make it" is simply deciding what kind of person you want to be and setting off down that path. For insistence, if you want to be more confident, you act more confidently, and before you know it you are more confident. It is simply self-improvement. That is why it is "till you make it", not "fake it".

And as for short-term vs. long-term relationships: that is simply a matter of taste and choice. Neither is inherently superior to the other.

social_mule · 2022-10-13T17:07:59+00:00

PUAs and guys who utilize "game" typically aren't looking for anything long term so I don't think they see it as a problem. They're looking for multiple superficial, short term, dick-wetting experiences and "game" is apparently an effective vehicle with which to reach that goal.

hungrychick404 · 2022-10-13T21:38:29+00:00

Meh. The last guy who made my heart go pitter patter just made good conversation and once I reciprocated making intense eye contact and light friendly teasing didn’t mean that he had to hide his goofy side later on.

wtknight · 2022-10-13T15:13:17+00:00

Game should be about effective marketing, not about lying. In that sense, there is no mask that just falls off.

And if a woman is having sex quickly with a guy, she doesn’t know everything about him anyway. Men shouldn’t lie when practicing game, but if they aren’t revealing their entire true selves, then it doesn’t matter because she’s having sex with him quickly anyway and will only discover his bad points later.

howdoiw0rkthisthing · 2022-10-13T15:59:02+00:00

It’s all about getting your foot in the door. Getting a call-back. A first interview. Without that you’ll never find out if you’re compatible or not.

toasterchild · 2022-10-13T16:12:41+00:00

Fake it til you make it is really good advice for learning to overcome shyness and improving self esteem. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone can be really good for yourself in the long run. It doesn't mean you have to lie and play manipulation games. People can take any good advice too far.

Da_Famous_Anus · 2022-10-13T18:36:09+00:00

The problem is - game is the phenomenon that it is because it gets results.

Z-KNHO · 2022-10-13T18:38:40+00:00

Game doesn’t really work bc even the one faking will lose interest

RocinanteCoffee · 2022-10-14T00:31:28+00:00

For some game is a series of strategies people employ even if they don't enjoy it or feel it just to get dates/sex. That is a difficult facade to maintain.

But for many it's merely "applied friendliness". It doesn't have to be fake as long as your friendliness is really YOU.

kinhk · 2022-10-14T03:02:49+00:00

I don't think you know what manipulation is

FlyV89 · 2022-10-14T04:14:18+00:00

More often than not, I've found that what women think it's the most attractive personal trait of me it's not my extrovertion, my charisma, my spontsneity, my quackery or my particular mood in that day, but the fact that I love to be unnapologetically authentic. I love to be ME, it doesn't matter which kind of woman I'm with.

Last week I was on a date with a girl who told me exactly that. She's a feminist, pro-choice, vegan far left woke kinda girl, I'm the complete opposite.

She said somewhere during the night "I usually can't stand guys like that" and I'm like "so you can't stand guys like me", and she said "well, obviously, for some reasson I can't understand, I like you. I wouldn't be here otherwise right?".

She made a pause and then we had this interchange:

She: I think I prefer you over other guys because, despite our thoughts don't align at all, I can tell you are honest. Other guys would pretend to like me just to see if they can get something out of me, and it shows, I can tell. Not you. You just listen to me, call me on my shit without asking for permission and I know at least you are not lying to me in order to get in my pants.

Me: but I do want to get in your pants, it's just that I don't give a fuck what you think about me.

She: and that's sexy. You are the embodiement of the macho culture I spend all my day fighting against, and here I am, hoping the sex won't suck.

(I gave that feminist pussy the cunnilingus of her life, kid you not.)

So I think this "fake it till you make it" it's about that.

This is going to sound stupid, but it's all about speed dialing this "just be yourself" shit.

It's not about faking being another persona, it's being yourself, but being also confident in who you are. It's about having pride in what you believe, honor what you think worths fighting for, and trusting in your inner, intrinsical value as a man.

It's not "being a douchebag" but more about having a spine.

A woman says something you don't like? Call BULLSHIT on her. She said something you don't agree with? Speak up, tell her, say "yeah, bullshit, I don't like that crap, I actually am X and Y and Z".

Women say they don't like that, but they LOVE that crap.

Like, be real. These women are used to guys saying "yes my lady" to every shit they spew.

Who do you think it's going to stand out? The guy that complies to everything, or the dude that respectfully and kindly says "well... Only stupid cunts say shit like that, what kind of relationship do you have with your dad if you don't mind asking?"

Think_gawd · 2022-10-14T18:54:10+00:00

Manipulation: 1. the action of manipulating something in a skillful manner. "the format allows fast picture manipulation" 2. the action of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous way. "there was no deliberate manipulation of visitors' emotions"

For all the irrational people arguing game isn’t manipulation, look up the definition again. It’s just telling someone what they want to hear to get what you want. Game: A trivial little game predicated on our evolved great ape seduction instincts. The otherwise described “gift of the gab” is either a talent or skill or both nonetheless.

To say it’s something you can learn or build on is correct. To say it improves the person or society (sElF iMpRoVeMeNt) is irrational. It’s all based on fleeting emotional appeal, not necessarily (typically) anything ethical that will build a strong relationship between people.

Otherwise, we’d all be honest with exactly what we want. But honesty is a death sentence for the majority of anyone trying to just go on a date, let alone get any results.

M_LaSalle · 2022-10-13T15:44:07+00:00

Even if OP were right, OP would still be wrong. Temporary success is still success. A struggling guy will accept an HFN even if he can't have an HEA. He needs to be attractive to a girl, and she likely won't be attracted to him unless he acts in an attractive way. That doesn't mean he has to lie or manipulate, but he does have to put his best foot forward.

It is unlikely that the first girl a fellow dates will be his One True Love, his Happily Ever After. Dating is mostly a string of temporary limited successes ending in a long term partnership.

But OP felt the need to dump on Red Pill and the concept of game

OkConcentrateNow · 2022-10-13T15:42:04+00:00

The whole argument is based on an incorrect understanding of what is called "game".

"Game" is not being a lying, cheating piece of shit. It is mainly about deploying the charm and charisma which lies latent in every man and comes out with people he is comfortable with.

I am naturally a good conversationalist, charming, socialble etc but in the beginning I had difficulty in getting out of my head. Now after talking to so many girls I can present my true self from the get go. That's game in my case.

Freevoulous · 2022-10-14T11:25:05+00:00

Its true, but at the same time "fake it till you make it" is also true.

It takes several dozen successes with women, and at least a few longer relationships for a man to learn the real thing and actually GROW into being an attractive man, at least psychologically.

Which means, the first few times must be faked to at least some degree. All guys do it, except some small minority uses professional Game while the rest just make stuff up on the spot and hope it works.

Its basically the same problem as "we wont hire someone with no work experience".

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gymbro718NYC · 2022-10-13T15:44:12+00:00

I don't think this is very realistic thinking. I may like a woman for her, but if she doesn't wear make up, take care of hygiene or grooming and dresses like she is lounging around the house all the time, I will eventually be turned off.

Women are attracted to confident and competent males not nervous and shy guys. Shyness might be endearing here and there but you get quickly tired of it. Essentially perfect game is you being comfortable and accepting of yourself despite your flaws. That's true confidence.

retal1ator · 2022-10-13T22:17:23+00:00

I think people should be the best version of themselves when dating, meaning being themselves with all their quirks and weird sides but also trying to be interesting overall.

You’re also assuming only men display a different version of themselves when interacting with the opposite sex. How about women? Women literally fake their persona with makeup, and many women employ some form of “game” by avoiding showing the worst parts of their personality at the initial stages of dating. It’s very common for both sexes to be somewhat manipulative.

Banestar66 · 2022-10-16T16:48:36+00:00

Exactly why I’m not redpill.

Reasonable-Pea-2772 · 2022-10-14T02:11:36+00:00

Look game ain't fooling no one. You can't game being an emotionally intelligent, confident, attractive dude. You may think you can but there are so many tell signs that give it away.

Title	The problem with "game" and fake it until you make it is it's essentially manipulation, not genuine attraction, which can only last so long
Author	Cjaylyle
Upvotes	33
Comments	81
Date	October 13, 2022 3:02 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/y30zl7/the_problem_with_game_and_fake_it_until_you_make/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-problem-with-game-and-fake-it-until-you-make.1208502 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208502

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