I just had a recent thought

Punder_man · 2022-08-26T12:23:04+00:00

Not only that.. but in the case where BOTH parties are drunk the man is still 'guilty of rape' even though they were both drunk and thus 'could not consent'

But only the man will get in trouble..

dw87190 · 2022-08-26T11:44:39+00:00

Feminism and gynocentrism: Always blame the man

Society: But what if -

Feminism and gynocentrism: Always. Blame. The. Man

63daddy · 2022-08-26T11:54:21+00:00

It’s a huge double standard. If a woman drinks, She’s responsible for her decision to drive, more responsible than if she was sober, but her drinking makes her not responsible for her decision to have sex.

pearl_harbour1941 · 2022-08-26T12:15:29+00:00

Ironically, this actually reinforces what feminists call a Patriarchal Norm - a behaviour that originates in men's oppression of women.

Here it is.

By saying that a woman who is drunk can't consent and isn't responsible for what happens to her, this denies her agency, something feminists are adamant that women should have - the ability to make her own decisions and take action on them.

And this particular one rests on the trope that women just lie there and let sex happen to them.

So if alcohol robs a woman of her agency and automatically reverts her to her Patriarchy state of just lying there, then feminists should ban women consuming alcohol entirely, surely?

Low_Cranberry_4024 · 2022-08-26T13:09:45+00:00

I once gave my sister this senario: If a man goes out with a female friend and she tries to get him drunk so that he can sleep with her did he cheat.

my sister: yes he cheated.

me: so if a man finds a drunk girl in the bar and they have sex was she graped.

my sister: That's completely difrent those are to difrent scenarios.

it's not just when it comes to sex a man is always responsible for his actions no matter what state he is in and a woman actions is always cuased by society.

IanHawkess · 2022-08-26T12:20:18+00:00

Women want the illusion preserved that they’re the same as men in order that they can be ‘equal’. Think of playing football with a child. You need to let them win, and don’t hurt them by tackling or being too rough. That was the game we used to play - they were to some extent insulated from the (let’s be honest) uglier side of male sexuality via courtship rituals and conventions around dating and marriage etc.

They (women) wanted the sexual revolution. It’s exposed them to much more risk than was generally the case (although there was of course spousal rape and criminality, I’m not denying it). It’s been something of a disaster for a lot of women. No complaints from me personally, I’ve very much enjoyed the easy access to sex that’s been pretty much offered on a plate to me since I was around 16. This isn’t the ranting of an ‘incel’.

But next time you’re getting harangued because they’re seemingly unable to take responsibility, remember it’s because you’re not supposed to be playing for real (the toddler football analogy again). They want us all to pretend we’re playing properly, but we know we’re not. They’re at much more risk than us. That was always the case and always will be. So we (over hundreds and hundreds of years) created a bunch of social conventions they now deride as ‘patriarchy’. Turns out a lot of that was ‘we promise not to tackle you like we would another adult and knock you to the floor, injuring you in the process’, not just a plot to keep women down.

RowanSomewhere · 2022-08-26T18:57:43+00:00

You have just discovered yet another of the double standards.

Girl drunk, guy sober? Rape.

Girl sober, guy drunk? Hot sex, and he's responsible for a child if any.

Both drunk? He raped her, and he's responsible for a child if any.

Almost all women think this evil fucked up shit is equality, and it tells you everything you need to know about them. STEER. CLEAR.

Go get a woman from a country that doesn't teach their women that all men are evil, dangerous rapist pump monkeys.

buppyu · 2022-08-26T14:13:17+00:00

Yes, the concent laws only apply to women. It is perfectly legal for a woman to "rape" and completely incapasitated man. What's worse, she can deliberately not use birth control and get pregnant. Since men don't have the right to "choose" their parental status like women do, she can then live off this man's forced labor like a slave owning parasite, as a reward for committing rape. Of course, it's only "rape" when a man does it, right?

No matter what horrible thing a woman does to a man, she is always, somehow, his victim.

That is our "patriarchal" legal system.

WR1GT · 2022-08-26T22:10:57+00:00

So if your Doing the deed with your girlfriend and you both are drunk, it’s still rape!?

This is fucking stupid, just because you regret it the day after, docent make it rape

DavidByron2 · 2022-08-26T17:51:41+00:00

It just blows my mind feminists play the "We are way too stupid to make choices" card so often.

If you think women can't consent after drinking, but think a man can.... you're sexist and view women as much dumber than men. Saying women can't make decisions in a circumstance that a man can.... just think about that for a second.

unluckieduckie · 2022-08-26T22:10:35+00:00

It’s true that the women are responsible for their own decisions, meaning you can’t go into a high crime area waving your wallet over your head expecting not to get robbed– just as you can’t go to a bar, get hammered and expect nothing bad to happen. However, for the other party it is still mugging in the first scenario and still rape in the second.

-Merasmus- · 2022-08-26T14:31:52+00:00

I mean the main thing is that if you have sex with a drunk person, you likely know that they are drunk and still do it. Then again, getting someone to sign a contract while clearly drunk isnt a crime either i think

UnfurtletDawn · 2022-08-26T15:51:56+00:00

Ehm I think you are kinda not getting the point.

If you do something illegal while drunk it's on you. But with sex it can be seen as someone taking advantage of you.

Imagine someone pouring alcohol down your throat just to make you sign something. Or purposefully going to clubs to find someone intoxicated to scam them.

If you in your drunken state attack someone because you are an idiot it's on you. But if someone took advantage of your drunken state to make you attack someone now it's shitty.

Forcetobereckonedwit · 2022-08-26T14:36:13+00:00

You're not wrong, just unpopular in femworld due to double standards.

Dapper_Revolution_65 · 2022-08-26T17:21:38+00:00

The answer is clear. The woman who drove drunk, but rammed her car into a parked car was obviously raped by the parked car.

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-08-26T15:34:40+00:00

The "drunk = unable to consent" thing is a tricky situation.

I DEFY anyone who has ever drunk alcohol to the point of inebriation to tell me they never made a decision while intoxicated that they might have made differently if they were sober.

The real tricky point with regard to consent for sexual activity is whether or not the consent could be given at the level of intoxication.

For driving, if you have any detectible alcohol in your system and you get in a wreck (even if the level of intoxication was below any established limits for DUI/DWI), you're going to face issues with regard to fault and enhanced penalties for the accident.

However, if you're 3 beers in and decide to have sex, might you have made the same decision while sober? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe those 3 beers were just enough for you to get past your normal shyness and flirt/come on to that person that you DID want to have sex with, but while sober, were always too shy to initiate the interaction... does that mean you were unable to consent?

It's pretty clear when someone is standing/walking with difficulty or not at all, unable to speak without heavily slurring their words or at all, that consent for sex would AT BEST be questionable, and likely impossible to legally establish.

Being drunk enough to flirt with a bunch of people at a party, while still able to walk reasonably well and speak without marble/mushmouth, is probably not SO drunk that consent cannot be established... but it's definitely close to the line.

Also, with regard to the DUI thing - it is a huge a money maker for states probably even beyond civil asset forfeiture, and so, enforcement of DUI law gets more and more questionable every year - like the GA police who strive to "win" all the department "DUI" arrest competitions by arresting people who they "believe to be intoxicated", and their word is accepted, with no blood test, no field sobriety test, etc. and the DA charges those people... but I digress.

Dapper_Revolution_65 · 2022-08-26T17:25:41+00:00

The laws are all kind of sexist when it comes to drunk activity.

If a drunk man were to grope on a sober woman and try to get with her because he is drunk he would be accused of attempted rape. His alcohol consumption would not be an excuse.

If a drunk woman were to grope on a sober and and try to get with him because she is drunk she would not be accused of attempted rape. Her alcohol consumption would be an excuse.

If this drunk man met this drunk woman and they had drunk sex together he would be called a rapist.

Irys-likethe-Eye · 2022-08-26T21:56:27+00:00

I don't know where you live but as a bartender, if I let someone drunk drive away and they get in an accident, I get in trouble. Legal trouble. A lot of it.

Why? Because they weren't of sound mind and we are regulated by responsible vending laws. Despite that, we are not allowed to physically interact or restrict them from leaving. That is assault and unlawful restraint in the first degree. We cannot take their keys from them. That is considered theft. And we're trying to actually help them and others... not have sex with them.

It's an interesting take on culpability though, unbalanced as it is.

SlumpyNuudles · 2022-08-26T23:05:50+00:00

I agree. It's a mad world.

What if both parties are drunk, consent while drunk, and later one regrets it and makes a big scene. That's not rape, but society has deemed it so.

Rape is not okay. But being a drunk female at a club, I won't say your asking for it, but use some common sense. Why put yourself in such a situation that will increase your odds.

Same goes for a man. Picking up drunk women can potentially lead to disastrous results, even if you are in the right. I'd say same commen sense applies here.

Phelan_W · 2022-08-26T15:59:05+00:00

I get what you mean, but I strongly disagree.

Situation 1: A person (no matter the gender) is drunk, and doesn't necessarily even do anything "bad" besides being drunk.

This person cannot consent, and any sober person who ignores this is taking advantage of them.

Situation 2: A person (no matter the gender) is drunk, and definitely DOES do something bad. They're actively endangering their own life, and the lives of anyone else on the road.

Nobody else is taking advantage of them in this scenario. In fact, anyone else can be seen as a victim since their lives are being put at risk.

--‐--------------------‐--------------------‐------------------

On the topic of drunk = no consent, the only men's issue is that it seems far less common for people to call out sober women for taking advantage of drunk guys.

Instead, it seems common for those drunk guys to afterwards be told things like "Lucky!" or "You should be thankful!". This is definitely an issue.

EdwardM1230 · 2022-08-26T14:03:47+00:00

What a silly strawman.

Drunk drivers put other lives at risk - drunk partiers only present a danger to themselves.

Also, good friends don’t let their friends drive drunk - so you should feel like they’ll help look after you too, same as a drunk person at risk of rape.

AverageHorribleHuman · 2022-08-26T18:07:32+00:00

It's because in the rape situation there is another coherent party that can manipulate the drunk person into an action, the car accident or DUI is a result of one person's actions.

luke-n-goode · 2022-08-26T18:13:19+00:00

If two drunk people have sex, even if the man is in a worse state then he is a rapist in the laws eyes. It’s not possible for a man to not consent to sex. Only the woman.

Brett_Stewie · 2022-08-26T18:47:01+00:00

Drunk driving is when somebody in the wrong state of mind makes a decision to drive. 2 people having sex but one is drunk, the sober person is taking advantage of somebody not in the right state of mind. You can’t compare them as one is a social affair and involves multiple people and one is a physical decision that is made. There are a lot of intricacies with consent within this but it’s definitely best to play it safe and simply maintain the idea that being sober and sleeping with a drunk person is not good.

PrimeWolf88 · 2022-08-26T20:01:59+00:00

Two people get drunk and have consensual sex. The next day if the man claims he was raped nothing happens. If the woman just regrets it then she has the full baking of the courts, society, the police, etc. The man's life is ruined even if they don't lock him up.

HgeanKidNebula · 2022-08-26T20:10:25+00:00

While I agree that the girl in this scenario (or really anyone tbh) should avoid getting drunk enough that her brain stops functioning reliably, or she becomes a danger to others or herself, I think it's deplorable to take advantage of someone mentally compromised while you still have your wits, regardless of gender. (essentially, both parties would be at least partially to blame, but the latter party would be straight up malicious)

This doesn't apply to situations where both parties are drunk/high, past the point of competence. In this case, both parties made a stupid decision, and will likely make another stupid decision with each other, and neither can really blame the other. The man shouldn't automatically be labelled a rapist if both parties were drunk.

rockboiler · 2022-08-26T20:52:29+00:00

I do think there's a double standard between men and women when it comes to drinking, flirting, and having drunk sex. I also think when both parties are drunk and it was clearly consensual at the time, with no evidence of one party taking advantage, that neither party should be to blame.

However, drunk driving and drunk sex/rape are very different. Having sex with a drunk person is non-consensual because it is assumed (whether wrong or right) that the person was taken advantage of/manipulated by someone else. With drunk driving, apart from a few specific cases, there is no way the driver is being manipulated and they have chosen to drive home, often a decision made whilst sober beforehand (again, apart from specific, more complex cases).

ScarfaceTonyMontana · 2022-08-26T21:10:28+00:00

This issue is very context dependant as through my experiences I've come to learn people deal with alcohol very differently. There are people that drink a lot and are no different than them being more open to doing dumb shit but they're still 100% in control. There are people who after drinking are not at all in control. There are people that after drinking literally completely change the way they act and most of their personality.

IMO from my experience being taken to so many meet ups and house parties, I have never seen a girl get so drunk that they come onto and flirt with a guy they didn't already like. I also have never seen a guy respond with anything but chuckles to girls being drunk, and I've also never seen girls baby sitting each other when drunk.

Of course no one is gonna be okay with someone taking advantage of a person in the third category I mentioned above, however I really don't know who has a thing agasint people in the first two categories having sex. The first category are literally people 100% in control but they're just loose, and the 2nd is someone without control but their entire personality is there, they'll not just suddenly start coming onto people. Hell why do you think people drink so often before having sex? My BFF got drunk once because she wanted to be drunk when coming onto her crush because she thought she couldn't do it while sober, and she's in the 2nd category. She told me and another girl not to look after her or anything and I let her do her thing. She didn't seem to regret it either.

Godspiral · 2022-08-26T22:26:27+00:00

Perhaps a better analogy is can a drunk person voluntarily pick a fight such that the drunk person clearly wanted, irrationaly it may be post soberness, whatever benefits of the fight at the time.

That would necessarily cause more damage/harm than the voluntary use of their vagina. Whether or not, post soberness, it turned out to be the optimal use/disuse of that vagina, there is no clear and obvious harm that necessarily occurred to it.

I appreciate protecting the drunk from their own decisions/judgement, but it's not obvious that a "federal case" ought to be made if she chose to have sex.

Master-Edward-3 · 2022-08-26T23:19:39+00:00

Society infantilizes women and not men. Women are ok with this usually so long as it matches with a victimized narrative. They do not want to be infantilized when it comes to running for President and C.E.O big buck jobs because now all of a sudden they are just as capable as a man..But when they are the perpetrators of an accident the law doesn’t seem to see their victim hood somehow as much. They are not able to be the victim there if they’re the at fault driver. They still might get a less harsh sentence than a man counterpart in the same issue.

Bulky-Huckleberry222 · 2022-08-27T01:57:10+00:00

Welcome to a culture devoid of all personal responsibility for women

5tar_k1ll3r · 2022-08-26T16:37:07+00:00

This has to be the dumbest thing I've read.

A drunk driver is a danger to everyone around them, including themselves.

A drunk flirt is a danger to themselves.

It has nothing to do with feminism or "anti male" crap.

Moreover, a drunk flirt requires another consenting human being to actually do anything dangerous to themselves, which is why others, especially someone who's sober, is held accountable. A drunk driver just needs a car and a key.

spletharg2 · 2022-08-26T13:31:22+00:00

If the driver is a woman then it's men's fault because patriarchy.

DickPin · 2022-08-26T14:34:31+00:00

There is also another similar argument towards unwanted sexual advances. If a woman walks down the street in very revealing clothing, it's the guys responsibility to not make an advance on her. Even though guy's brains are wired to go, for lack of a better term, "gaa-gaa" for the opposite sex. At the same point, if I walk down the street with hands full of money, it's the thief's responsibility not to rob me. But if I did do that and got rob everyone would be saying "well it's your fault for walking around with all that cash out in the open, what did you expect?"

OctaviaPinfold · 2022-08-26T21:25:59+00:00

Using alcohol consumption to blame others for your own mistakes is the typical "I'm baby" defense. Sadly it works. Drinking alcohol and getting shitfaced isn't a requirement to have a good time, but many women insist it is and aren't even trying to imply they take responsibility, no matter what happens. Everybody universally agreed that doing shit while you're drunk is on you, but as usual feminism managed to create an exception to the detriment of men. Men can't do that, men can't blame alcohol for anything, not while drinking and driving and not while drinking and having sex. Imagine not being responsible to pay child support if you impregnate a woman while being drunk. If patriarchy existed, that would be the case, but we have feminism instead. In fact if she isn't even drunk, only had some drink but has sex with a guy who is so far gone his erection is a miracle or even nonexistent, it's somehow still a man raping a woman. Feminist/woke logic.

hiding-from-the-web · 2022-08-26T14:54:28+00:00

I can say one thing: Driving requires a lot more hand eye coordination and awareness than sex especially when sex can mean a lot of things other than penetration.

Also, imagine you're drunk and are not even in a state to open the car door. If someone helps you to get in the car and get it started, the other person is responsible as well. (That doesn't mean you are now free of guilt to drive drunk.) But if you're completely intoxicated and someone makes you drive a car (like hold your hands to the steering wheel level of assistance) they're solely responsible for the act.

There MUST be some sort of protection for women who get drunk and cannot consent. And similar to 'culpable negligence' in drunk driving, there must be some repercussions to the men enabling women to have sex while drunk. It must be a very difficult legal challenge to prove whether they were fully intoxicated or only slightly drunk. However as responsible men, we must avoid going after drunk women.

So assume you're on a date and after a nice dinner, the woman in front of you orders some alcohol, you must immediately asks for separate checks and end the farce. Or better yet, state beforehand that you don't like women who drink on dates.

vapordaveremix · 2022-08-26T16:01:24+00:00

So we have 2 drunk people and both made drunk decision. But in 1 situation it’s everyone else’s fault and in the other it’s completely your fault.

Here's how it makes sense: sex requires 2 people, drunk driving requires 1.

If you have an accident while drunk, it's your fault because you're the only autonomous individual in the equation.

But sex requires at least 2 people, so we have 2 autonomous individuals making choices. If one of those individuals is not capable of making choices, or the right choices, due to circumstances they cannot control, then the other person is held responsible for any damage they might cause.

isaiditsoitstruebish · 2022-08-26T19:33:16+00:00

If people didn't have drunk sex, 99% of the population wouldn't exist. Simple as that.

SubmissiveBitch003 · 2022-08-26T13:44:33+00:00

Drunk driving is illegal. And I’m sorry but if YOU cause a major accident because YOU broke the law, why SHOULDNT you be prosecuted? My grandmothers brother was killed by a drunk driver. He was in his early 20s and had two very young children who barely remember him. You literally cannot compare the two. You just can’t. They’re 150% different. And I don’t care if you’re a woman or a man. If you drive drunk then you should be prosecuted

Azihayya · 2022-08-26T15:33:11+00:00

Same thing for guys, who are mostly made to penetrate when drunk. Of course it's your responsibility to not drink and drive--but that's a choice that can lead to killing other people. What's more important here is to frame this from the perspective of consequences and who you're affecting. If two people got drunk and one raped the other, you'd blame the rapist. If you get drunk and get raped, you're the one who was brought injury--so it's pretty fallacious to think, "If someone gets drunk and is raped, how come it's not their fault, since it's their fault if they decided to drive drunk?"--Can someone whose drunk content to sex? Maybe, but I don't think there's any equivalency there to someone driving drunk. The responses in here are kind of wild. It's pretty easy to understand why no one respects this community.

civ6civ6 · 2022-08-26T16:06:13+00:00

I'm pretty sure all of us guys, including us gay ones, have had to put up with a drunk girl putting their hands all over us; and everyone just shrugs it off as a no harm no foul scenario; but if a drunk guy does that to a lady, then he is considered in a completely different respect. When I worked as a go-go in a gay club, I always hated it when guys would bring their fruitflies in, because I knew they would be trying to grope me 10x more than most of the guys in the place.

Jmh1881 · 2022-08-26T16:41:14+00:00

Yep. I think pretty much anyone who's drunk before can agree that you still have a pretty good control over your actions. Yes, inhibitions are lower, but it's not like you become a mind controlled robot with 0 will.

Unless a guy purposely gets a girl as drunk as possible so he can have sex with her without her fully realizing the consequences, it's not rape. Yeah, you may regret the things you say or do when you're drunk, but ultimately you're accountable for those actions because you chose to drunk with the understanding your inhibitions would be lower. Another person can't know how drunk you are or how alcohol effects you.

If a girl gets drunk and has sex with a guy she wouldn't have sober it's not rape, it's a dumb mistake. Drunk driving? The driver is blamed. Drunk cheating? The cheater is blamed. You get drunk and destroy property? You're held accountable. Because we can all acknowledge you still have decision making skills when drunk. Why is sex different?

entredeuxeaux · 2022-08-26T14:35:05+00:00

I get where you’re going with this. But in your example, you’re comparing the person she’s hitting on as an unsuspecting victim (like the victim of the drunk driver) not sure if your metaphor works here. In one scenario, the victim is a willing participant who sees the metaphorical crash (getting hit on) coming? Maybe I’ve misunderstood 🤷🏻‍♂️

Lumpy_Constellation · 2022-08-26T14:45:43+00:00

Taking advantage of vulnerable persons for personal gain is illegal.

The car didn't take advantage of the person's drunkenness and coerce into driving it. That's the difference. If you see someone who's drunk and you aren't drunk, you know they're not in the right state of mind to consent to you. The car isn't sentient, it doesn't know who's too drunk to drive - driving, then, is a decision she made with no outside influence. The car didn't hold them up, wait for them to puke, lead them into the front seat, help them start the engine, and take over the steering wheel when they passed out.

Qantourisc · 2022-08-26T15:09:16+00:00

There is one difference between drunk driving and having sex with someone though.The car can't tell you are drunk. (Well most cars can't.)

But being drunk does indeed not excuse any responsibility I agree.

blackdahlialady · 2022-08-26T16:08:40+00:00

You know, you have a point. I agree that people should be held accountable for their actions at all times but that was something I never really thought of. I never thought of it that way anyway.

Edit: I wanted to clarify that of course rape is never okay in any circumstance. I'm just saying that I never really thought about it the way that you presented it and you have a really good point.

No_Organization_124 · 2022-08-26T16:43:00+00:00

get accused it will make sense

you are spot on its even worse its dog eat dog and they are trying to eat us

union is possible

women are a lie

thats the reason they want these special rules

Zealousideal-Pickle3 · 2022-08-26T16:45:21+00:00

I have also had this question as well. I have never been so drunk that I don’t know what I’m doing. I can be aware of my impairment and know that I’m not steady on my feet and giggly. As far as I can tell people can pass out and forget some (or all of) what transpired. I don’t think people hallucinate while drunk. So I think it’s a cop out saying I was drunk I didn’t know what I was doing. You still feel things, if your brain can tell your legs to walk and your mouth to talk you can still decide to do something. You just made a bad decision and your inhibitions are lessened. A girl can have drunken sex with a drunken guy. She may not remember all that happened to get to that point, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t willingly do it and may have been the instigator to it. But because she doesn’t remember all of a sudden she can call rape. The guys does not have that luxury. People treat drinking like a game and I think it should be more serious than that since people can claim a lack of responsibility while under the influence. So maybe if someone has had a problem while drinking they should have it marked not to sell alcohol to for x amount of time. That’d keep a lot of people smarter I would imagine but there are likely a lot of downfalls to that idea.

DavidByron2 · 2022-08-26T15:14:40+00:00

Can someone make it make sense ?

Feminists hate men and the rules are set up to make men criminals regardless. You could have just pointed out that if a sober woman slept with a man who'd be drinking nobody would have called her a rapist. It's not the act that's bad; it's men who are bad.

Btw if you really want to piss of a feminist ask them "if two drunk lesbians have sex, which one is the rapist?"

Prestigious-Mode7844 · 2022-08-26T16:41:44+00:00

The premise okay, but the problem is in the direction of actions.

So if you take the specifics out of your argument and boil it down to the most basic vector type arguement

In situation one, Bad things are being done to the drunk girl. so the people doing the bad things are wrong

In situation 2, the drunk girl is doing bad things to other people, so the drunk girl is wrong.

I hope that clears it up.

heyyy-kiddo · 2022-08-26T16:49:30+00:00

What you said is true and evidentiates the double standard in the law.

If you ask me it's the feminist way's fault , typical shift responsability while mentaing the rights.

In the drunk driving case you either are not sllowed to drive as a woman so you driving drunk shouldn't happen in the first place (yey....backwards solution ,but follows the logic) or if you drink and have sex then the other party is completley innocent or you are not allowed alcohol at all at the party.

fukin_weeb · 2022-08-26T17:45:21+00:00

Have to disagree on this one. While it is the responsibility of the drunk one to not be drunk in the first place, when one is drunk and getting flirty, it would also be the responsibility of the non-drunk individual to not take advantage of their drunken state. However, when drunk driving, the only one to be held responsible is the person doing the driving, all other are inanimate objects.

batescommamaster · 2022-08-26T16:45:30+00:00

For this particular instance, this situation in itself, you'd be better not looking at it through a legal lense.

Her friends recognizing her vulnerability and protecting her is a good thing. There not thinking along legal lines. They know if they didn't and some guy took her home, it would likely be a mistake, so they're preventing it.

If you compare that situation to a potential drunk driver, well then you'd better hope there are some friends or safety minded people around to prevent the driving. You'd still be accountable if you drove, but those concerned are doing well to prevent you from making that decision.

Without the friends you are left fully accountable.

This girl, without her friends, would be waking up in the morning and having to deal with the consequences of her decision. Maybe it's different now, but when I was in college with these situations, women didn't have any recourse. The most they could affect was possibly the social perception of the guy, and even then people would still seem to downplay that it could have possibly been rape.

Yes the women could wake up and cause all sorts of legal and social trouble for the man. No doubt. But in this sense you should be grateful for her friends protecting her. Any man choosing to pursue a drunk stranger to the point of coitus is going to be a scandal. The result could be a ehole thing. who needs it?

And if you personally have to moral sense not to pursue a drunk girl for sex. Then why would you agree with someone else doing it?

zogins · 2022-08-26T16:36:43+00:00

Really well thought out argument OP! The best arguments are the simple ones, like this one.

rabblerouser81 · 2022-08-26T16:59:07+00:00

You really can’t figure this one out on your own, dude?

Benxall_ · 2022-08-26T21:17:58+00:00

Well first I dont know how drinking and driving is mans rights issue

Second, if someone gets drunk in a party, there are of course other people around, so they have a shared responsibility to do the right thing and not make a move on the drunk person

If you drink and drive thats a situation where you are alone, and even worse endangering uninvolved people, so of course the responsibility will be your alone

-Merasmus- · 2022-08-26T14:40:30+00:00

I mean the main thing is that if you have sex with a drunk person, you likely know that they are drunk and still do it. Then again, getting someone to sign a contract while clearly drunk isnt a crime either i think

iamjaidan · 2022-08-26T17:30:12+00:00

Legally, it's the accusation of rape that carries the charge, and the burden of proof.
Being drunk is a contributing factor, not a cause. A drunk man can also charge a woman with rape, legally.

bakalabalak · 2022-08-26T18:30:23+00:00

Usually bc the man is doing the act. He’s usually on top.

jmcsquared · 2022-08-26T19:13:45+00:00

To give the devil his due, the main difference in driving drunk versus having sex drunk is that drunk driving accidents have nothing whatsoever to do with the sober party who gets hit, whereas a sexual encounter involving alcohol has mutual participation by two parties.

However, I don't believe alcohol always makes you incapable of consenting, in principle.

In moderate doses, alcohol doesn't make you incompetent, as much as it just brings out the real you. It lowers inhibitions and worries, making you more likely to not give a fuck. Of course, enough booze can make you not know what's going on or knock you out, in which case, not only can't you consent to anything, you can't do anything at all. That's an extremely vulnerable state to be put in, which is why worrying about intoxicated people is wise.

But assuming the person voluntarily chose to get drunk (which is a crucial assumption here), a drunk person's actions are their responsibility. So, I fully agree with your reasoning.

In fact, I don't even believe in affirmative consent in the first place. It is absolutely not the case that someone who gets drunk, and then has sex, necessarily wasn't consenting to it. Implied consent is definitely a thing. This possibility is obvious to anyone who's had a Friday night out with their better half. You have drinks, go home, and enjoy yourselves. Nobody asks for sex because the events of the evening have already been planned out beforehand.

Henry_Blair · 2022-08-26T19:39:36+00:00

I disagree and feminism is the reason you don't see the problem in your rational. Feminism wanted to erase the notion that there are two sexes in humanity with two specific and different types of sexuality - male, and female, each with it's unique set of drives that together form sexuality. Feminism always attempted to cause women to have male sexuality, and in practice blamed men for not having female sexuality. But this is all a lie, there are two innate sexes with two different and complementary innate types of sexuality, dictated by the innate sex (they have some things in common too), and in these biological settings, MATING HAS A MECHANISM, and the mechanism of human mating is based on THE MALE USING PSYCHOLOGICAL SUGGESTION ON THE FEMALE THAT CAUSES HER TO DEVELOP A WILL SHE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD OTHERWISE, TO MATE WITH HIM. The entire human sexuality is based on this extremely sophisticated biological mechanism. It has consequences - men are funny and write great novels and poetry because they had to develop in the course of evolution those skills that underlie these arts as a sex to activate the women, women on the other hand are extremely suggestible, which is what causes them to be fashion victims, to absorb very quickly suggestive influences and thus behave very very similar to one another creating trends (which is why while men have different ideas about what a beautiful woman is, every generation of women has more or less only one archetype for the preferred man, because they are fashion victims, because they are so suggestible, because they carry a mechanism of sexuality that forms the female part of mating - susceptibility to suggestiveness). All this means that women have a vulnerability to men's suggestive behavior that men don't have. It's unique to women. If feminism wasn't lying day and night that "there are no two sexes, everything is cultural molds" then we could have this important discussion about that, about the unique female vulnerability to male psychological suggestion, and that alcohol affects their suggestibility differently than in men and THEY REALLY DO THINGS THEY DON'T WANT. Because of their suggestible psychology caused by their psychological mechanism of sexuality, because they are female, women.

Desgraciado93 · 2022-08-26T19:42:05+00:00

In one scenario you endanger the lives of others. The other you dont. You just are in danger of being taken advantage of.

war_m0nger69 · 2022-08-26T20:05:24+00:00

In most jurisdictions I’m aware of, a person has to be impaired to the point where they cannot physically consent before it is considered rape. If they are capable of flirting, they are generally capable of consent. Again - just in the jurisdictions I’m familiar with.

Psychadous · 2022-08-26T20:56:20+00:00

I think the issue is the number of parties involved. If someone drinks and drives or does some sort of impairing drug and gets injured, they alone have responsibility for their actions.

If someone gets shitfaced drunk and propositions someone for sex, there is a second party involved. The second party, assuming they are sober, would take on some of the responsibility for evaluating whether consent can truly be given. Our laws place responsibility on the sober party. Just as a child could provide consent, yet we do not legally recognize their ability to do so. A drunk person can verbalize their consent, yet we place the responsibility on the sober adult to recognize their impairment and the invalidation of said consent. And yes, this works both ways. If a sober woman sleeps with a drunk man she has committed rape. Obviously societal misconceptions about females raping men causes problems in the proper execution of these laws, but this makes them no less valid.

The fun circumstance arises when both parties are drunk and have sex. One would assume neither party could be found at fault. It depends on the location, but on at least one college campus it relies on 3rd party observations. The person who initiates takes the fault apparently. Wouldn't wanna be involved in that court battle. He said/she said galore.

Rodrigii_Defined · 2022-08-26T22:51:40+00:00

Posts like this really show how much privilege white men have enjoyed, forever.
It's a tad less now and some of you are losing your damn minds.

gunnetham · 2022-08-26T22:58:29+00:00

In college i was at a party and got cornered by a girl who was drunk, so was I but she was obviously more drunk then me, and she just would leave me alone. She kept trying to kiss me and I was not having any of it because she was drunk. Fast forward five years, I try to bring this up at a work meeting about sexual harassment protocols and get shut down. I tried to stand my ground about it but one girl stood up for me while the others brushed it off.

GivesStellarAdvice · 2022-08-27T02:35:30+00:00

Your entire thing is based upon a false premise that you've bought into based upon feminist propaganda:

So if said drunk girl flirts w a guy and he takes it all the way, it’s rape.

No it is not rape!

Rape is sex without consent. Being drunk is irrelevant to that analysis. If you consent while sober, there is no rape. If you consent while drunk, there is not rape. If you do not consent while sober, it is rape. If you do not consent while drunk, it is rape.

If the drunk person is also the aggressor/pursuer in the sexual activity, there isn't a legal court in the United States of America that will say that pursuer did not consent. There is unlikely even a D.A. who would try to prosecute it.

Archangel1313 · 2022-08-27T02:48:56+00:00

There is a difference between the two scenarios that needs to be pointed out...

In the case of the drink girl, you also have control over your actions, regarding what to do about her. In the case of her driving drunk, you don't.

You can choose to avoid the situation and potential fallout from taking advantage of the drunk girl...but the drunk driver doesn't give you that choice.

Then there's the fact that the drunk girl isn't putting anyone else in danger, while the drunk driver is.

AdditionalAd1402 · 2022-08-27T03:10:48+00:00

The fucking car isn’t taking advantage of the girl dumbass

LubaUnderfoot · 2022-08-27T04:25:26+00:00

In some places servers and retailers can be fined or even imprisoned for selling alcohol to a person who is drunk who then gets into an accident. Hosts are also responsible for making sure their guests don't drive drunk and obtaining appropriate licenses for serving liquor on private property.

keker0t · 2022-08-27T06:11:22+00:00

Ok if I am drunk but I can talk horny and I ask a girl at club if she would have sex and she says yes ,she is probably drunk too I didn't check, so the deed is done and the next day she says rape ,am I still responsible or does it only count when I just pick up a girl with out saying anything?

Laytheblameonluck · 2022-08-27T07:44:40+00:00

There was actually a recent case in Canada about this, two kids drinking at the beach.

The court screwed it up entirely, the guys vagueness of events was played against his character and wasn't submitted as proof of being drunk, meanwhile the girls entire testimony was ignored as she being that she was drunk.

The kid was clearly drunk and hadn't men's rea, had thought she had consented, the entire situation occurred because of children drinking at the beach without guardians.

SgtMajMythic · 2022-08-27T08:25:10+00:00

Not really a comparable situation. In the case of drunk driving you are not only endangering your own life, but those around you as well. In the case of a drunk girl being taken advantage of that wouldn’t endanger more than that person, plus the action is happening TO you as opposed to something you are going out of your way to do.

NumerousImprovements · 2022-08-27T08:33:37+00:00

I hear what you’re saying, and agree 100%, but you’re posting in this sub where we all agree with you anyway (for the most part, at least).

I’d be interested to hear what a civil discussion would look like in like a feminist group on these points. I’d love to hear their logic.

Ok_Toe6264 · 2022-08-27T09:32:39+00:00

it is actually quite a striking difference in the situation of drunk driving vs sexually assaulting a drunk person.

If you (sober) have sex with someone who is not sober, it is your will alone that causes this to happen. since they are drunk they aren’t able to think effectively and you the sober person are forcing something onto them.

If you (drunk) go out driving and hit someone with your car, the person cannot stop you from hitting them, you are the reason that something bad happened not them.

it is a difference of who is controlling/causing the situation and it shouldn’t be too difficult to extent this logic to all other parts of these types of situations if you would like to think about it.

Title	I just had a recent thought
Author	AcadiaLegal6386
Upvotes	461
Comments	284
Date	August 26, 2022 11:39 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/wy6wlu/i_just_had_a_recent_thought/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-just-had-a-recent-thought.1208955 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208955

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