why is it so hard to get feminists to have a fair and open debate?

TitanicPat · 2022-04-24T21:04:58+00:00

A whight Knight once told me "not all feminists are like that!" AND "If you're not part if the problem, then feminists aren't talking about you" in a single reply.

White knights and feminists don't actually need fair and open debate. Feminism is a protected class, they don't have to be correct. It's why claims like the wage gap get debunked over and over again, but the pay gap slogans and banners remain the same. It's why no matter how much evidence there is of near parity in Dv victims by gender, the insistence will remain that men absolutely cannot be victims.

maxlvb · 2022-04-25T00:31:27+00:00

"Feminism is for men too!"

Okay, well as men here's what we struggle with.

"Not everything needs to be about men, alright? Besides, solving women's issues will solve men's issues."

Okay, but what about all these men's issues that aren't linked to women's issues?

"Then make your own group and stop whining! God, men can be so fragile."

Okay, here's this group we made. We're gonna assemble and talk about men's issues.

"Misogynists! You just want to hate on women! If you really cared about equality you'd be feminists!"

Feminism:Equality, when convenient.

Superb-Locksmith-228 · 2022-04-24T18:46:52+00:00

Because they are not interested in a debate. They have nothing to gain with a debate.

Aimless-Nomad · 2022-04-24T18:34:03+00:00

Cos they are agenda driven bigots

They can't shame your arguement so they shame you

Ignore them

ms4720 · 2022-04-24T18:42:32+00:00

Because their ideas are destroyed in fair and open debate

Suddenly_Sisyphus42 · 2022-04-24T19:59:46+00:00

Feminists have nothing to win by debating, they hold more power and can easily shut you down; with a such a heavy power imbalance they don't need to display any empathy. If they debate in a free, fair, open, and respectful way then they risk having their lies exposed and losing power, which is unacceptable for them. It really is a zero sum game for most feminists and they can't give an inch.

babybear68 · 2022-04-24T23:41:19+00:00

The current state of feminism is militant victim mentality in its most raw form. They have no interest in debating anything.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-04-24T18:33:43+00:00

Reality has an antifeminist bias.

Final_Collection_515 · 2022-04-24T18:38:02+00:00

Cause they debate using emotions and things that everyone knows has been debunked but are to afraid to point out

gerrta_hard · 2022-04-25T04:07:20+00:00

Because a feminist, today, has no ground to stand on. Only faith, and a righteous indignation towards the lies and half-truth they've made their religion.

Have you ever tried discussing with a religious person with rational arguments?

explains it nicely.

Add to that today's social media sphere and the need to produce soundbites and gotchas for said social media presence, it's easy to see why most "debates" with feminists end with both parties at exactly the same opinion as they started with.

maxlvb · 2022-04-25T00:32:54+00:00

All Feminist Argumentative strategies.

“Agree with me or you’re a misogynist”

“Agree with me or you’re part of the problem”

“Agree with me or you’re an abuser”

“Agree with me or you’re an incel”

“Agree with me or you’re a narcissist”

“Agree with me or you’re an abuse apologist”

“Agree with me or I’ll report you to your employer”

Inside most feminists is a misandrist totalitarian screaming to get out. They don't like having another point of view in the room and they try to squash it by character assassination and name calling.

Saltydawg1064 · 2022-04-24T20:25:47+00:00

they dont want a debate, they want you to take the blame for all their failures.

Period.

DepressedDandylion · 2022-04-24T18:46:58+00:00

It's a waste of time. They never want to reason and just end up criticizing and insulting everyone. They're too self-righteous to consider opposing views

DavidByron2 · 2022-04-24T18:56:25+00:00

Because they know they'd lose.

OldSamVimes · 2022-04-24T21:01:42+00:00

It's hard to have a debate with any ideologue.

When I notice people labeling themselves and seemingly needing to label others, I don't expect rational discourse.

Adeus_Ayrton · 2022-04-24T22:39:55+00:00

Cause it's a cult.

maxlvb · 2022-04-25T00:28:31+00:00

Because this:

When the whole ideology is based on hatred of men, when their whole thought process and reasoning revolve around that hatred, they become totally blinded to reason, logic, and facts, and become angry at your presentation of them.
At the heart of feminism is the construction of gender polarisation, in which femininity and masculinity are assumed to be clearly delineated as female good, male bad. Any transgression of this ideology demands punitive measures to prevent it happening.
It's telling that criticisms of feminism are seen as an issue while feminists don't see how they treat men as oppressors and women as victims to be an issue. What they dislike, is their power to be challenged since they believe in the righteousness of their position.

Men need feminism like bicycles need fish.

May097 · 2022-04-25T03:05:17+00:00

People on average don't like their beliefs challenged. Much the same reasons that so many antifeminists are not open to a civil debate.

The problem is pekple not wanting to think critically of their own beliefs and the addition of victim mentality.

2022-04-25T07:33:23+00:00

I have been to your place, my conclusion is because they lack the ability to do so. Fuck the education system.

springy · 2022-04-24T19:32:56+00:00

You can't have a rational discussion with irrational people. Toxic feminists are driven by emotion, and the more you try to have a rational discussion the more emotional they become.

Wind5656 · 2022-04-24T23:48:11+00:00

As a gay man, I think females (en masse) don’t genuinely love and appreciate men. They use you guys for selfish gain, and their narcissism justifies it all.

I’m really sorry. Dude, for real…I’m so sorry.

Men are kinder, with sweeter souls. It may be difficult at times, but always appreciate your ability to listen to others’ needs. Men keep society together :)

My heart beats for you. Even if you don’t want me sexually, I ache inside when hearing how lonely and discontent you feel…you deserve to feel heard, to be hugged, and to be loved. Maybe one day women will start appreciating how lucky they are to be the objects of male adoration.

TraehNoil · 2022-04-24T21:52:53+00:00

It’s like asking a nazi or a racist to have an open mind, just doesn’t happen

wesg913 · 2022-04-24T21:08:40+00:00

Because you have to be mentally unstable to be the modern version of feminist.

Mechanik_J · 2022-04-24T23:14:34+00:00

Because they're disguising misandry with the wokeness of feminism. Women and men aren't equal, we're complimentary.

JackeTuffTuff · 2022-04-24T22:22:03+00:00

My guess is that part of it is that many feminists are in some degree against free spech, because of hate speech or anything else feminism is against, maybe that makes opposing points seems like ”hate”

Also, it might add that feminism is right and the norm so feminists believe that their feminism is right and everything else is evil

Purely speculation

But as you say, even in the feminism subreddit, opposing points are not welcome (if a comment isn’t ”feministic” enough it Will get banned), it’s a shame. I’d love to have s conversation with feminists but don’t know anyone close enough and it’s not really possible on the internet, that i know of

StingRayFins · 2022-04-24T20:48:05+00:00

Too emotional

ShitFauxBrains · 2022-04-24T21:12:58+00:00

they are narcissists. stay away

MadBlackGreek · 2022-04-24T21:33:17+00:00

If I had film-editing software, I swear, I'd take one of their videos & every time they said "men do this" or "men are that", I'd dub over "men" with "Black people" or some-such, just so peoople could get the perspective on just how bigoted their views really are.

And that includes Black women that identify as feminists. It's no wonder the Black Family has become such a shit-show in the past 40 years.

bagofjokes · 2022-04-25T01:06:52+00:00

I think the answer is a lot more sinister from a psychological point of view. As in, most of them can't help themselves but think this way, it's a function of their psyche. I find this sub, and men in general, tend to project their psyche onto the feminist crowd: this causes us confusion with the irrational responses that are received.

I presume, if we're able to adjust our psyche (which is nearly impossible), we'll be able to perceive the rationality behind their irrationalness... Just my 2 cents after plunging into a few of Carl Jung's writings.

Alarming_Draw · 2022-04-24T20:50:05+00:00

Cos theyre feminists. The answers in the question. Feminism isnt fair, reasonable, open to debate. It is 99 percent toxic, man hating, hysterical, based on feeelzzz and personal imaginary experiences of the biased feminist speaking.

saturdayshark · 2022-04-24T20:55:18+00:00

You cant have a fair argument because they cant argue, they instantly run out of things to say and either ban/block you or go for personal attacks.

International_Risk82 · 2022-04-24T20:59:19+00:00

Two words: Victim Mentality

traveller1976 · 2022-04-24T21:11:21+00:00

Because like all movements based on lies, a fair honest and open debate will result in humiliation and exposure. Therefore it's easier to be in constant attack mode. It's better not to engage with these types, society is preset to let them win. Disconnect. Rather seek out the few remaining women who see men as humans and not dogs.

2022-04-24T21:27:30+00:00

Fairness is not in their blood.

Their whole foundation is based on the idea of unfairness

von-schlitterbahn · 2022-04-24T22:31:59+00:00

These same egotistical attacks are what little girls learn in Jr high, and love snarky bully tactics, and never seam to go up. Say and do what they want, go home and watch the Hallmark channel, and complain they can't find the love on their own terms, which constantly change, so the drama continues.

AnAgentOfMyOwnMaking · 2022-04-24T19:21:36+00:00

I think “feminists” should just be replaced with “people”. I understand this is a community where the discussion is about men and feminists, but truly open and academic discussion is increasingly difficult for me to find. Politics is a big one, but everything has branched into politics, be it climate change, the vaccine, personal finance, etc etc.

The whole done sharing empathy side - OP, just take a break. Sometimes we have to recognize quickly that certain people are unable to empathize or have a proper discussion, especially in that moment or situation they’re sharing with us. Don’t toss out empathy with the trash. Take a break, regroup, and learn when it’s best for you to extend that courtesy to others. Because clearly you’re getting burned, and constantly extending that courtesy isn’t the answer.

chrisdidwht · 2022-04-25T01:10:21+00:00

Lol thank you. Will do.

bilgediver · 2022-04-24T20:51:22+00:00

emotion.

gamerlololdude · 2022-04-24T22:14:50+00:00

Understand that sociology is a whole science so when you get armchair sociologists complaining about social issues it’s not really the person to have debates with.

You wouldn’t attempt to argue with someone about abstract math concepts if they didn’t actually take/learn abstract math.

Same thing is happening here except the social sciences seem to attract armchair people because they think it can’t get technical. Like human sexuality is a whole science but people think they understand human sexuality just because they had sex. Or gynaecology is a whole science but some people with a uterus think they understand how everything works just because they have the organs.

So really you are talking to the wrong people. When people say Judith Butler is a feminist philosopher that is drastically different from your average random person claiming to be a feminist.

Talking to an average person claiming to be Christian is drastically different to talking to someone with a masters in divinity and ordained as a Christian leader.

The people you could be talking to may also just be venting so not ready for a debate. I like to think of it as logic hat vs emotion hat. You need to have the same hat on to talk with someone. If they are coming with emotion, you attempting to talk with logic will make you come off insensitive. There is a time and place for both hats. emotion hat requires you to use emotional intelligence to see what is it they are communicating besides the words: are they upset, overwhelmed, hurt, embarrassed. How could you help them from an emotional support perspective if that is what they need. logic hat is where you can have debates about concepts but both parties need to be educated somewhat so it’s a productive debate.

AndyBrown65 · 2022-04-25T02:29:16+00:00

You cannot have a rational, sensible discussion with feminists.

Every fucking time its just personal attacks "youre a loser, incel.."

Whenever someone starts personal attacks, you just know you have won.

Puzzleheaded-Heat174 · 2022-04-25T02:39:48+00:00

I often get into debates and I almost always win these debates because my arguments are based in reality and are backed by facts and figures and when ever I completely debunk there argument they ether ignore me, shame/insult me or continue there argument even though there argument has been completely exposed as bull shit they never question themselves or question there views they always spew the same bullshit they are so stubborn

a-man-from-earth · 2022-04-25T03:52:45+00:00

Because feminism is like a religion. It would cause too much cognitive dissonance to have their dogma challenged. If you don't agree with them you're a ~~heretic~~ misogynist.

colder-fusion · 2022-04-25T04:01:51+00:00

Feminists are just like the people they claim to hate.

marks1995 · 2022-04-25T04:16:23+00:00

The bigger question here is "Why are you trying to debate them?"

Feminism is a blame game and you are the enemy. Of course they aren't going to have a civil discussion with you. You're the issue in their eyes.

DirtyPartyMan · 2022-04-25T04:44:29+00:00

Logic Vs. Emotion.

Basically.

ImTheTrueFireStarter · 2022-04-25T05:50:05+00:00

Thats because they don’t want to debate

They want to whine and moan about how they are “oppressed” when they have NO CLUE what oppression really is.

GradeOk8691 · 2022-04-25T07:43:24+00:00

Sticks and stones may break my bones ..but there will always be something that offends a femenist

NwbieGD · 2022-04-25T10:20:56+00:00

As soon as someone begins about something likes this or that, by example a pay gap that in many places and fields doesn't exist anymore among those under 40 ... (Less than 3% I consider negligible and possibly caused by unquantifiable factors)

You should ask for specific information, often they can't answer, to which you can say, something along the lines of, " So you don't even know the basic statistics/figures and you just assumed you were right and that there's a pay gap. Is that based on anecdotal evidence or where do you get this unsubstantiated idea from?". Of course this can piss them off but it does show they don't know shit about the topic they tried to discuss/debate.

A question for the pay gap can be, "Okay what's the pay gap, percentage wise for people under 40 when compared per field/job?", Or something similar, funnily enough often searchable. (Btw that last part is essential, below some sources that point out why.)

I generally say that in my country in my field, there isn't much or any gap below 40, I work in a scientific technical field, most people don't give a fuck about you but just the results you deliver. "In scientific and technical occupations it's more likely and it's possible to combine having a good job with having some flexibility in your work hours or lower work hours," says Burtless.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/amp

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/28/8-economists-on-what-youre-getting-wrong-about-the-gender-pay-gap.html

Median Vs Average
https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/18/gender-pay-gap-still-narrowing

Finally, instead of looking at gross wages and salaries, net earnings can be considered as well. In 2019, women’s median net hourly wages were 2 percent higher than men’s: 50 percent of men’s working hours were paid at a net hourly wage of no more than 16.64 euros, while 50 percent of women’s working hours were paid at a net hourly wage of no less than 16.95 euros.

Age
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics#Gender_pay_gap_much_lower_for_young_employees
Keep in mind older people are also from a different period and generation, thus maybe holding on to more old fashioned ideas, and a different work culture. As you can see the pay gap for those under 35 in the Netherlands is less than 2% ...

.

Sweden showing by gender is often not the reason,

Our first and central finding is that, when we compare men and women working in the sameoccupation for the same employer, the wage gap has been small for the past 20 years. At theoccupation-establishment level, the gap defined in this way is lowest among blue-collar workers,about 1.4 percent, while it is larger among white-collar workers, about 5 percent. This larger gapmay reflect that the occupational codes among white-collar workers are cruder than those we haveaccess to among blue-collar workers. The second group of findings compares the relative power ofsegregation by occupation or establishment to explain the gender wage gap. For white-collarworkers, occupational segregation is far more important. Establishment segregation explains just9.1 percent of the gap, whereas occupational segregation explains 75 percent.

Equal Pay for Equal Work? Evidence from Sweden and a Comparison with Norway and the U.S. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4919574_Equal_Pay_for_Equal_Work_Evidence_from_Sweden_and_a_Comparison_with_Norway_and_the_US [accessed Apr 25 2022].

TheGalaSisters · 2022-04-24T22:14:27+00:00

That’s literally what we’re here for. Come talk to us. https://youtu.be/bDIqea9FlHg

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-04-24T22:37:16+00:00

The bottom line is that they don't even consider that there is another perspective. This has been reinforced with them for decades, and continues to be doubled down upon by every media outlet and political pundit that there is.

The worst part is that the way they are indoctrinated is to start from an already spurious (if not outlandish) place and only go down hill from there in terms of logic and truth.

In essence, the entirety of the feminist platform is analogous to someone asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?", skipping right past the question of whether you are or not. And nobody on that side is willing to even consider that their foundational premise could be even the least bit flawed.

So, no, you will never get a fair or reasonable debate because they simply can't imagine that there is anything to even debate.

2022-04-25T02:28:53+00:00

They don't engage in logical arguments, as they know they will loose. Lies, name calling, insults and reputation destruction are all they have. Nothing of substance or value to offer.

Cvnttttt · 2022-04-24T23:58:33+00:00

I’d happily have a discussion like this, as a feminist who truly believes in equality( which is what feminism really is about, lots of “feminists” have forgotten that though).

How can we ever be equal in society if we refuse to see the things we do that clearly harm others, in this situation not letting men have a say and just throwing personal attacks at them.

2022-04-25T01:54:37+00:00

I feel bad for most feminists. Genuinely I see that most of them are incredibly unhappy and in their masculine. I don’t think I have ever met a happy feminist. They think that working in an office will somehow be more rewarding than raising children. I feel just as bad when I see white knights and beta males. They’ve all been lied to by ideologues, and continue to propagate the misery to others. Feminism has done more to harm relations between the genders than anything else.

MiKasX · 2022-04-25T09:01:19+00:00

It hard to debate with someone we hate.

itscoldupheredude · 2022-04-25T09:28:35+00:00

Kettle meet pot lol

richasalannister · 2022-04-25T00:08:17+00:00

Lack of trust. Look at the top comments and ask yourself if you were a feminist would you assume people wanting to debate you are doing so in good faith.
Debates suck in general for exchanging ideas. It's a skill that can be learned. A skilled debator doesn't necessarily have better ideas.
From your comment my guess would also be the timing. Are you offering to exchange view points with feminists? Or are you responding to their complaints? Because there's a time and a place for it.

I wouldn't insult them but I definitely wouldn't be open to discussing abuse women face if I'm in the middle of talking about the Johnny Depp trial. It's derailing.

Just like I don't want to hear about "black on black" crime whenever a black person is killed by the police.

Often times those kinds of interjections are only meant to disrupt the conversation. I'm not saying youre doing that, but that's how it could look from the outside.

Just my two cents.

trapezemaster · 2022-04-25T01:34:38+00:00

I think feminists aren’t interested in hearing about men complain because men have been so intolerant of women’s complaints about rights for so long. I’m a feminist man. I recognize that men have had some disadvantages. But this group is often a bit viscous in the name of equality. It’s a very male attitude. “Give me this or else fuck you”…..the path to equality is relentless compassion and empathy. Show some and this movement might get some traction. Failure to display empathy to women and other oppressed groups just undermines the cause. Compared to the plight of men, theirs is just very different. This is what you need to understand when people oppose opinions of the mens rights movement. No one wants to hear men complain about their rights. People DO want to hear about how people are abused and oppressed and how we can fix that. I’m a man and new to this group. So far I’ve heard some good arguments…and a lot of vague talking points (not good ones) that only feed the stereo type that men aren’t empathetic. If you can’t display empathy, it’s going to be hard to have a serious conversation about rights. Stop complaining and let’s just talk more about experiences. Those stories can make a difference. I don’t think complaining about feminists is going to help men at all. Probably quite the contrary. Perception is truth, whether it’s true or not. People believe men have not been oppressed. That’s something to overcome.

discoFever1091 · 2022-04-24T18:37:18+00:00

A 2 second look at your history suggests you went to a reddit called 'girl gamers' and complained about women. Then you were surprised when women didn't like it.

Seems like your issues are with girl gamers. Not feminists.

chrisdidwht · 2022-04-24T19:22:05+00:00

Can you provide an example? I think the fact that your title specifies feminists and you fail to actually provide context, isn’t a good sign.

y2kjanelle · 2022-04-25T01:05:28+00:00

Well, I’m glad you are like that. Most male rights activists are not and even though you said you don’t personally attack feminists, most already did here in the comments.

Multiple men’s activists have blamed my rape on me, they have called me a crazy bitch, a terrible person, entitled, selfish, bigoted, they don’t give credible arguments, they’re uneducated and almost none are willing to listen or learn.

I’m very open and fair with debates. But not disrespect or misogyny and I’ve had yet to come into contact with mens rights activist who advocate for men without shaming women and shaming feminists…evidence being literally this comment section lol.

But anyways, after the multiple, like dozens of men making really horrid comments about rape victims and how I was just “crying rape” because I “regretted sex” really opened my eyes about what kind of men have joined the men’s rights movement or male-centric subs like PPD or RP or MGTOW.

I still have fair debates there but if I see disrespect, I’m not afraid to clap back at all.

supamundane808 · 2022-04-25T01:14:07+00:00

Saying men are this and that is not feminism. Read about feminism to learn more about what it is.

SleepWouldBeNice · 2022-04-25T01:37:45+00:00

Every fucking time its just personal attacks "youre a loser, incel.." all the usual insults. This has happened in every corner of reddit or any other social media.

“If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.”

TAPriceCTR · 2022-04-24T21:12:34+00:00

Because fair and open debate requires consistent logic and reasoning. These in and of themselves are inconsistent with "feminist ethics" as declared BY feminists. They literally called "partiality" an ethic.

caem123 · 2022-04-24T21:31:06+00:00

When you find out why, you'll no longer request a debate.

Gonzila077 · 2022-04-24T22:02:18+00:00

Because their arguments and views are bogus and full of shit and in a debate they mightn’t just have to defend them

2022-04-24T22:18:33+00:00

"Why is it do hard to get The Romans to have a fair and open debate?" - Vercingetorix

RecoveringCoomer · 2022-04-24T22:41:49+00:00

I'm done giving empathy to people who have no empathy towards me, or men in general.

If a feminist asks for my support, or even my attention for any women's issue, I first ask them how much they care about men's issues first.

At best, I get a blank stare. At worst, I'm called names (misogynist, incel, sexist, racist whatever)

See:
http://empathygap.uk/

2022-04-24T22:51:23+00:00

Feminism like that is nothing but self-serving and do not care about men as a group or individually but only I how they can manipulate you and cheat you as a person with giving little it no ground.

They are what an uncle once told me they had old school. They might do everything you like give you BJ after BJ bring you a beer make a great dinner. But after the wedding night you are going to jack yourself off and fix her dinner and clean the house from there after and those BJ's will never be seen again.

Nixthebitx · 2022-04-24T23:54:41+00:00

I'm sorry you've faced this. I'm sorry you've extended so much energy to people who are, frankly, only takers, self-victimizers, one-uppers, hypocrites, and closed-minded. Let's be real: the connotation and denotation of the word ARGUMENT has been completely twisted at this point. I've found too often that many people genuinely seem disinterested in actually participating in what I like to call "thought exercises". Even if it's a topic I have passionate feelings about, I'm like you.. I try to see another's viewpoint to reach some kind of respectful middle ground. Without the ability to take part in that kind of communication technique, we humans would be no better than barking dogs - just trying to see who's loudest and most aggressive. We've all had shite encounters in life with this man or that woman..oh well. They don't represent the mass population, and the minute we start acting like they do is the minute we become the problem.

zeerust2000 · 2022-04-24T23:56:51+00:00

They are ideologues. Their purpose is to promote their ideology, which is fixed and not open to debate. Their only interest is in whether you agree or not. If you agree, you are correct. If you don't agree, you are incorrect. To them, there is no purpose in a debate or discussion. Why debate something when it is perfectly clear who is right and who is wrong?

name556 · 2022-04-25T00:34:02+00:00

Because humans are beings of emotion not reason.

SnooJokes1401 · 2022-04-25T02:43:27+00:00

Because they're weak to logic types.

DazzlingAd8284 · 2022-04-25T02:46:43+00:00

Ohh i feel you. I got into an argument with one woman about false rpe accusations and how women should be punished for them more severely. She responded by saying “I hope you have a daughter and she gets rped” like what the hell?!

RicoSour · 2022-04-25T03:39:00+00:00

That's the thing they don't go that far in person usually unless they're with their posse. Keep social media light and fun, not always the best source of information or people

TheOnlyDijaini · 2022-04-25T05:20:23+00:00

Because feminism is currently a belief system similar to current political views or religion rather than fact based activism to achieve equality between genders. Be aware that any conversation with a white knight or a feminist will be conversation with a cult member in desperate need of deprogramming. If you ever manage to achieve this worthwhile goal, prepare that person because they will be attacked and shunned for being open enough to listen to a point of view different than their own.

2022-04-25T06:08:07+00:00

Feminists treat men like animals, and no one would debate an animal or anything other subhuman

2022-04-25T06:17:04+00:00

Simply: they have build a whole industry around it or they hope to gain from it (economically or on a societal level).

If I would score low on empathy, I could start a movement that blames all other people than white male, just to get advantages. While obviously racist and sexist, it would provide me several benefits (compassion, wealth,...) . Once it has given me an advantage I would fight every opposition and in fact escalate the stances of my movement to gather more resources and societal credit.

Ecstatic_Wishbone_30 · 2022-04-25T06:56:58+00:00

You're wasting time trying to debate with them. They won't listen to someone who's not a feminist. They don't even listen to other women! (I mean the women who are not feminists) so why do you expect them to listen to a man who's not only a man but also a non-feminist?

Iceman_Hottie · 2022-04-25T06:58:20+00:00

Because their base assumptions are demonstrably false, and a fair and open debate will make them loose.

What you mention is based on three logical framework features inherited by feminism from romanticism (there are a couple of steps in between).

Narrative over fact. What makes them win is the truth, regardless of evidence and merit. Kind of why showing them the data will not convince them that they are wrong.
Death of nuance. By omitting critical details it becomes easier to make things catchy making it easy to remember, thus scamming people in to supporting them. This is also a reason why over the long term they invariably fail, and invariably create a horrible system at scales over 100 - 1000 of people.
It's not what it's who. If the people not on their side do something good - to them it's a bad thing, however anything they do is a good thing regardless of what it is. Because you oppose them, there is no amount of evidence or logic that will ever convince them.

In the end feminism is not the only thing that follows this framework, and until we get away from the framework men's rights and egalitarianism will not win.

fischbrot · 2022-04-25T07:24:30+00:00

Only read the headline of your post and giggled loudly in the waiting room of the doctor

throwaway22558 · 2022-04-25T07:49:49+00:00

Asking women in general to be fair about gender equality is like asking Joseph Stalin to give up his control over the secret police.

Women in general are narcissistic abusers and should be thought of as such when it comes to their privilege. You cannot reason with abusive people.

Let's prove this with the narcissist's prayer:

That didn't happen. (There is no such thing as bias in favor in women)

And if it did, it wasn't that bad. (And if it did, there's very little in favor of women. Men are more privileged)

And if it was, that's not a big deal. (Women have historically been oppressed. What's the big deal with women having a seat at the table?)
And if it is, that's not my fault. (It's not my fault society has oppressed women and is now in favor of them. That's just the system working to make everything equitable)
And if it was, I didn't mean it. (We had no intention of making women superior. We just wanted equality!)
And if I did, you deserved it. (Men are trash! Kill all men!)

ergot_fungus · 2022-04-25T09:35:27+00:00

Leverage your "male privilege" to the fullest extent (joking) and surpass them in every way. You don't need to debate with them, just win at life and laugh as you watch them lose.

TUKINDZ · 2022-04-25T09:58:23+00:00

In their minds anyone that disagrees with them is defending the patriarchy, which to them is basically like defending Nazis.

Imagine if you were to debate someone that you truly believed, to your core, stood for the nazi ideology. Everything they'd said, to you, would be basically indefensible in your eyes.

MarkMy_Word · 2022-04-25T12:02:01+00:00

Short answer: you can’t argue with most women.

MrPooPooFace2 · 2022-04-25T13:08:55+00:00

They get so emotional because they're riddled with hatred for men

RedPillAlphaBigCock · 2022-04-25T13:12:38+00:00

You are wasting your time , enjoy your life and better yourself and give back to people with help , it will be more Beneficial than going into toxic places

DipsandChip · 2022-04-25T13:28:49+00:00

The ones who are pushing this agenda so hard are not the ones who want to hear the other side out. They are selfish. That is why. They don't care about what anyone else wants because they feel as though they are fighting for a cause that takes precedent over all others.

_Xuixien_ · 2022-04-25T13:42:19+00:00

It’s collective Cluster B.

WesternSmall2794 · 2022-04-25T14:36:16+00:00

It's really unfortunate that you feel so. Your personal experiences, valid, dictate your feelings. And I don't want to downplay them. I'm not gonna say "not all feminists are like that". Saying that wouldn't solve the problem. You're probably past the stage to accept this seemingly Strawman Argument.

As a civilised society we will have to accept these facts: A. Women have been historically oppressed and continue to be oppressed. B. Men have been historically oppressed and continue to be disadvantaged.

Another fact is that men's issues have been conveniently brushed under the carpet. It's nothing but toxic masculinity exhibiting itself.

Men can be and have been raped. Men can be victims of sexual assault. Men have been victims of sexual assault.

Gendered laws have noble intentions but fall short of preventing their rampant misuse. Women have, and I sincerely believe that saying this doesn't make me misogynist, used the laws to their unfair advantage. This MUST be acknowledged, for this unfortunately obscures genuine cases of other women. Of women who have been raped by their male partners. Of genuine domestic violence.

Let me make this crystal-clear. I AM a hardcore feminist. But my version of feminism incorporates elements of men's rights.

That the man is not Always the perpetrator.

That the Man is, just like Woman, a Victim..

2022-04-25T14:54:23+00:00

It's because they are blurting out talking point, but they don't really know what the point is or what it's counter is, they just like how the point sounds for their goal.

This is why if you hear a feminist say "men offer nothing" and you ask them "well, what do you offer men" they get very, very upset. It's because they like how the talking point sounds, their own circle of the same people don't challenge it, so when you do they get really irked because they were expecting you to just accept it and they don't (somehow , STILL don't) have any kind of rebuttal or justification to their statement. It's upsetting because they think/say how awesome they are, how great they are and so on, but have never once had to think or speak beyond that, so when you challenge them they are at a complete loss.

It's like typing in a large problem into a calculator. They see the result (their talking point), but they can't even start to explain how their point (number on the calculator) actually got there. So they just want you to trust their statement in the same way you trust a calculator to give the right answers. Except the answer they get every time is 80085 and it's never anything else.

xcheshirecatxx · 2022-04-25T15:22:33+00:00

They wouldn't be feminists

Even the women I know who used to be feminists prefer using women's rights activists now

TheeSweeney · 2022-04-25T15:45:50+00:00

If their response is “you’re an incel loser” then I’m absolutely certain your position in the conversation is not as tame as “hey guess what women can do bad things too.”

Can you share a specific comment reply/thread where you were being purely reasonable and rational and feminists responded with vitriol for now reason?

Cmon man, look what you’re doing right here, with this post.

You’re making huge assumptions about all feminists, and all women, while getting upset at them for doing the same thing to men. You’re a mirror images of the problem you describe.

gate18 · 2022-04-25T15:53:07+00:00

When women come at me with men are this men are that i hear them out. I listen to their pov and consider all the reasons why she may feel this way. I try to come up with a solution. Everytime i bring up that they can also do bad things there is always an excuse, followed by an attack. Usually by several feminists and white knights. I dont personally attack people.

I'm a feminist. Probably hard-core feminist.

If you are talking to feminists who simply say "men are this man" don't listen to them

Think of any group: Muslims, Christians, feminists, men's rights activists...

In all of those groups, there are people that can't communicate: I haven't been called an incel but a simp, a terrorist, a loser (of course), a pussy, a cunt.

Not "every fucking time" no. If it happened to me every fucking time I would just quit. Imagine being insulted "every fucking time"

They all lost someone that can see both sides and help bridge a gap because they cant possibly imagine a confrontation where they arent the victim and they cant blame it on the patriarchy and toxic masculinity.

No worries, they have plenty of other people that can see both sides. There are almost 8 billion of us, one is not a huge loss.

Talk about the white knight complex.

Honestly, how many feminists are exactly like you that say

"I've been on every man sub and they are all "women this, women that", they just lost a feminist that can see both sides"

To be honest, how many feminists say that

But Nah, man, when they say that they are making it up, not all male subs are like that, but "every corner of Reddit or any other social media" is0 full of feminists that just insult.

It's like those comedy movies where love interests hate each other and the realize they are exactly the same

(fuck, this is going to get downvoted)

Edit: Every time I read such comments that uses absolute terms "Every fucking time", "in every corner of reddit or any other social media", I'm always felt feeling sad!

Fuck feminism for a second

Imagine if you really thought that (whatever it is) happens every time and every corner of the web is the same!

Imagine if you genuinely thought that. It's the same as saying "every man is horrible".

It's the only thing on the web that leaves me feel sad. People that read you and agree with the gist of your comment will not say anything (why would they, attacking someone that is attacking the right people is stupid), but it's sad, and pointless.

Jayradicalmind · 2022-04-25T16:27:18+00:00

exactly and you can't comment on their sub reddits either if you have conflicting or opposing views. You even can't comment on their sub if you are already joined in with a subreddit that conflicts with theirs. They use this tactic alot though I also got deleted a couple times on facebook for commenting on their posts. I Got into a little argument with one of them and I countered it with facts and evidence. Instead of coming to an understanding they just blocked me and deleted my commment.. go figure lol its quite obnoxious and infuriating so makes me believe that there goal really isn't to achieve equality but rather dominance by silencing others who speak against it

Because they are threatened by other opinions cause it would contradict and shut down their opinions and beliefs. This is because they don't go by facts and evidence. Rather pure emotion and hatred for men. They hate facts because it disproves their point and makes their claims invalid. So the more I see them shutting down other peoples opinions I take it as a win and they are defeated..

But of course they don't see it as defeat they think its a game and probably think its funny to shut men down cause its "mansplaining' or some crap. It really annoys me to say the least. So we need to make sure we screen shot every argument in case they try to delete it and then call them out on their bs so other people can see too.

joshawoo71 · 2022-04-25T17:04:01+00:00

Well one start calling them for who they really are. Feminazis.

LordPainos · 2022-04-25T18:07:14+00:00

It's because they are behaving like nazi cats. Wants sympathy but give none. Want everything but give nothing

Maffioze · 2022-04-25T18:10:40+00:00

I'm a young man who called myself a feminist until 3 years ago and who has always been in favour of gender equality.

I'm also sick and tired of it, I constantly find myself arguing with feminists who's arguments are always so inconsistent and hypocritical and they just don't care and insult me instead. I need to stop because it doesn't create anything but suffering for me.

cjgager · 2022-04-25T18:44:59+00:00

there are a whole bunch of different kinds of women - the most general can be seen as "normal" and then there are "feminists" - - - please don't make judgments in your real life to the "feminists" you find on reddit since it sounds like to me (& i'm just an average normal woman) that many in the /feminist sub have been weaponized. i don't know if they all have had terrible experiences but they will even jump down on their own if the person shows any sign of going against their kind of straight & narrow "feministic" "politically correct" viewpoint - which seems almost like a certain churchlike dogmatic belief in the unerring "rightitute" of being a female.

ANY point of view that blinds out the opposing side is unequal.

2022-04-26T12:14:56+00:00

AskFeminists/comments/ublde6/why_is_rmensrights_hated_so_much/

take a look how we talk past each other...

solemnoak · 2022-05-11T08:52:04+00:00

Are there any feminists, who are willing to have an honest, open-minded discussion, without:
1) Resorting to personal attacks, shaming, guilting, or oversimplified “absolutes”/ stereotyping?
2) Preaching moral superiority?
3) Dodging accountability (logical/ empirical evidence to support their positions)?
4) Exiting, blocking, or avoiding “a conversation,” which proves to be uncomfortable, or which contradicts your preconceived beliefs?
I really want to know (and test) my hypothesis, as I’ve probably interacted with less than a handful of “objective” feminists, in the hundreds of online conversations, i’ve witnessed (or participated in, on a social media thread).
In short, I don’t believe that the primary objective, of most “feminist” supporters, is the pursuit of truth, over (emotionally incentivized) rhetoric/ self-serving benefits. Especially, when so few are willing to forgo the “victim card.”

solemnoak · 2022-05-12T01:30:59+00:00

Are there any feminists, who are willing to have an honest, open-minded discussion, without:

⁠Resorting to personal attacks, shaming, guilting, or oversimplified “absolutes”/ stereotyping?
⁠Preaching moral superiority?
⁠Dodging accountability (logical/ empirical evidence to support their positions)?
⁠Exiting, blocking, or avoiding “a conversation,” which proves to be uncomfortable, or which contradicts your preconceived beliefs? I really want to know (and test) my hypothesis, as I’ve probably interacted with less than a handful of “objective” feminists, in the hundreds of online conversations, i’ve witnessed (or participated in, on a social media thread). In short, I don’t believe that the primary objective, of most “feminist” supporters, is the pursuit of truth, over (emotionally incentivized) rhetoric/ self-serving benefits. Especially, when so few are willing to forgo the “victim card.”

Strigon_7 · 2022-06-09T14:19:27+00:00

Would you willingly invalidate the majority of your beliefs for one honest conversation?

Title	why is it so hard to get feminists to have a fair and open debate?
Author	chrisdidwht
Upvotes	538
Comments	274
Date	April 24, 2022 6:31 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ub11v1/why_is_it_so_hard_to_get_feminists_to_have_a_fair/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-is-it-so-hard-to-get-feminists-to-have-a-fair.1111287 https://theredarchive.com/post/1111287

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