Menslib being menslib

TNine227 · 2024-07-29T18:39:51+00:00

Weird how claiming that 40% of accusations are false is a big deal, but claiming that only 2% of accusations are false is just fine. Like, one of those numbers is significantly better backed by statistics, but it doesn’t matter if lies hurt men, nobody cares about that.

Clockw0rk · 2024-07-29T18:25:56+00:00

Hilarious and predictable that it's already being heavily moderated and the biased mods are pleading with users to buy into the narrative.

Remember men, your feelings are valid... unless women have a problem with them.

MonkeyCartridge · 2024-07-29T18:52:55+00:00

I almost have to check out of those conversations.

After having BEEN falsely accused, it's like "sorry to hear that but it is rare and almost never happens."

Thanks. In cured.

OddSeraph · 2024-07-29T19:02:18+00:00

Isn't saying that only a certain amount of accusations are proven to be false disingenuous because like the majority of sexual assault (which would include false claims) go unreported anyways (meaning no one would find it odd that the false accuser isn't taking this to the police) and because the false accuser has little if anything to lose in that scenario.

Also the stat they go around parroting with false accusations only covers accusations that were without a shadow of a doubt proven to be false in court. Juries and judges give terrible verdicts all the time. And this doesn't include things such as mistrials or people pleading guilty even though they're innocent.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-07-29T19:03:12+00:00

I don't even have to watch the video. I see the title. I open it and scroll through the sections to see what topics it covers. It all completely misses the point.

It doesn't matter how common false accusations really are. It doesn't fucking matter.

Abusers lie. They socially isolate their victims, so there can be no witnesses to what goes on in the relationship, and make sure they are the only ones who get to control how the situation is perceived by the rest of the world. What they can't hide, they justify by framing as a response to their partner's untrustworthiness, incompetence, or some fabricated tale of harm the victim did to the abuser in the past that they're paying for. When they're getting found out, they try to make themselves the victim, acting out of self-defense or justice, because the only socially acceptable way to justify aggression is to convince that it's in response to the other being aggressive first. It doesn't matter if the abuser is man or woman. This is how abuse must necessarily function, because without those measures of isolation and lying, abusers cannot get away with what they do.

So to give a woman's accusations against a man more social and legal power than the reverse based solely on gender can only be justified by a claim that either female abusers don't exist/are rare or male victims don't matter. The "false accusations are rare" argument is basically the "female abusers are rare" argument, which is undeniably gender essentialist. It is not even trying to hide that the statement is essentially saying "Women are morally superior beings to men".

Telling a man in a situation with a female abuser that false accusations are rare will do absolutely fuck all to sooth his anxieties, because there is zero reason for him to believe that if he tries to leave or defend himself that his abuser doesn't have the capacity to be one of those false accusers.

I kept audio recordings of almost every interaction I had with my abusive ex for roughly 3 years around the time we separated, and still sometimes record to this day, to protect myself in case she tries to falsely accuse me. She lied about me and our relationship consistently to people for 20 years, and the first time we talked to a lawyer together about divorce, she told egregious lies about me. She never accused me of rape or violence. But I would have to be an idiot not to worry that she could. I will have to worry that she could for the rest of my life. And anybody who downplays false accusations simply doesn't have a shred of empathy for people like me.

wylaaa · 2024-07-29T20:06:23+00:00

Since when does an advocacy group try this hard to dismiss the concerns of the group they're supposedly advocating for?

Kuato2012 · 2024-07-29T19:16:22+00:00

Cui bono? It's awfully peculiar that minimizing the problem of false accusations is so important to them, considering that it's a predominantly male-affecting issue.

This isn't the first time that 'slib has leaned hard into false accusation denialism with the full support of their mod team, either. Several of us pointed out their methodological flaws the last time they did a craptastic analysis of false accusation data, and mass censorship predictably ensued.

It's almost as if their sub has nothing to do with men's liberation, is only interested in pushing feminist ideology, doesn't give one shit about concepts like truth or justice, and has a suspicious amount of overlap with TwoX and WvP... 🤔

StarZax · 2024-07-29T20:21:52+00:00

Remember guys, you can't talk about men's rights if you forget to mention that women are wonderful

And when women talk about their stuff, you can't talk about yours, but they can deny your need for expression (the documentary about black men for example, the shelter for men in Naples, so on and so forth ...)

Aren't they the same who are always saying that we should get out of gender roles ? This need to over-protect any woman always seemed hypocritical to me. I would have more respect for them if they owned the fact that they inherited this role and belief and the fact that they were brainwashed thinking that they will always pass after women because of their sex. That would have, at the very least, the merit to be coherent

triple_skyfall · 2024-07-29T20:47:03+00:00

This exact same line of thinking can apply to violence against women. 90% of murder victims are men, so how common is violence against women, really?

A very, very small percentage of the population suffers from the extremely rare disease Progeria. I guess we should stop caring about people who suffer from Progeria because Covid is much more common.

NonbinaryYolo · 2024-07-29T22:06:41+00:00

The cherry on top here is the pinned mod comment questioning the emotional state of anyone disagreeing. SUCH a progressive sub eh? Men should talk about their emotions, but also... they should do that somewhere else... Very progressive, yes yes.

eldred2 · 2024-07-29T20:22:39+00:00

Should we allow FGM, since it's uncommon, too?

TheSpaceDuck · 2024-07-29T21:54:16+00:00

The feminist arguments used in this particular topic betray an enormous double standard: when it comes to how many women are sexually assaulted, we use victim surveys rather than police numbers where the rape is proven. When it comes to how many men are falsely accused, we do exactly the opposite and take police numbers as the actual number of men being falsely accused.

That's where claims like "1 in 30 women will be sexually assaulted in UK every year" come from, rather than "1 in 500" if we counted only rapes legally proven (like we do with men falsely accused).

Either we use only proven cases and say that only 2% of accusations are false but also that "1 in 500 women are assaulted every year", not "1 in 30" or we keep the latter claim but also count false accusations from other sources like victim surveys, investigations, etc.

Even if we did this and used only police numbers for both cases, not just when men are falsely accused, the numbers wouldn't still be close to being fair because:

1 - The justice system is heavily biased against men, even 6 times higher bias than the already high racial bias, and it's even worse when it comes to sexual crimes.

2 - It's much harder to prove a negative than a positive. This is why innocent until proven guilty exists and why the burden of proof is on the accuser and not the defender. Legally, a "false accusation" is one that has been proven to be false. Intentionally false. Not an accusation that hasn't been proven true. Meaning the number of false accusations that will ever get legally classified as such will be extremely low. Most will be classified as "unproven", or worse: guilty. And considering that an accuser can need more evidence to get an innocent man out than she did to get him jailed I'm afraid the number that gets misclassified as guilty might not be as low as it should.

However that doesn't even matter, because we don't use police numbers for both cases. We use police numbers for our claims of how many accusations are false (while shunning the far higher numbers from surveys and investigations) and then have a complete change of attitude when it comes to how many women are raped and use victim survey numbers while shunning the far lower police numbers.

To me, anyone who openly uses one standard for the first case saying "police numbers don't reflect how many women are victimized" and then quickly changes their minds and claims police numbers are the ones that should be trusted when it comes to how many men are falsely accused (even though that metric is even less accurate here) is doing so intentionally and in bad faith. And if you ask me, that's seriously messed up.

Skirt_Douglas · 2024-07-29T22:34:42+00:00

It’s so sad that victims have to preface telling their story with:

“I'm going to say its not as common as people on the internet would think it is, but it does happen”

Just to be able to post.

What does that even mean? Not as common as who thinks it is? What commonly cited figures are you even referring to? What a useless statement that does nothing but throw other victims under the bus.

How the do these people tolerate the chafing from that leash and collar?

Gantolandon · 2024-07-29T20:54:37+00:00

You’re living in a dangerous area and you never leave your door unlocked. So do most of your neighbors. Burglars sometimes target one of the houses around here, wait until its inhabitants aren’t there, then pick the locks, cut through it, or just climb through the window. It doesn’t happen often, but no one wants to be stolen from, so people worry about it a lot.

One of your neighbors, however, thinks it’s stupid. “With one, maybe two break-ins per year, it’s stupid to worry about it!” he claims. “I don’t know personally anyone who had been robbed and I bet you too–that’s how rarely it happens!

“Therefore, it’s stupid to lock the doors to prevent something so rare from happening. I never lock mine. Given how unlikely a break-in is, I sometimes even leave them wide open!”

This is pretty much the gist of the argument that false accusations are rare. They correctly point out that in the past, it was usually hard to bring a rapist to justice. That the accusing woman rarely had anything to gain, and frequently could be discredited by the accused and his allies. That the authorities often didn’t want to punish the rapist, especially when he was powerful and influential. That the raped woman would often be scorned by her neighborhood.

Then they use it as a proof that the same would happen in a completely different dynamic, when a woman is automatically believed with no need to prove anything, hearing out the accused is unnecessary, and the accuser can expect support or even clout from her community. They loudly declare they’ll believe every woman and cover up cases when an accusations does out to be false. And, thanks to their efforts, the amount of fake rape accusations is growing, because why wouldn’t it when they made it profitable and consequence-free?

DesoLina · 2024-07-29T22:21:45+00:00

How am i supposed to to take seriously a sub where 90% of posts are made by two people?

THEbeautifuLIE · 2024-07-29T23:05:52+00:00

((my comment on the original menslib post))

If 1 rape is 1 too many,
then 1 false accusation is 1 too many.
If rape victims deserve empathy, security & justice,
**then the falsely accused deserve empathy, security & justice.
If we acknowledge that the majority of rape goes unreported,
*then we acknowledge that the majority of false accusations go unreported.**
If rapists deserve prison or death,
then false accusers deserve prison or death.
If women should be focused on & protected as the majority victims of rape, SA, etc,
then men should be focused on & protected as the majority victims of false accusations.

Embarrassed_Chest76 · 2024-07-29T23:18:59+00:00

In case it gets deleted there:

I think the studies that ignore societal biases are more reliable, because they don't assume that victims are automatically liars and allow that assumption to affect the investigative process. [Emphasis mine]

Holy God, what a thing to say. To think. To believe—and in some way, seemingly, to intend?

Especially for you. You give smartygood YouTube; you know how thoughts become meanings that become words that become meanings that become thoughts.

And you deadass actually believe that all around you—throughout “academia,” the justice systemS (criminal, civil, military, corporate, political, and new “executive”), and of course all of doggone popular culture—are living, breathing human beings with thoughts, beliefs, or “assumptions” of the approximate form:

[(female) rape] victims are automatically liars

I am trying so hard to interpret this fairly, charitably, empathetically. Any other way than that you actually think that little of so many other people you don't even know!

Now I get it: you wouldn't think anything so awful; only awful people do that. You're just helpfully sharing a fact you happen to know about certain awful people, namely:

"They genuinely hold and act, professionally and personally, in accordance with the belief that [(female) rape] victims are automatically liars.

it's about the flawed societal attitudes towards rape victims that permeate academia, popular culture, and the justice system

Flawed?You have imagined and described a sociopathic societal attitude. I can't imagine being cynical enough to think that anybody walks around thinking anything even close to “female rape victims are automatically liars.”

Much less the prevailing majority.

It's offensive beyond imagination. Not only to think so little of so many people you don't even know—but using such craven projection to insulate your own belief system from interrogation.

I don't know if you got the memo, but the left is allegedly about the sprit of humanism and the assumption of fundamental decency. Reasonable people can surely disagree about something like racial reparations—and in many different ways! So imagine what it would take for you to walk away from some conversation thinking “Although they might not have stated it explicitly, this person's position is that because the slave trade was good, just, fair, true, and right (for reasons), historical reparations are not deserved in this particular case.”

Now imagine coming to believe that this imagined position—call it “slave culture”—is actually the prevailing one, permeating academia, the justice system, popular culture, and of course r/ everybody you hate and/or fear.

Nobody is pro-rape but rapists, and probably not even most of them, really. We all know America has more prisoners than any other country. More prisoners are currently serving time for rape/SA than for any other crime, and of course almost all of them are men. If and when they ever get out, unlike any other criminal they will be preceded by a stigmatizing announcement of their arrival for the rest of their lives. In the age of background checks and social media, there is no escape, no fresh start. If the alleged victim was under the age of consent, you might not live to register as a sex offender; in jail, you're a chomo registered Smash On Sight from day one.

This is rape culture, part of Teh Patriarchy's members-only rewards program...

Appropriate-Use3466 · 2024-07-29T20:23:03+00:00

The point in fact is that they don't start from the presumption of innocence. False accusations are all accusations apart from those that become condamnations. The reason why they are false doesn't matter. The alleged victim just took LSD before suing? Who cares. I don't care if you sue me for having had a dancing cactus tell you I raped you and you really believed it when you sued me. It's like saying a crime is not a crime if you didn't know it was a crime before committing it. Justice doesn't admit ignorance.

Second, the issue is "I'm a friend with both a accused an accuser, which side do I take? I need to believe women!". No, you need to believe both, just in different situations. When you talk to the alleged victim, believe her. When you talk to the alleged falsely accused, believe him. When you go home suspend your judgement. It's simple. Believe both because that's what a friend does, because you don't know the truth.

However, legally speaking, in dubio pro reo. We are not talking about a presumption of guilt, we begin with a presumption of innocence.

And for the fact that there are a lot of unreported rape, the two things can also not be related at all! For example, if the rape victim doesn't sue but a false accuser sue, the two populations (rape victims and false accusers) are two different populations!! Maybe there are really more rape victims who don't sue and a lot of suers are false accusers who were never raped.

Finally, by talking about data, in order to know the real data about false accusers, we need to avoid beginning from the guilty until contrary evidence, but from the innocent until contrary evidence. So, if we start from presumption of innocence, the real data about false allegations are: all the allegations that did not go to a sentence of guiltness.

"But what if the woman changed her mind or didn't have enough evidence but the fact happened?" It's irrelevant. Presumption of innocence. You are not guilty but when it's demonstrated the falseness (the 2% data), but it's the opposite: you are innocence until a judge decides otherwise.

Moreover, as false accusers in "good faith" that didn't remember well, there are also rapists in "good faith": what if I thought you consented, you actually consented enthusiastically in the beginning but in the middle you changed idea but I misheard and you just said "no" and I heard "now", and you didn't say "no" anymore? Is it rape? For the victim yes. But the guy isn't a rapist, because he actually thought that you consented.

Yes, this is how you sound like when you differentiate between false and unfounded allegations. It's the equivalent of this logic reasoning.

NonbinaryYolo · 2024-07-29T21:49:07+00:00

There's an underlying implication here I'd like to address, that if a situation only applies to a minority of cases that it's unimportant, less important, and not worthy of discussion or consideration. That if false accusations only account for a small percentage of rape accusations they shouldn't be talked about.

By logic we shouldn't be concerned about rape period because 99+% of interpersonal situations don't result in rape.

99+% of Police interactions don't result in police brutality so obviously we should disregard that injustice right?

WanabeInflatable · 2024-07-29T19:11:44+00:00

I merely asked in comments whether they are ready to discuss the topic or it is taboo. Of course it is taboo

WitnessOld6293 · 2024-07-30T04:32:03+00:00

Real bros gaslight each other on crime statistics. Thank you menslib

thereslcjg2000 · 2024-07-30T01:33:38+00:00

The “how common are they” question is so irritating to me because in my mind, that’s not at all relevant to the issue at hand. Presumption of innocence and due process are important for anyone accused of a crime regardless of how likely it is that they are guilty vs innocent. Even if literally fewer than 1% of cases were false (despite the data not supporting this), that wouldn’t change the fact that the accused deserve the same basic human rights as people accused of any other crime.

Snoo_78037 · 2024-07-30T06:16:05+00:00

Men'slib is annoying. They don't even deny patriarchy theory.

Disastrous_Average91 · 2024-07-30T15:39:39+00:00

Can they please stop pretending to care about men? They are actively hurting men and boys

AryanFire · 2024-07-29T23:18:06+00:00

The reason they push this disinformation around false allegations is to prevent legislation around it. So that the real stats never make it into pressuring government policy into criminally punishing a false allegation appropriately in a way that deters them. And no, defamation suits are not a workaround, a false allegation must be punishable by at least 50% of the criminal sentence of the allegation that was made.

Carbo-Raider · 2024-07-30T16:48:13+00:00

It's amazing how much men are "pro-woman", as woman are giving men the finger. MensLib needs to rename their group.

DrewYetti · 2024-07-30T14:08:25+00:00

If menslib are serious about men’s issues, then they would make attempts to downplay them. I find that to be hypocritical of them to do so. They are not pro-men, they are pro-manginas.

Carbo-Raider · 2024-07-30T17:26:21+00:00

It's not rare. It can SEEM rare in comparison to the fake numbers of the MeToo movement in social media where every post with the hashtag were counted (even my 15 posts criticizing it)

Title	Menslib being menslib
Author	BootyBRGLR69
Upvotes	186
Comments	92
Date	July 29, 2024 6:11 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1ef6hu9/menslib_being_menslib/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/menslib-being-menslib.1525705 https://theredarchive.com/post/1525705

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