When complaining about problems you have doesn’t work

[–]UVVISIBLE 1777 points1778 points1779 points 6 years ago (111 children) | Copy Link

[–]FakeReaction1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (86 children) | Copy Link

I once had a friend that took a Women studies course. She had to read an article about obesity; it just basically says obese people are not the main causes of obesity, it's the society that increases the rate, which is quite ridiculous considering how the article subjectively blame restaurants for doing what they do rather than blaming their own unhealthy routines.

and yes, of course they read about obesity in Women Studies.

and yes, that friend believed it, she also believes in gender pay gap that she could never find any kinds of examples or evidences to back her arguments. She just said "it does happen".

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[–]marcelolopezjr 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Why is this not upvoted to the SKY?

I'll tell you why...because this is real, and because to a ONE (I'm looking at Evergreen College in Washington State as an example) universities have not only turned from institutions to teach critical thinking based on information that you can corroborate, to institutions that deconstruct and shame everyone into thinking "you've been wronged".

Men have wronged women.

Parents have wronged children.

Governmental structures have wronged the populace.

Business structures have wronged the workers.

Do you see the fallacies in there? No? Look up the construct of the word "HAVE". It's a Verb in the PRESENT TENSE.

Now follow along with me. It's not that there isn't SOME (a **quantifiable measure** of information that can be corroborated) truth to those statements. It's that they're taken as THE (a determiner, in other words deterministic, as in a form of an absolute).

In effect those statements which are taught in universities today (and probably have, I probably didn't realize it because I stuck to STEM studies.). How do I know this, because I have had two sons just finish their studies and **I TALKED TO THEM** (as in, we had conversations) about what courses they were taking, what sorts of thinking they were exposed to.

This is how society has been changed. Change the youth, change the future.

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[–]throworkaway20181 points 6 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

That would be great. In fact, it is. It is called Sociology, not Misanthropy Studies.

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[+]InfieldTriple -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

it just basically says obese people are not the main causes of obesity, it's the society that increases the rate

I mean... this is true. Would you agree that healthy food is, on average, more expensive than unhealthy food? Would you also agree that unhealthy food is, on average, more accessible than healthy food?

I think that posed statements implied in the questions are true, which suggests that eating healthy has gotten harder with time. Unless of course you have money. Then you can afford a gym pass, all the healthy foods and processors to make them easier to consume.

And if you were born into a wealthier family, you grow up eating healthy and, AFAIK, eating healthy at a young age makes it easier to stay thin as you age.

Also obesity rates are rising, which means they were lower in the past. It's reasonable to assume that "this generation" isn't more "prone" to obesity (you'd have to go to great lengths to convince someone this is the case). Could the increase in income inequality, as well as the increase in the availability and decrease in price of unhealthy (high-calorie) foods affect the obesity rates? I think the answer is yes, it could. I don't know for sure. But I think an argument can be made that society and the way it operates can affect obesity rates.

Can an individual person make changes to their lifestyle to lose weight in the present day? Yep, of course!

I should not that your point of

it just basically says ...

Also completely describes my post.

and yes, of course they read about obesity in Women Studies.

The name may suggest it, but its not just about women.

she also believes in gender pay gap that she could never find any kinds of examples or evidences to back her arguments. She just said "it does happen".

And truthfully it does. Any well meaning person defines the pay gap as: the average pay difference between genders. Not within a field or for a particular role (like entry level engineers, or CEOs). A pay gap doesn't exist there.

The pay gap has never, and will never, refer to a difference in wage between individuals in similar roles, in an academic setting (i.e. in a Women's Studies course).

You might thinnk that that definition of the pay gap is bad for a host of reasons. Fine. I disagree but I can live with it. But there is a gap in pay, just not where you think everyone means.

[–]Gnagetftw 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]hamillhair 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Just a couple of points:

Could the increase in income inequality, as well as the increase in the availability and decrease in price of unhealthy (high-calorie) foods affect the obesity rates?<

I can only speak for the UK, but it is not true that income inequality has increased. I was checking the stats a couple of years ago and income inequality in the UK has dropped significantly (despite what everyone actually thinks has happened).

Also, I don't agree that healthy food is more difficult to access. When I was a student I had to live on a shoestring. It is pretty easy to buy cheap and healthy food. I could get a month's worth of frozen vegetables for less than £10.

The pay gap has never, and will never, refer to a difference in wage between individuals in similar roles, in an academic setting (i.e. in a Women's Studies course).

You might thinnk that that definition of the pay gap is bad for a host of reasons. Fine. I disagree but I can live with it. But there is a gap in pay, just not where you think everyone means.

This is what makes it an utterly worthless statistic. Women on average overall earn less money than men on average overall. So what? There are so many variables that the number is meaningless. That's why you have to account for like roles, career choices, time out to have kids, hours worked etc etc.

[–]InfieldTriple -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I can only speak for the UK, but it is not true that income inequality has increased. I was checking the stats a couple of years ago and income inequality in the UK has dropped significantly (despite what everyone actually thinks has happened).

I don't know about the UK, tbh. Don't live there. But the income inequality in the world as a whole is just getting worse and worse.

This is what makes it an utterly worthless statistic. Women on average overall earn less money than men on average overall. So what? There are so many variables that the number is meaningless. That's why you have to account for like roles, career choices, time out to have kids, hours worked etc etc.

Hard disagree about it being worthless.

career choices

Shit thing to control for when you consider the fact that for all of human history, women were simply not allowed some jobs. The choices women make now and have in the past are very much affected by what society perceives to be a woman's job.

time out to have kids

Society NEEDS kids. I don't care how you twist it. So again, not worth controlling for.

Obviously it makes to control for different things but in general, the truth is that woman are making less money than men. And a lot less. We should care about why this is the case and we shouldn't dismiss it because of our perceived notions about what women actually want (hint: its financial independence)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]hugenstein42 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]hamillhair 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about the UK, tbh. Don't live there. But the income inequality in the world as a whole is just getting worse and worse.

It actually isn't. What is happening is that you are becoming more aware of it. I'd have to dig up the actual statistics, but poverty has dropped by something like 50% in the last couple of decades. The difference between the richest and the poorest is still massive, don't get me wrong, but to say it is getting worse is incorrect. It is not.

Obviously it makes to control for different things but in general, the truth is that woman are making less money than men. And a lot less. We should care about why this is the case and we shouldn't dismiss it because of our perceived notions about what women actually want (hint: its financial independence)

This is basically what I just said. The point is that women making less money than men is not necessarily a problem in and of itself. As you say, the question is "why?" That is why you have to control for things like career choices, children and so on. If women in general are making less money than men because they are being descriminated against (e.g. By being paid less for the same work, denied promotion because they're a woman, etc.) then there is a problem. If women in general are being paid less because they in general prefer to work jobs with fewer hours then there is no problem, even though the net effect is the same.

This is why the "gender pay gap" is a useless statistic. It gives no useful information. There is a gap. OK, so what? Is that a problem? Maybe, maybe not. That is why the controls are important.

[–]InfieldTriple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

poverty has dropped by something like 50% in the last couple of decades

You can have no people living in poverty and still have income inequality.

If women in general are making less money than men because they are being descriminated against (e.g. By being paid less for the same work, denied promotion because they're a woman, etc.) then there is a problem. If women in general are being paid less because they in general prefer to work jobs with fewer hours then there is no problem, even though the net effect is the same.

I know what you clearly are missing. You seem to lack the ability to recognize that just because no individuals are hurting anyone, then there can't be a problem. Specifically, your examples of "By being paid less for the same work, denied promotion because they're a woman" are often problems with individuals. Someone is making a choice to pay women less. I reject this notion. Problems can exist in society even if there isn't anyone at fault.

The problem we have is two-fold: (a) Jobs that are dominated by women are paid less and (b) the jobs that women dominate are jobs that were either (i) low responsibility like admin assistant or (ii) a job that basically mirrors the gender role of being a women (e.g. childcare).

Basically, I think western society (where I live so can't speak to other places as well) has gotten a lot better with beating gender roles and giving women the opportunity to be more independent. However, there still are many remnants of the past, specifically the two problems (a) and (b) I listed above. There isn't a villain in this. Its just clear that we are changing and we still have room to improve towards being an equal society.

EDIT: Also in regards to

they in general prefer to work jobs with fewer hours

Why? Because they are still expected to take care of their children and family while working full-time. Its a choice for some women but others don't get to make the choice. Its just what they are expected to do.

[–]hamillhair 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Inequality exists, so what? If the world is making progress towards eliminating poverty, which it is, and becoming less unequal, which it also is, then what is the problem. Inequality of some kind will always exist because people are different. You cannot force people to be equal.

The problem we have is two-fold: (a) Jobs that are dominated by women are paid less and (b) the jobs that women dominate are jobs that were either (i) low responsibility like admin assistant or (ii) a job that basically mirrors the gender role of being a women (e.g. childcare).

Jobs that are paid less that are dominated by women are not paid less because they are dominated by women. They are paid less regardless of who is doing them. You are missing my point. Some causes of inequality are bad, some aren't. I'm not saying that inequality doesn't exist, I'm saying that the gender wage gap is useless because it does not distinguish between the causes that aren't a problem and those that are; it lumps them all together and says "this is bad", when the reality is a lot more nuanced than that.

However, there still are many remnants of the past, specifically the two problems (a) and (b) I listed above. There isn't a villain in this. Its just clear that we are changing and we still have room to improve towards being an equal society.

Of course. And I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that the gender wage gap is a useless way of doing it.

Gender roles existed throughout history for one very good reason. Child mortality of 70% meant that most women had to be pregnant most of the time in order to maintain the population. Having children literally was the most valuable contribution a woman could make to society, since without it there was no society. The simultaneous improvements in healthcare and contraception over the last century have changed things, but it takes longer than a couple of generations to overcome 200,000 years of psychological necessity.

[–]InfieldTriple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Inequality exists, so what? If the world is making progress towards eliminating poverty, which it is, and becoming less unequal, which it also is, then what is the problem.

LOL Things got better because people fought for it. This is some high quality bullshit.

"Hey peasants in the year 900, you have it better than those in the year 800 so shut up and keep quiet. Don't try to make life better for yourself or anyone else."

^ That's you.

Anyway, I'm not even challenging you to change, only asking you to acknowledge that its a bad thing if women have less money than men.

Also, I'm not suggesting that women should take care of their children less, I'm suggesting that we should take care of women with children.

Jobs that are paid less that are dominated by women are not paid less because they are dominated by women. They are paid less regardless of who is doing them.

No you aren't getting it. They are paid pennies because they are "womens" jobs. If you can't see that then you are lost. Then again, should've expected it. Given the sub we are on.

[–]hamillhair 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyway, I'm not even challenging you to change, only asking you to acknowledge that its a bad thing if women have less money than men.

But it isn't necessarily, for the reasons I have stated. It can be, but women getting less money than men is not necessarily bad because it depends what the reason is. Sexism is one reason, but it is not the only one.

Also, I'm not suggesting that women should take care of their children less, I'm suggesting that we should take care of women with children.

We already do. The UK has paid maternity leave for up to a year for new mothers. But it is simple economics that a parent who takes time off to look after children is not going to advance their career. This is true for men as well as women. Since women are the ones who have the babies it is somewhat inevitable that they will take more time off. I have yet to meet a new mother who preferred her career over her baby. I don't think this is due to societal expectations. Every new mother I know has relished taking time off work to be with their baby. Not one of them gave a stuff about the money.

No you aren't getting it. They are paid pennies because they are "womens" jobs. If you can't see that then you are lost. Then again, should've expected it. Given the sub we are on.

No they are not.

[–]thatsmrboss2u 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Never have I ever seen someone so wrong in so many ways, all at once.

Healthy food is not more expensive than unhealthy food. As far a accessibility, it’s called a grocery store, they are common.

You do not have to be wealthy to have a gym membership, nor is a gym required for getting exercise. And healthy food does not require exotic machinery to make it easier to consume. Basic kitchen stuff anyone would have.

I doubt the assertion that wealthy = healthier eating habits. But hey I’ll give you this one. What I won’t give you is the underlying implication that somehow this is an injustice on the poor. There will always be people with more and always people with less. The fact that people with more enjoy the fruits of that status is not immoral, or at least not inherently so.

As for society acting on people, people make up society. Your next point can be paraphrased: society makes people fat, not an individual’s choices. It’s kind of the opposite. The reason unhealthy food is so readily and cheaply available is because people like to buy it. It’s not this external force acting on all of us, it’s all of us collectively saying, yeah I prefer a cheeseburger.

And pay gap, you’re right if we define it your way. In that there’s a difference in what people get paid based on what job they do. But I’m sorry that is just not true that people define it your way. The words always uttered at the end of someone talking about pay gap are “for the same job.” And if we aren’t talking about the same job why is it worth discussing? Person A makes less money than person B doing a completely different job. Hardly outrageous info.

[–]hugenstein42 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfieldTriple 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]hugenstein42 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfieldTriple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It's flat earth esque level of ridiculous.

This statement is "flat earth esque level of ridiculous".

From the link I sent (which you obviously neglected to read):

Statistics Canada notes that the measure above doesn’t account for the fact that full-time working women tend to work fewer hours than men, often because of family responsibilities. Thus, comparing the hourly wages of full-time working women to those of men provides a more precise picture of the wage gap. On this basis, women earned an average of 87 cents for every dollar earned by men in 2015.

So clearly there is a gap when you control for hours worked. Its smaller, naturally, but is still present.

Lets move on. First, lets agree on a simple fact: If you control for hours worked and job type the wage gap disappears. I think we both agree on this. However, there is good reason not to control for job type (again from the webpage):

[T]raditional “women’s work” pays less than traditional “men’s work.” Jobs that conform to traditional gender roles tend to be undervalued because they parallel domestic work that women were expected to perform for free. Research also suggests that when women make up a large percentage of a specific industry, wages become devalued.

And

For example, 97% of truck drivers in Canada are male and earn a median salary of $45,417 per year. In contrast, 97% of early childhood educators in Canada are female and earn a medial salary of $25,334 per year.

Four questions: 1. Can women be Truck drivers? 2. Can men be childhood educators? 3. Is there some element of choice for an individual to join either field regardless of gender? 4. Does societies perception on what qualifies as a women's/men's job affect these choices? 5. In the present day, the stigma for women to enter male dominated fields (like truck driving) has declined. Is it completely eliminated?

The point is that while both men and women can make a choice for what field to enter, that choice is heavily effected based on what are society's impressions on what constitutes a job for men and a job for women.

They use full time? Full time social worker vs full time oil rig roughneck?

See you have just contributed to the issue I'm talking about. Social work is not a Women's job yet is dominated by women. There is an argument to be made that working on a oil rig is going to always be dominated by men because men are naturally stronger than women. I don't think that accounts for the complete domination in this field (or in truck driving), but it certain would be a good idea being super strong for these jobs.

[–]hugenstein42 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfieldTriple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

The first paragraph contradicts itself in that even amongst full-time workers men are working more hours than women. That alone can easily account for the discrepancy.

No this is NOT the case:

[...] comparing the hourly wages of full-time working women to those of men provides a more precise picture of the wage gap. On this basis, women earned an average of 87 cents for every dollar earned by men in 2015.

You said:

That alone can easily account for the discrepancy.

No is can't. When accounted for women still make 13 less cents on average.

It comes down to their choice. Men could work as social workers and women can work in construction / heavy labor.

Do you really think that most secretaries are women now and historically because women wanted these jobs or because they were seen as the only jobs women could handle? This is just a fact if you go back to the 1950s. There is no debating this. I'm suggesting that these problems still exist and are only LESS severe.

You're largely discounting social pressures completely and I can't believe I have to say this and I know you'll dismiss it entirely, call me and SJW and laugh, but your privilege as a man has meant that you've never been pressured out of jobs you want because of your gender. You don't know what it feels like and so you deny it exists.

[–]hugenstein42 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No I've seen studies like this that were also done in Australia. With the exact sleight-of-hand. The paragraph states that even amongst full-timers men work more hours than women. They explicitly did not say that they adjusted for that. That's duplicitous in and of itself.

They did not adjust for the difference in hours worked. They merely state that it is a more equal measure than full-time men versus part-time women. They throw that sentence in there stating that men work more hours than women to throw you off the trail. If they accounted for that they damn sure will would have stated that.

There are societal pressures for the Sexes that is also undeniable.

If somebody wants to argue that I can respect it. If somebody wants to argue the hugely debunked thing that women are paid less for the same job they lose all credibility. Just stop doing it. Hang your hat on the societal pressures thing that at least has legitimacy.

[–]hugenstein42 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]DragonDraggin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]InfieldTriple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

An active lifestyle is virtually free.

Time isn't free

Water is way cheaper than Pepsi.

Can't argue here. But Pepsi is still readily available. Again the facts are all there. Junk food is more available than ever and everyone is more obese. I wonder why?!

The pay gap is a complete myth. There is an earnings gap, however.

Women are paid less than men, per hour. Just not at the same job. So yeah, there is a pay gap which is clear is day. There just is not gap that exists when you control for job type.

<Men are more likely to work overtime, weekends, holidays, third shift, dangerous jobs, etc.

I'd like to focus specifically on your use of the word "likely". Why is it likely? Why is it also likely that women won't have these jobs? Why is it that women take overtime less?

Women don't have these jobs simply because they are not seen as jobs for women. With time and good hiring policies, that will change with time.

Women take overtime less. That is a fact, but have you considered that they do this because of family responsibilities?

You see, women aren't holding women back. Its clear as day to researchers but impossible to see for people like you. Gender roles are holding women back. Sure, an oil rig will probably always be mostly men do to the strength requirements but there are MANY male dominated fields that don't require physical strength adn they are only male dominated because its not a job women are supposed to have. Women are discriminated against, maybe not intentionally, in STEM fields.

Society isn't holding you back, your talent is making excuses.

I'm a man btw.

See Harvard Bus Route Wage Gap Study.

Ahh yes. A public bus study explains all pay gap. Funny, it literally confirms that a pay gap exists in the abstract of the study LOL:

female workers earn $0.89 on the male-worker dollar

Yes its because men take more last minute overtime but (a) just because there is a reason don't mean it doesn't exist and (b) they state that women are taking time off because:

taking more unpaid time off using the Family Medical Leave Act

Women work less overtime, because they are responsible for their family and can't afford to randomly take last minute overtime shifts. Dad, however, who is less responsible for the carrying of his kids (not in every single family, obviously) can take the extra shift.

This is direct evidence of inequality between the two genders. Its literally the conclusion of the study that somehow show's that the wage gap doesn't exist. The female gender role is caregiver and housekeeper. Yes, we've gotten better. The number of women in the work force has gone up and up but we still expect women to be the main caregiver of their children. Sure, women should be able to choose this path but there is NO reason why women would choose this path more than men, on average, except because its their expected gender role, even when they're allowed to work.

[–]Dragon1562 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]hingledingleivan 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]hingledingleivan -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Bad parents deserve to be disrespected. Feeding them that frozen processed garbage when eating healthy is not that much more expensive is child abuse, and you don't deserve my respect for abusing your child. As for your second statement, you have an extremely defeatist view of human potential. You can overcome anything with discipline. Human will is way more powerful than a large portion of food. Instead of saying "well studies(which i bet you have never read and cannot cite) show that we are slaves to our animal desires", how about we empower people by telling them they are much more than their desires? 1/3 of the American population is obese because people like you tell them it's beyond their control, so they accept it. Plain and simple. I was raised by shitty parents who gave me shitty eating habits and left me in a society that constantly made excuses for me, weakening my will. I found myself being a 6'6", 365 lb man by the time i was age 21. I told myself it wasn't my fault. That i couldn't afford healthy food or i didn't have time to cook. Then, one fateful day, a new boss came to work. Took a liking to me. He's a champion powerlifter who knows EVERYTHING about the power of human will. He was the first person to actually get super harsh and real with me about weight and overcoming the excuses. He was crass and direct about it...and it was exactly what i fucking needed. Now here we are, 9 months later, and I'm down 140 lbs. I did it all on the same budget that made me fat, and didn't really alter my gym habits at all. What changed? Someone finally empowered me by telling me there is no fucking excuse for being obese, and that i had no one nor nothing to blame other than myself. it was harsh, but it was the only thing that changed me. Coddling me and making excuses like being served excessive portions only enabled my disease.

[–]Dragon1562 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Buddy, you have the moral mentality of a 6-year-old if you think a parent letting their kid eat school-provided lunch is child abuse. You are also making a ton of assumptions and blatantly ignoring that fact that on numerous instances I have stated that " I am very well aware of the fact that at the end of the day it is up to yourself not to let yourself be obese it can be difficult. "

Also, it is not my job to educate some random nobody on Reddit. I learned about these studies when I attended Penn State and took my psychology course and nutrition courses. So no I do not have my sources on hand for you good sir. It doesn't matter because this is a not a paper or debate. I also never mentioned anything about budget as an excuse so I don't know why you going on about that when all income levels eat school lunch and all income lunches have people that pack lunch.

The rest of the garbage you are spewing is all anecdotal and all about YOU. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it will work for others. Sorry but facts don't care about your feelings.

Although I will say congrats on losing the weight, I am glad you are healthy now physically.

[–]hingledingleivan -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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Science Technology Engineering Medicine, STEM

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Deleted you earlier comment I see

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The shame is that she's lying.

More omen complete high-school than men.
More women complete college than men.
More women receive master's degrees than men.
More women receive doctorates than men.
There are more women in law school than men.
There are more women in medical school than men.
More women receive bachelor's degrees in STEM fields than men
More women receive master's degrees in STEM fields than men.
More women receive MDs than men.
More women receive JDs than men.

Most of this has been true consistenly for a decade or more, and the only places where men still outnumber women in higher education are graduate programs in STEM that require high proficiency in mathematics (i.e. mathematics, engineering, physics).

So they've already built education system that looks like this, and yet the response is "we need more women in STEM." The misandry couldn't be more blatant.

[–]cragboy 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]J-Dubbleu 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe it's because I graduated high school 3 years ago, but if anything we've swung past it being equal in push towards STEM. There are a myriad of programs pushing women into STEM starting freshman year of high school. Obviously this happened because it takes time to see results from those peograms, but I think within the next 10 years this will drastically swing in favor of women. I could be entirely wrong as most of what I'm saying is anecdotal, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen. Hell, most of my math, chem, and compsci classes have been 60/40 women/men.

It could entirely be because I'm from California where no one cares about your skin/gender, just that you get out of their way in traffic, but I've never personally seen anyone push against women in STEM both in person and on the internet.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to push women towards STEM, I'm just concerned for those that aren't meant for it and are pushed towards it as the only option. Much like how we currently push way too many people to college, many of who would do better in a trade/running their own business.

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[–]Desolate_One1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Emily Chang

Emily Hsiu-Ching Chang?

In 2002, Chang graduated from Harvard University with a B.A magna cum laude in Social Studies.

I'm sold.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Luffest 381 points382 points383 points 6 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link

Back in college I needed some electives and guess what killed 2 with 1. Womens and Genders studied. I signed up for it with 2 of my other male friends. Other than us, there were 2 other boys in the class. The rest of the 30 something student class was girls. I didnt take it because I thought it would be mock-able and a meme. I took it because I just honestly thought it would be an easy pass for 2 classes. Some of the things I experienced however just...surprised me.

- When asked half the class blamed their parents for their sexual orientation. When the prof asked whether or not we thought our SEXUAL ORIENTATION was CREATED by who we hung out with when we were kids (IE girls encouraged to hang out with boys which...when? and boys encouraged to seek out girls) and that if we were left to our own devices we would now be gay, i scoffed. What a retarded question. 3/4 of the class raised their hands.

- When we were told to watch a documentary on Netflix about how women are discriminated against, my friend and I (admittedly angry with some of the stuff the documentary was saying) found out that LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE SOURCE the documentary used was under fucking Jezebel. The feminist website. In my response to the documentary which we posted online I called bullshit on literally everything with my own links to sources. I even wrote how its stupid that we are "believing this documentary" when we would get a failing grade in any college course if we only used one source like they did. I got an A, but the professor never mentioned mine in "some of my favorites" and when we were told to do class discussion the 1 girl who acknowledged that I even wrote something said "oh yea but it was really wrong I didn't read it."

- Who can forget the "Gender Pay Gap" and how when my friend pointed out, out loud, in class, that it had been debunked countless times, multiple students claimed that "no, I'm experiencing it now." How convenient not a single one ever took their complaint to the Dept. of Labor.

The entire class worked off of opinions. Everything was "what do you THINK about this?" and "personal experiences". It was a nightmare of a class and if I had the same "life experience" i have now (I graduated 2 years ago and took this class even before then) and didnt care so much about passing, I probably wouldve spent the entire two hours getting into arguments with the professor and students.

[–][deleted] 124 points125 points126 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

This is interesting to hear. I took a women's studies course also, and for the same reason - I needed a BS Humanities course. And to be honest, I was also faintly curious. My experience wasn't as crazy as yours was though, I have to say - maybe because I took the course way back in 2002 or so. Back then, identity politics hadn't yet gone full retard on college campuses. Still, there was plenty of BS to go around. The biggest thing I tangled with the professor over was double standards: "If a man has sex with a woman when she's drunk, that's rape." Meanwhile, not a peep on a woman having sex with a drunk man. "It's okay for that ex basketball player's wife to take half of his millions because HE didn't make that money, they BOTH made that money!" No mention as to how she made money by sitting at home and buying Gucci handbags.

I am a scientifically-minded person and challenged these issues whenever I could, and I did okay in the class, but I firmly believe that had I just parroted what the professor was spewing, I would have gotten a higher grade. It sounds like your efforts at least didn't result in your grades being penalized.

For those who are wondering if these womens/gender studies courses are really as vapid, unscientific, and outright nonsensical as they're hearing, both of our experiences ought to serve as examples that they are, to a lesser or greater degree. I encountered little in the way of facts and logic and you encountered...well, let's be honest here, you encountered absolute insanity, but either way, the subject is garbage.

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Just a heads up, but this is the keystone in the whole thing. Opinions. They move the goalposts for what constitutes truth and facts by using terms like "your truth". It removes the objectivity of any fact or nonfact and makes every opinion or experience "truth". The moment you hear someone say "your truth" be aware that they have either been completely brainwashed or cannot think for themselves or have an ulterior motive. If everyone has "a truth" that is "your truth" then "the truth" no longer is relevant. It's legitimately sanctioned obfuscation. You cannot, nor do you need to, prove "your truth" because it is subjective. It's opinion or personal experience with a different name. This is how these groups advance their ideas. They change the language to suit their needs/aims when the language that already exists doesn't help their goals. Like changing definitions of racism and sexism.

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There are too many variables to account for all of them in "any studies".

What it essentially boils down to, is that there is no proof that there are tons of women out there making less just because of their gender; heck, that's against the law. Sure, there most likely is still a lot of discrimination against x, y, z and everything in between, but this world as never been perfect, and we're a long, long, long way from reaching utopia. Like there are problems in this society that concern me a hell of a lot more than, "most skirts are sold to women because of, "muh, patriarchy!" Besides, I would look terrible in a skirt...

It is illegal to pay a woman less just because she's a woman, and more so, I have never seen it happen right in front of my eyes in my 40 years on this Earth; and I've had many, many jobs. Sure, fight the battle, and work towards making the world a better place for women, but since it's impossible to account for all of the variables, stop trying to tell me that your sources have successfully done so. Stop lying to me, it can't be done.

[–]Azianese -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

There are too many variables to account for all of them in "any studies".

So what are we to do? Say, "Welp we can never be sure, so let's just ignore it and not even attempt to find an answer"?

there is no proof that there are tons of women out there making less

You don't consider something proof =/= no proof exists

heck, that's against the law.

Because no one can consciously, subconsciously, or accidentally disobey the law, right?

I have never seen it happen right in front of my eyes

Do you expect people to walk up to you comparing paychecks in our current work culture?

but since it's impossible to account for all of the variables,

You should maybe consider the logical fallacy, argument from ignorance

stop trying to tell me that your sources have successfully done so. Stop lying to me, it can't be done

You know it's a red flag when someone says this without even asking for said sources.

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Let me put the gender pay gap in terms you can hopefully understand. You have already admitted to the nature of statistics and how they can be easily manipulated...and manipulated statistics is exactly where the pay gap myth comes from. If we properly worded the stats, it would be "women tend to earn less than men over the average lifetime"...a lot of people manipulate this stat to say "women are payed X percent less throughout their lives". The second statement is not true. Not exactly. Women who do equal work for equal time tend to be payed more than male counterparts. This is a provable fact. The reason women tend to earn less throughout the average lifetime is due to several factors, none of which are misogyny. Women tend to take less risks(a biological imperative), women are less aggressive and way less competitive, women tend to take(happily) lower paying positions in lower paying fields, women tend to take more time off(mostly because working when you're pregnant fucking sucks), and women tend to not ask for raises as much. Speaking specifically about STEM fields, women just don't have much interest in that stuff. No one is keeping them from getting that degree. Colleges take everyone who makes the grade and pays the tuition. Pretty simple. Now that you know all of that, can you not see how easily statistics have manipulated you? Yes, women tend to earn less than men in their lifetime....but no, women are not payed less than men in the same position. Hopefully you learned a lot from this. Not only that you're very wrong about the gender pay gap, but also how susceptible you are to manipulative data. You challenged us to examine our stats, and obviously most of us have. This isn't a shot at you, but maybe you should take more care at examining the stats to which you ascribe your beliefs? Because hopefully now you have seen your vulnerability to manipulative stats.

[–]AnarcrotheAlchemist 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't believe you just said that. Let's take a moment to let that sink in.

Check out the Grievance Studies Hoax paper (https://areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/academic-grievance-studies-and-the-corruption-of-scholarship/), this was some academics that wanted to show the flawed process of many of these social "sciences" journals review process.

Some of these Hoax papers were published and one was being considered for an award.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19tBy_fVlYIHTxxjuVMFxh4pqLHM_en18 in this public drive there are the papers they submitted and some of the reviewers comments relating to them.

Ideologues have undermined the credibility of scientific journals by being more worried that paper's are towing the intersectional line than ensuring that a rigorous and resilient experimental structure is used, that journal writers have not drawn conclusions that the results don't indicate, do not use presuppositions, clearly define definitions and experimental parameters that they are using, declare gaps in the experiment that require further study to further validate the findings, and declare assumptions.

Instead papers use presupposition, link to papers that are deeply flawed and sometimes even debunked, misinterpret/misquote and/or quote out of context other journals, and declare conclusions not backed up by the results of their experiments. These "soft" sciences have allowed extremely poor scientific standards to become the norm which has made it so that "peer reviewed papers" can be debunked.

[–]Azianese 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Let me requote my comment for you.

"Sure, people can misrepresent data, but that doesn't mean there's something to 'debunk' about it."

I can agree with everything you're saying, but that doesn't change the fact that peer reviewer papers, as a concept, is not something you can "debunk."

You debunk specific papers, not the idea of scientific journals, peer reviewed papers, etc.

The point of offering studies and other academic literature is not because they are a one-stop-shop to finding your answer. The point is to offer as evidence something that has followed the scientific method, is likely to have been reviewed and critiqued by academics, is more likely to present data that has accounted for confounding variables, etc.

Yes, academic literature has its pitfalls, as do all sources of information. And in the case that all sources of information are subject to being tainted by ideologues or misrepresentation, what source are you going to trust?

Edit: a word

[–]tris_majestis1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

"We need a healer!"

"Why don't you play a healer then?"

"Fuck you"

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Well, half the time the average woman really isn't strong enough to do the required heavy lifting.

I mean, sure, a certain woman may be stronger than a certain man, but in average, men are stronger because... biology.

I've worked a job where there was a lot of heavy lifting as part of the daily routine, and from over 30 men I worked with, only one couldn't do the lifting, and we fired his ass. We hired 5 women, and not one of them would do the lifting part, so everybody had to work a little harder to compensate for the women not lifting their part. I've also worked restaurants, and whenever there's heavy lifting to do, it's considered a task that should be done by the men.

Now, I have an aunt, that well past her prime, could outwork like 80% of the men out there, but she was an exception, and not the norm.

Sad part is, is that in today's societal norms, women will get hired for jobs that they can't really do because it looks good for the employer, or there's a grant, so the owner actually saves a lot of money by hiring a woman. Then, it makes the job site less secure, and puts the heavy lifting on the men to carry that unqualified person who can't do the work everybody else has to do or they'd get fired.

There's a point where favorable discrimination is still discrimination, and we see a lot of that in favor of women in today's society. It's like two wrong don't make a right. Sure, if you can do the job, and want to, you should have the opportunity to do it, but if you can't do the fucking job, you shouldn't let the door hit you the way out

[–]I_AM_TARA 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I've also worked restaurants, and whenever there's heavy lifting to do, it's considered a task that should be done by the men.

This is really common even in white collar office type jobs. And it’s not actually about “we need a man to do this because a woman couldn’t” but this old-fashioned idea of it being rude to let a woman lift things/open a door etc. And it’s especially awkward because neither a man nor a woman can speak up about it without getting some type of backlash.

I don’t know much about construction, but my current job does involve moving lots of heavy things and until fairly recently only men were hired for the position. And with these types of jobs, modern technology and safety standards are such that there’s really nothing a physically average woman cannot do. However our society is one where the lifestyle and beauty standards for women are such that most women are much weaker than they should be. Contrast this with women in underdeveloped countries who routinely carry 100+ pound loads of firewood for miles.

Tl;dr It’s not biology. Women just need to hit the gym more and everyone needs to stop being all weird about women doing any type of physical labor. The point at which things actually become too heavy for woman to lift is also way past the point men should use a pallet jack/hand truck/a second or third pair of hands anyway.

[–]CyberClawX 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is very much biology. This is well studied and documented.

I recall some staggering gender differences in strength that can't be changed with gym. Something like 95% of men have more strength than the average woman. That means that while there are genetic outliers, a great majority of men (many who don't engage in physical activities, are sick, weak or old) are stronger than the average woman (and by extent more than half the women).

On average, men have 10% more upper body strength than women.

Even women who dedicate their life to a sport, are usually much weaker than men who dedicate themselves to the same sport, despite similar regimens and trainings.

So the question is, can women get stronger by going to the gym or exerting themselves at work? Yes. But on average, more men will be able to do said job without relying on gym or previous workout than women. Sure some women could get there, but their base strength is on average lower, and their potential strength is much lower than the male's.

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I honestly don't know if it was available at my college way back at the turn of the millennium, but yes, it is now. I have heard that this plethora of useless degrees was partially a result of Bush's No Child Left Behind policy. Specifically, colleges received money to push them to educate and graduate more students. The problem is that a lot of people are too stupid and lazy to learn any useful subjects, so in order to keep more students without having to flunk them out and lose the money, colleges created bullshit degrees for the stupid, lazy people to earn.

This, of course, has led to the devaluation of college degrees in general, as well as the anger of students with these degrees who soon find that a degree in lesbian dance therapy is worth fuck-all in the job market. So basically, everybody got fucked by that one down the line. Yay.

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Far easier to complain about something than actually try to fix it yourself. Typical.

That's EXACTLY what I say (or at least TRY to explain) to all of the insta-kneejerk "COP-HATERS" who only watch a brief video clip of Police in Action and assess the situation "EMOTIONALLY" without any understanding of what goes into Police Training and what unpredictable scenarios they may come across at any time and why they MAY APPEAR (genuinely "Bad Cops" aside) to be "abusing their authority" to the average person who has not even the slightest knowledge of what goes into becoming an Officer of the Law. Yet, no matter how rationally and reasonably I try to appeal to them to view the situations from a Properly-Trained Officer's perspective to no avail, every single one of those loudmouths *ALL* instantly get hella quiet and skulk away into the darkness as soon as I make the recommendation to them that "THEY" should personally go to Police Academy so that they, along with all of the other embittered critics of Police, can "CLEAN-UP" the supposedly corrupt Police Force and "DO IT RIGHT!"

Moral of the story: NEVER suggest to a bloviating complainer that if they've got a problem with "The System" they should get up off of their own lazy ass and go "enter" The System so that they can work to "FIX" The System from within. -- You'll only be disappointed, and you'll only make them want to drown you in a vat of acid.

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I've all but been directly told by HR to ignore qualifications if a woman comes in for an interview.

thats so wrong

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Perhaps I missed my vibe when I first posted my comments. I only ask for clarification and get downvoted. Don’t get me wrong, I have mad respects for people going into BSN because it is not in any shape or form an easy major. It is way harder than it sounds. I have a lot of people in my circle study nursing, and I know it is not an easy major to get around that how it sounds.

The question I was trying to get clarify is whether the education system considered nursing a part of the STEM system. No way in any shape or form I am saying that anything outside of the STEM system is easy. I understand that nursing do required several STEM-related classes, but I looked up and apparently it is very controversial online. I guess I’ll ask in a more serious manner in another subreddit to get more info.

[–]leparsdon1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Nursing takes 2 years. 4 years for a BSN. The same as any other degree.

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I mean... the girl depicted in the exchange is probably what you think she is, and nobody is here to advocate the legitimacy of gender studies, but the hilarity of the exchange is actually based on a fallacy...

If she says/thinks/affirm that there are few women in STEM because of misoginy, the reason because she didn't pick STEM is to avoid the misoginy she talks about (in an already challenging field,may I add?), and in her logic women studies is a way to try and empower herself to fix the situation for other generations.

Before they come for me: YES, I know STEM are hard and she didn't take the hard path to fix the situation and picked the easy way of complaining, I'm just pointing out a fallacy in the joke (Because yeah.. you all see this is a joke... a made up conversation to please the internet gods, right?)

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Title	When complaining about problems you have doesn’t work
Author	vZayed95
Upvotes	15161
Comments	478
Date	September 5, 2019 3:34 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/d02dmj/when_complaining_about_problems_you_have_doesnt/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/when-complaining-about-problems-you-have-doesnt.1069979 https://theredarchive.com/post/1069979

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