What are some thoughts on this statement?

Independent_Rest_522 · 2021-07-26T22:52:52+00:00

https://thefatherlessgeneration.wordpress.com/statistics/

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2021-07-26T23:11:31+00:00

By calling those qualities "feminine", she's reinforcing the idea that only women do those things.

ImportantResults · 2021-07-26T22:22:01+00:00

why does it matter whether a child has a certain gendered role model?

and then

i think young men need more feminine energy in their upbringing

It's just usual “women are better” mentality, but they won't say it that way, they are in negation that they believe women are better, they need to rationalize it any other way.

CourageousGoblin · 2021-07-26T22:48:23+00:00

Children need a diverse range of role models. They should be exposed to positive individuals in general, whether they be more "masculine" or "feminine" as Western society would have it. That being said, children receive plenty of care from women early in life as most early childhood educators and similar are disproportionately female.

E: spelling

Anarcho_Dog · 2021-07-26T23:29:20+00:00

All that needs to be said is change it to "my daughter doesn't need a 'mother figure'" and subsequently change out feminine and masculine words, basically the exact same post but with opposite genders and watch the hate flow in like a damn tsunami

TintelFroot · 2021-07-26T22:23:26+00:00

Them claiming all these positive qualities are “feminine” shows how deeply bigoted they are.

boundarychimps · 2021-07-27T00:31:22+00:00

so, no, my son does not have a father - he has a donor

Well, whoever wrote this sounds like an absolutely lovely person who will teach their children to be well-adjusted adults who judge others by their character and treat everyone with respect regardless of outside characteristics.

Consistent-Scientist · 2021-07-26T23:37:36+00:00

I totally agree with the last sentence. She's basically trying to justify lesbian couples as capable parents. I think they absolutely are. I think a good argument can be made that the couple needs to cover the role of the traditional father figure (i.e., encourage rough-and-tumble play, discipline, risk-taking, etc.) I think lesbian couples absolutely can do that, either by tag-team or the more "masc" or "butch" one specializing in that role.

However, I disagree when she equates feminine energy with "open dialogue, free-flowing emotions, compassion + heart." I think the whole "archetypal masculine and feminine energies" idea is reductive and essentializing. Yes, I agree that there are mean differences between male and female populations on these traits (Agreeableness) and interests. But there are so many men who are more emotional and compassionate than the average female and there are so many females who are more assertive and tough-minded than the average man that the archetypes totally lose their utility. Who wants to think in categories that are wrong like 40% of the time?

I'll even go further and agree with the spirit of what she said - that men need more compassionate and emotionally sensitive parenting. She's just wrong that it's feminine. That can come from two gay dads or a cishet male or a transman or male-bodied enby.

Neveah_Hope_Dreams · 2021-07-27T02:59:14+00:00

This is the most hypocritical and most stupidest thing I've ever seen.

"Who's the boy's male role model" "Why should that matter what kind of role model he has? That's so insulting."

"Boys should be having female role models though" *cue the curb your enthusiasm music*

She can get stuffed.

Jazzlike-Parsley-566 · 2021-07-27T06:58:18+00:00

"Women should not be assumed as primary care givers!"

"Why are fathers even necessary?!"

"I do not think about what I say for more than a second"

Complex_Experience83 · 2021-07-27T00:00:03+00:00

I whole heartedly disagree. Men need their fathers to teach them what women cannot. Part of the problems in our society today are a result of kids and boys especially not having their fathers. This could be due to incarceration, abandonment, a heavy work load, a long commute to work. The father doesn't have to be physically gone to be emotionally unavailable. Robert Bly, author of Iron John, talks in great detail the importance of fathers to their sons. There are many things a mother can teach their sons but still there are simply things that women cannot teach boys who will become men. Also we have NEVER seen this in our society before, at least not for very long. We have NO IDEA the social implications of raising little people this way. We do already see the impact of fatherless families though... and it doesn't look great.

And to address this part

Frankly, I think young men need more feminine energy in their upbringing. Open dialogue, free flowing emotions, compassion + heart

These are not exclusive to being a women. They may have been forgotten by many men, but these qualities can be found in men and the opposite found in women. Because after all we have the divine unity of masculine and feminine within ourselves and we must awaken to it.

matrixislife · 2021-07-26T23:04:33+00:00

Simply ignorant and biased.
Ignorant because she seems to be unaware of the need for male role models, not purely female ones, in boys lives.
Biased because she has a female partner and doesn't want to think that might not be perfect for her son.
Unfortunately, people only find out they were wrong about this sort of thing once the boy hits teen years and he really starts to play up. Usually by that time it's too late to correct the course quickly, and he ends up in trouble that affects the rest of his life.

nebthefool · 2021-07-26T23:09:02+00:00

Children should have diverse role models. Having one male and one female role model is important because it helps to cement developing healthy relationships/ friendships with both. It's also important for children to have adults similar to them as role models.

A child doesn't need these things in the same way they don't need comprehensive sex ed. But it comes in damn useful because otherwise they end up muddling through making it up as they go along, possibly hurting others and themselves in the process.

dr_pepper02 · 2021-07-26T21:53:36+00:00

Feminists are often fond of saying men and fathers are unnecessary and obsolete but there are some perspectives that men can given their sons and daughters too that women just don’t have, because men and women don’t experience the world in the same ways.

They speak of toxic masculinity yet fail to see that it comes from males who lack the understanding and discipline to control their emotions and respond to situations emotionally rather than logically.

AskingToFeminists · 2021-07-27T06:46:49+00:00

Feminism, the ideology repeating in loop, everywhere they can, that people need representation, that more representation is essential for kids to build themselves, but then turn around to argue that it's absolutely useless for kids to have a role model of both genders where they build themselves the most : at home.

Once again, if feminists didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards at all.

aerial_coitus · 2021-07-26T21:59:24+00:00

i have popcorn and a comfortable chair.

the end cannot come soon enough.

Juhnthedevil · 2021-07-26T23:12:53+00:00

The beginning made a good statement (Is gender that relevant for model? Whether boys or girls) But he is contradicting himself by saying that men need women models... Ah yes the famous female stereotypes originated from patriarchy reused by the same "feminist" (not all, there is differents movements and views in feminism) people claiming to fight against it.

Skinnyguy202 · 2021-07-27T01:01:24+00:00

Boys do need male role models in their lives, they do need masculine energy around them whether it's from a male teacher, coach, father, uncle, brother, cousin, etc. there should be no doubting that. Although. I THINK I can see why she said that. She probably said that because when she and her girlfriend are told he (their son from what I've read) needs a male role model (a father) not two feminine mothers (not all women are feminine) so she or they both took offense to it because he doesn't have a father he has two mothers and she feels as if she were being attacked? I think?

I would compare it to how people say, "a child needs a masculine father that brings home the bacon and a feminine mother who's a housewife (and they both married) Not two dads or two moms or one mom or one dad." That's my guess on why she said that.

Do I agree with it? Partially. I'd say yes because I feel like two moms and two dads would be great at being parents (remember it's not the sex of the parents, it's the quality of the parenting) and no because boys really do need masculine energy/masculine men as their role models. They can have women they can look up to too, like black widow or a famous youtuber like Sssniperwolf but I think a coach or uncle or any other male figure would be great for boys too

Edit: Okay, so I see I said "fathers for role models when any male can be a male role model. Correction on that, sorry.

quesadilla_dinosaur · 2021-07-27T03:29:00+00:00

I find the statement that they made problematic but I think you can raise well adjusted children in same sex homes.

The assumption that boys need more “feminine” energy rubs me the wrong way because it suggests that boys are somehow born with more “masculine” energy that needs to be civilized/tamed/neutered by “femininity” which is just a more self-righteous take on the misandrist/misogynistic “woman tames man” trope.

YesAmAThrowaway · 2021-07-27T05:36:39+00:00

It's completely unscientific. Actually, it goes right against scientifically evident facts about child psychology.

This person sees men as defective women and thinks every problem is solved by erasing masculinity from male children.

ByronsLastStand · 2021-07-27T06:05:08+00:00

"No gendered models"

"More feminine energy"

This hypocrisy is rife within feminist thinking as a whole, and is sadly unsurprising. As someone who lost their dad at a young age, and who has observed the deeply positive influences good fathers have, I can safely state that boys really, really benefit from a healthy male figure. Of course, that doesn't have to be their father, but the emotional connection is something unique and to be treasured. Though he's no longer with us, I use what I know about my father to help me think in difficult times, and to give myself encouragement- and it usually works very well. This person in the post clearly doesn't understand or care about boys, and likely will prove to be a deeply problematic parent. Besides, compassion et al are human traits, not feminine ones. They should probably read a book that isn't some rubbish feminst text.

Blauwpetje · 2021-07-27T10:12:01+00:00

People are so complicated and different that yes, it may be very well possible that two women raise a healthy boy. But the linked opinion sounds too ideological to me - as if the sex of the people in the boy's life doesn't matter at all; or worse - as if 'female energy' has a priority for young men. I know a lesbian couple with a son, and they let him have a 'men's day' regularly with his biological father. I think that is a wise idea.

djblackprince · 2021-07-26T23:09:00+00:00

She sounds like a toxic asshole. She should stay out of her kids and men's lives.

Blutarg · 2021-07-27T01:33:57+00:00

Its baloney. Research has overwhelmingly shown that children need father figures, so much that I think we can say they need fathers.

If I am allowed to say that!

Metrack14 · 2021-07-27T19:28:48+00:00

I come from a fatherless home ('dad' just ditch us), you bet your goddamm existence it is necessary. I didn't learn proper boundaries, how to defend myself, to learn fix basic stuff, etc. I let people use me as a doormat and I was bullied into hell and back, because I didn't had the guts to defend myself.

"be more femine", fuck that. Understanding feminity (dunno if I wrote it correctly), sure. But being more "open with your emotions" and other BS men can't do that. Both because the world legit doesn't care and because we only get ridicule

BootyliciousURD · 2021-07-26T22:27:04+00:00

As they say, it takes a village

I think children need a diverse range of role positive role models. That doesn't necessarily mean they need father figures or mother figures.

DontTakeMyNoise · 2021-07-26T22:36:04+00:00

I generally think that gender roles are largely socially manufactured. No reason a man can't have "traditionally feminine" traits, or a woman can't have "traditionally masculine" traits.

This person sounds like they think young boys would benefit from being exposed to less toxic masculinity, which I'm all for. Positive masculinity exists though; as does toxic femininity.

Be kind people. That's about it. That'll solve most situations just fine.

infinitofluxo · 2021-07-27T12:39:50+00:00

The way they want to make the father figure optional or even undesirable reduces the role of fathers to providers only, which is also extremely dehumanizing to men as we have feelings and attachment too. Kids are made by men and women and it makes no sense to civilization to exclude one part. Maybe in wild nature it happened once upon a time (and as we can see, not to all animals) but we have historical proof that men have been providing and caring for both their women and their kids for millenniums.

They are trying to reinforce the myth that all women are attached to their kids in ways no "sperm donor" could ever be, but as we can see, not all women love or want the kids they have and it is not rare to see men that love and care for their children more then said women could ever do.

In my opinion, as some Psychology theories have shown, it is healthy to have mother and father figures in life, as heterosexual people can learn a lot from the opposite sex and usually there is a correlation between having had a caregiver from the opposite sex in the quality of attachment people will have in their love life later.

The left should be in no way associating with ideas that dehumanize men and leave children to be raised by only women as a social norm, people deserve fathers and grandpas.

almostdedxd · 2021-07-27T16:29:07+00:00

father figure isn't always tied to one sex

it can be someone who imparts certain values on the child

and yes, a same sex role model is always beneficial to a child because they can related with them better, they both understand each other's problems easier, have had similar experiences

UnHope20 · 2021-07-26T23:10:16+00:00

As long as the child has loving, parents who raise them to be productive members of society, they will grow up ok.

Whether that's two women, two men, a man and a woman, a single parent or some other variation.

Technically, a kid doesn't need parents at all once it reaches a certain age. Throughout history there have been homeless orphans and they still exist today in many parts of the world.

So in that sense, who needs a mom or a dad when you can run these streets?

But I take issue with the statement my kid needs more "Feminine energy". What the heck is that? In all of my chemistry and physics textbooks I've never heard of this phenomenon.

Who discovered it and is there an equation that describes it?

mediocre_marsupial_ · 2021-07-27T02:48:46+00:00

It doesn’t matter, a two parent household is more successful regardless of the gender of the parents involved

T_Nightingale · 2021-07-27T12:38:47+00:00

She's mixing two technologies there. Male role model and masculine role model (father figure) are two different things.

A male role model will show how someone of the same biological features utilises and treats those same biological feature such as strength and a penis etc.

A masculine role model will show how to enact masculine standards and uphold masculine values within their culture.

stunspot · 2021-07-27T04:32:55+00:00

Now I'm triggered. What a hateful termagant! People like this would cheerfully commit gendercide given the opportunity. To hell with 'em.

beatstorelax · 2021-07-27T13:56:36+00:00

women can be fathers figures, actually.... BUT, will this be always the case? i dont think so, especially with how little time modern parents have with their kids.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2021-07-27T14:38:24+00:00

She takes a reasonable argument "we don't need gendered role models" and then corrupts it with "well, actually we do, we need female role models". So actually she doesn't care about gender roles being restrictive, she just wants as many people to adhere to the "feminine" caricature as possible.

Algoresball · 2021-07-27T19:58:02+00:00

I think it’s wrong. I understand where she is coming from and why she gets upset, but she’s wrong. Women don’t understand what it’s like to be men, they can’t prepare boys for the reality of being a man.

My father not being around often ( and acting like a psycho when he was) is the genesis of my mental health issues. I was raised by a wonderful single mother, but she doesn’t understand male issues and couldn’t prepare me for them

I’m not saying a gay couple can’t raise a child of the opposite gender or that a single mother can’t raise a great child. But part of doing that is understanding that you don’t have all the answers and need to find someone you trust to help

They’re not giving their son the tools he is going to need.

Eatmyrim · 2021-07-31T15:50:09+00:00

Your willingly creating a damaged person, when growing up a child needs both a fatherly and a motherly figure, depriving of one or the other has big consiquences eather on his behaviour or his relationships as an adult.

Enticing_Venom · 2021-08-01T06:59:34+00:00

This is a topic I genuinely don't have an answer to. In criminal justice we talk all the time about the effects of fatherless households. And when it pertains to gang intervention specifically there is a lot of discussion about having positive male role models in the community who can serve as an example to young men.

While part of me questions whether it's the inclusion of a man specifically (take a two parent lesbian household for instance) or just the need for a stable upbringing with two positive parental figures.

Another part of me questions whether it's not the maleness per se but the traditional "masculinity" that can be beneficial in some regard. We may associate empathy, compassion, nurturing and love with femininity at the same time guidance, safety, security, assertiveness, etc with masculine traits. And there is no reason that two lesvian parents or a single parent can't embody both masculine and feminine qualities to help bring a child into adulthood. Ideally these traits are becoming less gendered overall.

Do young men benefit specifically from having a father figure or is there something else that is common across fatherless households that drives a lot of poor outcomes?

It's difficult to say without further research.

I think one place to start is studying outcomes in lesbian households and outcomes from implementing female gang interventionists as well as male gang interventionists and seeing if a "male role model" is really the key in these situations.

BannanasAreEvil · 2021-07-27T13:49:07+00:00

Ok, no hate with this comment but I find most lesbians to be somewhat toxic compared to gay men. Also note that I am using very gendered language as more of a gendered segmented society descriptor rather than suggesting "X" is supposed to be exclusively gendered behavior or personality.

I mean when was the last time you heard a gay guy state he hated women? Gay men, the more effeminate ones seem to have speech and behavior patterns that resemble women much more closely. I don't hear them bashing and hating women. The more masculine gay men don't really seem to express any hate or bigotry towards women either, at most they seem just indifferent. Not overly friendly but not mean spirited either.

Yet lesbians will straight up spit hate towards men! This of course is not all lesbians but the vocal ones seem to be quite angry at men.

My fear with the couple in this story is that they will make that boy feel shame for being a boy most of his life. Tell him why he needs THEM to teach HIM the proper way to behave because HE would not know how to be good otherwise because HE was born the wrong gender.

I certainly believe lesbian and gay couples can raise healthy and well adjusted children, but maybe its my gender lived bias but I think 2 gay dads would be better raising a boy then 2 lesbian moms. When I really think on it, like really look into my fears about my own sexuality. I think I would have struggled to be straight in a lesbian raised household more so than a gay one.

I think its because I think the gay dads would feel more pressure to NOT raise a gay son than lesbians would. As in I think they would self check what they are saying and preaching more to make sure they are not directing bias towards their children.

Maybe its because of the trope that lesbian women are just women who have been hurt by men and gay men are just men who want to be women. Maybe that trope has shaped my view of each parental type. Either way, that couple seems toxic and I hope that boy grows up not hating himself or other men because (as it sounds) he is being raised by at least one "man hater".

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