Saw this on facebook today

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Hamster is taken. Find your own damn safe word.

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[–]Mylon 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This isn't the problem. Women will mean "I shouldn't" and the man understands exactly what the woman meant, but because she said "no" the man is now a rapist. It's communication working just fine but stupid technicalities being exploited. The truth of the matter is that no does not mean no.

A woman should actively resist a rape attempt unless there's a knife at her back or she's been unwillingly drugged. If she gets playful and flirty and then decided she doesn't want to have sex and the first no doesn't get the man off of her then she should slap him at the least to make it clear to both parties. If she's not doing this then she probably wanted it anyway.

Of course, there are exceptions like being threatened with violence for resisting, but this isn't the case in most of these situations. People think, "She said no so it's rape" and it sounds great, but this demonstrates a lack of understanding that words make up a small amount of communication especially when getting really intimate.

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[–]Mylon 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps it seems rash, but you need to realize, I think things need to escalate quite a bit before the woman can even hope to throw down a charge as serious as rape.

Rape accusations need to pass a few tests to hold up in court. Questions like, "If you did not want it, does he have any injuries from your attempts to fend him off?" "Did you get injured by his attempt to force himself on you?" "Did he use a weapon to force your compliance?"

Rape should not be, "I slept with him but later regretted it." Women saying no in bed is like saying, "I will sleep with you but if I later regret this decision I have a tool to use against you." Thus, a woman needs to do more than merely say no which is very misleading without the context. Of course, if the woman says no, means it, and the guy backs off, then no physical altercation is required. But that's not the case that would end up in court, obscene perjury excepted.

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[–]fourpac5 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, we're talking about an anti-rape program that aims to take the ambiguity out of rape cases. That's the whole point of the "no means no" mantra. However, girlwriteswhat originally argued that there is no ambiguity in her definition of "no," even though her wording is such that she includes the actual word "no" in her sexual banter in situations in which she is consenting to sexual activities. That leaves a door wide open to interpretation of the word "no." The "no means no" campaign is an attempt to close that door. My personal opinion is sacrificing a little verbal foreplay is a small price to pay for a unified and unambiguous set of rules to which we all abide. If the word "no" is ever uttered during attempts at sexual activity, the evening ends right there... like when a guy refers to his penis as a "wee-wee" or "jimmy-jamma."

[–]WhipIash-1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]fourpac2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't realize that I was being given sole credit for the "no means no" campaign. If that's the case, I've been severely undercompensated for my consulting work. Remember, though, that this is not a legislative proposal, per se. Nobody's talking about a "no means no" law. We are talking about a set of principles that people adopt on their own in order to avoid rape and being falsely accused of rape.

People are free to communicate however they like. If we collectively agree that sexy talk is a cherished concept that we value above stopping even one rape or one wrongly accused non-rapist from going to jail, then so be it. However, if you think asking, "Were you clear," will be a legally substantial argument, then you are not very familiar with our judicial system. This is the reason we have Miranda rights. If they aren't read, there is sufficient ambiguity in the proceedings to let a guilty man go free. If a girl says "no" in any form, it is not a good idea for a guy to keep pushing the action, regardless of her intentions. If he does, he opens himself up to the mercy of the judicial system if it turns out that a) he misinterpreted her "no" or b) she, for whatever reason, decides to falsely accuse him of rape. Keep in mind, there are situations where women say "no" and mean "no" but do not struggle thereafter because of fear. Fear of physical abuse, fear of rejection, fear of social stigma.

Rape is a serious problem that we need to address, as a people, by changing our attitudes. A lot of people still make the argument that girls are "asking for it" by the way they dress. That's a separate concept that is not related the definition of "no," but it illustrates how much our concepts of rape vary from person to person or culture to culture. "No means no" is a good rule of thumb for everyone to follow. If we don't follow it, we have to accept the consequences of ambiguity. Dude.

[–]WhipIash0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's ridiculous, if she isn't more persistent than saying no, well then it's her fault. (Yes, by the mercy of god, I actually said it was the rape victim's fault!)

I mean, if you go along with it, but change you're mind and all you do is say no, and don't follow that up, well that's as good as not doing anything. You have to (a) don't kiss, make out, flirt or do similar things to seriously lead him on at all or (b) after changing your mind after doing aformentioned things, put in a bit more effort than saying, no I don't want to. I mean, after all that overwhelming evidence, how is he supposed to know that you're simple "no" was serious and not playful? Tone of voice goes a long way, but the courts don't seem to care about that. Just get up and leave. And if you don't do that, then you weren't raped! (If you tried leaving and telling him in a harsh tone of voice you weren't up for it any more, yet he physically held you down and stopped you, then it's obviously rape.)

[–]fourpac4 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Wordshark -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If a woman wants you on that list, you're going on it, unless you happened to have been on national TV having dinner at the White House when she claims you were raping her.

But I oppose your position for other reasons. If you want to try to change how people are behaving by changing the systemic conditions that incentivize shitty behavior, sure, I'll get behind that. But the MRM telling women how they should act rubs me wrong in exactly the same way as the feminist movement constantly dictating how men should behave. Social engineering is arrogant and dangerous, and to me there's no more distasteful flavor than dictating how people should date and fuck. If you want to change laws and policy in ways that influence those behaviors, yeah, that's your right as a citizen, but I won't stand for feminists telling me how I should go about courting and fucking, and I'm not going to get being you doing the same thing.

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[+]DejaBoo -7 points-6 points-5 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

girlwriteswhat is just saying what happens all the time in our society when one party (regardless if it's sex) needs/wants/allows convincing to get them to do an activity.

"no, I can't go to the movies."

"ahhh, come on. You can focus on homework later. I'll help you."

Goes to movies.

THAT's a Crime!!!!

Nope it isn't and its a part of communication ALL the FN time.

All forms of communication are a form of influencing (e.g., coercion, manipulation, etc.) if you think about it (just like I'm trying right now to influence you and other readers).

It's just with sex we need even more clearer communication and less societal BS about the topic -- good luck with that! Until our society quits blaming one sex or the other why would we collaborate when it comes to healthy sexual communication?

Yep, I'm blaming feminism here not equally taking care of our men here! They don't get it's a systemic issue -- all gender roles are -- where everyone including MOM is responsible.

TL;DR It's part of our culture and attacking only one sex does not change our culture.

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It's reality that a lot of women resist a little before wanting to go ahead.

This is pretty common but I can't help but see it as a cheap way for women to free themselves from any kind of guilt or responsibility resulting from intercourse though by passing it on to the man. It's like a woman saying "I don't want people to think I'm a slut, so if I just pretend like I don't want it a little than I can't be blamed for it. He's the one that pushed for it and I was just an innocent woman".

It's a subtle way for a lot of women to get around their own insecurities and exploit this social perception of female vulnerability and innocence so that if anything backfires, or they end up regretting or feeling guilty about it later on, they can still claim to be the victim, that they weren't in control or that it's not their fault it happened in the first place; which is kind of a shitty thing to do to men(especially when those fears stem from a personal disdain towards male sexuality or from being viewed as someone that does not conform to this social disdain for male sexuality). Men shouldn't be made to feel guilty about their sexuality when the intent is consensual; nor should they be forced to feel, as the one initiating and being assertive, like aggressors and opportunists(both negative feelings). Men also shouldn't be expected to take on the onus of sex alone(whatever form of guilt, risk or social repercussions both my face).

In a perfect world where no women would play these types of games, where all women would take pride in their sexual interest for men or promiscuity, where all women could take on an assertive or aggressive role(rather than just mandating this dominating role from men or automatically assuming a submissive role themselves), and where all women want to take on that responsibility despite any fears and insecurities(rather than just passing it on to men), then "no" would always mean "no". As long as this type of escapism and gender expectation still exists, there will always be cases where "no" doesn't mean "no" at all. The success of series like "twilight" and "50 shades of grey", where male protagonists are romanticized and glorified by women for literally forcing themselves onto women, are a perfect example.

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[–]FreddyDeus -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How old are you and how diverse are your sexual experiences?

Here's how. You've been seeing a girl for a few weeks. She's made it clear that she doesn't leap into bed with every guy she dates. But she doesn't mind getting into bed with you. Just not for 'sex'.

But that's okay. It's easy to work out the boundaries she set, surely. And as a decent guy, you respect them.

But after a few enjoyable dates, there you are, in bed together, but not having sex, but doing a bit of the old kissing and cuddling and talking, then next minute you know, she's slipping down the bed putting your cock in her mouth.

Now actually, this doesn't have to take weeks to happen, it can be several hours after her "no".

So, when a girl says she is NOT going to have sex with you, but a few hours later is putting your dick in her mouth, what does she mean?

[–]DejaBoo -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Dear FreddyDeus,

It means I don't want to be perceived as slut in my own mind so I have to make games out of sex to get comfortable with my sexual urges till I decide we have sex.

Later, if I regret it, I can blame you and still save my emotional need not to feel like a slut.

And, later when my friends keep pressing me about you, "hey, what happened with FreddyDeus?" I get even more nervous with the repeated questions and how I don't want my best friends to think I'm a slut! All of this pressure by them and their faces get more concerned as I begin to become more uncomfortable about telling them about what happened. I can't help it anymore and I break down crying because I see how much my girlfriends care about me.

starts sobbing

I then try to maintain my rationality of not being a slut without accusing you of rape, FreddyDeus, but eventually the whole thing is now so confusing with me crying and my best friends holding me. I feel so overwhelmed by my girlfriends' concern over me and how much shame my parents made me feel about being a slut. All this crap is just pooring out of me and I can't get it to stop. I'm sorry my friends view you are as a Rapist. I never meant for it to happen this way.

Don't worry FreddyDeus, most likely you will just become a statistic of how Rape is not reported in the minds of her friends to justify their hatred towards you and all men. They will go onto "women's studies" and maybe even get graduate degrees in psychology and become therapists and Feminists who campaign to have all FreddyDeus persecuted because they know how bad "rape actually is" in our society because they have seen the actual results from your actions, FreddyDeus. They may seem hateful to you, but really they are just doing it out of love of me and all the other people like me who have had a rough life.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

My Unsent Letter,

Noremorse

Source: Retired Therapist who has, yep, seen this all come out in session with big huge crying crocodile tears.

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No means maybe all the time in society. It is only in sex we need to clarify, but "no" doesn't automatically make sexual intercourse rape either. It's all about context and how important sexual communication is (which is what you are getting at).

Example:

"no, I can't go to the movies."

"ahhh, come on. You can focus on homework later. I'll help you."

"ahhhhg, alright. Let me get ready."

If we replaced the context with sex people would be screaming "RAPE!" (i.e., coercion) when in reality there is nothing here that says the event wasn't consensual.

This, btw, is also how rape statistics are commonly hyper inflated because coercion and alcohol/drugs are automatically considered rape. This is false and such studies have reported their participants, who they have labeled as raped, have disagreed at an alarming rate of up to 75 percent with many of them continuing to have sexual relations with now "alleged" rapist.

This is also why such studies no longer report participant's verifying their methods to measure rape. They rationalize that women are also in denial about what rapes is because of being socialized by the patriarchy. Odd how academic feminists want to empower women but don't trust their own personal judgement what rape is???

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with "date rape," I'm just pointing out how there is so much Cultural Baggage in how we communicate that we need to address.

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Well, then I must be thick because I'm really not sure what you are saying.

If we drum it back to the original point, according to you, sometimes "no" means "maybe" in a sexual context. This is because "no" sometimes means "maybe" in a non-sexual context. Your proof for this is because you can be persuaded into doing things.

Sorry if that sounds patronising, I'm just trying to make sure we're both clear.

My points here are threefold.

1) A non-sexual context is very different to a sexual context, and consent should be taken far more seriously in a sexual context, for several reasons, not least because we should have total respect for someone's bodily autonomy, and not least because of the serious physical and mental consequences of being raped.

2) The fact that certain non-sexual things which can be as traumatising or compromise rights in the same way as sex are legal does not mean it should be acceptable to persuade people into sex.

3) If you say "no" and are then persuaded into saying "yes", that does not mean your initial "no" was a maybe. Even if we consider it morally acceptable to persuade people into having sex, "no" does not become "maybe".

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What are these "no means no" and "men can stop rape" campaigns supposed to accomplish other than to outright attack men? I learned what no means when I was two.

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Most people use lifetime prevalence statistics. In my opinion, these aren't really great statistics from the view of this kind of thing. People often redefine events in accordance to social constructs, and it's much more likely that a male would not be believed if he said he was raped.

The most extreme disparity shown in statistics that some feminists quote count rape as a penetrative act only, rather than an act of envelopment. Which means that a woman would have to anally penetrate a man with a dildo in order for it to count. That's why, from this same survey, the numbers shown are 1 in 5 women as opposed to 1 in 71 men in a lifetime prevalence of rape (being penetrated).

But in the statistics that are least likely to be influenced by false redefinition of events (12-month prevalence), and that take into account a woman who forced a man to penetrate him (made to penetrate), it actually shows a lot more men are raped than people would like to believe.

So, yes, I believe men are almost as likely or as likely rape victims as women. We just pay a ridiculously little amount of heed to their problems.

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How about this: The issue of male stigma in rape cases is only an issue because of the overwhelming amount of rape cases. Feminism is a movement borne of real inequality, men's rights is a much smaller, less culturally relevant backlash to the effect that feminist doctrine has had on society over the last 100 years.

Just in the small community example of reddit, the feminist boards far outweigh mensrights in the amount of actual constructive discussion that takes place instead of the mass hate-parades that every post in this subreddit inevitably turns into, thus I'm inclined to think most of the men making these hateful posts are simply "butthurt" also known as becoming painfully aware of one's privilege and as a result responding with violent debate and denial of said privilege.

That didn't make your head hurt too much did it? by the way it's case in point, and non-sequitor can mean more than just family guy jokes.

[–]Doylemetheus 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

The issue of male stigma in rape cases is only an issue because of the overwhelming amount of rape cases.

Not really a reason to not deal with the stigma though, is it?

Feminism is a movement borne of real inequality, men's rights is a much smaller, less culturally relevant backlash to the effect that feminist doctrine has had on society over the last 100 years.

I don't really see your point. I mean, you seem to be saying that men don't face any real inequality.. but surely any inequality is real inequality?

There are nearly 39,000 people subscribed to this subreddit, most posts get less than 100 comments on them (on average). Assuming that every comment is posted by a different person (which we know is not true), the comment section represents the views of less than 1% of the subscribed users. The point being that while there may be some 'butthurt' comments, to judge the entire movement based on them would be akin to judging the entire feminist movement based on the actions of only the extreme feminists.

Edit: Random words that didn't need to be there.

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The problem? That IS feminism. There is ONLY legislative preference or 'priviledge' for women. From family court to college sports, men get shafted in favor of any benefit to women. The area feminists complain about is the conscience of society. They feel as though they are entitled to legislate themselves to privilege because they are the only ones that see this mysterious evil 'prejudice' behind everyone, especially men. Its fairytale land that has real consequences.

Just don't expect anyone to feel anything positive about feminism unless it stands up and rejects favoritism, laws, and PC strong-arming in order to get women to succeed. See I think women are more than capable to succeed without that bullshit. What I think is sad is that many feminists and women must not have that confidence and will continue to create the illusion that they are lesser because they can't hack it without hacking down men. You live a sad existence.

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[–]Amunium -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

my statement of what is most definitely fact

Oh, your statements are fact, are they? I'm sorry, now I'm convinced. The bold text really made your point there. No argument needed now.

do you really want to start comparing statistics?

For what? How do you measure e.g. "cultural relevance" by statistics? But yeah, sure, show me statistics.

You've done a neat little job of proving that rape isn't gender specific

Uh... what? I've never said anything to you before.

I was simply stating the amount of female cases is much higher in every part of the world.

That is simply patently, blatantly false. You are downright lying now, without any attempt to hide it. You made many more claims than rape victims being mostly women, which I won't disagree with, and most of your claims were unsupported and yes, wrong.

[+]musov 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

You seem to think this entire argument is over my being able to prove myself as a legitimate source of information, as if these inherent facts aren't available literally everywhere. You're fine with dissecting informality instead of actually pursuing knowledge and it's because you know these facts are out there...

Since only a small percentage of acts of sexual violence are brought to the attention of the authorities, it is impossible to compile accurate statistics. There are nevertheless statistical estimates published by some official bodies. The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1997) estimated that 91% of United States rape victims were female and 9% were male, with 99% of the offenders being male and 1% of the offenders being female.[1] Several studies argue that male-male and female-female prison rape are quite common and may be the least reported form of rape.[2][3][4]

Was that "facty" enough for you? Did it cite enough sources? It's from wikipedia, there's a whole article on rape by gender but as you start to tell me how unreliable wikipedia can be why don't you just stop and ask some of the women in your life about it? This problem is literally important to every woman you've ever known versus how many guys? It's safe to say there's a measurable gap in "cultural relevance."

[–]Amunium -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

You seem to think this entire argument is over my being able to prove myself as a legitimate source of information

No, I think this conversation is about you complaining about having your claims denied without evidence, when you made them without evidence, meaning simple denial is fine. If you want a serious, sourced discussion, you need to start providing evidence for your claims before you can expect them to be properly refuted. That's the entirety of my point, really.

as if these inherent facts aren't available literally everywhere

Sure, everywhere. We just have to look for them, right? Because you certainly can't be bothered to, when making a claim.

This is just you repeating again that you are right, period.

Was that "facty" enough for you?

Sure, you managed to provide actual support for your claim. I'm impressed. If you can just keep this up, you might actually have real debates with people. Good on you.

Just too bad you provided evidence for the one claim nobody disputed, and which I, in the very post you are replying to, said I didn't disagree with. Seriously, no one in this thread of comments has said that women aren't raped the most. No one. Why are you so angrily defending something that isn't being questioned?

I'm forced to conclude that either you just want to be butthurt and put words in other people's mouths to accomplish that, or you are simply stupid.

This problem is literally important to every woman you've ever known versus how many guys?

Actually, rape is an important issue to everyone I've ever met, but that's beside the point. Being raped yourself isn't the only related issue here. There's false rape allegations, which almost solely happen to men, as well as other problems, such as a societal view of all men as potential rapists.

You want to talk about only the issues of a victim of vaginal rape? Fine. Go somewhere else and do it. That's not what's being discussed here.

[–]musov0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

OK, so you're still playing the character assasination game. I hope you someday are able to look at society wholly instead of just focusing on how I've conducted my argument in a non-diplomatic way. If you didn't notice I don't give a shit about whether you believe me, mostly because you continue to try dance around what you believe yourself by avoiding your own concrete claims:

I was simply stating that the amount of female rape cases is way higher in every part of the world (You): "That is wholly and blatantly untrue!" insert demands for concrete evidence, more character assasination, cut to your next response: "Well I never stated that female rape is not way more prominent, that's obvious, you're still wrong though and I'm right."

This argument isn't about me at all and while you've clearly taken a grade nine class in identifying bias you're just grasping at things that really don't affect the actual facts, since you don't seem to have your own opinion. You came into this argument just to attack my civility and for that you're no better than me, so get your shit together before you talk to me again because you're running around in circles and it's like debating a five year old.

[–]Amunium0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually I've explained to you twice already my reason for replying to you, but I can repeat it again if I must. Please read this time:

I replied to tell you that it makes no sense to demand supporting evidence when denying your claims, when you presented no evidence for the claims in the first place.

That's it. Really.

I'm not sure if you still think I'm someone else, after I already pointed out once that I never wrote to you before 3 posts ago, but I have never claimed that women do not get raped more than men, and it would be nice if you would stop repeating that lie.

you're just grasping at things that really don't affect the actual facts

This makes absolutely no sense, but you may want to look in a mirror, since you've been dancing around a million topics in your replies to me, when all I've been saying is what I described in the beginning of this post. Everything you're saying here is completely irrelevant to the facts.

since you don't seem to have your own opinion

About what? I have plenty of opinions, but the point I'm discussing with you is not something you can have an opinion on, so which opinion would you have me say?

because you're running around in circles

Yes, I'm still trying to explain to you my original point, which you keep ignoring. If you would read what you are replying to, I wouldn't have to "run around in circles" - I could move on to something more interesting.

Just read what it says. It isn't that hard.

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[–]Amunium2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, I'm still here. I'm still having to tell you that you've misread, or not read at all, everything I've said, and that nothing you're saying has any relevance to anything I've said.

There's a simple solution to that: Read. What. It. Says.

it was definitely you that denied women get raped more than men

How about citing where I said that or linking to the post? That should settle this in no time flat, and much better than you just repeating your lies over and over and over.

If you think you just did cite it, allow me to explain to you for the 5th time or so, that I was not denying that females get raped more, I was denying that that was your only point, because that was what you claimed. You said "I was simply stating", and you weren't. You were stating many more things than that. That was what was false. Please learn to read.

[–]musov0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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And now you're lying again. I've been very, very direct from the start, and through constant repetition whenever you didn't understand it, that my only original point was, that if you won't accept rejection of your claims without evidence, you will need to provide evidence for those claims in the first place.

That is it. I've said this again and again. You are dancing around it and bringing up a million points that have nothing to do with anything.

My posts are not poorly structured, and while I admit my original statement "that is false" could be perceived as directed toward something else, namely women being raped more, my at least 5 elaborations of it would have been more than enough to make a slow 2-year-old understand.

If you want an answer to anything, ask. If you want my opinion on something, ask. If not, my entire point was summed up in my very first post: That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. That is a grand total of 12 words you need to read and comprehend, and we can be done here.

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Title	Saw this on facebook today
Author	lancerevo37
Upvotes	871
Comments	312
Date	July 3, 2012 8:08 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/vzuit/saw_this_on_facebook_today/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/saw-this-on-facebook-today.1018639 https://theredarchive.com/post/1018639

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