Poster I saw at a punk festival. Thoughts (x-posted)

Omnipraetor · 2013-11-06T19:56:16+00:00

I liked it because it was balanced, not focusing on solely one gender.

Bobarhino · 2013-11-06T20:31:10+00:00

My first thought: "Why is there a picture of Hitler?" then I realized it wasn't Hitler...

andylok · 2013-11-06T21:17:36+00:00

This is from crimethinc.

http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters.html

adamcherrytree · 2013-11-06T20:14:55+00:00

I had an easy bake oven, that was the shit. The little cakes were damn tasty

atinasutherland · 2013-11-06T20:02:21+00:00

Fest?

lunatictumor · 2013-11-06T19:34:03+00:00

This started strong, but ended on a sour note.

Mitschu · 2013-11-07T01:23:29+00:00

I think the reason this is rubbing people wrongly is because it smacks of clever, under radar social engineering. Explaining why it reeks when on the surface it's a good message is like a child trying to explain why the air always smells better after a rain without the words to express it.

Here's what I observed: there's a startling dichotomy hidden underneath that may be rubbing people the wrong way simply by merit of being so subconscious.

By design, the trend is everything related to the girl is active / strong voice and the things she does. Everything related to the boy is passive / weak voice and the things done of / to him.

For every girl tired of acting weak, there is a boy tired of appearing strong.

For every boy expected to know everything, there is a girl tired of people not trusting her intelligence.

For every girl who is tired of being called over-sensitive, there is a boy who fears to be gentle.

For every boy expected to prove his masculinity, there's a girl shamed when she competes.

For every boy struggling because of advertising, there's a girl facing attacks on her self-esteem.

Which leads in to why the end rubs people the wrong way, because it finishes the theme bluntly, and runs directly contrary to what is self-evident and generally true in society:

This pamphlet wants us to accept that women act, and men are acted upon.

dejour · 2013-11-06T21:59:35+00:00

I mostly liked it. It reinforces the idea that we have assumptions about men and women and that these assumptions negatively affect men and women in different ways.

Not crazy about the line, "For every boy struggling to not let advertising dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks of her self-esteem."

I think that society (including media) hurts boys and girls self-esteem in different ways. That line makes it seem too much like boys are actors and girls are acted upon.

But I suppose it's best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. So it gets my approval.

xXCptCoolXx · 2013-11-06T19:51:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ilikewc3 · 2013-11-06T20:29:21+00:00

Cool till the last line

wagage1 · 2013-11-06T21:44:31+00:00

This same poster was in my health class.

4merpunk · 2013-11-06T21:41:41+00:00

Its a crimethinc poster

Prefer_Not_To_Say · 2013-11-06T23:54:31+00:00

I've seen this several times and never liked it. It seems to be another twist on the tired old, "want equal rights for men? Support feminism!" statement that we hear from feminists.

Not only that but I've noticed that feminism tends to focus on gender roles a lot more than the MRM; breaking down stereotypical gender roles is important but boys being considered "unmasculine" digs far deeper than wanting to play with an E-Z Bake oven. Lack of support for male victims of rape and domestic violence, for example, but feminist arguments I've read online keep dragging it back to "demolishing gender roles" as the solution rather than "providing more resources".

Then there's the fact that there is no correlation between girls breaking barriers with boys finding it easier to break their own. None at all. Just look at the evolution in fashion and the workplace in the last hundred years; many, many strides made for women but not as many for men. Yeah, it's a bit more acceptable to be a stay-at-home dad and wear eye-liner. Yet we have fewer male teachers and a career in childcare is unlikely.

cryptogirl · 2013-11-06T20:44:56+00:00

A well-received feminist poster at the top of men's rights? Cool :)

DangerDick26 · 2013-11-06T22:31:21+00:00

I liked it until the end.

SmallTownMinds · 2013-11-06T23:32:22+00:00

This is fantastic. Really breaks down the idea of Team Male/Female and promotes Team Human Being, and that's the way it should be.

bullet50000 · 2013-11-06T22:38:01+00:00

I remember in my junior high, we had a "sun room" full of beanbag chairs and big windows, and it was a place that you could go and read when you were done with our work (this was a public high school, so lots of trust there). This was up on the wall.

SpankItRed · 2013-11-06T23:56:32+00:00

Had me until the last line.

2013-11-07T01:07:56+00:00

Good up until the last line, it's basically saying "Boys and Girls both have problems, therefore we need feminism."

dieyoung · 2013-11-07T01:09:31+00:00

Was this at the fest in Gainesville?

kingbasspro · 2013-11-07T02:13:03+00:00

I would have liked an easy bake oven, but I love combat sports. CAN THERE BE NO MIDDLE GROUND?

headless_bourgeoisie · 2013-11-07T03:43:51+00:00

Obviously most people are complaining about the last line, but I find the notion that men all serve at the whim of the media to be deeply insulting.

TPRT · 2013-11-07T05:18:12+00:00

Fuzzfest?

Saw that poster a long time ago, I love it

EDIT: besides the last part

Crimson_D82 · 2013-11-07T06:29:34+00:00

It was going so well till the end. You really think men are finding their freedom easier than women?

rbcrusaders · 2013-11-07T06:55:40+00:00

my thoughts- he isnt "tired of acting strong." he just wants some god damned help. girls get it without needing to ask. boys dont get it. the more they ask, the weaker they look. then the girls make fun of them, and the female teacher sides with them, claiming girls are smarter, more mentally mature, better at math, better leaders, better at sports, have stronger upper bodies........

Deansdale · 2013-11-07T07:50:29+00:00

It's nothing more than cleverly phrased feminist propaganda, implying that men and wome are exactly the same, but society is patriarchal, ie. mysygynystyc. This is stupid. Most of these "observations" (actually feminist counter-stereotypes) were outdated decades ago. Do I have to explain that if you look out the window, the world you see there does not deem women weak or dumb? We live in the age of grrrl power, for cryin' out loud. Turn on the TV, you'll see men portrayed as dumb and women portrayed as smart 95% of the time.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-11-07T04:12:36+00:00

I remember this one.

This poster is insidious, look at the last two points.

2nd to last: Boys = abusers and girls = victims
Last: Patriarchy hurts men too.

Honztastic · 2013-11-06T22:50:24+00:00

Too bad the last line made no fucking sense.

Guys, your equality is based solely on making women more equal.

Hmm. Okay. That's working out well with the whole give girls more help and support systems in schools, courts, etc.

anotherbluemarlin · 2013-11-07T10:49:04+00:00

I'm quite bored with this " hey men are sensible and want to cry too", they are desperate to play with girls toys and bake cookies.

No, i don't. I just want scotch. But i deserve equal rights even if i'm not your ideal struggling with it's feelings male.

typhonblue · 2013-11-07T16:30:00+00:00

For every woman cast as a victim when she's not, there's a man who doesn't get help when he needs it.

Offensive_Brute · 2013-11-07T00:01:53+00:00

Most boys grow into men who are happy and proud to be men. We dont hate our biological sex and the natural gender roles thats come up around it.

MRMRising · 2013-11-06T23:02:03+00:00

The last sentence is fucked, boys and men have a much harder time in the pursuit of male autonomy. Woman walked away from the social contract years ago, now men are MGTOW, and people are losing it.

Omni314 · 2013-11-06T19:51:52+00:00

It's good, but using pink for a girl ~~and blue for a boy~~? Come on!

cupatea · 2013-11-06T23:03:19+00:00

I love this

fleshhook · 2013-11-07T04:39:41+00:00

Its on my wall. Crimethinc puts out a bunch of awesome shit.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-11-07T06:29:32+00:00

I am just glad that it didn't end up saying "Patriarchy hurts us all."

Still, at least it's something we men don't see everyday.

yourunconscious · 2013-11-07T10:59:11+00:00

I wouldn't say 'for every' is accurate. Some idiosyncrasies lie heavier with certain genders, we're not 100% the same ffs, testosterone and oestrogen balance at the very least affects our behaviour, let alone cultural and societal expectations.

YouJustLostTheGame · 2014-04-04T22:37:36+00:00

Men's Rights and Women's Rights are the same movement...ironically split in two across gender lines. :\

BrnndoOHggns · 2013-11-07T07:59:00+00:00

I think this is a lot more positive than most of the men's rights or feminist material that shows up on reddit. It addresses difficulties faced by members of both genders, and doesn't place blame on anyone.

jabberwockysuperfly · 2013-11-07T14:47:13+00:00

MR, or at least this thread, seems to be filled with feminists or feminist apologists. This is bullshit. Stop trying to co-opt this movement. Feminism does not, and has never concerned itself with helping men. The idea that it does is an ad hoc rationalization intended to prevent men from cooperating in pursuit of their own rights. Feminism is concerned only with advancing the interests of women, often at men's expense.

Chizumaru · 2013-11-06T23:00:49+00:00

This is perfect

Mr6656 · 2013-11-06T22:01:40+00:00

Thank you.

Falkner09 · 2013-11-07T00:39:09+00:00

I had an easy bake oven. that shit was false advertising. it was no easier to bake a cake, you still needed an adult, and it even took longer to make one.

xDrSchnugglesx · 2013-11-07T03:34:31+00:00

I liked it. I feel this way sometimes. Especially the one where people expect me to know things.

only_does_reposts · 2013-11-06T22:58:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

hugged_at_gunpoint · 2013-11-07T03:29:40+00:00

Fantastic poster. Not going to over-analyze the last sentence.

warspite88 · 2013-11-07T14:45:14+00:00

I loved it. Both men and women face social stereotypes. Both men and women fight every day if they are different from the social norm. It is easier for women now, but it wasn't any different for them before feminism.

I don't see feminism as a historical whole as 100% bad. Yes, there are a lot of problems with it, it has helped one gender at the expense of the other, and has caused imbalances which need to be fixed. I can quote all the stats verbatim after 15 years of being an mra. I do not think feminism stands for equality today and it needs to be exposed for this.

But feminism also threw off the notion for women of having to live in a strict, gender-normed, usually christian, society. It is also doing the same for men, more slowly. This generation of kids growing up has boys who feel far more free to express themselves, and that is a very good thing. And this generation of kids are starting to look at rape against men, violence against men, how men are disposable and things like the draft. They are not married to the men perp vs women/victim mentality nearly as much as our generation and generations past.

My sons live in this new world. My older son wears a skirt around the house because it is comfortable. My younger son has dressed in women's clothing in plays, and has dressed up as a woman for halloween and other occasions. His facebook picture is him in a long pink glam wig. Both are normal, heterosexual young men, but they are not constrained by societal norms like boys in my generation. I love the fact that they can express themselves. They ride motorcycles, play instruments, cook, create art, play video games...they are who they are without society telling them who they should be and what they should do.

There was even a facebook post this morning from a college girl about 24 things rape victims were told during their rape...and it was all male victims. This is progress.

tl;dr I think this message was a powerful one and I really liked the poster.

dejour · 2013-11-06T20:33:26+00:00

So the formulation is that we free women by allowing them to be strong/stop pretending to be weak, and we free man by allowing them to be weak/stop pretending to be strong.

Some of the pairs fit the formulation better than others. I don't know what ads the poster designer was looking at, but we've already had a generation of strong intelligent women and stupid weak men in TV ads. Maybe that's progress in terms of the poster - those ads certainly aren't creating any social expectation that men should know everything.

The neat mirror-image equations in the poster can only be made to balance by leaving out terms for female damseling and male disposability. For women, revealing weakness is a form of soft power, enlisting empathy and practical help. There's no equivalent power for men revealing weakness - they get the cringe response and armslength treatment. In terms of cold self-interest, a perfunctory pat on the head for challenging gender roles doesn't make it worthwhile.

Godspiral · 2013-11-06T23:50:32+00:00

This is feminist thinking for what men's rights should be, and I wouldn't call it feminists greatest evil, but it still has huge problems.

Mainly, it views social perception of gender roles as the problem that needs addressing. Of course we can all support men's freedom to get buttfucked in pink tutus and women's freedom to pursue sports or other counter-gender norms, but these are completely NON-ACTIONABLE goals. Society will continue to think whatever it wants gender norms to be, and the only thing actionable is preventing legal persecution that forces gender norms, which has already been fully achieved.

What makes MR issues real, and feminism irrelevant, is that they are focused entirely on real persecution in law, courts, and police actions... military slavery (draft), family law, poor police investigations and abuse are genuine injustices that make it offensive for feminists to compare against some social disapproval for being assertive. Just be assertive instead of whinning about the lack of encouragement to be so.

frankie_q · 2013-11-07T00:26:16+00:00

Dear punks

yatwa1234 · 2013-11-06T21:30:29+00:00

I'd like to know where the patriarchy is hiding all of these women they've oppressed into demure, gentle, soft spokenness because I don't think I've seen a woman under 40 who isn't a domineering overconfident mannish bitch in the past ten years.

2013-11-07T03:21:47+00:00

feminists won't be happy til we're all a bunch of nutless fags

alexbaileyshc · 2013-11-07T01:17:46+00:00

For every shirt concert there is a shit poster

francoinebekker · 2013-11-07T22:36:54+00:00

Does this suggest that only effeminate or gay men have insecurities or am I misinterpreting, because if it does say that, frankly that's kind of terrible.

OCEANOLEME · 2013-11-06T21:50:36+00:00

this is rather famous, i have it in my history class.

It's tongue in cheek, but they present men as oppressors and women as oppressed. (Which is true, just not in first world countries) It means well, but still has a hint of the idea that women are put down unfairly.

rherlih1 · 2013-11-06T20:59:46+00:00

Are you sure you weren't at an EMO-fest?

Title	Poster I saw at a punk festival. Thoughts (x-posted)
Author	Lilusa
Upvotes	1201
Comments	342
Date	November 6, 2013 7:07 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1q1kt8/poster_i_saw_at_a_punk_festival_thoughts_xposted/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/poster-i-saw-at-a-punk-festival-thoughts-x-posted.1159466 https://theredarchive.com/post/1159466

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