CMV: the incessant hand-wringing over "sexual coercion" is unwarranted

Grave_Heresy · 2020-10-24T19:49:10+00:00

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PurplePlatypusBear20 · 2020-10-25T06:28:24+00:00

Would you call this coercion?

I was 16 and he was 18. He asked me if we could chill at his house and I asserted several times that I couldn't because I didn't know him that well. After our first date which actually went well, he asked if we could cuddle and I said "No. I just don't think I'm comfortable with that." He said in response "Okay, but cuddling makes my back better."

I thought he got it, and then he asked again. I said "No, I'm not ready."

Flash forward to our second date he gets even more touchy. We start out holding hands, but then I'm in the back of his car with him caressing my thigh. I'm looking towards the window, wanting to leave when he turns my head and kisses me. It was kind of consensual though because I kissed back, because I thought that was what I was supposed to do.

I stepped out of the car, got in the front, and told him to drive me home. He obliged. As he dropped me off at my house, he hugged me, then he put his hands on my shoulders and even as I tried to squirm away he kissed me again.

When I broke up with him I confronted him about being pushy. He told me I made him feel worthless. He told me that I was the one taking things too fast. And I felt so guilty about leading him on that when he started acting like we were dating again I just played along.

YveisGrey · 2020-10-24T23:06:00+00:00

It’s weird to enjoy sex from someone who you know doesn’t want it with you. You can’t really gloss over the fact. Sex is different from most acts in that there is an intimacy involved and an expectation of mutual enjoyment and desire. Most normal people can’t even enjoy affection from another person if they know that person doesn’t actually desire them. Just like most people wouldn’t pay someone to pretend to be their friend. It’s a little desperate and sad also why would you want someone who doesn’t like you to pretend they like you? Do you not care about their feelings as far as the friendship goes? Comparing intimate/emotional relations with something like smoking is a very weak red herring imo. You damn well know there is a difference between paying someone to mow your lawn and paying someone to be your best friends, your girlfriend or for sex. It’s a little rapey imo to actually be able to enjoy sex with someone who doesn’t want it the very thought of their lack of desire should be a turn off.

LittyKitsune · 2020-10-24T19:22:20+00:00

I think what sets off alarms is the idea of someone getting comfortable having sex with a partner who has already clearly expressed that they're not going to like it. Once a person can find enjoyment from that, it's seen as a red flag for worse things to happen.

Swap out the actions for something like "quit smoking or else this relationship is over" and few would consider it problematic.

What is a concerning progression from giving a partner an ultimatum over smoking? Making them eat veggies?

Sid_Insidious · 2020-10-24T20:22:41+00:00

Feminism says: She can shut down the sex and intimacy (REASONS HER OWN) and the man, if he's a good man, will "be there for her". Other people, even women, say that if sexual intimacy goes bye bye then so does the relationship. I know one guy who prefaces his relationships with "If the sex stops, we're done." Surprisingly, he reports that most women he meets are *thrilled* with that deal!

A man retaliating when a woman can't or won't have sex anymore isn't great, certainly. And it's not great if one partner gains 150 pounds (which they can control) or worse - gets an illness or medication that thwarts sex. But what about the person being denied healthy intimacy? That's hard for them too.

I say couples should have "sex clauses" going in. Examples:

If the sex stops, he can leave or perhaps have an open relationship
If he gains 200 pounds, she can leave, or have an open relationship.
If either partner becomes incapable of sex, an open relationship is an option.

It's very noble you could say if a person decides to become celibate because their partner has to or wishes to. But as one man I know succinctly put it:

I signed up for monogamy, not celibacy.

rivertorain- · 2020-10-24T19:15:38+00:00

Why should that be considered non-consensual?

Because all ultimatums are manipulation and are frankly stupid.

You can't make someone change against their will. You can only accept reality. Assume they're never going to change and act accordingly. If you can't love them, then leave.

FloraFit · 2020-10-25T21:10:45+00:00

she may not enjoy the sex, she may not be happy about having sex

What sort of man gets off fucking someone clearly in misery? Y’all some sociopaths.

imnotfeelingsogood69 · 2020-10-25T19:18:54+00:00

I think it’s okay to ask for certain issues to be addressed but if you are trying to force it, it’s messed up.

For example if a woman stops having sex you could tell her that in order to continue the relationship she needs to be starting the steps that need to be taken to fix that issue such as couples therapy/personal therapy/medical treatment. But if you just say “you need to fuck me more or I’m leaving you” you are basically forcing her to choose between having sex when she doesn’t want to or losing her relationship.

jdobrila · 2020-10-24T19:31:40+00:00

Eh if you're not satisfied with any aspect of a partner the best thing to do is discard immediately

abysmalworm · 2020-10-25T01:15:12+00:00

“Quit smoking” is asking your partner to stop an unhealthy and harmful behavior; the partner will ultimately be benefited if they stop smoking. “Have sex with me or I’ll leave you” is asking your partner to have sex with you when they don’t want it and won’t enjoy it. It’s a recipe for disaster, hurt, and abuse of power. Having sex with someone who doesn’t want it is gross regardless. At that point, just leave and date someone who wants to have sex. seriously.

imnotfeelingsogood69 · 2020-10-26T01:50:39+00:00

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Dora_Bowl · 2020-10-24T19:36:09+00:00

When people talk about sexual coercion they are usually referring to things like bosses, professors or landlords using their position to gain sexual favors from people, not simply giving an ultimatum to end a relationship.

NarniaFox · 2020-10-24T23:41:02+00:00

The attitude towards consent is changing and I get that a lot of men aren't happy about it as it puts them into position where they can't use the tools to get sex that they're used to. A bit off-topic but I think it tells a lot about a person they can have sex knowing that their partner isn't into it. Not a good sign at all.

There's a legal definition of consent and it usually includes "freely/voluntarily given" part and it still doesn't include most of the types of sexual coercion happening in couples.

And there's ethics and morals that usually at least partially change faster than it is reflected in the law. And it's considered morally bad to pressure your partner to have sex with you and it isn't an accepted kind of behavior. As I've written in our previous discussion, relationships are meant to be safe and comfortable for all participants. If there are threats and manipulation these things go to hell and it indicates than one puts their needs higher than their partners and doesnt care enough about their partners well-being.

It doesn't mean though that one must tolerate relationships where their needs aren't met. It means that a way to communicate it should be different as well as the goal of communicating it.

"My needs aren't met and I'm considering leaving this relationship"

And

"You do this or I'll dump you"

Are different in their core. The goal of the first one is to inform your partner and communicate your needs. The second is a threat and corners your partner in your demands.

Impressive-Spot-1191 · 2020-10-24T22:00:00+00:00

would rather just bail than present an ultimatum

i never play into ultimatums on principle so i would never present one

if she wants to fuck afterwards gr8

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-24T19:13:35+00:00

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thenorthremerbers · 2020-10-26T01:48:30+00:00

Asking someone to stop smoking or lose weight or you'll leave them (though both manipulative) are NOT the same as allowing them to use your body for their own jollies when you're not into it. Or letting someone put a body part of theirs INSIDE a body part of yours without you being really into it. Think of it this way- if you are a hetrosexual man would you allow another man to bugger you for his own gratification just because he gives you an ultimatum, even someone you REALLY care about but the act doesn't arouse you and may even hurt you physically or mentally??? Same thing in my book

LooseIndication · 2020-10-24T19:51:39+00:00

If it is voluntary, it is always consensual.

If the man stays on a sexless relationship, that's also consensual.

That's why marriage is a crime. It establishes obligations after consensus is lost.

BIGFACTS98 · 2020-10-24T20:02:44+00:00

It’s because it’s about power and men using sex as a means of power is not as acceptable as women doing it

Women employ this kind of sexual power all the time in relationships by withholding sex for resources

While if a man withholds resources for sex it’s deemed as coercion

Because it’s about power, not fairness

It doesn’t mesh well with the feminist idea that men shouldn’t value women for sex

Because feminists think that any man valuing any woman primarily sexually is misogynistic, explicitly stating that you value sex in an exchange can be seen as nothing other than immoral and coercive

The problem is that men do value sex, much to feminist chagrin and therefore should not be given negative moral estimations for making decisions based on this value

The last great hypocrisy is that women willingly employ sex as means of getting resources from men all the time when they want it but when a man is aware that she is doing this and so plays by those terms, he is somehow in the wrong.

Atlas__B__Shruggin · 2020-10-24T22:54:21+00:00

Say a man in a sexless relationship issues an ultimatum to his partner that he will end things if there is no sex, and as a result of that his agrees to sex. Why should that be considered non-consensual?

its not? where is it "considered nonconsensual" except for in a few mentally ill tumblr feminists fever dreams

duffmanhb · 2020-10-24T22:25:57+00:00

I mean, I've never really experienced a woman NOT putting out when I want it. Some people act like it's this massive chore. Most women realize it's just like 10 minutes taking one for the team... I mean, they love you right? Wouldn't you do something you don't necessarily want to do for 10 minutes if they asked? Shit, I watched the whole LotR series when I didn't want to, and that's half a day -- What's 10 minutes? I've never even been with a chick who wont let me roll her over middle of the night, have fun, then go back to sleep.

Laytheblameonluck · 2020-10-25T02:51:52+00:00

Say a man in a sexless relationship issues an ultimatum to his partner that he will end things if there is no sex, and as a result of that agrees to sex.

That is that guy being honest that the relationship isn't working out.

The guy is not forcing her to have sex, she can leave the relationship.

In reality what often happens is such ultimatum's remove the relationship from being the reason why the girl doesn't want sex.

Because after NRE fades, the girl tries to hide her loss of desire for the sake of the relationship.

However with the relationship no longer being an excuse, the girl needs to decide if she will try working at having a new form of enjoyable sex with him, called LTR sex, or if she should leave and find someone else to have NRE sex with.

It's entirely her choice.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-24T23:15:34+00:00

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nemporisso · 2020-10-24T19:11:56+00:00

Every decision is made on a "Sophie's choice" spectrum. I think the line depends on your personal ethics.

Similar to how top athletes choose to do PEDs. Some argue it's not really a choice as much as it's something they feel is necessary to maintain their careers. I don't personally agree

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-24T19:49:09+00:00

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Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-24T19:55:16+00:00

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Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-24T20:37:24+00:00

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Copperstoner · 2020-10-25T07:29:32+00:00

I know the term “sexual coercion” only in the context of professional or educational settings. And there it makes sense.

It’s not okay to pry on a secretary knowing fully that she can’t evade or say something against you because you are here superior.

It’s not okay if the professor has a “private consultation” with her student in which she offers him a better grade if he fucks her.

etc.

But I honestly have never heard it in the context of normal relationships.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-25T00:55:51+00:00

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WilliamWyattD · 2020-10-25T06:13:07+00:00

I think you are conflating a whole bunch of issues.

Yes, the modern left and feminism have gone insane over what constitutes consent. That needs to be solved.

But you are also talking about pressuring for consensual sex that is not being freely offered. This is a different issue.

Nobody really should want sex in exchange for anything other than sex. Sex that is offered because sex is desired back. That should be the goal. Walk away from anything else.

It's in both genders' interest to try to create a culture that fosters meaningful and healthy relationships between men and women where both partners want sex. I do think that each gender has different issues that make this increasingly difficulty. I never blame women for feeling how they do. I only blame them for not being willing to discuss it honestly, though with how many men behave, I also understand some of the female reticence to do so.

angels-fan · 2020-10-25T16:02:01+00:00

Idk why anyone would even bother with an ultimatum?

So, what now? She starfishes a few times and then goes back to her frigid self??

Just leave if you're unhappy.

Nobody EVER changed their libido because someone threatened to leave.

Either that or sign up to MRP and become a man she wants to fuck.

caveatemptor18 · 2020-10-25T02:11:13+00:00

Marriage IS a daily transaction, sometimes consensual and sometimes not.

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Grave_Heresy · 2020-10-25T02:24:58+00:00

No man in his right mind should ever agree to an LTR for exactly this reason. People want the benefits of having you all to themselves but then have the audacity to only care about their own sexual needs (Yours be damned). Why can they do this? Because you've already committed and they feel free to f-ck you over. Screw that!

GYOW:

No long-term relationships
No cohabitation
No marriage

Best way to do it. Women have too many sexual experiences to not get bored within a month of linking up. When that happens they stop giving a damn about you. So it's best to show her the door after 60 days and bring in a new one.

Yonderlander · 2020-10-25T06:37:19+00:00

Agree, and I hate it when ppl on reddit equate coercion with rape. Its not rape, you coerced them into consenting. Shitty behaviour but not rape because they did consent. And I hate when people in relationships get too lazy to have sex, I'm a woman who has dealt with that and it sucks.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2020-10-25T11:04:22+00:00

> Why should that be considered non-consensual?

It is not. There was an agreement.

Title	CMV: the incessant hand-wringing over "sexual coercion" is unwarranted
Author	imnotfeelingsogood69
Upvotes	29
Comments	243
Date	October 24, 2020 7:07 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/jhemyb/cmv_the_incessant_handwringing_over_sexual/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-incessant-hand-wringing-over-sexual.321090 https://theredarchive.com/post/321090

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