Time waster double standard

poppy_blu · 2018-07-08T16:38:07+00:00

A woman who thinks she can get a man who is emotionally distant and only interested in casual sex to commit to her is being stupid.

A man who thinks he can get a woman who is only interested in being friends and shows no sign of wanting anything more into a relationship is also being stupid.

[deleted] · 2018-07-08T18:10:01+00:00

Unfortunately, thats just how it is. You accept the truth and go on. There is nothing we can do to make people empathize with us, instead of with the woman. But we know the truth. And we go on.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-07-08T16:55:03+00:00

until everyone gets it into their heads that males are held to the standard of the dangerous predator and women are held to the standard of prey, rightfully so, nothing will ever make sense

HeavyJhon · 2018-07-08T18:05:18+00:00

Bitch please, where i live women start calling her suitors "livestock" as a common expression (but in spanish, "ganado").

exit_sandman · 2018-07-08T19:24:21+00:00

Mostly two reasons.

The situation is far less ambiguous in the case of the fuckzone. First, it's usually the man doing the pursuing, therefore he doesn't have nearly the same plausible deniability a woman in a friendzoning situation has. Second, a fuckbuddy-relationship simply isn't a mere friendship (after all, you're intimate with one another), while a friendzone-relationship can potentially still be interpretated as a normal friendship, i.e. there's plausible deniability as well: A guy can't put a dick into a girl and then insist that he only sees her as a platonic friend, a girl on the other hand can very much do this when an orbiter finally musters all his courage and asks her out.
Women are wonderful and feminism. Since friendzoning relationships oftentimes have that unsavory connotation of the women in question being selfish users who take advantage of the poor saps who crush on them (and not without reason), turning the tables on the men in that equation is basically just the usually gynocentric gaslighting going on to distract from the fact that women (a) can very well have the upper hand in their relationships with men and aren't exclusively poor unsuspecting victims and (b) can be assholes too. Also (c) the friendzoning phenomenon also puts the spotlight on a lot of women not being interesting in the eyes of men in their own right, but only as potential partners - another thing that reliably drives feminists up the wall.

[deleted] · 2018-07-08T20:01:50+00:00

Theres a double standard due to societal gender roles of Male hyperagency and Female hypoagency, which ironically both Modern feminism and old Patriarchal standards adhere to in some cases.

That's why the multiple accounts of when people troll r/relationships with the EXACT same scenario, regardless of the details when the OP is female theres more outpouring of support while when they are male more criticism is levied.

This I believe is due to our cross cultural biological desire to be more protective of women and their feelings. This shows itself in maladaptive ways in some cultures where women literally have to be chaperoned and their hypoagency is taken to an extreme. Men are also more disposable, and Manhood itself is precarious requiring more cultural constructs to be achieved. A woman is considered a woman just by birthright, this is why the phrases "man up", "man child", etc exist. Theres literally nothing to "woman up" to. What example of that would even exist? "Womaning up" to having a kid and taking care of children? Anyone trying to shame women today to settle down and have kids will probably face some backlash, while shaming Men to do all sorts of things is fine. Men have to be fine with it. Theres no real male safety net. Being born a man is on the head of a dice role. Society literally cares less about you since genetically you are disposable and therefore your actions have much more weight on what goes on in your life. It's the old trope that Men act and Women are acted upon. Did every culture just happen to adhere to this standard because fuck it, it was a completely random decision?

There are different standards when it comes to Men and Women because they are different and I dont see that ever changing.

This is why Activists trying to get society to care that a Female teacher having sex with a male student is as bad as a Male teacher having sex with a female student, unfortunately, are wasting their time in my opinion.

[deleted] · 2018-07-08T17:20:45+00:00

Men and women alike are emotionally driven, naive, and like to think that they’re individually special enough to change others’ minds. You see people grow out of this, especially beyond college age, but some people never mature. This kind of foolishly sticking around in hopes that someone realizes that you’re a “treasure” worth waiting for is an attitude most prominent in young people. Mature people know what they want and don’t fool around.

wtknight · 2018-07-08T16:44:16+00:00

I don't think that most men agree that a man who attempts to become friends with a woman in order to attract her is being an asshole. Many think that it's a poor strategy, sure, but they don't think he is being some kind of jerk. Many men also don't have a problem with a man "sex zoning" a woman until he starts lying to her just to continue the sex.

On the other hand, many women are going to side with women no matter what the case is.

sea_of_cairo · 2018-07-08T17:19:35+00:00

I think that many women don't realize men's friendship is actually not what it seems, whereas having sex in the first scenario is a much more clear sign of intimacy. If they didn't have sex, I haven't really heard the man portrayed as an asshole.

killallthenarcs · 2018-07-08T18:39:56+00:00

Part of the problem with the comparison you are trying to make is that "friendship" in our society has a far more subtle gradient to it and less boundaries and definition around it than "regular casual sexual partner" or "committed relationship" so when you're looking at a situation where ideas of friendship were being manipulated you're generally going to have to spend more time finding out what actually happened and who is being a manipulative jerk and how much. I mean at one end you might have a guy and a girl who usually go to the movies once a week with a broader friends group, but she's the only one who wants to see the foreign film festival and when he finds out she's going alone he says "oh yes gosh I love foreign films" so they each buy their own festival ticket and go see a series of what he finds to be ten interminably boring films together and then when at the last film he makes an advance based on their deepened "friendship" and she refuses, he throws a tantrum about all the time he invested and that she says she thought they were just friends. At the other end of the spectrum you have "oh you're just such a good friend for letting me use your car and for loaning me $1000 and for helping me bury that body in your backyard here let me give you a very quick hug and an air kiss or two for being such a good friend" The end result tends to be that among people who just aren't interested in launching an inquisition and taking sides (that's be all your friends who aren't horrible relentless gossips and don't have MRA or feminist barrows to push) any sort of vague complaint of abuse of friendship (be it by attempting to get resources or attempting to get sex) tends to get shut down real quick.

goatismycopilot · 2018-07-08T20:16:22+00:00

People are ambiguous with one another when they are getting something out of that ambiguity and they know telling the truth will result in a change where they do not get what they want. People are good at lying to themselves. I do not think except in very specific circumstances men and women can be friends. I am friendly and cordial with all of the husbands and partners of my female friends but they are not my friends.

Willow-girl · 2018-07-08T21:00:58+00:00

I think adults have a responsibility to act in their own best interest. If you (male or female) are not getting what you want out of a relationship, it's up to you to recognize that and decide what you want to do about it.

That said, people should be honest about their intentions ... but realistically, adults ought to realize that sometimes they're not.

lucky_beast · 2018-07-08T19:15:34+00:00

RP: women are children, they can't be held responsible for their actions

BP: women are victims of patriarchy, they can't be held responsible for their actions

Jammerly1 · 2018-07-08T16:43:13+00:00

Because of the Women are Wonderful effect. Because women's intentions are always viewed as good, noble, pure, right, and altruistic; while men are just asshole horndogs whose intentions are evil, ignoble, corrupt, dishonest, and self-centered.

Because society has decreed, and society has been completely re-engineered, to make sure that women get whatever they want, when they want it.

Because women are important to society; and the bottom 80% of men are not important to society.

CatchPhraze · 2018-07-09T03:18:45+00:00

The genders don't really effect that dynamic. If a man or woman is leading someone on to use them then yes they are bad and a user.

Yet in MOST cases the woman isn't using the man, or leading him to believe that the friendship will grow into something else, it's the man who is unwilling to accept her response and thinks it can be negotiated later. Most woman that I know are VERY clear to their male friends that romance isn't going to likely happen. "You're such a good friend" is not code for "and also a man I'm interested in romantically" although some men find it that way.

On the reverse woman who get together with men who make it clear that the sex is no strings attached or a FWB, and don't make false promises in order to keep the agreement are blameless about the woman being upset they couldn't sway the man into commitment.

Men who make it clear they are not going to commit but are open to casual sex are not considered bad people by most sane logical people. Woman who make it clear they are not going to have sex with you because they view you only as a friend are not bad people to sane logical people (Or at least, they shouldn't be)

In either case friendship is still offered and has value. For instance: one of my good friends I'd never get together with although he was interested. I also let him stay with me for a month after the neighbor in his condo burned the whole thing down. I made it clear I was only going to be a friend, and acted like a friend in that we both supported each other and enriched each others lives.

I think that just because someone isn't getting EVERYTHING they want out of a friendship, it doesn't make that friendship one sided if the other party sets reasonable boundaries and makes an equal effort inside of those boundaries to be a good friend.

azngirl7689 · 2018-07-08T17:32:56+00:00

Both men and women agree would agree that the above man is an asshole who wasted her time and used her for sex.

When it comes to sex or physical activity like kissing, it's not unusual to have an underline assumption that a relationship is expected or in the works unless either parties makes it clear that it's not.

Both men and women agree that the above man is an asshole who tried to use friendship to get sex ...he's also at fault for not being upfront about his intentions.

Typically there is more to the story when a man is called an asshole in this situation. Usually men like this gets pity and the woman gets vilified. It's pretty common that the man starts harassing the woman after he realizes he isn't going to get with her to be called an asshole.

tiger1296 · 2018-07-08T16:47:28+00:00

Set boundaries first so these issues are irrelevant.

Anyway, in the second case, the woman is mostly seen as an asshole by men, idk what women think about having safety nets for themselves, but biologically women are supposed to find the best genes possible, so are we really in a place to bitch?

newName543456 · 2018-07-08T22:54:07+00:00

"Women are wonderful" effect.

genethedog · 2018-07-08T23:20:26+00:00

Women's worst fear is rejection. This is due to their highly narcissistis nature. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"

Any 'slight' towards a woman is perceived by that woman and the vast majority of other women as a capital offense.

Narcissist people don't get 'scale'.. they do something called 'splitting'. Essentially it is black and white thinking... On or off... Right or wrong and if you do something"wrong", even if it's just being ride in the slightest way (ie: ignoring them; not paying attention) you are considered to be less than dirt and deserve to fucking die.

There are a number of reasons they think/act like this. They are childish. This is why we don't have words like "woman-child"... It's redundant.

They're also so superficial and shallow (appearance based) that when you slight them or ignore them, you might as well have just called her a fat ugly pig.

The Dunning-Kruger effect. This is the phenomenon where the people of the lowest skill believe that they are the most capable, skilled and smartest people. The only cure for this is to work really hard to acheive something like an education or a skill. The actual intelligent, educated and/or skilled people have doubts. Only the stupid, unskilled and uneducated believe they know and can do anything.

Hypoagency... Women believe that anytime something isn't going how they expected, it's everyone else causing the problem. This allows them to refuse any accountability and protects their fragile ego because they refuse to look inward. It simply hurts too much so they project all their negative thoughts and feelings on to others.

"You gotta do what you gotta do" to a woman means "alright I'll let him fuck me"... To a man it means "I have to get some skills and go to work."

"She pays the debt of life not by what she does but by what she suffers" - Arthur Schopenhauer

If a woman isn't suffering, she needs to create situations where she will suffer or will at least be perceived to be suffering. This is how she gets by... From the sympathy of others. And since they're all pretty much singing the same tune, it really does 'appear' as if all women are suffering victims of the mythical 'patriarchy'.

Women refuse to reflect on history. It's only right now and 5 minutes in front of them. They believe women have been oppressed by men and the point at all the successful men in business and politics as evidence... Completely and willfully ignorant to the fact that it was always men that had to do what they had to do (work) to survive. So of course they ended up in the higher positions. They think men 'made' them stay in the house. No, they did that because they couldn't and most likely didn't want to do the hard dirty work.

That is until men made air conditioned buildings and technology that made working in an office possible. And NOW they want those jobs. Of course. And if you don't give it to them, you're a mysogonist.

It couldn't just be that we don't just let people that haven't earned their place to just walk in a take it. Nothing sexist about it. We don't let the new guy walk in and take the good spots either.

In trucking for example, the new guy gets the shitty old un-air-conditioned truck. Do that to a woman and your sexist. It's a fucking joke.

genethedog · 2018-07-09T02:13:38+00:00

That’s the topic of the debate but the point of the debate is that you hope that once I learned a little something and they just don’t.

They come along and go with the point of the debate is the argument and it’s not. A debate is a goddamn fucking conversation. But so is hows is the weather.

But at least when someone says it’s hot out somebody else goes yeah your right it’s hot.

Debating in forums like this just turned into arguments for the sake of argument. And that is why AWALT.

When the rules are removed and there are no consequences for your actions women act like complete fucking retards.

They knew this thousands of years ago. They wrote books and music and story and religion and all of it tells the story of how we’re in love with the crazy that is women.

And the story of women is “it ain’t good enough”

That’s with the Bible describes demons that’s what science has described cluster B personality disorder my friend calls it unliveable syndrome and I call it hope.

Hope is not belief. Hope is this thing that you want that you’ve been told is so easy AND fulfilling to attain you just have to be a nice guy and love them and they love you back and it will be a happy ending and a happy story.

Then come the facts. Then you have to correlate your help with reality and out of it springs new ideas and new words like hypergamy hypo agency entitlement spoiled unrealistic irrational emotional spring out of it

And then a bunch of other men go “you see it too” and the other ones are like yeah I see it I don’t like generalizing and being sexist. I love it.

KikiYuyu · 2018-07-09T03:04:18+00:00

Whoever strings anyone else along is an asshole, doesn't matter the sex/gender.

Eastuss · 2018-07-09T07:05:33+00:00

Women are entitled to have men not waste their time. I don't get where this is from, but sometimes, when arguing with feminist women online, women who reached out to answer to my comments that weren't addressed to them, eventually they reproach me to waste their time. This is like that...

Same double standards can be seen on, example, /r/sex : men are at fault for not pleasuring women, men are at fault for not having pleasure.

It's always men's fault, it's so much men's fault that feminists created /r/menslib so that men can talk about how much this is their fault and find a "solution".

hiso_hiso · 2018-07-08T16:31:12+00:00

you will have to link examples of normal people claiming the man is an asshole in threads about both situations before i will believe that is what is actually happening. i think this is heavily colored by your interpretations and own feelings.

as presented above, if both are intentionally being ambiguous for their own gain while being aware of the feelings of the person they are stringing along, then both are assholes.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-07-08T16:37:57+00:00

who cares "whos an asshole"? what is this obsession

Jammerly1 · 2018-07-08T16:59:55+00:00

Everyone should just be upfront about how they feel. The women shouldn't hint, she should tell him frankly that she wants a relationship, and the guy should not be ambiguous and say he is not interested in one.

The girl should say she only wants to be friends and the guy should say he only wants to date her.

Since they don't want the same thing they should go their separate ways.

The only time I see women (women online in the comment section, I have not seen this in person) being upset about the 2nd scenerio is when the guy is a "nice guy"--a man who thinks he is nice but become angry when the girl rejects him. I have also seen the reverse with "nice girls." What I have seen is the guy become so upset that he insults the girl and thinks she has to date him because he was her friend.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people becoming friends first before dating, but when one rejects the other they should either go their separate ways or remain friends.

Ultramegasaurus · 2018-07-08T16:55:33+00:00

Ah, the friendzone vs Fuckzone double standard...

Yonderlander · 2018-07-08T18:39:46+00:00

I've never heard of a woman being ambiguous with a male friend that she might want something more. How would that even work? They're just friends.

Edit: The point Im trying to make is that in this situation, she's just being a friend albeit a flirty one, and having a friend is good in itself and not a 'waste of time.'

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nemma88 · 2018-07-08T20:47:21+00:00

Why isn't the second woman an asshole for stinging the guy along?

IDK, I've suggest people are unpleasant for not cutting ties even when they have not been ambiguous. One who cares least has more power and more responsibility.

Havn't seen much of either irl .

[deleted] · 2018-07-08T21:06:57+00:00

Second that.

bonusfruit · 2018-07-08T22:58:38+00:00

There are never enough blue pill people on this sub to argue the other side

SOwED · 2018-07-09T08:12:29+00:00

You reeled me in with that title that really doesn't have anything to do with your post, but you got me to read the whole thing looking for the connection.

Anywho, the man you described in the first case was me for about four years, except for rather than being ambiguous, I was explicit that I didn't want to commit and start a relationship. Sometimes they would be looking for the same casual kind of thing and it would be fine and other times they still stuck around expecting a relationship to happen at some point.

In the latter case, I'm sure she and her friends would call me an asshole, but would society in general call me an asshole?

allweknowisD · 2018-07-08T17:44:58+00:00

These are two entirely different scenarios.

One is sex/romantic relationship and one is a friendship. One is giving all the signs of wanting to enter a more serious relationship ie continuing physical actions. The other is what? Being the man’s friend?

Fail to see how it’s a double standard when it’s two different scenarios. Also fail to see anyone not calling women assholes for deliberately leading men on

rainisthelife · 2018-07-08T23:12:16+00:00

Both men and women would agree that the above man is an asshole who wasted her time and used her for sex

No, men and women do not agree that he’s an asshole for stringing her along. That’s just something you made up to fit in with your “gotcha” attempt.

Just like a man that’s an idiot for not making his intentions clear, the woman is also an idiot for not making hers clear.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2018-07-08T21:58:39+00:00

false, the woman stringing him along by being ambiguous always gets a backlash. what kind of world are you livivng in?

she isnt an asshole because nowhere does it say she used sex as a weapon. she might have developed feeling much later.

she is.

ITouchMyselfAtNight · 2018-07-09T06:09:31+00:00

It is a double standard. But so is slut shaming (high n-count?). Both men & women have to deal with double-standard, but because men & women are different GASP, thee double-standards are different for each.

DXBrigade · 2018-07-09T17:50:06+00:00

Completely different. In the first case,you are already dating or in some kind of semi-relationship, it's normal to have expectation or get your hopes up.

In the second case, you are just friends, not even at first base yet, you can't expect shit here.

Title	Time waster double standard
Author	Pretty_Please_C_My_V
Upvotes	67
Comments	230
Date	July 8, 2018 4:25 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8x2la2/time_waster_double_standard/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/time-waster-double-standard.261613 https://theredarchive.com/post/261613

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