Being "submissive" doesn't actually help you attract or keep a man and is advice that benefits the man, not the woman.

prodigy2throw · 2017-04-05T20:13:59+00:00

Submissive doesn't literally mean being tied to a leash all day and asking permission to eat and go to the bathroom. You can be submissive to your man and still have self respect and independence.

philomexa · 2017-04-05T22:08:44+00:00

I think submission works for a woman who is and knows shes hot shit, but will only yield to a man better than her.

She's not a wilting flower and will steam roll over people she considers less than, therefore the dude who will command her better have balls of titanium.

Taming of the Shrew is an archetype I associate with this type of submission.

ThirdEyeSqueegeed · 2017-04-05T21:01:56+00:00

There's contradictions in your post here. On the one hand you say it benefits the man, yet you say the men have complained about you being submissive and don't want you to be. I don't see how it can benefit a man if he is complaining about it. We generally don't complain about things when we're happy.

Also, there is an advantage to being submissive in the fact that it forces the other person to take the lead, and essentially take on responsibility for decision making. Most people, even men, don't like having to make the decisions all the time because it gets very tiring. As the submissive, you are able to switch off your mind and relax, whereas the one in charge has to maintain a level of control.

Unabummer80 · 2017-04-06T01:59:46+00:00

I'd agree up to a point, Im not sure if people who say they want someone submissive actually know what they mean or if they are indulging in a fantasy.

My fantasy like that is a sort of very feminine woman who understands all my needs and caters to them. One who offers feminine pleasures after I've been manning it up outside the house.

I've dated some submissive-type women, quite a few actually cos I have lived in Asia for quite a long time. They make you feel very good about yourself as they put a premium on that, and they realise that men have that fantasy and try to fulfil that.

The drawbacks are many though

It's on you to make all the moves, for everything. This has been fine for me when I've had high confidence levels but if you falter, then it can become difficult.
They might expect to be entertained. I like switching off at the weekends. Submissive girls I dated were quite good at being passive-aggressive about small things, which is fucking annoying. Eg:-

me - "Lets' go for lunch"

her - "Yeah ok! Where are we going"

"I fancy a curry"

"hmmmm, a bit heavy...."

"well there's a new Mexican open"

"hmmm, spicy"

"well you fucking choose somewhere then argh"

this kind of passive-aggression is quite common in submissive people as they might not want to state preferences if they contradict yours. But everyone has preferences.
it relates to sex too. Someone submissive in bed wants to please you, but might have a hard time telling you they didnt really like when you stuck a finger up their botty. Then several times down the line they'll get sick of it and say they don't like it, just when you were fully loving how freaky you thought she was.
they ghost. Not many people are direct and give honest feedback when they have had enough of someone, but submissive women are particularly bad for just ghosting out of there, in my experience.
just because a submissive woman doesn't assert her standards, it doesn't mean they are not there and are not high. I think the fantasy of this type of woman is that they'll be less critical and more accepting of you for who you are, but that isn't true. I've been dating some and done something stupid, and - poof - no more dates. I remember once turning up for a date after a sleepless night and a couple of beers, she noticed this and - poof - she was out of there. I've found more assertive people give you more room for human errors.
Another example, I was chatting with a very hot woman recently - 25 years old and very feminine. Very reactive to me and a great listener. Very flirty. So we go to leave and it's - Prada shoes, Gucci handbag, all of that. I was thinking "could I realistically keep up with all that shit? We wouldn't jive."
they are equally hypergamous as an assertive woman, perhaps more so in fact. They might enjoy being led by you, but the market is the market and there will be a bunch of guys interested in her. And of course she is more like a fantasy than others so she might be high value. What is it about you that would make a person want to dedicate themselves to you, as compared to the next man? It makes sense that if she is looking for a leader, then she wants the best leader so you are under more pressure. Compare this to a more equal relationship, where the woman has her own shit going on. A more independent woman needs less from you, so you have less responsibility towards her.

So in summary, a submissive-type woman is going to be more of a fantasy than anything for most guys and the reality is probably not going to match up. If they worship you, then the pressure is on you to not fuck up, whereas in a more equal partnership then you both are going to allow for a bit more. They might have very high SMV/RMV, so that is no good for someone who isnt yet the full package. They could have very high standards, and be more capable of hypergamy.

Effervesser · 2017-04-05T21:14:09+00:00

After this thread, I have no clue what submissiveness means because everyone has some different way of describing it. In general, the way I see it, submissiveness and assertiveness are negative and positive traits and a LOT of people (not women or men specifically) could stand to learn how to have the one they lack. Anyone who says they're submissive women is only going to take it so far. Even if you consider your partner a subordinate if they don't have enough agency to the point where you can't delegate anything to them then you don't have a partner you have a child. Personally I don't want a woman that will 'put me in my place' I want a woman who will look out for my fuckups and deficiencies (which I guess is assertive) and a woman that can trust me enough to often to control or browbeat me (which I guess is submissive).

MissMaude · 2017-04-06T06:19:01+00:00

Submission is very attractive to low status/value men.

manletttime · 2017-04-05T20:52:07+00:00

Completely untrue.

Being submissive can boost a woman's SMV to a man by 1-2 points. As a matter of fact, in the last few weeks I've specifically talked about how some of the most dangerous women in the game --- high N-count variety --- are exactly that: super feminine, submissive, etc.

Submissiveness and subterfuge go hand in hand. That's a woman's locus of power: duplicity.

Submissiveness without any attention to personal agenda, sure, hurts the individual involved, but being submissive --- at least in direct interaction --- can do a lot for a woman.

fatchobanispliff · 2017-04-05T21:47:57+00:00

There are things you do in the area of "submissiveness" because you love someone (i.e. cook + clean) and it shouldn't be an act of submitting but rather an act of love and certainly not the only kind of way to show love. Teaching women to be nurturing is to some extent beneficial for men because men generally get colder treatment from everyone else. It is a negative thing however to tell women their only job is to please a man and to never speak up or express their own desires/needs. Generally the type of men who want that type of submissiveness take advantage of it like you said, by cheating or abusing them. Redpillers want to be "alpha" and that means they get to do whatever they want (like cheat or be an asshole) and women in their lives don't and that's not fair nor something any woman should have to deal with.

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YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-04-06T03:46:15+00:00

Obviously being a "strong independent grrrl who dont need no man" isn't advisable either, but strong personal boundaries and confidence will help a woman in her relationships far more than being "submissive."

I'm wondering if a lot of this is about compensating for presumed cultural conditioning.

Take, for example, TRP. Most of the men who flock to TRP are very much losers of the genetic lottery and have meek personalities to the point where they are incapable of even being assertive (by which I mean letting others do anything and refusing to set any boundaries in terms of their own self, what they will do and what they will put up with).

TRPers often go on about men being "dominant" but many of them justify this as counteracting the meekness/submissive conditioning the man has been subject to, and the actual goal is to reach an assertive equilibrium where a man is capable of asserting his own boundaries, won't compromise his standards, etc.

Perhaps, and I admit this is sometimes a charitable interpretation, TRP's use of "submissive" is often like this. The presumption would be that women are consistently told (in today's society) to basically be a Strong Independent Woman Who Don't Need No Man (tm), i.e. an uncivil shrieking harpy who moonlights as a ballbusting shrew... in other words, to not actually be strong or independent but instead to be a bitch. This is not assertiveness - assertiveness is personal, it is defensive, it is about keeping your boundaries up, not enforcing them upon others. Being a bitch, on the other hand, is basically being controlling, manipulative, uncivil and generally cruel. Its not self-defense, its controlling others.

So the goal would be to use hyperbolic language to counteract pre-existing conditioning in order to arrive at an assertive-not-dominant middle ground.

Like I said this is charitable.

okaygirl123 · 2017-04-06T11:07:20+00:00

Big difference between insecurity and submission. Insecurity is never attractive as it is a personality issue. Men are attracted to confidence, I would say life is attracted to confidence. Submission =/= Insecurity.

You can be submissive and confident, and you can also be dominant and insecure. What you talk about is insecurity, which is an issue meant to be addressed. It is not the same as submission.

badnews4u · 2017-04-06T12:40:07+00:00

I think the girl will be submissive by nature when she is happy in the relationship. it shouldnt be forced by her at all - thats where the nagging and various bullshit comes in. if you are aware of this process, the relationship is not at its best.

bp heads will explode when i say a post on trp about women acting like children when they are happy is relevant. its submissiveness thats more realistic, than this odd slavery picture people have in their heads.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/63c6jx/she_acts_like_a_child_because_she_is_happy/

anachan · 2017-04-06T14:59:04+00:00

Suppose it all depends on a person. Of course, TRPers feel they lack control, so they will look for submissive women. In general, that's what insecure guys do. I'd say, most guys, however (in Western countries), prefer a woman who is at least reasonably assertive, has her own opinions and views and so on. So, finding a guy in both cases is just a question of finding the one that likes your personality. As for keeping - that's whole different thing. I'd say submissive women have it much harder. Once a guy gets used to be served, to get sex on demand and so on, he won't appreciate that anymore. So a submissive woman is likely to be cheated on or left for a younger girl.

soccerstar77 · 2017-04-05T21:08:37+00:00

Sexually submissive. Not socially submissive. Submissive as in let him throat fuck you.

locriology · 2017-04-05T22:10:26+00:00

https://youtu.be/yCfthlQsThc?t=2m19s

I feel like this should be required watching for BP. Being "submissive" (I don't like that word, but whatever) isn't about catering to his whims. It's about letting a masculine guy feel masculine. It's about letting him provide to you what he can provide, even if you can do it yourself. If you advertise yourself as a "strong, independent woman", you're going to drive away guys not because they don't value strength, but because you're taking away what they want to contribute to the relationship.

solipsismyes · 2017-04-06T00:43:42+00:00

Let's look at the 'timeline' of events that lead to your 'belief' of > Being "submissive" doesn't actually help you attract or keep a man and is advice that benefits the man, not the woman.

I am a naturally submissive person (despite how often I pop off on this sub) and it's actually HURT me. I've had boyfriends tell me that it makes me "boring" and that "they hate how I always agree with them."

Even when my husband and I were first dating he told me I wasn't confident or assertive enough

So you've had more than one experience in a relationship where being submissive has back fired. Naturally, you would have started to believe or suspect that being submissive is detrimental (maybe). To back up your belief, you would have started to look for other influencing facts. Such as

Plenty of men marry woman who aren't submissive and who don't even know how to cook.

I'd say most of the married women I know don't cook or act any more traditionally from the single women I know.

And these things add up and back up your belief, which soon becomes more solid and harder to break. Soon enough you have your 'view' and post threads like these because others have 'views/beliefs' that goes against your own.

No one can change your view on this. You are stuck with this view. Stuck with it until you understand the flaws with how humans come to their beliefs - More on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S16EHfKRLfc

Essentially, you had an experience which was emotional. To justify your experience, you made up a belief that best fitted your experience. You connected the dots that were there.

Anyway back to your CMV

A submissiveness trait may or may not attract men. This is a subjective thing and nothing to do with TRP IMO. I.e. A woman is seen taking care of her elderly father in law. She shows respect to him by asking if he would like a drink, offering him food, helping him with taking off his coat, take away his plate when he's done etc.

I personally find this behavior attractive (viewing it in the third person). Other's who have different values than myself may not.

Being submissive I don't think has anything to do with the ability to 'keep' a man. When a man invest time in a relationship, and is rewarded with minimal negative emotions, he will soon develop a bond so deep that it will become very hard to emotionally break away from.
Being submissive has nothing to do with loyalty. The emotion 'attraction' is unforgiving and only controllable. A man can't avoid being attracted to > strange pussy. But he can control how he manages the emotion. How he chooses to manage his attractive comes down to his core values, beliefs and social up bringing. Nothing to do with his spouse being submissive. If you want ensure a man is loyal, you need to change his core beliefs on infidelity.

statsfodder · 2017-04-06T05:20:22+00:00

"Just be yourself"

rreliable · 2017-04-06T11:06:39+00:00

Except, this doesn't actually help her attain or keep a man.

Evidence? What studies are you basing this assertion on?

ingenjor · 2017-04-06T13:13:22+00:00

Being completely submissive is bad. Being overbearing is bad. The happy medium is somewhere in the middle.

To be more specific, I believe the RP stance is to be, or at least appear to be, higher value than the woman. Therefore a low value guy will value a very submissive girl, but a high value guy will be annoyed by it. So, everything's relative.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-04-06T15:32:10+00:00

Well I mean ok. I like when women agree with/trust me. These guys you've been dating sound like they have serious issues with their masculinity and self esteem.

DiarrheaHelmet · 2017-04-09T08:24:29+00:00

Meh I always fall for the tough independent girl but they always come with more baggage than the nice simple submissive girl. I think I'll take comfort over butterflies at the end of the day.

Also a lot of girls pretend to be tough, independent and strong but it's usually faked. Those ones usually have issues too. Just like guys trying to be confident it's often not too hard to see. Went a bit off topic but I'm drunk and it's 4 am here so sue me.

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alreadyredschool · 2017-04-05T22:57:55+00:00

I think you fucked up the premise. Rpw generally don't start either having a problem attracting men.

Is the main point about having a rewarding relationship or keeping the man? To stop being a controlling shrew and be submissive sounds like a huge upgrade.

Plenty of women you know manage to stay married without knowing how to cook/be submissive etc? Could have many reasons the question is if they would have it easier/enjoy it more if these were submissive.

Temperfuelmma · 2017-04-06T03:10:02+00:00

Being "submissive" doesn't actually help you attract or keep a man

Being submissive does help you attract AND keep a man, but if your whole personality revolve around submissiveness, in other words, if the only good thing about your personality is that you're submissive then you're shit out of luck.

and is advice that benefits the man, not the woman.

Fine. Let's hear your advice to women? God, I hate women like this. They ruin everything up with their fucking "advice".

"You're engaged now, you have more responsibilities and are matured now, so you should be more firm in your opinions and slightly have some control over him or he's going to be completely out of reach after you're married"

is exactly the kind of shit advice from women to women that turn good women that are a joy to be around into controlling bitches that men run away from 2 weeks prior to marriage.

"You silly! You shouldn't text him, let him text YOU first. Don't text back lengthy either. Don't show much love or anything. Be kind of distant and answer with short words."

is exactly the kind of shit ass advice from women to women that turn sweet little babies of women into complete shut out cunts.

A lot of "advises" given by women to women actually ruin relationships because they are too stupid to realize that what works on them doesn't work on men.

/rant

DevilishRogue · 2017-04-06T10:06:37+00:00

Men aren't hypergamous. If they find themselves with a woman who makes them feel good about themselves through respecting him, letting him lead and not chastising him when his leadership doesn't work out then he's not only not going to leave or cheat, he's going to treasure her and treat her like a queen.

MTriumph22 · 2017-04-05T20:22:21+00:00

That's ok, if you don't want to submissive, then men will just use you for sex.

herbyx5 · 2017-04-06T13:25:59+00:00

While I do partially agree with you that being submissive can lead into a mentality of permitting men to walk all over you, I have personally always looked for submissiveness in women; not necessarily so that I can manipulate them but that they are the most attractive type of women. Similar to women who like tall muscular guys, submissive feminine women are biologically more attractive to me and many other men than masculine women or women showing more feminist-like traits.

Personally, I have never loved a woman like I loved a submissive girl I used to date. And it was specifically her submission, her femininity, her aura of innocence that drove me wild. It does allow for leverage to abuse the power, however, I feel the key point here is that while there can exist a power shift towards the man in such relationships, a protective instinct in the man for the woman is also born. This is the crucial difference as women don't really achieve this protective instinct. Sometimes, I feel that women allowing men to be dominant through their submissiveness can lead to the man having this more primal adoration for the woman as opposed to women who try to undermine men and are abrasive. There is a balance of course and there are subjective preferences at play too. However, why would men profess to want a submissive woman if they didn't really want one?

[deleted] · 2017-04-05T23:53:57+00:00

The only reason you re worried about advice that is good for men is because you yourself provably give advice that hinders men and benefits women. Guilty projecting guilt.

Title	Being "submissive" doesn't actually help you attract or keep a man and is advice that benefits the man, not the woman.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	29
Comments	237
Date	April 5, 2017 8:09 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/63o2y4/being_submissive_doesnt_actually_help_you_attract/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/being-submissive-doesnt-actually-help-you-attract.269073 https://theredarchive.com/post/269073

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