When talking about consent— Why doesn’t the discussion extend to consent to have my child.

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That's one right not all, as pointed above, you can get brithcontrol and have control over yourself no problem. Also that's an issue that men and women both face to varying degrees since Roe v Wade is under attack women don't really have that right much either. Also woth consent to pregancy there very much are differences since a person with a uterus carries the child and a person with testes does not. So like if a man wants kids and a woman doesn't then if he forces her to carry he's infringing on her rights. Seems like this is something we're all kind of jnto together rather than the West hates men thats being framed. As far as vasectomies only legal restriction is you need to be at least 18, it can be denied if there are underlying health conditions that could adversely affect them, only point is that somedoctors might refuse if the feel the perosn is to young to consent and might regret it later which those same doctors also would do to a woman so not the west hating men just outdated ideas on parent hood that affect men and women again were all kind of in this together.

[–]Mode1961 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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Yes it does all the time, stealthing is a big problem, and as mentioned abortion acces is pretty much non existence now or heavily restricted so many women are forced to carry to term. You can address mens rights without ignoring reality and being sexist towards women. Abusive men get women pregnant to get them to stay with them, and abusive women get pregnant to get the guy to stay with them both happen and both should be addressed. It's a legal and social issues that hurts everyone so bringing down women isn't going to help anyone. It's like when I get in arguments with people about BLM an anti police violence movement, they'll say well white people get shot too or more often, or that BLM doesn't care when white people get shot when that's false since it's a broader anti police violence movement that will help all people. And then when it comes time to fight against police violence they do nothing at best or lick the boots of the police force and run over protesters of police violence. Like here it's always well what about men why don't mens issues get taken seriously snd then it's followed by all women are liars that are put to get you, almost all the rape allegations women say are false, women want to destroy society and men and then absolutely no community action or protests or anything that would actually move society forward and better things for men.

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[+]SadSorrySackOShip -112 points-111 points-110 points 3 years ago* (107 children) | Copy Link

You can refrain from coitus.

Edit to add:

So many downvotes for sound logic. Tsk tsk.

Males are incapable of gestation. A male has no need for preventing the debilitation caused by gestation within his own body, as he is incapable of gestation. Even if you dress up in such a way that mimics the socially-established aesthetics of femininity, you will still never have a capacity to gestate. You're only - if capable of anything - capable of insemination. It would follow, logically, that - if concerned about your reproductive agency - you'd favor the research and development of tools for hindering your capacity for insemination.

If the conservative people of the 60s cared about sexual agency, they wouldn't have argued for inaccess to contraceptives, but rather for an expansion of them.

Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives, therefore I have my doubts this discussion is really about the sexual agency of the male. If he is not fighting for a contraceptive he can take - the way females fought for their's - he is opting, then, to be relegated only to abstinence as an option.

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Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives

Ya, except for here, and in all MRM spaces whenever and wherever they pop up. Would love a safe and reversible birth control, and for cunts to stop pretending a permanent sterility procedure counted as one.

Males are incapable of gestation.

This is irrelevant, as males are still legally and societally held responsible for providing for that offspring for 18+ years. Something women are not, given how safe haven and abandonment laws are written. So women have fucking tons of choices to have sex while avoiding pregnancy and the consequences that brings, while men have effectively none.

And quit with the "well men don't get pregnant" bullshit. Not only is it irrelevant, it's downright maliciously obtuse. 18 years of financial obligation backed by the violence of the state isn't trivial, and given how pampered and taken care of women are during the entirety of their pregnancy, i'd argue it's more burdensome than the actual gestation. So fuck off.

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I just like logic. I'm glad you acknowledge that it's logical.

Meanwhile, males are incapable of gestation. A male has no need for preventing the debilitation caused by gestation within his own body, as he is incapable of gestation. Even if you dress up in such a way that mimics the socially-established aesthetics of femininity, you will still never have a capacity to gestate. You're only - if capable of anything - capable of insemination. It would follow, logically, that - if concerned about your reproductive agency - you'd favor the research and development of tools for hindering your capacity for insemination.

If those people to whom u refer in the 60s cared about sexual agency, they wouldn't have argued for inaccess to contraceptives, but rather for an expansion of them.

Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives, therefore I have my doubts this discussion is really about the sexual agency of the male. If he is not fighting for a contraceptive he can take - the way females fought for their's - he is opting, then, to be relegated only to abstinence as an option.

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I'm not denying an issue exists I'm denying there have been any effectual or significant efforts by men to address the issue. Bitching and moaning on Reddit isn't going to get you anywhere. Is that how women & black people got suffrage, education, medical care..?

It's so fucking dweeby that you'd say I'm denying the existence of an issue. You know that's dishonest. You know exactly what I'm denying because my words are very clear. I'm denying the prospect the majority of men truly give a fuck about this shit. If the majority of men cared about contraceptive for themselves, they would be kicking up a gigantic fussy fucking shitstorm for it.

We all know men in the majority would rather attempt limiting female agency than to use their own fucking agency. Get a gun. Make signs. Go to your government buildings. Make demands. Organize. If you want your public funds to be applied toward research and development of male contraceptive, make that demand fucking known. You will have feminist support. Women hate taking the pill and would rather men do it. If you are the one who wants to be freed from parental obligations, then you should want very badly to have a combination of contraceptives for yourself which you yourself can control instead of leaving it to chance by it being in another person's hands.

Fact of the matter is, the state loves breeding bitches. Every baby born outta wedlock is labor. Human labor. That's the elite's bread n butter bro. If you want men freed from incarceration, to have access to healthcare and reproductive care, shelter and education and more JOIN FEMINISTS IN ORGANIZING AGAINST THE STATE. Ffs

It's like talking to a God damn wall in these "MRA" circles.

[–]rabel111 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BRS3577 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't exactly disagree where you're coming from. Sex is around for one reason; to have a kid. If you're having sex, then you need to acknowledge a child can be an outcome no matter how small. But I highly doubt male contraceptive in the version of a pill could've been developed in the 60s. There's a lot more money and research going into right now then you may realize. Even with current technology and innovations, creating a medication that can essentially turn off sperm production seems unlikely anytime soon.

But the point here is what happens when all is said and done. Condoms break all the time. I know multiple people who are the result of said incident lol. If your condom breaks and she gets pregnant then you just instantly lost any control or choice in the matter. Anything you say doesn't matter in the least and the outcome is 100% out of your control. That's the problem

[–]SadSorrySackOShip 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why it's even more important for males to practice abstinence than females. The absolute choice which is 100% within the male's grasp is the choice to not fuck. Everyone always saying that the female should suffer for the choice to fuck but the material reality is that she doesn't have to; she's the one that gestates therefore it's totally within her power to stop the gestation if she so desires. Even if it comes down to something extreme like suicide, the power is her's alone. Males really really really want this power they want the power of gestation as well as the power to stop gestation. So they try to use the state as a coercion point to seize this power for themselves. But you see, instead of using the state to seize power of female sexual agency, males should exercise their own sexual agency and only fuck females with whom they share a desire to produce offspring. The risks - like MRAs never want us to forget - are all yours. Since it's your risk - risk of some harlot having a spawn you dont want, or nuking a spawn you do want - the onus is on you to mitigate that risk.

Just like I tell females it's on them to mitigate rape. We can cross our fingers n wish on all the shooting stars that dudes will stop raping, but that wish is in one hand with shit in another. A girl or woman who doesn't own and operate firearms nor have training in close combat is a fucking idiot imo and has no sympathy from me beyond the sympathy that she was raised poorly and ignorantly. Guys who stick their dingers in rando bitches have no sympathy from me beyond the sympathy that he was raised poorly and ignorantly. You don't gestate; FEMALES DO, so once you pass that spermy off to her it's her's bro. Or, rather, it's the state's; since the state has ownership over all the bodies in North America (courtesy of ...WAIT FOR ITTT.. policies supported by dudes..LOL).

I'm just assuming it's mostly North Americans in here, of course I could be wrong. However, men I meet from other countries are not quite so pathological and fucked up about coitus, family, or sexual reproduction. They know males and females are different and that males can't gestate. They know the U.S. government is imperialist and oppressive. The U.S., in contrast, is busying itself with a tranny crisis and on the side begging to get nuked lmao.

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If it’s a woman’s body, woman’s choice, and a woman’s consequences then why would a guy be able to dictate whether she does or doesn’t carry her pregnancy to term?

You were trying to argue that men should control whether a woman carries a pregnancy to term, and instead you’re just showing exactly why men don’t have the final say once a woman has already gotten pregnant.

MRA groups never cease to stun me with how dumb their members are. First, you’re talking about pre-pregnancy and having condoms breaking and accidents happening, so men can’t really rely on them. Then, you’re talking about how actually you want men to have control over the pregnancy process once a woman is already pregnant. Then, you go back to talking about birth control pre-pregnancy and talking about condoms as highly effective at preventing pregnancy. You don’t even know what you’re trying to argue for. Just admit you’re dumb and angry that you can’t control women’s pregnancies.

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Raped women have morning after pills, abortion pills, surgical abortions within their state timelines, out of state surgical abortions, (usually anonymous) safe haven dropoffs in the first few months/weeks in all of the US and many foreign countries, and putting the child up for adoption without disclosing the child's father. Males get no outs for parental responsibilities no matter how the child was conceived.

After Hermesmann v Seyer set the precedent, courts around the country have decided that male victims of women owe the perpetrators child support for decades, while other precedents (Roe v Wade) and laws (safe haven laws) generally allow female victims many options to get rid of the product of their rapes.

Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.

E.g.

Alabama man - https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama/court-of-appeals-civil/1996/2950025-0.html

Arizona boy - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

California boy - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-12-22-9612220045-story.html

Others in this paper "Victims with responsibilities" -https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

There are many others out there. I do not believe there has yet been a single case where a boy or man has gotten out of paying child support to an adult woman that statutory raped, raped, sperm jacked, etc.

The good news is that in recent years feminist lobbiests have pushed for laws to prevent rapists from getting child custody. Without custody the child wouldn't be raised by a rapist and the victim wouldn't owe child support. So the day that a male doesn't owe his perpetrator may be coming soon. The less good news is that just over half the states that passed these laws passed them as the feminist lobbiests proposed them - only preventing rapist fathers from getting custody. (https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/parental-rights-and-sexual-assault.aspx)

Terrell v Torres recently set a precedent and invalidated a signed contract to let a woman use embryos created with her ex and have him owe child support.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2019/03/18/arizona-court-ruling-use-preserved-embryos-without-ex-husbands-consent-ruby-torres/3205867002/

Courts have ruled the same way in Illinois and the US supreme court agreed.

http://www.fathers4equality-australia.org/fathers-rights/woman-wins-custody-of-embryos-after-separation/

Courts have ruled the same way in a very similar situation in Italy.

https://www.ansa.it/canale_saluteebenessere/notizie/lei_lui/vita_di_coppia/2021/02/25/si-allimpianto-dellembrione-dellex-marito-anche-se-lui-dice-no_05230156-95ea-406a-aa7e-4e90cf2d7c93.html

Courts ruled the same way in yet another similar case in Israel.

https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99

In several other cases women who forged her ex's signature to implant have been awarded child support from the unwilling father. E.G. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5687477/Ex-husband-ordered-pay-child-support-former-wife-forged-signature-undergo-IVF.html

Reproductive coersion of men is also an issue that would be drastically reduced with financial abortion.

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

American talk shows for women encourage women to stop birth control without telling their partner with the applause of their audiences.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5CNHwhHWPoQ

What about IVF with sperm taken from a condom without the man's consent?

https://www.mommyish.com/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/

How about when they only engage in oral sex which should have no pregnancy risk?

https://rollingout.com/2014/02/04/woman-uses-sperm-oral-sex-get-pregnant-force-man-pay-child-support/

How about court orders mandating men give their wife sperm so they can impregnate themselves during divorce proceedings?

https://theprint.in/judiciary/court-orders-man-to-donate-sperm-to-estranged-wife-who-says-no-time-for-2nd-marriage/255215/

Financial abortion would solve all the financial issues for victimized males and remove financial incentives for women to do these things, but many pro-choice folks immediately start making pro-life talking points that if he didn't want a kid he should have used a condom or kept it in his pants.

Financial abortion is about bodily autonomy. No out for child support forces a man to spend years of his life working to pay for a child he does not want. If he loses his job and is unable to pay, he will lose his travel documents (drivers license/passport) and be locked in a cage.

1 in 8 men in South Carolina jails are there for failure to pay child support. They are not given court appointed lawyers until they are $10k behind and most are arrested and lose their job way before that limit making it extremely difficult to pay.

Src: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

In the US,

66 percent of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money

Src: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-myth-of-the-deadbeat-_b_4745118

Mothers owing child support are more likely to not pay fathers than visa versa, but women are rarely jailed for it.

we found that 32 percent of custodial fathers didn't receive any of the child support that had been awarded to them compared to 25 percent of custodial moms

Src: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/01/389945311/who-fails-to-pay-child-support-moms-at-a-higher-rate-than-dads

But women aren't sent to jail at nearly the same rates for failure to live up to their obligations.

Based on national data, if incarceration for non-payment of child support occurred at equal rates for men and women who are in arrears, 88% of those incarcerated would be men, not 95% to 98.5%, and 12% would be women (since 12% of those in arrears are women). If, as Brennan’s report shows, as few as 1.5% of those incarcerated for non-payment of child support in Massachusetts are women, instead of the expected 12%, then women in arrears are incarcerated at a rate eight times less than their numbers warrant.

Src: https://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/03/15/women-who-fail-to-pay-all-of-their-child-support-are-incarcerated-only-one-eighth-as-often-as-men-with-similar-violations-n130850

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> impregnating women against their wishes

I honestly wonder how that could happen. I mean, if you see a man just going raw and you don't want it, just say so? (or vice versa). Countinuing to have sex depsite your protests would then be , well, kinda rape.

>and then denying an abortion.

And since its, well, rape (you did get fucked against your consent, that is true), you can then have a special case for those type of abortions (financial or not)

Not to mention, right now its literally this, except only for women. They can get pregnant with your semen (can someone link that article where a woman collected sperm from a used condom, impregnated herself with it and forced the man into parenthood? Assuming its true, of course. Even without it "poked condoms" are a thing) and you can do nothing against it.

[–]Snivelingincel 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If a man wants to poke holes in all his condoms under the guise of having safe sex he absolutely can get a woman pregnant against her will. He can also engage in rape and then deny an abortion afterwards. Regular slip ups also happen in relationships and giving the power to the man to decide if the abortion should go through even if the woman doesn’t want a child is putting women in the same situation men are in currently, it’s moving backwards. Men shouldn’t have the right to force a woman to have a child, especially not since pregnancy requires special care and treatment. In that scenario you would also have to hold the man accountable for the care of the woman and all her pregnancy needs up until birth since he is forcing that decision. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman, I know for sure if I was a woman I wouldn’t want to be forced to have a child.

Positions like this can only be justified in states where abortion is illegal and even then I see that as a huge step backward even if it is technically “more fair” for all parties involved. It’s like we can both have one loaf of bread or both have none, each option is fair but which is better?

The solution is not to remove that choice from her. The solution is to give men more legal rights to parenthood by allowing to opt out of having children they didn’t consent to. This creates more pressure for women to make the right decision when it comes to whether or not abort a child, knowing she can’t force the father to contribute.

[–]Thick_Experience_203 -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate that I have a fan!

The show's got some good moments. It strawmans the incel movement, which is a little cringe in implementation, but it strawmans it so hard that it misses harming any actual men's issues by a country mile, lol. Fun and quick.

Regarding a man's right to the future of the fetus he helped made, I honestly hear you. Ordinarily I'd like to have a longer debate on the subject, but I think I can distill it down to the key points that would have to be answered, if the scenario you want comes to pass. And I'm actually curious if you have a good answer for this, because a lot of my perspective stems from asking myself these questions.

Heck, if you faithfully and completely answer both questions without getting mad at/insulting me (even if I'm not happy with the answer), I'll venmo you 10 bucks.

~~

Alright, say what you propose comes to pass. You have the votes, the lobbying worked, Mark Zuckerberg lost big to you on poker night, whatever: The dog has caught the car. All you have to do is outline the generalities of this law and it will be composed into a robust bill by legislative aides, allocated sufficient funding, passed through both houses of Congress, signed by the president, and faithfully implemented as the law of the land.

It's a blank check.

All you have to do is answer the questions regarding how the law is to be implemented:

1) Under which circumstances, when the woman carrying a fetus we made together wants to keep it and I want her to abort, can the state compel her to terminate the pregnancy on my behalf?

2) Under which circumstances, when the woman carrying a fetus we made together wants to terminate the pregnancy and I want her to continue it, can the state forbid her from terminating it and punish her if she does?

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When you have consensual sex you both agree to the risk of pregnancy. Really don't want a baby? Don't have (penis-in-vagina) sex or get snipped. (I also would like there to be a better choice, it would be so nice if men had 99,9999% effective contraceptives..)

Either way, if the woman gets pregnant the consequences for her are: a) go through pregnancy or b) go through an abortion (which also is no fun).

As a man, you unfortunately don't have the option for abortion. But why you can't force a woman to have or not have abortion has to do with bodily autonomy.

Why can't you force a woman to have a child? The woman has to go through pregnancy, during which she has to give up things like alcohol and types of food, and her body undergoes dramatic, often permanent changes. And pregnancy always comes with health risks.

Why can't you force a woman to get rid of a fetus? The woman has to undergo a medical procedure that also impacts her body and comes with risks.

You see, the woman already has the short end of the stick. She has to go through an impactful experience either way. She gets to decide which one she puts her body through.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but I think it's the most ethical system under the current possibilities.

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it’s incredibly rare

By the lay person's definition of rape (nonconsensual sex) it is over 40% of rapes in a typical year.

If you don't like the data of CDC surveying victims...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known cites among other things an academic study of perpetrators.

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

or

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/ cites a NIH study that includes self reported perpetrators.

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Both those articles are really informative and shocking to people who have just been listening to the narrative.

What I asked for is stats on children conceived through rape which you have not provided

Do you have them?

I provided numbers that showed rape of males by females is almost as common as visa versa. I proved reproductive coercion of men is more common than of women. I proved reproductive coercion of men is socially acceptable. I proved women have many outs and men have none. You seem hell bent on making this ungendered issue ... where women have more options if it happens to them ... out to be one where women have it worse ... in a subreddit with a lot of men that were victims of this stuff.

We don't go into feminist forums and deny women get raped. We get banned for saying we should focus on supporting victims and preventing rape rather than "men" because men get raped as often and government data backs that.

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No one expects a woman to abort because the man doesn't want a child. They just expect men to have the same right to abdicate parental rights and responsibilities as women have. She is free to keep or abort the fetus, or to surrender it after birth.

So either get the snip, pill, condom or keep it on in your pants.

Can you IMAGINE telling this to women? This would not fly. And it shouldn't for men either. No one should be punished for consensual sex.

Abortions aren’t a simple fun process you just do on a weekend because you can.

This shit has a lot of emotional and moral implications for anyone involved in the process. Losing the potential of a child is scarring.

So if a man decides to have sex, the emotional, financial, and physical stress of providing for fatherhood is on him. It's scarring to have your future coopted, but the woman can do it. But...a woman shouldn't have to take into account that, if she doesn't want a child as a result of her actions, then she might have to get an abortion, then that's good.

What you are saying is that: A woman should have to rights to choose the consequences of her actions, whether that be to abort or have a child. And additionally, for the exact same actions, she should have the right to choose the consequences for the man as well. The man, on the other hand, should be forced to be responsible for the woman's emotions and well-being, regardless of his own will.

Her body. Her choice. Her responsibility.

[+]AtlanticMaritimer -7 points-6 points-5 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes I could imagine saying that to a woman. I’ve had these discussions many times about pregnancy prevention. It’s a two way street one where we both have the responsibility in what we do.

At least in Canada either parent has to pay child support. The father gets custody and the mother doesn’t? She pays child support.

If the mother surrenders the child the father can have custody of them and the mother will need to pay child support.

Source for both these: The Divorce Act (Canada).

So don’t feed me the lie that mothers can just opt out while men can’t. If it’s not that way in your country then I suggest you look to our law as a good example.

In terms of the kid being born - once the woman is pregnant unless she wants to abort or the pregnancy terminates early - you should have to support the thing you helped bring into the world.

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The biggest failure in logic surrounding abortion as a right is two-part: "my body, my choice" coupled with the denial of responsibility. This equates to women's unilateral decision-making in whether a life can continue through gestation. If a woman decides she is not ready for the responsibility, a right to abortion says she can end her pregnancy. If the man decides he is not ready for the responsibility, there is no recourse. Instead, the rhetoric says, "if a man is not ready to be a father he needs to keep [his penis] in his pants," to be responsible.

However, telling a woman to do the same is typically met with language to shut down any conversation a la "misogyny." The majority of people understand that sex is how people reproduce. Somehow holding women to the same standard they hold men to is wrong when the actual standard is implying, "be responsible with sex." The actual implication for the majority identifying with "my body, my choice" is recognizing personal irresponsibility and ending the responsibility IS responsibility. In other terms, responsible enough for sex, but not responsible enough to reproduce despite the only difference being personal understanding of the terms.

Abortion in the scope of rape and risk of life to the mother seems reasonable. However, in cases of women acquiring sperm through subterfuge, is it any less reasonable to force her to undergo an abortion? Typically when thieves are caught stealing they do not get to keep what they have stolen. Forced abortion and jail time seems reasonable as punishment for someone that would treat other people in such a way. That was her choice after all.

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As I said before, if you come up with a way to transfer a fetus into a man’s body then you will see that change. You can herp derp all you want buddy, yes, some people are fuckin’ evil little shits. Some women poke holes in condoms.

Don’t sleep with those women.

You want some kind of legal repercussions for something that is impossible to prove without admission of guilt and to say otherwise is living in a fucking fantasy world.

The reason insurance fraud is illegal is because it can be proven. Bring me the ability to prove without reasonable doubt that a broken condom was used -internationally to impregnate themselves- otherwise this conversation is not only stupid, it’s just meaningless.

Edit; you also could /easily/ say men get options

Don’t fuck that person. Better yet get to know that person before you fuck them.

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Not the same. Vasectomies are reversible. And, the latter is ridiculously rare and not the point of ops post.

My issue with this post is the "consenting to have a child". I'm sorry, but most people are not getting pregnant from sperm theft or rape. If two people choose to have unsafe sex, they are consenting to possibly conceive a child. What they do about that is another discussion.

I say this as some who chose to have unsafe sex with my fiance and got pregnant. We made the conscience decision to not get back on birth control after my IUD had to be removed. We chose without duress to not get another IUD put in. And, we had a surprise pregnancy about a year before we wanted to get pregnant. Nobody forced us to conceive this baby. We consented to it by not wearing a condom, after choosing to have sex knowing full well we both personally wouldn't get an abortion if we got pregnant since we were getting married soon anyway.

[–]Grizzleswitch 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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Vasectomies are reversible.

Reversals are costly and not reliable. Neglecting to mention that is setting up men to be sterile when they want kids later.

And, the latter is ridiculously rare and not the point of ops post.

One of many ways women can force a man to be a parent when he doesn't want to be a parent.

most people are not getting pregnant from sperm theft or rape

Those that are, are being dismissed because of their sex. They are not rare. Even if they were, they matter.

Nobody forced us to conceive this baby.

Good for you. Many people were. Women usually have an out when that happens. A man only has an out if both the father and child live in Nevada and a judge agrees OR a step parent is willing to adopt and take on the parental responsibilities. It doesn't matter if the woman was convicted of a felony for the act of conception. It doesn't matter if he can't afford to pay. He will lose his driver's license and go to jail if he doesn't pay.

[–][deleted] 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not a feminist or even saying whether or not people should or shouldn't get abortions. All I'm saying is that most men and women who end up with unwanted children made choices that got them there. It doesn't happen by magic. They each have times when they make decisions about whether to be parents. Excluding the rare cases of rape, coercion, deception.

Men have to make the decision sooner, e.g., don't impregnate a women. Women can also choose to prevent being impregnated and in many places they can choose after impregnating to get rid of it, but both contributed to that choice. I'm sorry but I'm not gonna say that guys have none of the responsibility if the women they chose to impregnate won't listen to their request for an abortion.

"Boo hoo, the woman I was having unprotected sex with who told me she was anti-abortion got pregnant because I wanted to raw dog it and now she won't get an abortion. I have no choice in the matter". Bullshit. Both parties had choices. They made poor ones.

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It's on both people to make responsible decisions. If anyone man or woman doesn't want to be a parent, don't have unprotected sex. And if you're man, make sure before you have sex that you and your partner have reliable birth control and if you choose not to be safe, make sure that you only have sex with people who are on the same page about what you would do in the case of an accidental pregnancy. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Men and women both consent to conceiving if they have unprotected sex (with exceptions if they are coerced, too young and not educated on sex, or manipulated), . This isn't rocket science. There are several almost foolproof methods for preventing parenthood.

"Oh boo hoo my lady who I was fucking without a condom got pregnant and won't abort and I have no choice in the matter" yes you did. You had many choices. You chose wrong. Just because your decision to become a parent comes before hers doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.

[–]Negative_Thought_911 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I mentioned things men can do because we are talking about a men's issue. Women have even more options for preventing pregnancy. As a woman, when I did not want a child I took the simple step of getting an IUD. Case closed. Pregnancy avoided.

Everyone has choices. People need to take responsibility for their choices and this is from someone who had a surprise pregnancy. My fiance and I made a choice to not get other forms of birth control after my IUD expired because we were getting married soon anyway. He made the choice to keep having sex knowing I would not want to get an abortion. We made the choice to try to pull out method. And one time he made the choice to not pull out. We made the choice to not get plan B and see what happened. We are about to be parents by both of our choices. We are happy about it because we understood that it was a risk we were taking and that even tho the time wasn't ideal that we wanted a baby. It is equally our responsibility.

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I doubt even most pregnancies are from deceptive women not taking there BC. Gurentee it was equally woman taking birth control improperly on accident and/or guys who begged and pleaded not to use a condom because it "doesn't feel as good". You always have the option to use both.

General rule should be don't raw dog someone unless you could stand having a child with them. Otherwise you have to rely on them not messing up their BC. Besides, if you really don't want kids, why would you not take your own measures? That's personal responsibility for ya. Double the protection with BC and condoms

A handful of my friends in my early twenties had unwanted babies. All of them used the pull out method and knew their ladies weren't on BC. In my personal experience, they didn't like condoms and the pull out method was their idea. Like sorry bro, you made your bed.

[–]DarkShadow4444 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Actually, in cases of rape men are not required to be parents. They do have recourse. I remember a girl I knew in highschool for pregnant by a boy who lied about his age. He said he was 17, but after she got pregnant it came out that he was actually 15 and was cutting class in middle school and walking over to the highschool for her to pick him up.

When she got pregnant he declined any parental rights and never had to pay child support because it was stat rape.

Most people are not getting pregnant that way. Most have a choice to not impregnate someone.

I'm a woman. That's bs. Most women do not care at all about the inconvenience of condoms. Especially since it protects form STDs on top of the pill which prevents pregnancy. It doesn't feel that different for us. However, nearly every one of my male sexual partners and several male friends have expressed how much they hate condoms and usually beg to not use them or just take them off mid sex and try to keep going.

[–]DarkShadow4444 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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Vasectomies are reversible

Vasectomies might be reversible. Reversals are not reliable.

except those who experienced rape

NISVS 2010 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.1% of men were made to penetrate and 1.1% of women were raped. Look at Table 2.1 and 2.2 on pages 18 and 19 respectively.

NISVS 2011 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.6% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 on page 5.

NISVS 2012 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.0% of women were raped. Look at Table A.1 and A.5 on pages 217 and 222 respectively.

NISVS 2015 showed that in the past 12 months, 0.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.2% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 and 2 on page 15 and 16 respectively

Varies a bit from year to year, but pretty even overall. In both cases the four year annual percentages add up to five. The numbers for perpetrators vary a little from year to year too. Something like 79-84% of made to penetrate (nonconsensual envelopment) victims are victimized by women. Something like 96-99% of rape (nonconsensual penetration) victims are victimized by men. So in the 2010s, it averages out that a typical year has about 60% men and 40% women as perpetrators of nonconsensual sex outside prisons rather than the 99:1 ratio typically discussed.

Again, in 2010s about equal victims and 60/40 perpetrator split between the sexes when talking about nonconsensual sex rather than narrowly defined rape.

manipulation

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

or lack of education on sex ed/young people

Like middle-school boys that knock up middle-aged women?

"Victims With Responsibilities: Requiring Male Victims Of Statutory Rape To Pay Child Support With No Escape" by Jessica Persaud

https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

By having unsafe sex, both parents are consenting to the possibility of conceiving a child.

You were a good partner that told your SO you removed your IUD. You had no legal or moral obligation to do so. Nothing illegal about stopping the pill or removing an IUD without telling your partner. It's celebrated on women's talk shows with the applause of the audience. https://web.archive.org/web/20211220203706/https://youtube.com/watch?v=5CNHwhHWPoQ

The show was on broadcast TV for another eight years after that aired. How fast would a male talk show host be cancelled for advocating stealthing?

[–]DocRocksPhDont 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DocRocksPhDont -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Most people are pretty transparent. I had a friend who continued to date a woman who talked all the time to all his friend about getting pregnant with his baby and she jokingly told his own mother she should poke holes in the condom and he still dated her. If she got pregnant, we would absolutely tell him it's his half fault. I would tell him to walk away and pay child support, since he made bad choices and is still responsible, as is she.

What you are describing is probably very rare. If you really think that is a risk, abstain or buy your own condoms and only use your stash of condoms. If your girl says she is on BC, use a condom anyway unless you intend to be a parent or only fuck people who would abort, because one fuck up by her and you are a dad.

Men have the choice to use condoms correctly everytime and most unplanned pregnancies are because they just don't want to.

[–]duhhhh 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Foxsayy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Foxsayy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Look, the point is she gets the choice and he doesn't. And that's inequality. But...

Or make sure your partner shares your views on abortion in the case of accidental pregnancy. Or don't fuck a girl without birth control.

People lie. People change their minds. Birth control fails.

Most people aren't ending up fathers because they were the unlucky 1% that used a condom correctly and failed or were forced or manipulated.

It's waaaaaaay more than 1%.

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"

You've demonstrated that you don't know what you're talking about, and have thereby disbarred your opinion of any merit. This is plenty already; I'm not even going to address the rest.

Stfu and take personal responsibility for your actions.

Even if it was only 1%, that's something like 2 million men in America, on the low end of estimates. That's a significant number.

[–]DocRocksPhDont -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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I'm saying that when we are speaking generally about a topic we should make our opinions based on reality -not rare circumstances. Different moral rules can exist for extreme outlier cases. It's a shitty argument style to equate those things. This post is about the idea that men in general shouldn't be responsible for unwanted children. I would argue that most are responsible except in the outlier uncommon circumstances mentioned. In those cases they would be held to a different standard.

That is already how it works. I knew a girl in my highschool that got pregnant by a boy that lied about his age and he was 15. Not 17 as he told her. Because of that, he was held to a different set of rules than the majority. Someone over the age of consent would have to pay child support. He did not have to ever pay child support because he was statutory raped. This is why exceptions to rules exist and why we do not make rules for the many based on rare cases. We adjust rules to accommodate rare cases.

That is also why many are against abortion except in cases of rape or incest. Those are extreme cases that warrant a different set of rules.

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There are too many men who think in the old traditional mindset, and will scoff at the idea of not being there for a child. Until very recently, and honestly in most blue states is still the case, women aren't forced to be mothers if they don't want to be, men shouldn't be forced to be Fathers....but there are too many fp anything to make women like me dudes who disagree for it to ever gain traction....plus the state profits from putting men through family court in this instance. Judges are evaluated on how mu h support they are able to produce, lawyers benefit for fees and hours, to jails profiting from the labor. It's all a horrible scam really. Men should have the right to choose whether they want to be a father morally and legally, just as women do. This is especially true now that women are formidable in the workforce, in the past when women had to rely on men for everything it made sense, but I make hood money now but, I can't tell you how many times I've dated a woman omwho 1.5x or 2.5x my salary in dating. And for those women who haven't made themselves formidable, the prospect of not having the state to back their foolish decision to keep a child when not financially ready, would curb the number of single parent households dramatically.

Title	When talking about consent— Why doesn’t the discussion extend to consent to have my child.
Author	NeoNotNeo
Upvotes	743
Comments	458
Date	October 26, 2022 5:17 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ye3hyg/when_talking_about_consent_why_doesnt_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-talking-about-consent-why-doesnt-the.1137232 https://theredarchive.com/post/1137232

Comments

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"