Why Looks Don't Matter

Shitty_Freestyles · 2012-08-19T22:44:25+00:00

I like the points you make, and they all hold true... Except looks do matter. But just like everything else, it's not a big deal. Neither is kino, teasing, role playing, strong openers, etc. Someone who's terrible at one of these things, but has solid game otherwise, is going to do well.

Having good looks, which is subjective, is a helper. It doesn't make you more attractive, it makes people want to be attracted to you, if that makes any sense. They look for that vibe, and give you more leeway when your game is weak.

magicroot75 · 2012-08-20T02:10:59+00:00

I'm short. I've been rejected openly by girls for this. Not all attraction is in our control. That idea is delusional. The right mindset is to not care about those girls for whom my height is a problem. They are simply small speed bumps on the road to the women I like who will desire me back.

You don't have to be attractive to everyone, you just have to be OK with knowing this and proceed unhindered. Some girls will inevitably be attracted to you.

otisfunkmeyer · 2012-08-20T07:29:47+00:00

After reading a lot of these comments, it makes me realize that this post is way too high level for most people. I will call these people "materialists."

They are under the mistaken assumption that there is an objective reality, that there is something real "out there," and amazingly enough, they use their beliefs to bare this out.

At a core level, they are too afraid of testing their beliefs. They actually think they ARE their beliefs. And so, they are proven right, again and again.

The funniest part is they consider themselves scientific, yet remain unwilling to do experiments with different belief systems.

In short, they live in the Matrix.

Hence, the end of this post. Welcome to life outside the Matrix.

By far the best post I've read on Seddit and it explains everything, from rock stars to athletes. It's a meta-theory.

With that said, I would add that it's often easier to change one's behaviors than change one's beliefs, despite the fact that it would "seem" otherwise. YMMV.

Tl;dr Life is an energetic phenomenon, but you should probably still hit the gym and get nice clothes.

thedude831 · 2012-08-19T22:54:05+00:00

Looks don't matter if you're in one of the most famous rock bands of all time and rich. OK, I'll write this one down.

Penny_is_a_Bitch · 2012-08-20T01:08:51+00:00

The vibe. Simple as that. You are to other people what you project.

2012-08-20T10:25:04+00:00

This is an exceptional write up. Reddit is too shallow and judgemental to accept it though.

fabkebab · 2012-08-19T23:56:40+00:00

This subreddit rates all women on an HB scale (Met an HB8 yesterday) - but sure, attractiveness doesnt matter

CashewmanRx · 2012-08-20T02:39:44+00:00

I was immediately about to write this off as I do with most r/sedu posts about people just finally figuring shit out, this was great though. Well put and walks people through logic to lead them to a conclusion they wouldn't always find on their own, a bit whimsical and "belief in yourselfy" but it is true as far as I have experienced life.

Attila_TheHipster · 2012-08-19T22:26:23+00:00

A lot of people don't get the difference between looks and appearances, this should help though. Good stuff.

Ninja Edit: I just googled this

phenomite1 · 2012-08-20T03:34:15+00:00

Sorry this wavelength crap is some pseudo-psychological bullshit.

holdmykeysimgoingin · 2012-08-20T08:09:11+00:00

Great article, I was able to connect fully with everything. A great view on self-image, self-acceptance, and the almost philosophical absurdism of attractiveness. All humans know what we need to do to be attractive. We just need to go do it.

kokeen19 · 2012-08-20T00:39:17+00:00

looks don't matter. it's your "look" that matters.have a style,be well groomed,fitted clothes. spend some time actually working on your grooming and clothes whatever that may be. look fresh.

eXXaXion · 2012-08-20T00:33:58+00:00

One major flaw: what about looks that actively influence interactions in a bad way? Like a guy who is missing 5 of his front teeth? Do you think a girl would like to kiss him because his game is smooth?

Maybe yes, but I'm certain a guys like that won't be making out in the clubs much, right after meeting a girl. I guy like that will almost asuredly never get one night-stands and a guy like that will have to work that much harder.

Overall, looks don't matter if you're just looking at getting results. But the better you look the less you'll have to work for your results. So in that regard looks most certainly do matter. Especially, if the guy is just looking for fun and not for a long.term girlfriend.

youaretherevolution · 2012-08-19T23:05:41+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Wavedasher · 2012-08-20T00:46:48+00:00

look guys, it's really not that difficult.

this is something I read on the subreddit a while ago; I forgot who wrote this. but credit goes to him, not me:

to rate girls, I use a scale like this: 25% face, 25% body, 25% personality, and 25% prowess. Thus, a girl who's a 7 face, 8 body, 8 personality, and 7 prowess would be a HB 7.5 overall.

for guys, it's weighted more like this: 15-20% face, ~26-28% each for everything else.

you can disagree with me if you want: this is completely subjective.

but it's a way of reconciling the fact that your facial attractive matters, but not nearly as much as you think. instead of worrying about how you look, why not try to improve the other three components? (ie body, personality, and prowess)

Picture_me_this · 2012-08-20T01:44:20+00:00

Something I'd like to add here. If you are attractive and you base your self esteem on your hawt looks/six pack or whatever, you have to realize that you are not your body and that looks are temporary. What happens when six pack guy gets old, fat and bald, what then? Also, another thing about looks is that you're subtly comparing yourself to other guys, and that's always a loosing proposition. Please don't base your game on looks guys.

blucheez · 2012-08-20T01:45:17+00:00

So, the jist of what you're saying is, if you match your definition of what you find ideal, you'll have more confidence, which you'll project onto the world and thus become more attractive.

That means, the more confident of a person you are, the more likely you are to find a mate.

While I agree that is part of it, the flaw is here: I've been attracted to unconfident, shy girls in the past. And despite their shyness, they were physically attractive.

Yes, being confident helps

Yes, matching your ideal makes you more confident.

No, this isn't the only factor, looks still matter.

One more problem: I'm attracted mainly to Asian women, and I am Caucasian. How could I even change myself to be Asian to match my ideal? Lol.

Now, the title of your article was "Why looks don't matter." This is blatantly false, and serves as a "hook" for your diatribe. Looks still matter, but there's more involved than looks alone, which is what you pointed out. Try making your posts have less manipulative titles.

manosteel12 · 2012-08-20T08:07:12+00:00

truly great post, probably one of the most detailed and provactive that I have ever seen....however finding out what you believe is attractive and then achieving it is the hardest part....not an easy thing to accomplish by anyones standards...back to the football example...i personally have never felt like i needed to play football to be attractive...but lets say i felt like i did...and i was extremely skinny...and weak...and shy....and scared of atheletics.... then the amount of work it would take to become "attractive" in my mind would be of the extremes...and that is the hardest part for some people, knowing what to change and how in order to better yourself....as much as this community tries to help it is just something that will never be quote on quote easy...

gabriot · 2012-08-20T17:17:30+00:00

• People who are thin are attractive.

• Men with big muscles get all the girls.

A bit of a contradiction

Crislips · 2012-08-21T11:22:50+00:00

The proper term you are looking for is "confidence," not "broadcasting a wavelength of attractiveness." Women like men who are confident. The more confident you are in yourself, the better your game will be and the better your chances will be, regardless of looks. And I mean really confidence, not some pseudo-bullshit front where you act all cocky in front of people and frown at yourself in the mirror. I mean real confidence that springs from self-acceptance, loving yourself and who you are. Looks are certainly influential for initial cold attraction, so that does help game, but it isn't the only thing. Even a 500 pound guy with bad acne and doesnt shower can have confidence (but I'm betting those are all signs of giving up, not self-acceptance). The point is, don't be bummed if you're not the best looking guy. Deal with it. It happens. Every single person in the world has had something that they don't like about themselves. But that doesn't mean you should let it affect you. You are who you are, and just like a game of poker, you have to play the hand dealt to you, whether it's a royal flush or a shit hand. It's all about the confidence you project about yourself and your hand. Women can usually tell by the walk and talk of someone who is confident in themself. It's not some frequency your are broadcasting like a radio, it's a mindset that transforms the way you perform your everyday, simple actions from thinking about every step you take, to walking the way you walk and not caring who else walks that way or what they think about it.

But it has to be real. You truly have to accept yourself for the best results. And treating yourself right. Be healthy. Be active. Treat others with kindness. Be assertive, be firm, but avoid hostility as much as possible. The difference between hostility and assertiveness seems to be a fine line that many Betas cross all to often. Care about the things that you care about, and not what you think people want you to care about. Do the things that you find interesting, not what you think others would find you interesting for. Whatever you do, maintain your confidence. This is what makes people unique and interesting, not just to women, but to any person you meet.

To me, having confidence is the number one rule to seduction. I personally have very little gauge on my own attractiveness level. It used to be something that I would wonder about. But I realized it's irrelevant. I am who I am, and game should not be based around looks. Remember guys, seduction should be fun, not some hypercritical process that upsets you if you screw up. There are plenty of people out there for you to try on until you know who works for you. Just whatever you do, stay firm and confident in your beliefs and your actions.

Love yourself, love each other, and most of all do things that make you happy. If you can adopt this mindset your game will improve dramatically as well as your everyday interactions and relationships.

jethro_skull · 2012-08-21T18:38:18+00:00

I definitely think this is true. About twenty pounds ago (I was heavier than I am now) I got far more men than I do now- simply because I found myself sexier, even though I was on the heavy side of healthy. Now that I'm far thinner, I don't get nearly as many guys hitting on me- because I just don't feel as sexy!

Kinda weird how that works. Even if society tells you what's acceptable, if your belief in yourself goes against society's standard, if you feel good about yourself, people like you more.

adyboss8 · 2013-01-31T21:34:22+00:00

To that, there is a misconception that people are confident because they are attractive, BUT it's the other way around, they are attractive BECAUSE they are confident. On the other hand there are cases were looks actually help a lot, but not how you think. I met this chick one night, she was 33 and I was still 19. We hooked up until the end of the night, but the interesting thing was that she told me that I looked like one of her high school crushes, which means she anchored feelings for that guy by his looks. The fact that my looks were similar brought up those feelings which, I think, helped e a lot.

appointment_at_1_am · 2012-08-19T22:42:39+00:00

i have no tan and i am skinny. you are telling me i could score in clubs against tanned muscular guys?

DrTwitch · 2012-08-20T02:15:17+00:00

Tell it to burns victims.

mildlyaroused · 2012-08-20T07:58:45+00:00

This post is fucking monumental. Everyone interested in self-improvement should be reading this. You did an excellent job of articulating yourself here.

HelloHiHello · 2012-08-20T00:19:00+00:00

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HYisAwk · 2012-08-20T00:50:00+00:00

I'd really like to believe in that, keyword believe...

however, from a more general social point of view, I can agree with the whole projection part. Just based on how I speak/interact/posture/vibe I give off with the others, it's completely negative, but I always thought it was hidden, that to others I just looked normal, until my therapist pretty much called me out on all of it within 1 hour...

PictureTraveller · 2012-08-20T01:48:23+00:00

it's not that hard to get in shape just go on /r/keto if you need to lose fat and /r/fitness if you need to gain muscles. fucking do it. once you're in shape, even if your face is not pretty the physical aspect won't matter because you'll look manly and you'll feel awesome about yourself

nivar · 2012-08-20T02:11:04+00:00

would you be able to give step by step instruction how to find and changing the beliefs you have to fit your body or type.

how do I know which beliefs are stopping me form emitting the attractive vibe?
once I find out the beliefs that blocking, how to change or replace with new beliefs?

thanks

crystalPUA · 2012-08-20T15:01:14+00:00

Okay, so as a skinny guy myself, which role models did you use?

2012-08-22T01:28:27+00:00

Doing this right now, needs to be in the sidebar great work man!

babitoi · 2012-08-24T11:13:06+00:00

I think you have raised up quite a discussion here, need some research to expand the topic

thouliha · 2012-12-28T19:37:43+00:00

This argument is interesting, but a subjective vs. objective argument isn't really needed here. We should really talk about what women and men desire, not about what energies they project.

Broadly speaking, women desire the survival value of a man, his ability to care for her needs, and the needs of their future(possibly including a family). He needs social status, social ability, wealth, respect/admiration, etc

Men desire the reproductive value of a woman, her health, beauty, warmth, ability to procreate and care for her children and anyone else.

So health/looks are not as important for a male as a female, while wealth and social skills are much more important for a male than a female. This post is about why looks don't matter, but social ability does, for men.

GodlessSwag28 · 2013-02-08T21:19:34+00:00

tl;dr confidence is the key.

Wiskie · 2012-08-20T00:35:08+00:00

You're trying to undermine everything evolution has shown us about sexual attraction on the basis that a rich rockstar can get laid? Women want security in a mate--true--hence why wealth, popularity, power and confidence are so important, but to say the power of sexual attraction is worthless in the face of these things is naive. And women are just as superficial as men are as far as that goes.

Yes, there is some variation as to what is attractive. In fact, two very different women (or men) can be attractive. Yet, it's important to note that they are both still physically attractive. As a straight man, have you ever been attracted to a woman that looks like a straight man? Case in point.

Look at Brad Pitt. He's rich, famous and good-looking. And I think he has a much stronger pull with the general female population than our friend Tyler does.

Now, as is always the case, some women will look at two men who are close in physical attractiveness and pick the slightly "uglier" one out of preference for his personality. If you get accepted to Harvard and Stanford and Yale, are you going to base your pick solely on the rankings? No, they're all good schools. You pick the one that "fits" by that point.

Like most games or sport, seduction involves a little bit of chance. You can only change your physical attractiveness so much. And sure, you can win without it. But when you choose to ignore it, you hurt your own odds.

gameguy236 · 2012-08-20T02:35:21+00:00

thank you, just... thank you

wellBelowPAR · 2012-08-20T05:40:50+00:00

You are spot on with this. Everyone can be sexy in their own right, its just a case of whether they are willing to put in the effort to meet their "goal" to be attractive. People who goes to the gym, put up with the hard yards to achieve a athlete build, and what is the reward out of this? Self confidence and a aesthetic look. It's all about setting realistic goals to achieve their own definition of "attractiveness", then putting in a effort to workfor it. By the time the result has been achieved, the "insecurity" thought disappeares due to the hard work.

TL;DR: Set goals and work hard for them and insecurity thoughts will disappear

HelloHiHello · 2012-08-20T06:45:43+00:00

I don't jack off to wavelengths.

2012-08-20T10:02:30+00:00

I agree to a certain extent; I've written a couple of papers on the definition of beauty and the role of the mainstream media in affecting people's perceptions of it, and it really is an issue with people's own self-imposed beliefs of what exactly beautiful/attraction is.

A lot of people (unless you choose to disassociate yourself from it - something I wish everyone could do, but, alas, this is 2012 and Advertising reigns supreme. sigh, I guess that's a discussion for another day) are constantly barraged by magazines/newspapers/tv adverts/radio adverts/tv shows/musicians/film stars all having what the mainstream media consider to be a 'perfect body'.

"Hey! You can get ripped and have perfect abs in 6 weeks and get any girl you want if you just buy this magazine and follow these simple steps!" This leads to the frame of mind, "Hey, maybe I need a 6 pack for girls to find me attractive?" - pretty much what you're saying, I pretty much agree.

However, dude let's get realistic here - you are not going to be attractive to anyone (other than, fuck, what like 0.5% of the population?) if you're obese, stink, are unhealthy and have terrible skin.

Not because you aren't 'broadcasting an attractive signal', but because of what we are as humans. If you go back, I mean way back, or even look at the animal kingdom for an example (unless of course you believe in the ancient-astronaut theory of how we came to be, in which case this is irrelevant and I have nothing for you).

Animals mate with the strongest male, whereas males look to reproduce with as many fucking females as possible - my gene is best, you want it, trust me.

We are intelligent creatures, but creatures nonetheless. The definition of 'strongest' may not necessarily be the guy with the thickest mane, the biggest balls and a barrel chest, but maybe just a guy who has got it going on - he's confident and sure in himself, is driven, passionate etc etc etc

Basically, what I'm saying is, throw your perceptions of beauty out of the window - they are all fabricated machinations of mainstream media. Brad Pitt is good looking BECAUSE YOU'RE TOLD HE'S GOOD LOOKING, likewise with girls - size 6, big tits, small waist, nice face - it's all just what you're told, from an early age (just look at Disney ffs).

But you also need to take into account the fact that a guy that looks as if he's about to die from being seriously unhealthy or just offensive to be around is not going to be attractive until he gets himself together.

tl:dr beauty is a perception instilled by mainstream media, but hey man being healthy and clean doesn't hurt either

kohbo · 2012-08-20T16:10:53+00:00

Looks don't matter, unless you're short.

VadersGonnaVade · 2012-08-21T04:22:15+00:00

Looks matter in that if you have good looks and appearance, you wouldn't need to bother with any of this creepy PUA bullshit.

2012-08-19T22:46:27+00:00

be attractive
don't be unattractive

MARSpu · 2012-08-20T04:35:56+00:00

Why looks do matter: evolution.

rmbarnes · 2012-08-20T18:04:57+00:00

Looks and game aren't mutually exclusive, develop both.

ChristmasDeviant · 2012-08-20T02:20:27+00:00

Looks matter a whole lot, particularly for first impressions.

For a huge number of people, looks are the reason to start a conversation or make an effort to get to know someone.

That said, for most people I've talked with, confidence is far more important in the long run - a person who is comfortable with themselves can be way more attractive than someone who would be objectively hotter if all you cared about was appearance.

But that first impression is huge. If your first interaction with me is seeing me across a crowded room, carrying myself with confidence isn't going to help me much when I haven't had a shave, a shower, or fresh clothes in a week.

HelloHiHello · 2012-08-20T02:47:29+00:00

Ever notice people are more willing to call an ugly person with confidence a narcissist?

uberafc · 2012-08-20T03:02:01+00:00

great post!!! I think its going to spark a lot of debate but its a great post. Keep them coming man. I said it before but your posts are freaking amazing. Regardless of what others think, you are putting out some great content on here.

flyersfan314 · 2012-08-20T03:43:38+00:00

Would a tl;dr of this be, "confidence in who you are is everything."?

nosleepatall · 2012-08-20T04:14:22+00:00

I'd agree that it plays an important role to believe yourself to be attractive to be perceived as attractive. But you are going overboard with that 500 pound, acne-ridden, unwashed guy. I feel that it encourages guys to not working at themselves at all and focus on you just have gotta belieeeve. And that would be plain wrong. Do both.

Start believing you're attractive, but also start to be the best you possibly can. Life may have dealt you some bad cards, but there are a lot of points very easy to improve. For example, that showering thing, or some basing grooming.

And never forget that some women may get that "attractive" signal and respond, but no guy will ever be attractive to all the girls. Perhaps the one you'd want the most is underwhelmed. It happens. That's where outcome independence comes into play. It sucks if a girl isn't into you, but there are a lot of them, and others may be so impressed that words fail them.

2012-08-20T05:48:49+00:00

Worthwhile read. I don't totally agree, because your definition of attractiveness also affects how you categorize others and theirs affect how they categorize you. If anyone finds your overweight, acne-ridden, smelly guy physically attractive, then they are part of a tiny minority.

I do see the truth to some of what you're saying though. I've noticed that I haven't changed as much as my definition of attractiveness has changed. The guys I saw getting girls in high school dressed like douchebags, and they became my definition of attractiveness for awhile. Now I realize that my sharp, clean cut, sleek style is much more attractive and a lot of girls like that level of refinement.

targetLocked · 2012-08-20T06:33:02+00:00

Your point that attractiveness is the cognitive alignment of what you are and what you think is attractive is... correct and also a restatement of what this subreddit already says a lot. That said, I think you take it too far with saying things like:

“Does this mean I can be 500 pounds, have terrible acne, never shower and still be attractive?”

Yes.

But only if you believe it.

I get that you're taking your thesis to an extreme to perhaps solidify your point, but I think we should always be seeking to improve ourselves rather than restructure our entire mental paradigm to accept the worst of ourselves. 500 lbs isn't healthy, attractiveness aside. Acne is damaging to the skin and fully treatable. Daily hygiene is necessary even for common courtesy at school/in the workplace.

The very first PUA literature I ever read talks about how you can be a short, stocky, balding middle-aged man and still get laid (and let's forget for a moment the marketing angle there), but it also went on to talk about how easily you can change limiting factors like fashion sense, hygiene, etc. So while focusing on confidence and inner game is very important, we shouldn't ignore those things that are in our power to improve.

choc_is_back · 2012-08-20T09:45:05+00:00

lol, way to use a sensational headline only to contradict it entirely trough you post. Looks don't matter, except you should decide on which look you want and than obtain it?

thefreedude · 2012-08-20T10:37:09+00:00

You are wise as you are attractive.

colucci · 2012-08-20T12:42:53+00:00

Looks do matter. I was a fucking twig in my teens, and I got absolutely no attention from anyone, male or female. Started going to the gym, now I'd say I look better than the average male, and I have girls approach me rather than me approaching them. All the girlfriends I've had, I've been approached by them first.

Not boasting or anything, just sharing my experience - looks do matter a lot. It's a nice little self-esteem boost for less fortunate guys to think that looks don't matter but it's simply not true.

Having said that, an average look and a lot of confidence will get you much further than an amazing look and an average amount of confidence.

HelloHiHello · 2012-08-20T13:08:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

readonlyuser · 2012-08-20T17:21:52+00:00

Here's someone very reputable disagreeing with you.

My own 2 cents? Attraction is a recognition of value. Congruence has value, but it's only a slice of the pie. Looks are absolutely a part of that pie. You believe that congruence is the only issue in play because it's all that you've been focusing on.

The fact is the 500 pound man you described will simply not be able to get many girls because it conflicts with those girls' core values and desires, i.e. a dealbreaker. The closer you are to Meatloaf's social value, charisma, status and talent, the more OK it is to look like him, but nobody in this subreddit is Meatloaf.

TL;DR I'm Meatloaf AMA.

Blue_Link · 2012-08-20T02:59:46+00:00

This is the saddest shit have ever read. What ever makes you sleep at night. Looks matter ALOT

TurnTheShip · 2012-08-20T03:38:16+00:00

*much

starcraft_al · 2012-08-20T06:23:40+00:00

I see two flaws with that idea, first, your personal idea of attractive may not be others idea of attractive, aka u may feel sexy and confident but others may not see u as such. Second, looks do matter, ridiculously photojenic guy is proof of this, he is physically attractive and women throw themselves legs first at him

Title	Why Looks Don't Matter
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	319
Comments	215
Date	August 19, 2012 9:39 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/yhna6/why_looks_dont_matter/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/why-looks-dont-matter.1337555 https://theredarchive.com/post/1337555

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