Explaining to a 'feminist'. Help please!

hardwarequestions · 2012-09-29T14:37:22+00:00

I think you may be better off speaking with your parents and school counselors. Her behavior, and that type of hostility, has no place in a high school.

Best of luck.

kazagistar · 2012-09-29T15:23:05+00:00

Given her age, it's unlikely she has these beliefs due to years of thought, research and analysis--the most likely reasons, in order of likelihood, that she identifies as this kind of a "feminist" are (a) she has a close female adult family member(s) who is a radfem and has brainwashed her--I've met countless 16 year olds who have the most radical rage-filled views on all kinds of topics and the reason is usually because their parents do, honestly or (b) she's a headcase in general and saw in your t-shirt a fabulous opportunity to make a shrieking humiliating scene for someone else and feel self-righteous all at the same time, headcases LOVE that or (c) she's had some extremely bad experiences at the hands of boys or men--I mean really bad, not just name-calling or being ignored but VERY ugly, probably sexual--and to combat the horror and helplessness of that, has stumbled across the radfem version of feminism (thanks, Internet!) and is comforting herself with it and your t-shirt triggered her.

You notice that none of these options allow you the ability to talk to her rationally on the topic, and that's because you almost certain can't, because hating any group of people in its entirety based on any physical trait of theirs or even wrongs a few of the millions of them have done you is not rational. If you try, you will probably only get hurt. If you want to talk about the positives of feminism and equality, you definitely should! Just not to her and anyone who seems to be friends with her. They won't appreciate it and others might, and there's no reason to expose yourself to undeserved vitriol and abuse, sweetie. Whenever she starts in on you, just stare at her with contempt and if you can, ignore her, and if you can't, make it clear which of you is the sane person and which isn't to any others who might be around. (shouldn't be hard. :) ) If for some reason she actually tries to physically harm you, do NOT let that slide (just in case she's the headcase variety--they sometimes use weapons, trust me). Get help fast.

EpicJ · 2012-09-29T14:33:40+00:00

You could try talking to her and also talk to her about spreading lies but I think it would be best to ignore her

sibqm_lmvm · 2012-09-29T14:28:25+00:00

Is it worth trying to talk to her?

Probably not. Typically people your age are pretty set in their ways. This is especially true for feminist girls. All of my life, I was told that, since I was a girl, I could be whatever the hell I wanted and no one could stop me because of the work of feminists. I was lucky to get that kind of positive message out of the movement when I was younger (not that I'm super old now... I'm 19). However, feminism has changed. It is now about "dismantling the patriarchy" and promoting the idea that women are victims who are oppressed by cis white males. This brand of feminism is not keen to being contradicted, so it's probably best to drop the issue with your friend.

As for the neo-nazi stuff, screw her. No one really believes that bullcrap and it'll only make her look worse for saying it.

kintu · 2012-09-30T09:46:06+00:00

it is an example how feminism turned out... feminism in principle isn't evil.

SenorSpicyBeans · 2012-09-29T19:36:20+00:00

This doesn't sound fake at all.

Jacksambuck · 2012-09-29T14:32:06+00:00

She is a feminist, you might be better off dropping the feminist label so as not to give her and others like her credibility.

TheGentlemanZombie · 2012-09-29T19:30:59+00:00

I think it's not worth trying to talk to her, she's beyond help at this point. You need to report her if she's harassing you.

DejaBoo · 2012-09-29T22:49:07+00:00

Former feminist here, Good for you!!!!

Feminism literally means "about women." The root word being "women" and the suffix being "doctrine/belief." This later part I put in bold because it is very applicable not to you but to the person you are writing about.

A person with a strong set of beliefs is seldom open to challenge those beliefs. So, she is likely a lost cause much like a creationist talking about the science of evolution would be at that age.

What isn't a lost cause are some very simple facts in the USA to say, "Look at thes facts, you can't tell me these aren't an indicator there's a real problem in the USA today (assuming you're USAian)?" Also, here in the USA there is political badge that is really F'ing over any constructive discussion about sexism or the environment. Science is thrown out the door such as the below stats for you must be PRO WOMAN therefore ANTI MALE. Here's an example how pervasive of problem it is I ran into on 2x sub celebrating having their BC pills paid for and person from EU just commented are we, in the USA, going to have similar legislation on having men's auto insurance not being sexist as well. The feminist replied, "Other things, like transportation, are more important" and is totally clueless as to why I found that sexist.

Anyway, I digress... to the facts:

over 2/3 homeless are men with 20% women and rest children. As far as the streets I would say it's closer to 90% men (I worked with homeless late 90s). Stats define homeless as assisted living conditions not living on streets.
95% of all workplace injuries and deaths are men (this one should be a WTF and stick to your guns, imo).
Majority of violent crimes are against men
90% of incerated people are men

And when people say, yeah but most elected officials are men, then simply reply but last election women were 55% of the vote. This stat is mainly do to the war on drugs and men being felons (denied right to vote) though men and women equally use and abuse -- another example of the sexist criminal system and our society putting our men on the front lines while women in general are protected. Then return to why focus on the few privilege why millions of men are going hungry and cold as we speak? Ask fellow students how much more they are aware of starving and malnutritioned children in foreign nations and not their fellow men in our own nation, and why is that?

Also, how many men are forced into selective service or into gang violence to avoide homelessness. Is that not oppression? Feminism talks about fear and oppression as if it is something it only occurs to them. This is false and they are taking advantage of gender roles where it is a topic where it is only acceptable for fear to be talked about by women. Homelessness = fear. Gangs = fear. Incarceration = fear. Combat in Afganistan = fear! /r/combatfootage

Proud of you being a feminist who actual embodies the "equality for both genders" and doesn't use that as the catch phrase to justify their slippery slope of bigotry your classmate is expressing. I hate to tell you this, but this will not be the last time you will see this. I personally dropped the feminist badge because of such people because I do not want to be associated with them.

TL;DR just educate like you are doing at let the facts speak for themselves. The ones above are pulled out of my head so please fact check and keep rock'n for civil liberties!

Vordreller · 2012-09-29T23:21:34+00:00

She's not a feminist. She's a power-tripper. And she's piggybacking on feminism to get away with influencing people's lives.

Because that's what power is, to these people. Making the lives of other people change beyond their ability to control.

She gets off on the fact that your bad reputation is:

Because of her.
You're powerless to stop her.

It's all about the power.

She's creating issues with other people because that's easier and less painful than fixing her own, personal issues.

Roulette88888 · 2012-09-29T15:56:05+00:00

Equal rights.
Feminism

Choose one.

Sporkboy · 2012-09-29T22:09:13+00:00

I came into school wearing a t-shirt that just had "Equal Rights for Men" printed across it in black text and an anchor.

Thanks for being awesome.

Is it worth trying to talk to her?

Nope. If she flew off the handle over a slogan on a shirt, she won't listen to a word you have to say.

opensourcepirate · 2012-09-29T16:31:48+00:00

As you can see from the responses, 'feminist' is a loaded word here, due to the actions of the 'feminists' like the girl you're having problems with. I personally would rather see reasonable people like you take the word back than have anyone dismiss all feminists. If you went to a mainstream feminist forum and said that you were a men's rights activist for the EXACT same reason you just said you were a feminist, you would see great disdain for "MRA's" and likely yourself for self-identifying as one. I think that the best course of action for both sides is to weed out the pretenders like the girl at your school and keep those words as having legitimately positive meanings.

As for your situation. That girl is clearly bullying/harassing you. Take your pick. You have stated that that isn't really an issue to you. I think it's something you shouldn't allow to happen, but it's really up to you.

Dealing with irrational people is something that many people in the men's rights movement have had trouble with, and there's not always a good solution. If she has gone to the lengths of convincing people that you're a neo-nazi because you suggested that men face discrimination, I doubt that you'll be able to convince her otherwise. I would say that perhaps you can convince her that you're an ok person, by lying about your true beliefs and conforming more to her worldview, but that's not what you're looking for here.

You could perhaps convince lots of other people that she's crazy for thinking that you're a neo-nazi, when actually you're a totally decent human being, but that's not particularly helpful either. There's really no magic bullet for dealing with irrational people like her, because the only reasonable way to convince someone else to share your opinion is through rational argument, which can't work by definition.

Most schools have gotten better over the years at taking bullying seriously and being willing to act to prevent it. I think your best options are either to let things blow over or to try to stop the bullying. If there's a teacher that you like/trust, they might be a good person to start with. They may have other suggestions. If you do talk to anyone in the administration, make a note of who you talked to, when, and what you talked about. It could be useful if things turn into a major issue. Also, if they know you're keeping track of things, they're more likely to actually take action.

Good luck.

TalesAbound · 2012-09-29T23:00:48+00:00

The following two comments are contradictory:

I believe that both men, women and anyone who isn't either should have equal rights.

I'm a 16 year old girl who is a feminist.

Feminism is inherently anti-male. Patriarchy theory, 'rape culture', and the very idea that men have all the power which is why women do not, holds men responsible for the worlds ills. One cannot be a feminist without blaming men as a whole on some level.

If you genuinely believe in equality, then you are not a feminist. You are an egalitarian, like I, and like many other MRA's. If you are a feminist, you are not and never can be an egalitarian; the movement you identify with innately believes that men must fall so that women can rise, to whatever an extent. I beseech you to consider the tags you wear, and why you wear them.

As for your problem, see the other responses here such as hardwarequestions's. The actions you describe are inappropriate and ridiculous. Face them head on, but have a record that you deal with the relevant authorities for it. Good luck and please keep us updated!

EmmaBailey · 2012-09-29T19:45:33+00:00

You can't really change someone's opinions. I'd say find some good literature for her to read about the plight of men in society and hand it to her. Just tell her to read it, and think about it. That if she feels that men should be discriminated against then she is in no way shape or form a feminist. She is just a bigoted cunt.

I find letting people read, works better then having a face to face argument. When you do that people's egos tend to get in the way and they don't care how right you are. Print out some good essays, recommend books, or websites. Tell her to educate herself. I mean if she refuses then she is only showing how ignorant she really is.

If she wants to be a cunt still, then walk away from it. There is just no reasoning with some people.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-09-29T23:43:58+00:00

When in doubt, break out the stats.

She'll have stats of her own, some of which are totally valid(breast cancer is more lethal per case, for example, so having more funding per case makes sense, but the the disparity we have is not proportional), but a lot of stats about how bad women have it are incomplete or flat out wrong.

If you want specifics there's /r/MensRightsLinks and /r/MRRef , and if something you're looking for isn't there, it's possible one of us has something on it. I know Celda and I have fairly good sized bookmark libraries.

JockeVXO · 2012-09-30T00:55:47+00:00

But I couldn't care less about that.

Correct use of the phrase Could *not*care less. This makes me glad.

My main concern is the bad name her type give feminism

I couldn't care less. Feminism is a sexist dogmatic ideology based on statistical lies and faulty premises, and should be exposed for what it is: Hatred and bigotry.

the impact beliefs such as hers can have on equal rights.

Well, since she aligns herself with chauvinists who succeeded in achieving complete sexual supremacy, I don't see how her or other feminists' actions could influence equal rights. They've achieved their goal of dominance, they have as much interest in equal rights as they had in 1876... fuck-all.

DerpaNerb · 2012-09-30T02:05:38+00:00

I'm a 16 year old girl who is a feminist

Then don't be.

That girl in your class represents what has essentially taken over feminism. So sure you may agree with the ideals of feminism (equal rights for women AND men), but you have to realize that recently, that is NOT what happens in practice... it's more like, "more equal" rights for women, with zero shits given for men (or worse, actively against men).

IMO, just call yourself an egalitarian and let feminism implode on itself.

Lupawolf · 2012-09-30T12:45:38+00:00

Your friend is exactly the reason I distance myself from feminism. Also you might want to talk to a teacher about this.

Loasbans · 2012-09-30T16:46:46+00:00

That girls a proffesional victim, try getting her to justify cases of discrimination against men publicly and see how many people take her side and you'll either show her for the fool she is or you'll find your classmates are also idiots.

chavelah · 2012-09-29T22:04:38+00:00

I'm a 16 year old girl who is a feminist... I came into school wearing a t-shirt that just had "Equal Rights for Men" printed across it in black text and an anchor.

I'm a 34-year-old woman who is a feminist, and you just made my goddamn day. THE REVOLUTION LIVES! Your peer is certainly giving feminism a bad name, but there you are standing next to her giving it a good name.

Anybody who is vindictive enough to spread rumors that you are a neo-Nazi is probably not somebody you can reason with. That's the crappy thing about school, you are fenced in with assholes all day long. Ignore her. It's not your job to fix her.

Roddy0608 · 2012-09-29T17:09:42+00:00

Did you know that you can advocate equal rights without using the feminist label? Leave it to the female chauvinists.

truthjusticeca · 2012-09-29T14:25:46+00:00

You're not a feminist.

My main concern is the bad name her type give feminism

Why? Let them expose themselves for what they really are.

DavidByron · 2012-09-29T22:34:59+00:00

Well I think all feminists are like that to some extent so I think if she's giving feminism a bad name that's fair and accurate. I don't think she's giving equality a bad name though.

How can I change her opinions

Well first of all you have to tell her she's being immoral because men are people too and deserve the same rights as women. That won't change her mind but it will allow her to perhaps change her mind at some point in the future if some emotional event happens that can knock her out of her rut.

Perhaps a close relative or friend of hers who is male will have something bad happen to them because of sexism. At the moment she'll interpret such an event in terms of her own prejudices, but if you make her aware of an alternative she will have the ability to rethink her position once that emotional event takes place.

But for now, don't expect her to change.

FireTruth · 2012-09-30T07:17:05+00:00

in 7 years.... i have helped a few sexist girls, stop being sexist and realize the sexism against men that happens right before there eyes.

but many are too hard to reach...

with the girls i helped.... i often did tests right in front of there eyes.

i told them my theroy... made a perdiction..... asked a girl or girl a question... and we watched what happened.

then explained how this was sexist... almost like i would to a child.

or i would perdict how a guy or girl would act... and we would watch and see if i was right, and i ussualy was...... then i would explain to them that i knew that girl was going to be sexist thats why i predicted she would do that ect ect ect..

i now have a number of female friends that now realize there is lots of discrimnation against men... and often they them slves did it and didnt realize it at the time.

i also have a number of feamle friends who realize some of the sexism or simialure negitive traits is deeplyingrained in them, and they try to remind them selves not to do it....

we debate and talk about the subject constructivily and openly now.... the tempure tantrums many of them had are long since past.

some of them dont bring it up much, and mearly tolerate or discuse it when i do..... some of them eagerly wish to talk about discrimnation against men that they witnessed or simalure topics in that real we have discused.

the problem is this girl you speak is the typical femmini-natzi.... but the sexism she has can be found in most girls to many degrees.

i think that most girls have a disturbingly high amount of sexism in them.... i think the femminsit in your class is a more extream example of what it can become.

oh.. and i soppose i owe you thanks for suporting eqaul rights for men..... you dont find too many girls who think about that.

The-New-Flesh · 2012-09-30T09:06:17+00:00

If someone is not willing to engage you in a rational discussion, that is, if they are not willing to entertain the notion that they may be wrong, that you may be right and that the two of you can resolve this disagreement through, and only through, logical arguments supported by evidence, then you aren't going to have a civil discourse with them let, let alone change their mind.

I also would recommend that you be cautious as to which ideologies you choose to endorse. Feminism, much like most other political ideologies, comes with a lot of baggage. Rationality cuts both ways, so you should at least entertain the notion that Feminism includes this girl's point of view, or even, that it essentially or effectively can be surmised by her point of view. I would argue that it's a better policy not to buy your ideas in bulk, but rather a la carte. Thus you don't need to endorse an entire ideology to arrive at your value of gender equality. You could simply call yourself an equalist, an egalitarian or better yet just state what it is that you believe in. For example, stating "I believe that men and women should be treated as equals in society and under the law." or something like this, would perfectly capture your sentiments (I'm guessing) and with greater clarity as they do not come packaged with the unintentional endorsement of things you may not know of or agree with.

rapiertwit · 2012-10-01T12:01:51+00:00

This applies to any kind of dogma - whether it's political, religious or other. You don't debate people to change their minds. If two people are both willing to hold a reasonable conversation about a topic they don't see eye-to-eye on, and both are open to new ideas, yes, one of them (or both) might come around to a different way of seeing things. But most of the time it doesn't work like that. It's the bystander, the onlooker who is most likely to be persuaded. So, if you continue to stand up for your point of view, remember to keep yourself armed with the easiest-to-digest facts, remember that debate (whether it's from a podium or in a hallway) is about persuading the onlooker/audience, and above all, keep calm and don't let yourself get dragged into emotional drama. People with facts on their side don't need to yell or name-call.

rightsbot · 2012-09-29T14:18:17+00:00

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OuiCrudites · 2012-09-29T16:49:17+00:00

All Feminism is biased against men. If you genuinely care about equality, you need to distance yourself from the Feminist movement.

ExpendableOne · 2012-09-29T16:53:56+00:00

Why are you so ardent about labeling yourself as a feminist in the first place? From the sounds of it, you are far more of an egalitarian than a feminist. You are witnessing first hand what kind of harm feminism can cause, yet you still insist of affiliating yourself to the label. Why? Why not just call yourself a equal rights activist, which includes being both a man and a woman's rights advocate? If you find that her behavior(which is far more representative of feminism as a whole than your interpretation of it) reflects poorly on you, why would you not disassociate yourself from her or the ideals on which her views stem from?

galenwolf · 2012-09-29T20:44:14+00:00

You're an egalitarian, not a feminist.

kazagistar · 2012-09-29T14:20:36+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ELTepes · 2012-09-29T18:09:59+00:00

Don't bother trying to explain anything to her. She doesn't care. At sixteen, she has her head up her ass and nothing you say will convince her otherwise. She's not a feminist, she's a female supremacist.

This rest of it is what you need to focus on. This is harassment. While I think anti-bully laws go overboard at times, this is what they were made for. Talk to your parents and school faculty. Don't engage her, just report her when she harasses you. Good luck.

Ortizjoel21 · 2012-09-29T21:07:52+00:00

Feminism is not about equal rights, so please if you really care about men's right stop calling yourself a feminist.

Peil · 2012-09-29T19:17:29+00:00

Typical idiot, calling you a nazi. So ridiculous, because we all know how much Hitler loved equal rights. Ask her to relax and sit with you, then explain calmly what you mean by it.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-09-30T06:51:53+00:00

Usually the best way to reach someone who so vehemently opposes you is to "kill them with kindness." Go out of your way to be nice to her. This may suck as she'll most likely treat you poorly, but it will leave a lasting impact that may not pay dividends for years. Stand up for your beliefs, be respectful, and be kind.

trollmonkeyisatroll · 2012-09-29T21:39:26+00:00

It's amazing the number of hypocritical shitheads in this thread screaming and bitching about how feminism isn't egalitarian...while posting on a Mens' Rights forum and proudly proclaiming themselves Mens' Rights Activists.
So MRA is egalitarianism, despite the fact that you call yourselves Mens' Rights Activiests, and feminism is sexist and harmfull?
You guys have revealed yourselves to be the hypocritical, misogynistic asswipes you really are. Have fun circlejerking about how sexist "feminism" is and how it's totally fucking against egalitarianism...while calling yourselves MRAs.

duglock · 2012-09-29T16:36:55+00:00

She's now going round saying that I'm a neo-nazi.

You will find that when you argue with someone that is a leftist they will always make a personal attack claiming you are a racist. This happens 100% of the time. This is because leftism is an emotional rather then a logical philosophy. It is a defense mechanism they use because they have no facts on their side.

loose-dendrite · 2012-09-29T18:40:57+00:00

She's now going round saying that I'm a neo-nazi

So I guess Child Feminists and adult Feminists think exactly the same way.

Title	Explaining to a 'feminist'. Help please!
Author	Abandoned_Keys
Upvotes	87
Comments	136
Date	September 29, 2012 2:16 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/10o15i/explaining_to_a_feminist_help_please/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/explaining-to-a-feminist-help-please.1012440 https://theredarchive.com/post/1012440

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