What makes the Red Pill wrong?

rumple5skins · 2020-01-08T14:11:27+00:00

Applying RP strategy can get you laid, so it’s hard to argue that it doesn’t work, but it has a long term trap built into it: it states that manipulation and insincerity are parts of every relationship (even ones that are otherwise healthy), and this leads directly to devaluing and depersonalizing women. The end result of believing in the AWALT dogma is that women are fuckable garbage who just want to use and hurt you and there’s no way to have a healthy relationship with a woman when you think that way.

This means RP is counterproductive if you want a long term monogamous partnership of some kind, because it changes your perception of your partner from a woman with human needs to a vampiric leech that will happily destroy you to get what she wants. No matter how many women there are who fit that profile, going into every relationship expecting it dooms you to failure

king_of_red_alphas · 2020-01-08T08:50:04+00:00

TRP’s basic template for understanding female attraction patterns are sound and will help most men maximize their success in the dating market, but they MUST be individualized depending on the girl.

Unfortunately, the sub itself slowly devolved into a dogmatic alt-right circle jerk more interested in demonizing women as a group rather than staying with its stated mission of “sexual strategy”

AWALT is correct in a very broad sense, but breaks down in practice.

AWALT can apply to fundamental things like “women don’t like weak men” or “they break rules for alphas” but it doesn’t tell the whole story.

“Weak” can mean very different things to different women.

Same with “alpha”

A skinny guitar boy gets laid by as many girls, as Lacrosse playing Chad.

Who is “more alpha”?

Skinny guitar boy might think “awalt” I’m not ripped enough for Stacy the Cheerleader when he’s simply applying TRP concepts to the wrong demographic.

AWALT dogma can lead you to believe “me lift. me alpha” but that’s absolute bullsshit.

On paper, most lifting obsessed TRP trump worshipers would label Russel Brand a “beta” by his superficial characteristics, but we all know he’s not.

I think the importance of the “Contextual Chad” is one of the most overlooked parts of TRP discussion.

Mark Manson’s book “Models” probably has the most realistic and healthy application of TRP style ideas I’ve seen.

CHAD_TDK · 2020-01-08T16:38:54+00:00

Here's 1 truth:

Some women (but not all), some time (but not all the time) are down for NSA sex as much as guy wish, no need for commitment or relationship.

That was eye-opening to me who I thought that 99.99% of time a committed relationship, or at least serious dating, was the only way to have sex.

The reality is that is very possible and common and very much fun to have random hookups and prolonged FWB arrangement with women while they are out there looking for the one. All of my FWB arrangments have been with women who were also out there looking for LTR/marriage.

saladfingers4141 · 2020-01-08T07:36:56+00:00

The positives are that from what I can tell is it helps young men who have no confidence in talking to women get some level of understanding about how to appear more desirable sexually and be more confident in themselves.

The negative is that it's all about manipulation and not respecting or even liking women. If you're straight and dont like or respect people of the opposite gender you are going to be miserable.

sublimemongrel · 2020-01-08T13:14:37+00:00

They don’t understand women beyond a very surface level. Which is ironic because this is exactly what they purport to do. Very simple truths like “women like dominant men” become twisted to sometimes ludicrous degrees. Women become these one dimensional caricatures.

MirrorThaoss · 2020-01-08T08:59:47+00:00

It's hard to perfectly tell because the community is not consistent, they have conflicting views and opinion and what could be considered "consensus RedPill knowledge" is correct but not as intetesting because it doesn't say so much.

What is mostly wrong with TRP is their reddit community, there are too many cringy young men or anger phase boys

diffdedbed · 2020-01-08T14:54:13+00:00

Love.

TRP fails there.

poppy_blu · 2020-01-08T10:02:57+00:00

Almost every single TRP on PPD make posts and comments that allude to that individual 'not getting sex'.For example 'women are too picky' 'women have low libidos' or 'women like to use men for materialistic gain'. COnversively, you never see posts that allude to the opposite like 'this plate is different to that plate' and 'this women likes this sexual thing' and so on.

In short - you have to sieve through the former posts to get any of the latter. It makes me really question that TRP has been successful for these men. I've seen a similar trend on r/asktrp

Grek27 · 2020-01-09T16:48:17+00:00

Nothing does, it's a completely accurate summary of the average western women.

Societies which haven't let them runamok enforce cultural ideals into them which are more consistent with women you want for an LTR and that's where I'm going to focus on for myself.

Notanalt4859384 · 2020-01-08T07:26:20+00:00

They have ZERO concept of female individuality. They think all women are the same and want the exact same thing; which couldn't be further from the truth

Blue_Andre · 2020-01-08T12:46:16+00:00

It's not "wrong." People object to the people itself and want to dismiss the theory or small parts of the theory, even though as a whole it is correct. The way you apply it is a whole other discussion. Meanwhile you have subs such female dating strategies or pink pill which no one complains about even though it is simply a reactionary, anti-man playground.

There is no red pill for women. Women are generally not that rational or introspective and are more emotional - those are not value judgements but facts. Men need to "take the red pill" as they are mislead by society, media etc in terms of female nature and what attracts women as well as what a real man is.

That is not the case for women. In fact, women are being misled to lose their femininity. They are not being decieved about what men want. Men on the other hand are being misled and coerced to lose their masculinity and also being misled about what women want. Then you also have divorce courts and laws that are clearly biased against men, among so many other things in government and society. Some of those things are natural, but not when you have equated the roles, responsibilities and rights of men and women. Women want all the benefits of perceived equality but none of the drawbacks. In a natural society, men will "step up to the plate" as women want, but women will also obey and follow the men. You cant have it both ways. There is a give and take.

majani · 2020-01-08T13:05:37+00:00

As a red piller, I think The Wall and the alpha/beta dichotomy are the most contentious topics.

I think the Wall is not the only reason women have the epiphany to go for more beta guys. I've seen things like poverty, single motherhood and lifestyle envy make women turn from seeking hot alphas to seeking rich betas.

On the alpha/beta dichotomy, I think it's too vaguely defined, which has allowed people to hijack the definition and twist it to their own thing

Claire1010321 · 2020-01-08T13:25:19+00:00

Butt sex on first date or she is a gold digger

Workaholiconew · 2020-01-08T17:35:09+00:00

Basically?

Dogmatism and willing ignorance.

Basically, Many in TRP knows a bit of tips and tricks of TRP, some explanations and some ideas, but don't go on to discover the 'why it is correct' or even the details of each ideas, which lead to less than stelar behavior and ideas.

Heck, there are even old theories which were changed years ago, because some new research showed up and many TRP didn't get the updated their theories. (Like the idea that alpha and beta traits are 2 independent variables, not some sliding scale)

People need to keep their eyes more on the theorycrafting section, you would be surprised on how advanced they are and how they discuss well their scientific papers. Yeah, yeah, they are laymen and mistake and misuse a lot of the information, but with enough trials, errors and many brains working together they get various insights which can be comparable to something the best scientists I know could come up.

akaean · 2020-01-08T18:43:27+00:00

I want to step in for a second, and give my full fledged opinion on why the Red Pill is wrong. Because its a deeper issue than just, "the red pill is too rigid", or "the red pill doesn't always give good advice". The real issue with the red pill is how it is used and how it is presented.

The red pill is a trojan horse for toxic anti-feminist and alt-light ideologies. Maybe it wasn't always so, but it is now. What the red pill does is internalize an incredibly dark and hostile world view centered around dehumanizing and demonizing women, then packaging that into common sense dating advise.

The red pill doesn't argue in good faith. Really there are two faces of the red pill, on the one hand there is the presentable face of "this is advise for men to improve themselves and help them get laid!" (this is mostly the red pill taking credit for plagiarized common sense advice) and there is the true red pill, which is at its core about defining women and the world in such a way as to dehumanize them (AF/BB, AWALT, etc).

So when you argue against the red pill, and say something like: "This is a philosophy of hate", you will get a hundred answers about how "that isn't really the red pill" or "the real red pill is about [insert common sense human relation tip]". So what happens, is the red pill will assert some common sense thing, define common sense as the red pill, and as soon as someone falls into its orbit begins injecting anti-feminism and hatred into its arguments and explanations.

I suppose I should support my claims here. I think the presented "face" of the red pill has some really good advice. Don't be afraid to approach girls you are interested in, be confident, don't be a 'nice' guy , don't try to manipulate your friends into sleeping with you, etc. What I don't like is that the red pill tries to take ownership of all of these things. Which is inappropriate. Most of the actual good parts of the red pill are basically universal conversation skills and observations that are applicable in a broad variety of situations. You aren't going to tell me with a straight face that Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People is "red pilled". That is ridiculous. Yet, this is the deception that the red pill is founded on. Take common sense advice for effective communication, reword and define them as being "red pilled"... and voila! You've constructed a first line of defense, you've defined the red pill as common sense (that it plagiarized), and now your enemies oppose common sense.

Where the red pill really starts to get bad though is how they package their common sense arguments. Lets look at the "friendzone".

The red pill will say that being a "nice guy" is an ineffective dating strategy, because women will see you as a "beta male" or "orbiter", and that women don't appreciate "nice guys"

A normal person will tell you that the "friendzone" isn't real, and that people don't have any obligation to sleep with one of their friends. You wouldn't ask expect same sex friends to sleep with you would you. Moreover, it is actually manipulative to try to exploit someones' trust like that and holding yourself out as someones friend when you only have intentions for sleeping with them is rather cruel.

The advise is the same. However, the red pill is telling people that it isn't their fault, that its actually women's fault. Essentially the message is that there is nothing wrong with you per se for expecting sex out of your friends, and that the only reason women don't reward you with sex is because they are innately bad, and that therefore you should adopt the red pill philosophy so you can take advantage of how women actually are. The advice might be good, but the reasoning it is packaged with is specifically designed not to tell the truth... but to be an easier- dare I say it- pill to swallow for fragile male egos. "the problem isn't with you, the problem is with the world".

The well goes deeper than that. Once a red piller can 'relax' where they feel that they don't have to defend their reasoning from others, more of this information comes out. "All Women are Like That". Concepts like Hypergamy have been redefined (it is officially defined as marrying above ones class), then the redefined definition is used to discredit the choices that women make with their free will. There is also a strong undercurrent of pro abuse positions- where many red pillers believe that "alphas" cannot be abusive, or that women like abuse from alphas, etc. Which is horrible in itself. But as soon as you try to call out some of these undercurrents, the same defenders will walk it all back, tell you that isn't what the red pill is really about, and that its really about MaLe ImPrOvEmEnT.

My last jab is at how the red pill argues against its detractors. See, the blue pill was originally created as a mock / watchdog tag of people who didn't believe in the red pill. What the red pill has done, is assigned a set of values to the blue pill, then argue against those straw man values. The biggest switcheroo they do, is they refer to their own recruitment base as "blue pilled".

"nice guys" the much lamented "nice guy" is at his best a confused man who feels entitled to success with women. He feels that because he treats people with respect that he is entitled to a woman. His own views are rooted in entitlement and misogyny. He is the ideal recruit for the red pill. He is someone who is sexually frustrated, and rather than take a moment of introspection has decided that the blame lies fully with women. The red pill then swoops in and says, "oh my you poor baby, you are what we call 'blue pilled' and think that niceness and respect is a good mating strategy, well you are wrong, but its not your fault buddy, its actually women's fault and here is what you need to do to get with them!" The red pill repackages male entitlement in such a way that it connects with other misogynists, while at the same time painting their recruiting pool the colors of their ideological opponents which can be used to discredit the blue pill in the future. This is why the red pill is so friendly to "nice guys", despite pretty flat out saying that they were fools.

Anyway, tl;dr the red pill is dumb. Its a philosophy of hatred repackaged in a candy coat of plagiarized common sense. CMV ;)

RF111164 · 2020-01-08T12:51:02+00:00

Something I disagree with r/TheRedPill but I also laugh at is the idea that Game is what matters most. Game is just a pseudo-indication of status. The more confident you game a woman, the higher your status is perceived to be. This may be true at school, where all children are tabula rasa in terms of social status (their parents' status doesn't play an important role) and they form their own status hierarchy with respect to courage, physical strength, sport competence, etc., but it's not true in the society. A good-looking male janitor with excellent game has literally no chance to bed an attractive female doctor or lawyer.

I also laugh at the so called "RP veterans" using their money and status to attract girls but have convinced themselves that it's their game that gets them laid.

Don't get me wrong: game DOES play an important role but within the limits specified by one's status in the society.

HellenicLady · 2020-01-08T12:28:55+00:00

Literally everything they say is only a half-truth AT BEST.

If you listen to TRP an internalize it, you would think that women are more narcissistic than men, more likely to cheat etc. Statistics show that the opposite happens. It is men who are more selfish and narcissistic and it is men who are more likely to cheat. Here's a list of some misleading TRP claims.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ekus5z/debunking_some_of_the_halftruths_that_trpthe/

TRP is an echo chamber, plain and simple. Their narrative would collapse by looking at simple statistics , which is why you rarely see a Red Piller debating honestly. Most of them make outrageous claims and then backtrack when called out.

Sparkey69 · 2020-01-08T08:08:06+00:00

Red-pillers are like feminists. They seek help and protection from a group after their failures and learn to hate and blame the other gender for everything bad that happens to them. It is like a vortex that is very hard to come out of. They close their minds and destroy their relationships, and become people no one wants to be around. Feminists have to settle for cucks and bang real men on the side or turn lesbian and find a partner who is two times their size and forces them to eat coochie cheese. Red-pillers turn to drugs and alcohol and masturbate to underwear they take from the clotheslines of fat middle-aged women. Sometimes they have to change their sex to at least capture the attention of creepy males that like to masturbate to shemales. That is the only action they'll ever get.

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Speaker7 · 2020-01-08T07:26:00+00:00

You're going to have to state what you think is right or wrong first. Why did you adopt TRP beliefs and then abandon them?

2020-01-08T09:10:48+00:00

This seems awfully vague.

ifelsedowhile · 2020-01-08T12:27:23+00:00

field reports seem exaggerated. but then again I'm not an alpha so I don't know how it's really like.

G77R23D · 2020-01-08T12:43:54+00:00

Why are you ex red pill?

Redpiller77 · 2020-01-08T14:36:49+00:00

TRP isn't wrong, some users are. TRP is just a tool set. The only rule with with dealing with women is be high status, whatever that may be depending the context (rich, strong, smart, outgoing, interesting). TRP also doesn't hate women (some users do, though), it just teaches that women aren't just because they have a vagina

FatmanO · 2020-01-08T15:18:02+00:00

If the red pill made no mention of women,would you still be red pill? Just curious because I don't think the red pill puts women down, it just gives you a playbook...at the end of the day you make the call,not Rollo or whoever else.

MuleFool42 · 2020-01-08T17:27:36+00:00

I don't think it gets much wrong. It pretty accurately details female nature. Why do you think it is too narrow?

Twiteena · 2020-01-08T17:28:48+00:00

AWALT is simply too broad a brush. As I have stated over and over, people all like different things and my female friends pick the worst looking guys but they seem genuinely in love and think he is "alpha" when he clearly is not. The fact that beta males get married to women who sincerely believe "Yowza, he's all mine ladies!" is proof that NAWALT.

GreenSatyr · 2020-01-08T17:32:47+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

"Not even wrong" describes an argument or explanation that purports to be scientific but is based on invalid reasoning or speculative premises that can neither be proven correct nor falsified and thus cannot be discussed in a rigorous and scientific sense.[1] For a meaningful discussion on whether a certain statement is true or false, the statement must satisfy the criterion of falsifiability, the inherent possibility for the statement to be tested and found false. In this sense, the phrase "not even wrong" is synonymous to "nonfalsifiable".[1]

exparadox1989 · 2020-01-09T01:21:12+00:00

It's a theory that is being constantly redefined. There is nothing wrong with the theory. If you are unsuccessful in your pursuit of ONS or LTR then the problem lies within you.

Im RP to the bone and have no problems getting either. Yes, I'm jaded against women, but moreso against the fantasy of an unconditionally loving partner. But I'd rather understand Briffault's Law than stumble through life exposed to the emotional oscillations of women. RP has allowed me to truly understand women's motivations and predilections, given me guidelines to get what I want out of relationships, and the confidence to forego women and relationships in their entirety (remember, she's mot yours, it's just your turn). I can legitimately say that I have a IDGAF mentality when it comes to sex and relationships. Women come and go, and my SMV is high enough that I will invariably end up with another girl in my bed asking for a relationship soon after the last chic leaves (thanks RP!).

The unsuccessful, jaded minority are the most vocal. Successful RP men aren't on the forum ranting and raving.

In summary, the truth is ugly. That's the only problem with RP. Ignorance is bliss.

Overarching_Chaos · 2020-01-09T01:21:40+00:00

AWALT: You can’t claim that literally 100% of women, out of 3.5 billion which have been raised in completely different cultures, operate the exact same way.

Actual misogyny: Unlike feminists claiming that if you breathe next to a woman, it’s misogynistic rape, TRP philosophy teaches actual resentment of women. Yes, on average women have certain get out of jail cards men don’t, but hating them for it won’t gain you anything.

TRP can be attractive because it speaks some truths that are not common knowledge, but it is absolutist and dogmatic. Hating women is counterproductive.

bonobo-no · 2020-01-09T16:51:14+00:00

The whole "alpha male" "macho man" stuff is absolute BS. It makes me laugh when I see it.

2020-01-12T09:27:03+00:00

Truths:

Many women are shitty
In many instances men are treated unfairly by women
Men and women are different and present themselves and communicate differently
Much of our romantic behaviour stems from biology and evolutionary adaptations.

Lies:

All women are shitty
Men generally want to help their fellow men
Staying away from women will bring men happiness
That women all get attention from men
That all women want men
That anything you do will have an impact on society as a whole

Million-Suns · 2020-01-08T14:10:44+00:00

The Red pill is just a toolset.

I don't see how it can be good/bad, right/wrong. People will use it differently and much or less success.

It however upsets women who do not like having female nature debunked like that and non naturals.

Orange_Paisley · 2020-01-08T08:02:16+00:00

Everything.

Title	What makes the Red Pill wrong?
Author	FatmanO
Upvotes	24
Comments	303
Date	January 8, 2020 7:22 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/elph3s/what_makes_the_red_pill_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-makes-the-red-pill-wrong.305942 https://theredarchive.com/post/305942

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