[CMV] Monogamy requires commitment to limit sex to each other, but also reasonable access to sex. If you deny access, you have broken the monogamous agreement just as much as an affair would have.

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What people are talking about is comparing cheating to witholding sex, which is like comparing apples to oranges. The first time cheating happens it's a deal breaker, the latter is only a deal breaker if it's long lasting and consistent. You get me? How can you even compare them in the first place. It would be a fool's errand to try to find similarities like, how deception places cheating apart from witholding so if you withhold and you are deceptive about doing it, it is worse. Heck, you could be not deceptive too about cheating and the person can dump you. I think it should be fine to dump a partner who hasn't tried to remedy a dead bedroom, but you can't compare it to cheating. You shouldn't give cheaters a second chance, but you should give witholders "second" (or third or fourth) chance. But at some point you should stop giving them chances.

[–]shoup882 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When looking at these factors they are definitely very similar, but I think that when you look at it only from this angle it will be very difficult to get some concrete answers about how to deal with the situation if you rely too closely on the similarity to cheating. One must compare it to something far less easily detectable, like someone deciding to let themselves go, or someone who stopped putting in the effort they needed to to make their partner happy. A cheater had one last chance not to make the choice to cheat and didn't back down from it, ultimately sealing the fate of their love and devotion to their partner. A dead bedroom can be "rationalized" by the parties involved and be much harder to detect and lay down the law on I'm sure. At the point where dead bedroom is an issue, the question is how and is it salvageable? Cheating on the other hand , often time people had plenty of opportunities not to cheat but decided to ignore. With the dead bedroom thing, those opportunities to not withold, well, that's really such a different story. You would have to see how many opportunities the person took to not withold and how many times they have withold, and if it's every time, it's a big issue.

Maybe comparing them is still worth while, while being perfectly clear on how they are also very different

[–]shoup882 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, I agree they're still quite different from each other and should be approached differently. They won't have the same solutions.

I'm confused as to why you think a dead bedroom is not easily detectable though. As soon as you let a month or two pass with no explanation, you've created a dead bedroom, and there's an incredibly easy solution: start fucking again while you figure out what's going on.

You describe a cheater as having "one last chance" to avoid destroying their relationship. But the person creating the dead bedroom has done something worse, IMO - they've had a million chances to save their relationship, every day, but are deliberately choosing not to. I'm not sure what you mean by "opportunities to not withhold". Isn't every single day they're together an opportunity to not withhold?

[–]i_have_a_semicolon2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It depends. Is he initiating ? Is he doing "his part"? Or is he just sitting in the couch hoping she changed her mind that night ? Maybe he if turned technology off and got her in bed to cuddle with no expectation or pressure for her to "perform" she could get in the habit of relaxing and releasing herself to him. If he's just given up before even trying every night, then no, she hasn't had any opportunities to withold. It's a two way street so one person has to try. Then you can narrow down the issue from witholding and not initiating to just not initiating, at the very least.

I think the dead bedroom is harder to detect because it is possible to get into severe lows with your sexual libido for weeks on end without realizing it's having a detrimental effect on your partner. In that case, your comfort and happiness is being prioritized over his sexual satisfaction. Maybe he is lying about his sexual dissatisfaction because he was socialized to believe that it's her "body" and therefore he believes he should not pressure her into anything she doesn't want to do sexually? He's afraid of being a bad boyfriend or putting an expectation on his woman to do something he needs because he was raised to believe you shouldn't ask something out of a woman beside her existing and not being an ass to you, and you getting to fuck her was a special privilege she is able to revoke at will at any time ? The thing is, sex being a special, revokable privilege is not mutually exclusive with being a marital duty IMO. It's totally fine for a man to walk away from a woman who has revoked his privilege to her body, isn't that the point of a sexual relationship after all and what does he get from it if not that ? And for the woman, well, she could not realize this at all , which is a major issue I'm sure. Awareness would help tremendously, acceptance too, that having your sexual needs readily and frequently met is part of the relationship duties along with being an emotional support for your partner and other relationship duties.

[–]shoup881 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry, but I have to call bullshit on that. How many hoops does he have to jump through for his wife to pay attention to him sexually? How much rejection does he have to face? How many times can she turn him down before she has to use her fucking words and say what the problem is?

Have you ever been in a dead bedroom situation? Do you have any idea how they manifest? It's rarely that everything is fine and then the man decides not to initiate anymore and they stop doing it. He keeps trying, for a long time before finally giving up. A person can't keep initiating with no response forever.

I don't believe that one half of the couple in a dead bedroom could have no idea that it's happening or that it's having a negative effect on their relationship. The levels of denial for that to happen must be through the roof.

I'm sorry, but no matter how many hypothetical excuses you provide, I just can't see a situation where a woman has created a dead bedroom but isn't doing a tremendously destructive thing to her relationship by placing the utmost value on her own sexual needs. It's in the realm of cheating, no matter how justifiable it may seem.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, I think i covered that clearly in my post that he needs to try which you agree with. If he tries for one month and nothing changes even at all, then it's time to really challenge her and see what's happening. But it's not fair for a man to get in a rut and stop initiating and blame the lack of sex on the women. Not that the latter is more common or just as likely, but also a possibility. If anything you're the one seeming like you're unable to see this from a reasonable perspective. We agreed before witholding sex once isn't a problem, but then when and how does it become a problem? In what context is it a problem? You can't say that it's just "easy" to know if it's a dead bedroom because the sex just drops off, no, that's assuming that's the only thing that changed, there could be other variables. Maybe he has been rejecting sex recently, maybe he's withdrawing and wants her to initiate more, etc. Dead bedrooms are one thing, but we were talking about how you can tell when something's a dead bedroom and it requires some pretty subtle things like, did he try to initiate , or did he check out? Are they talking about the issue honestly ? Etc. No sex doesn't mean dead bedroom woman's not doing her job , it means you have to look deeper.

Denial is not an attractive trait and I'd want to leave anyone who lacked such self awareness and think any man should do the same.

I can see many situations, for instance if she has a medical issue, or if he has a roommate, and if his libido is low enough that he doesn't mind the lack of sex or infreuquency. Maybe she's very apologize about it. Maybe it's temporary. Dead bedrooms are harder to place than just on no sex and no sex alone. You have to know if she's deliberately concealing her true intentions from you, has no intention to fulfill your sexual desire and frankly has no desire to do so either. You see, witholding sex (or not having sex - I.e. the act) is NOT the problem (again, this is why I can't compare it to cheating like you think somehow that just because the act of witholding can't be considered as bad as cheating doesn't make dead bedrooms justifiable or even seem that way). The context is what matters most about it. It's about her feelings towards him. About her love and commitment to him and his happiness. And the importance she places on his happiness and getting his needs met, even if that's not something she wants to do. And if she doesn't want to do it - is it fair for her to ask him to commit solely to her ? No, and women. Will realize this, and realize they can get away with a dead bedroom if they conceal it properly behind a guise where under normal circumstances, that would be acceptable in a given relationship.

Once you begin to understand that I mean maybe you'll see what I'm trying to say. Basically that, dead bedrooms are very subtle to detect. It's obvious when there is a dead bedroom where the woman no longer even conceals her intentions and is just outright with them. But then there is a possibility a woman can hide behind some excuse and promise it will get better but those promises are empty and not backed by any plan for action. They are platitudes to get him to stay because she knows the truth would destroy them.

I do believe those women should just be alone or address their sexual hangups. They shouldn't be dragging a man down into a dead bedroom but they won't be forthright about why they're witholding. Now then they will try to pass themselves off as an innocent victim who really is trying. As a person who has had an involuntary dead bedroom I can tell you - if it's temporary it's really temporary and she's really itching to jump his bone when whatever is preventing her from doing it is gone. If she can find excuse and excuse and never jumps on the chance for him well...It seals the deal.

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Nobody is going to outright disagree with your premise, apart from a couple of instances involving illness, especially after saying "months and years" at a time. But I'll take a crack at something:

Marriage was always an economic union. It has always been about sharing resources and title. Failing to uphold the economic part of the union is, with regards to "marriage", more of a failing than sexual frigidity or infidelity.

Also, I disagree with the following:

Too often, the white knights of this world only see half of the monogamous agreement. The part where you pledge your sex to only the other partner. They completely ignore that with that pledge, you also agree to give reasonable access to yourself for the sexual gratification of your partner.

I can't think of a man, however "beta" who would go into a relationship without the expectation there would be sex. You've created a white night straw man.

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Eh, you can talk about it as a contractual obligation despite the fact that the law doesn't see it that way. But if you are going to in a way that assumes it can or should be seen as a contractual agreement, you wouldn't be bringing morality into it, because morality has zero to do with contracts. You could argue if it rises to the level of fraud there's a morality element, but fraud is also a tort claim whereas breach of contract isn't.

Legally, the courts/laws don't give a flying fuck if you intentionally fail to meet your contractual obligations, they don't think it's "wrong." In fact, if breaching your contractual obligations is ultimately a better deal for you, you probably should breach. The law won't punish you for that, you'll just be liable for breaching, which is usually compensatory damages not expectation damages.

God it's been a while since law school though and I don't practice K law, so I could be leaving stuff out mind you.

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No, it's not wrong. The "legal agreement" is all but dead now, considering how easy it is for women to get out of that agreement.

Marriage is an "agreement" in which the parties expect to experience supreme happiness, joy and fulfillment all the time; and when it inevitably doesn't do that, many believe that they have an absolute right to get out. And society does too- you can end a marriage for any reason or none at all.

If it really were a legal agreement or contract, then a husband could go to court to have that agreement enforced, including either (1) specific performance through an order to the wife to have sex with her husband; or (2) the husband's ability to sue the wife for legal damages for breach of contract. As it is now, the only "remedy" a husband has for a wife's breach is to declare the "agreement" over, and a division/winding up of marital assets.

[–]MissMaude 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I have known a few young people with 0 assets/no children and divorce was anything but "easy."

Marriage is an "agreement" in which the parties expect to experience supreme happiness, joy and fulfillment all the time; and when it inevitably doesn't do that, many believe that they have an absolute right to get out. And society does too- you can end a marriage for any reason or none at all.

This is such bizarre strawmanning. Divorce still comes with a huge stigma in my circles. It's whispered about and very much judged by our parents and our peers.

(1) specific performance through an order to the wife to have sex with her husband;

So a woman is legally required to have sex with her husband... by a court order? I am utterly confused by how this would happen. And suing her for damages? What?? Can I sue my husband for leaving socks around or not saying "I love you"??

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You aren't understanding what I said.

It is very easy for a woman to get out of a marriage. Just see a lawyer, file some papers, wait for legally prescribed time periods, do a few other things, and it's done.

What I described marriage as in my comment is exactly what it is now. It used to be a legal agreement with rights and duties. It is no such thing anymore. Now, it's expected to make the parties "happy" and "fulfilled". Most women divorcing for no fault say "just not happy" and "marriage to him is unfulfilling".

No, a woman is no longer required to have sex, and husbands cannot sue wives for damages. I was saying that to point out the ridiculousness of your statement that marriage is a legal agreement. It is no such thing. If it were a legal agreement, a husband could go to court to have it enforced. He can't. All he can do is declare the marriage to be at an end.

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Marrying is the best way to protect and grow wealth if you're wealthy. for the average person it isn't. but you need to ask at some point, why do women marry up? Wealthy people that marry other wealthy people do grow their wealth, but no matter how much you love someone who isn't wealthy, marriage is a federal contract superseded by no other. You're making a business risk based on love. You don't conflate the law and love.

Why not? Because since marriage is a legal contract, both partners have to uphold the legality of that contract. they better bring as close as 50 50 into the contract and if the other voluntarily leaves the work force, divorce should happen the next day. you can still love that person live with them, but as they say, business is business.

I'd never want to enter into a legal agreement with the person i truly love.

[–]MissMaude3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Edwizzy1021 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MissMaude3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

i mentioned you once and I never talked about you

.

Marrying is the best way to protect and grow wealth if you're wealthy. for the average person it isn't. but you need to ask at some point, why do women marry up? Wealthy people that marry other wealthy people do grow their wealth, but no matter how much you love someone who isn't wealthy, marriage is a federal contract superseded by no other. You're making a business risk based on love. You don't conflate the law and love.

I am sure you understand my confusion.

I'm pointing out it's a foolhardy idea that you enter a contract in which you don't both stand to gain.

Statistics show both people do gain when they get married financially as well as years of life, and reported satisfaction.

I stay with my partner because I love her not because I'm obligated to

This is such a tired claim. Married people stay married because they love each other. We still choose each other everyday. Not being married doesn't make the relationship based less on obligation than marriage does.

[–]Edwizzy1021 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I spologize for that! I didn't mean you. Id never say such thing about someone personally. I just asked when you said it was pooe people talk out of confusion. On my side we're millionares but were foreign and marriage is socially enforced in our culture. As a us immigrant i'm put off about the lack of that yet the social expection enforced.

My parents are married. They own a multi million dollar business after immigrating here dirt poor. Heres the thing, where we are from (africa) marriage is socially enforced for the woman and man and in terms of social class. They married dirt poor and grew togethet. Just the other day my father told me that marriage isnt just about love. What can the other person bring to the table. Are you headed the same direction in terms of aspirations? Etc. In my opinion, married or not my parents would have still loved each other as they still do. They fought when they dated and now and the only thing marriage did was just reinforce our judeo christian values

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[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Just break up and THEN go fuck other people. Or do what I do and ask for an open relationship.

This is not hard. If you agree to be monogamous with someone, your relationship falls into a sexual rut and you go and fuck someone else without talking about, it's still fucking cheating. Of course it is. It's just bullshit to pretend otherwise and avoiding taking responsibility for yourself. It's so rich to turn around and pin cheating on someone else, ''You didn't do everything I want, so I cheated! It's your fault!''

Only douchebags think like this. Men and women, both.

People's sexuality waxes and wanes -- in a long term relationship, you're going to have some ''off'' times. That's kind of just how it is. If you can't have ''off'' times without cheating, don't get into monogamous relationships.

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Nah, that's your wish

Exactly how many divorces have you experienced up close and personal?

I'm not talking hypotheticals here.

Do you honestly think that a woman not getting to be with her children for half of the time for their entire childhood will really make her happier? Do you think she will be happier living with less money and more financial uncertainty?

She won't do what, let herself be raped by her partner who demands sex when she doesn't want it, without any care or regard for her needs and wants?

Ah, yes, the 'my body; your problem' crowd.

The man's needs are secondary to the woman's. Of course. That should be obvious.

Being subjected to sex I don't want is not putting myself first, so I won't do it.

So don't be surprised when your partner looks to get their needs fulfilled by someone who actually cares about them.

[–]usernameras 1 point1 point1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Exactly how many divorces have you experienced up close and p personal?

A family friend and a coworker. Friend lives in her own property and is enjoying her newfound spinster life while cheater husband lost his job. No idea about coworker's husband but she lives in her own property too and is very happy with her dog.

Do you honestly think that a woman not getting to be with her children for half of the time for their entire childhood will really make her happier?

Depends on the woman. Lots of women do not want children, can't stand them, find them insufferable, and only end up having them because they are pressured so by their partners and made to be monsters if they speak up and say they don't want to have children, ever.

Do you think she will be happier living with less money and more financial uncertainty?

HAHAHAHAHA

What kind of shithole do you come from? Newsflash women have good jobs too. My own job is plenty enough for me to sustain a comfortable single life. Do you specifically seek out poor, uneducated, lazy women who don't want to work for a living so that you can prey on them?

my body; your problem

Indeed. I don't have another body to spare, unfortunately, so my body takes priority.

So don't be surprised when your partner looks to get their needs fulfilled by someone who actually cares about them.

Oh I have already encouraged my partner to break off the relationship immediately should he ever find himself to be unhappy with me and to consider himself free to go be with someone else without problem, and I mean it. I'll do fine. I like being alone. Oddly enough he always answers he's perfectly happy with me and wants to be with no one else, every time.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

A family friend and a coworker. Friend lives in her own property and is enjoying her newfound spinster life while cheater husband lost his job. No idea about coworker's husband but she lives in her own property too and is very happy with her dog.

Oh wow! Two whole examples? Neither of which have a family (as the vast majority of the population does)?

I take it back - you must be an expert! /s

Lots of women do not want children, can't stand them, find them insufferable, and only end up having them because they are pressured so by their partners and made to be monsters if they speak up and say they don't want to have children, ever.

According to the latest census and the CDC, 9 out of 10 women who can have children will have them by the time their fertility window closes.

Just like a bloop to argue using extreme outlier cases.

And if divorce is so easy and makes women so happy, why are they forcing themselves to have children? Why aren't they choosing to marry one of the many men who don't want to have children?

Newsflash women have good jobs too. My own job is plenty enough for me to sustain a comfortable single life.

So, I suppose all those single moms talking about how hard it is to be a single parent (including the iconic Sheryl Sandberg) should just STFU. They have good jobs - what's the problem?

Do you specifically seek out poor, uneducated women who don't want to work for a living so that you can prey on them?

Almost everyone agrees that a family takes two incomes these days. Poor, uneducated women aren't the only ones feeling financial stress.

I don't have another body to spare, unfortunately, so my body takes priority.

Such selflessness in the face of one's wedding vows! Such commitment to your marriage! /s

Oddly enough he always answers he's perfectly happy with me and wants to be with no one else, every time. Amazing how real men are different from you online terps!

TIL 'real men' are sooooo romantic that they'll happily be incel for the rest of their lives before leaving the woman they love.

Cause you are still talking about deadbedrooms, right? You didn't narcissistically change the subject to brag about how awesome you and your 'real man' of a boyfriend are, right?

[–]usernameras 1 point1 point1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh wow! Two whole examples?

That's more than your own life example which you keep bringing up. :)

Neither of which have a family

Where did I say that?

you must be an expert!

Just stating the reality I know, which is not like yours, since you act like you're an expert on women and divorces here.

According to the latest census and the CDC, 9 out of 10 women who can have children will have them by the time their fertility window closes

http://www.census.gov/hhes/fertility/data/cps/2014.html

Percent Childless on ALL WOMEN 15 to 50 years old: 42.4 percent. Table 3, all women by race.

Got a source for your " 9 out of 10" claim? Because the data is telling a different story.

Just like a terp to claim bullshit and pull out of his ass a lot of lies about reality.

And if divorce is so easy and makes women so happy, why are they forcing themselves to have children?

Ever been over at r/childfree and seen how society still pressures women to have children no matter whether they want them or not?

Why aren't they choosing to marry one of the many men who don't want to have children?

Again, ever been to r/childfree and seen how many of the ladies there lament not finding a loyal, trustworthy man who doesn't want to have children?

So, I suppose all those single moms talking about how hard it is to be a single parent

Single life =/= single parent, childfree women are single too. Unless the father is dead or in prison or has chosen to opt out of his parent role, divorced women aren't necessarily single parents.

Almost everyone agrees that a family takes two incomes these days. Poor, uneducated women aren't the only ones feeling financial stress.

They certainly are feeling it more than well-off, educated women who at least don't have to worry about themselves and can support themselves fine. A family of two childfree people is a family too. Children do require different consideration but I think one shouldn't have children with a man who wants more sex one can give, and thinks it's ok to cheat if his wife cares for herself and her well-being.

Such selflessness in the face of one's wedding vows! Such commitment to your marriage! /s

What are you complaining about? I'm applying redpill truth. You complaining about the redpill now?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3wzbpl/being_redpill_is_about_putting_yourself_first/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/5k9455/pay_yourself_first_love_yourself_first_put/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2bmrtf/focus_on_you_first_and_second_and_third_andblah/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3crywp/12_steps_to_self_care_a_redpill_perspective/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2ybmk1/top_quotes_from_redpill_books_ive_read/

Wise and sound advice, I mean it. That's why I applied it to myself.

TIL 'real men' are sooooo romantic that they'll happily be incel for the rest of their lives before leaving the woman they love

So much projection there, lol. :) VR porn can't come soon enough.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

That's more than your own life example which you keep bringing up. :)

Most of my close friends have gone through divorce at this point. I've seen way more than I would ever have wanted to see.

And these are all folks in the 'safe' demographic - married mid-twenties or later, professional, MC or UMC, college or graduate degrees, etc. They aren't your stereotypical divorcees.

Where did I say that?

One is a spinster, one has a dog. The former would, by definition, not have children; the latter, well, interesting that you would mention how she is happy with her dog but nothing about her having to raise her kids.

Just like a terp to claim bullshit and pull out of his ass a lot of lies about reality.

Alright, maybe you can do the math for me. Something isn't adding up.

From a Time article on the subject:

Nearly half of women between the ages of 15 and 44 did not have kids in 2014, up from 46.5% in 2012 to 47.6% in 2014, according to new data from the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey. The figure is the highest percentage since the Census Bureau started measuring it in 1976.

Seems to back up your claim, right?

But wait:

In the group between 30 and 34, 28.9% were childless, up from 28.2% in 2012 but below an all-time high of 29.7% in 2010.

So, once women hit their thirties, the number of childfree women drops to 29.7%. That doesn't seem to conform to your numbers, now, does it? Why is that?

Let's keep looking, from the table you provided:

Line 17, Women 40-44 (presuming that 44 is a reasonable age to expect a woman to become completely infertile) - 15.3% childfree. Line 18 shows an interesting anomaly, as the numbers actually go up to 16.7%, but we're still talking quite the minority.

Now, according to WomensHealth.gov:

About 10 percent of women (6.1 million) in the United States ages 15-44 have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

According to The American Society for Reproductive Medicine:

In a survey of married women, the CDC found that 1.5 million women in the US (6%) are infertile

So, 9 out of 10 looks to be fairly generous, does it not?

I don't know which I find more laughable - your completely asinine, reactionary, and blindly outraged accusation that I "claim bullshit and pull out of his ass a lot of lies about reality", or the fact that you can't even read the statistics that you provide.

You might want to watch out for the stones you throw from your glass house.

Ever been over at r/childfree and seen how society still pressures women to have children no matter whether they want them or not?

I thought women were strong and independent? What happened? And why is that pressure sufficient to make women the victims here but the same pressure would make men the perps?

Again, ever been to r/childfree and seen how many of the ladies there lament not finding a loyal, trustworthy man who doesn't want to have children?

I don't substitute reading shit online for what I see IRL. Real life observation > online anecdotes.

For the record, I apply the same standard to RP and everything else online that isn't hard data (and even then I'm careful).

Unless the father is dead or in prison or has chosen to opt out of his parent role, divorced women aren't necessarily single parents.

Right. Just because parents share custody doesn't mean they share resources. It's still two single people raising the common children. They both have to try to accomplish the same parental goals, only with much fewer resources.

A family of two childfree people is a family too.

Let's check the dictionary, shall we? It defines a family as:

a group consisting of parents and children living together in a household.

You are free to make up whatever definitions you want, but no one is obligated to abide by whatever arbitrary shit you pull out of your ass.

but I think one shouldn't have children with a man who wants more sex one can give

Which probably eliminates 99% of men, if what one can give is no sex (or once a month or less, which is the standard marriage counselors use for describing a sexless marriage).

You complaining about the redpill now?

I would hold any man who cheats on his willing and available wife 'just because he feels like it' in just as much contempt as a woman who refuses to have sex with her desiring husband 'just because she doesn't want to anymore.'

But most RPers don't respect men who cheat 'just 'cause', whereas many women will defend a woman's right to cut off sex from her husband for the same reason.

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]usernameras 1 point1 point1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If voluntary sex with your husband when you're not in the mood is rape

I don't know about you, but I firmly believe if you're not in the mood then you should communicate so. Say "I don't want to. Not now, not like this," whatever. Unless you have reason to fear for your safety, in which case you should GTFO asap, be explicit and direct. Expect your husband to respect that communication. If he doesn't, and forces you to sex you don't want anyway, then yes, that's rape.

It's not false imprisonment if a man chooses to stay in the house when he would rather not, nor is it rape if a woman chooses to have sex when she would rather not

Why would she choose to have sex when she would rather not though? I don't understand people who do this. If you don't want to have sex, then don't have sex. Forcing yourself to have sex you don't want does nothing but build hatred and resentment and it makes you feel like shit. A husband who expects me to have sex anyway when I don't want to, knowing it makes me feel like shit is a husband who doesn't love me, and I don't want to be with a man who doesn't love me.

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If you want spousal rape to be legal you are free to live in some third world country where this is legal, but we've introduced laws here so that entitled husbands can't just have sex with their wives against their will.

the partner that is denying sex is in violation of the monogamous agreement.

Or the partner that doesn't put in the necessary effort to be sexually attractive should reflect on why their partner doesn't want to sleep with them anymore instead of throwing a "but you have to sleep with me" hissy fit.

They completely ignore that with that pledge, you also agree to give reasonable access to yourself for the sexual gratification of your partner.

You've had a hard day at work and only want to sleep.

But your wife wants to fuck your ass for an hour with her thick strap-on because that's just what she needs in order to cum.

Now explain why she shouldn't be allowed to have sex with you, but she should give her body to you anytime you are too lazy for a wank.

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isn't there some middle ground between not having sex at all and being emotionally distraught at having sex?

Sometimes there isn't. When I am in a deep, depressive state, I don't want anyone to touch me. The tiredness is pretty bad, too -- I struggle to do basic shit like brush my teeth, eat, sleep. It's not just sex, you know?

I just tend to be thinking about killing myself and anything that interrupts my need to be thinking about killing myself makes me feel incredibly anxious and makes me want to kill myself even more.

And I have an extremely high libido and will have sex like 2-6 times a day otherwise, if I have a willing partner. But yeah, sometimes there's a lull and there's nothing I can really do but ride it out or up my meds to make it temporarily better (but this obliterates my libido, anyway Any higher dosage than I'm currently on and I do not want anyone to touch me, it all feels awful etc).

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[–]GinSmokeLies 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with you.

There's a whole world of gray area between not having sex ever (or only having it a few times a year) and having sex whenever and however the HL partner wants with no regard to the other partner's feelings. And yet these conversations always devolve into one of those two extremes.

I'm of the opinion that if you're asking a person to commit solely to you sexually and emotionally, then you need to make sure the relationship is sexually and emotionally fulfilling (within reason.) To say they can't sleep with anyone else and then refuse to sleep with them is cruel.

I've been the LL partner due to some hormonal problems. I went through a period of four or five months where I didn't want sex and dreaded having it. But I still did it once or twice a week, because I love my boyfriend, and the way I was feeling wasn't his fault.

By the same token though, he was patient with me during that time, he never pressured me or made me feel guilty. I knew my no would be respected if I said it, which made me a lot more inclined to say yes out of respect and care for him.

Ultimately I think if you can't make yourself do it at least once a week for your partner's sake, your relationship has issues and you either need to work on yourself, break up or allow them to get their needs met elsewhere. (And no, I'm not saying once a week = satisfactory sex life, I'm saying it's a BARE MINIMUM while you work out your issues, with the ultimate goal being more frequent sex.)

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