Why conservative traditions will withstand the test of time. Simple math.

EulenWatcher · 2024-08-30T15:27:39+00:00

Ideas aren’t inherited only or solely from parents to children. Otherwise, we’d never get out of caves or feudalism. People invent and create ideas, they spread them among others. Religiosity rates have been dropping worldwide, although, religious people do have more kids than secular ones.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2024-08-30T16:42:48+00:00

What woukd you define as "standing the test of time"? Surely the fact that Christianity being replaced in the west means it is not standing the test of time.

John_Oakman · 2024-08-30T15:31:58+00:00

The moral virtues of the modern secular progressive liberalism is not negotiable, nor will it bow down to threats of consequences.

franjo2dman · 2024-08-30T22:42:50+00:00

maybe Muslims, Christians barley have any more children then not religious people

EugeneCezanne · 2024-08-30T19:27:49+00:00

There is a reason why Christianity and other religions has lasted thousands of years and still enjoy a huge following in the modern day.

There's not one reason for it: there are hundreds. Some of those reasons are predictable, dependent and replicable, others are unpredicted and mutually independent.

At any rate, it's a teleological fallacy to assume that because things got us here, "things" defines the borders of what works and will work forever.

But they failed the test of time

Lots of concepts with reigns longer than Christianity or what we now call "traditional" values have also failed the test of time. It's just a longer test for some than others. Look at monarchy, for example.

The traditionalists will outnumber the progressives given enough time simply by numbers game

There's more to this than birth rates. Power, particularly in forms like wealth or social influence, isn't distributed evenly.

SwaySh0t · 2024-08-30T15:52:44+00:00

The term you’re looking for is called: The conservative fertility advantage. Long story short more fertile religious societies/cultures will conquer or absorb less fertile ones. History doesn’t lie.

TermAggravating8043 · 2024-08-30T15:38:17+00:00

The reason why Christianity snd every other religion was ‘successful’ was due to the oppression of woman. Nearly every religion forced woman into inferior positions to men.

And look what happened, we’ve over populated the world to the extent there are not enough resources to feed or house everyone, and the climate is overheating too quick enough for us as a species to adapt. we need to lower numbers asap if we’re gonna survive.

The only reason this subject keeps getting brought up, is the woman-hating groups that want to use “the declining birth rate” as a reason to shit on woman fir no longer being inferior to men.

GGMcThroway · 2024-08-31T00:52:05+00:00

The Amish on the other hand, will be around for hundreds of years later.

Nah. The Amish are fucked up and inbred to the point you can tell someone is Amish through genetic testing. They aren't lasting either.

MyLastBestChance · 2024-08-30T20:24:29+00:00

The fact is that as technological advances make education and science more accessible globally, religiosity declines.

Mainstream religions are pretty universally patriarchal and advocate for the subordination of women. Education is the key that unlocks that prison and with it comes freedom and the ability to choose one’s destiny. For many women, that means walking away from life as a subordinate broodmare. And if she doesn’t, her children will.

Conservative religiosity needs ignorance and separation from society to truly flourish and maintain its grip over successive generations. As the world becomes smaller and access to technology and education grow, that grip necessarily loosens.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-08-30T19:16:36+00:00

yes primitive people will survive, but so what

Professional_Chair28 · 2024-08-30T17:15:42+00:00

Conservatives don’t just produce more conservatives. For example, look that the political leanings of Texas by age demographic. Oldest generations are conservative, Millenials/Gen Z/Alpha are liberal.

detectivelowry · 2024-08-30T20:56:29+00:00

It's in the name, conservativism. What better way to conserve your beliefs than to have children and properly raise a family?

Also there's the argument for cause X consequence. Conservatives have more children, yes, but having children is also likely to turn people into conservatives, or at the very least buy into some of their ideals.

ta06012022 · 2024-08-30T16:14:34+00:00

But the goal posts for "conservative traditions" are always moving. A few hundred years ago, it was a crazy liberal view to argue that slavery should be illegal. It had existed since the dawn of humanity. Now even the most conservative politicians in the west won't (openly) support it today.

Things that were once accepted as the norm no longer are, even among conservatives.

Fair-Bus-4017 · 2024-08-30T15:48:26+00:00

Yeah except christianity is also decreasing. And with conservative thinking becoming out of fashion and not the social norm. It is probably a better guess that conservative tradition will eventually die down. Especially because modern society can't financially support that living.

It's all fun and games that more conservatives reproduce but if their children won't cling to their belief system especially if it isn't financially possible then it won't do what you are hoping it to do.

Gravel_Roads · 2024-08-30T15:36:10+00:00

I know plenty of “liberals” (which is just anyone who doesn’t live by old traditional family roles, right?) who have children.

There’s just less of a pressure for people who don’t want children to have them. I’m a gay uncle. My brother in law has a couple kids, and my partner and I visit all the time and help watch them.

We don’t need gang-buster numbers or every single person reproducing to keep a nice, sustainable steady number.

In fact, id wager a more leisurely reproductive rate would be better for the planet.

obviousredflag · 2024-08-30T15:43:16+00:00

they will not withstand the test of time

Nothing withstands the test of time. Least of all, conservative traditions. Are you blind? All conservative traditions EVER have fallen over time and the ones we currently still see around to a high degree are also going to fade out

studentOfWisd · 2024-08-30T15:34:50+00:00

I think that material factors and the like are far more determinant of birthrate than ideology. Qatar for example is an extremely strict Islamic theocracy. Their birthrate? 1.84 per woman, below replacement. So it's not as simple as "conservative society = fecund society."

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MarlboroScent · 2024-08-30T22:17:19+00:00

logic isn't conducive of a community's well being and longevity

I think you're conflating logic with individualism there tbh. There are no "logical" or "correct" ways to determine moral values. There is always some leap of faith required, so both conservatism and liberalism or progressivism are equally "illogical", just one is more individualistic and the other is SUPPOSEDLY more collectivistic (it really is not, or not in our current world, because society is already very shifted towards individualism, and conservatives don't really want a collectivist society, otherwise they'd have way more in common with the precepts of communism than capitalism or fascism).

The Classical world have had Amazonian matriarchy societies, Plato's egalitarian utopias, and primitive communism was practiced by hunter gatherer tribes, etc

Sorry but literally none of this is true. There's no evidence that an Amazonian society ever existed appart from Greek myths, Plato's ideas were quite unpopular within those in power even back in Classical Athens' heyday. And communism is a stage that necessarily follows from capitalism, just as capitalism developped from feudalism; very ancient tribal societies might've had some elements in common but nothing remotely resembling any respectable form of communism currently espoused by anybody older than like 14.

But they failed the test of time because they became replaced or invaded by stronger, more populous, and vibrant competing societies that were patriarchal, hierarchical, had a strong set of moral principles justified by arbitrary reasoning.

So the "test of time" is violence. But I'm pretty sure much more violent and expansionistic societies could be thought of. A hyperauthoritarian, technocratic hivemind-like warmachine of an alien society would probably wipe the floor with our pansy modern societies. I can think of a few other ideologies nad value systems that'd be MUCH better suited for that than conservatism tbh, but I'm just spitballing at this point.

You're trying to pass a historical, contingent argument as some kind of eternal truth or law when there is no evidence of this "conservative" society having ever competed against other forms of social organization, or at least not in a fair competition where the odds weren't stacked against the competing alternatives due to external, sociohistorical and material factors.

DankuTwo · 2024-08-31T06:53:39+00:00

No society “stands the test of time” and all societies change, sometimes dramatically.

Leaving aside the fact that you use very large, and extreme vague, terminology with an exclusively American perspective….”passing on your genes” doesn’t work the way you think it does. Just on a simple mathematical level “your genes” all but cease to exist within a few short generations.

Unless you and your ancestors are big into incest (good luck with that) your great great grandchild is only 7% “you”. They are as close to you as your cousin’s children (I.e. in most cases they’re borderline strangers).

In potentially less than a century, and in some cases before you even die, “your” genes are already basically gone. In the grand stretch of cosmic (or even just historical) time a century is NOTHING.

vitalisex · 2024-09-02T14:43:32+00:00

You've been able to describe fascism very well. But fuck coercion. Why the hell do we need that to keep us alive? Hopefully the few will be able to combat the many through intellect. May money flow to the smart ones.

TinyFlamingo2147 · 2024-08-30T16:07:05+00:00

You don't need to have kids to teach women and men to respect each other and treat each other as equals.

Most people I know grew up conservative and left it behind.

SaBahRub · 2024-08-30T20:05:03+00:00

TIL that conservative traditions are fixed and genetically transmitted

guppyhunter7777 · 2024-08-30T16:17:36+00:00

Really it is going to come down to money. Where the US stands currently, if the government took all the wealth of every billionaire in the US, some how converted it into cash at a 100%conversion rate it wouldn’t cover the debt added in the last three years. Period. Liberals say “great no billionaires”. But then can’t do the math to figure out how they pay out the next trillion when there are no billionaires. And just how many folk you’d have to bankrupt going down the wealth ladder to make that happen. Liberals just haven’t figured out that more money wasn’t the solution. Feminism and other social distractions are just that. Distractions. This is going to boil down to cash really quick. Granted everyone else is playing the same game and wants it to continue, but the numbers can only be stretched so far.

DoinIt989 · 2024-08-31T00:36:37+00:00

Liberalism has won every battle since the French Revolution. Liberal, egalitarian values defeated the kings and empires of old. It is the natural path of the Faustian man, a world without limits.

Also, every <<hochkultur>> rises into a Civilization, and then decays as it loses its vital spirit. This is simply the natural order, just like a human being has a virile adolesence that turns into a stagnant adulthood and then eventually senility and death. Dumbass Evangelical fantasies don't change that.

Parking_Skin4863 · 2024-08-30T15:29:18+00:00

This is a perspective I never really thought about. I guess it’s true. The west has declining birthrates due to modern values and feels the need to import people from third world countries to tackle their declining population. People who, have traditional values. So in a way they are simply outsourcing what is necessary to keep civilisation afloat

Inductionist_ForHire · 2024-08-30T15:46:53+00:00

Pandora’s box has been opened and there’s no way to close it. It’s too evident that conservative traditional values contradict man’s survival based on facts about himself. Even if the birth decline continues and even if traditionalists outnumber non-traditionalists (I don’t support “progressives”), the traditionalists are going to run into the same problems that lead up to now. They’ll do it quicker because the knowledge is all there.

ZaaraKo · 2024-12-01T15:05:38+00:00

If the world were this simple, hand me some money: I'd be a fucking billionaire.

Our ancestors have tried just about every type of political and cultural doctrine.

Ironically, the ideology that makes the most logical sense, is doomed to fail because logic isn't conducive of a community's well being and longevity. Only for individuals.

Liberal, egalitarian values provide short term benefit of selfish, egotistical vanity, for long term loss of a future generation founded on traditional values that are conducive of a society's long term sustainability

In fact, it doesnt matter what you do. The traditionalists will outnumber the progressives given enough time simply by numbers game.

Imma shoot it straight. the world is not "logical-able", it's all empiricism. Please do not ever "logic" the world, you are no different than the loony academics FMPOV. I swear to god, it's always the logic heavy people who have lost the plot.

There's a reason people say "SOURCE?" Sure, sometimes the saying is overused and not used in the right places. But atleast 4 of your statements are conjecture, They're crazy fucking general ass statements too, please keep this to mathematics.

daddysgotanew · 2024-08-30T17:34:15+00:00

You’re not wrong. But everyone in this thread is going to tell you that you’re wrong and that we’ve somehow surpassed 6 million years of biology in the past 50 because of “feels”

apresonly · 2024-08-30T18:34:46+00:00

Liberal, egalitarian values provide short term benefit of selfish, egotistical vanity, for long term loss of a future generation

how so?

liberals want to keep the planet habitable for future generations, conservatives want corporations to be able to destroy the planet unchecked

liberals want children born into families who want and can care for children, conservatives want children born regardless of whether they will be cared for (and then those children grow up and become shitty adults bc their needs weren't met).

liberals want to fund free public education for everyone, conservatives don't. an educated population benefits EVERYONE and sustains civilization for the future. an unedcuated population is going to burn it down.

conservatives add more to our national debt which WILL fuck over future generations. Trump did twice as much as Biden:

https://thehill.com/business/4736740-trump-biden-fiscal-policy-deficit/

Suspicious_Glove7365 · 2024-08-30T16:03:31+00:00

Christianity is on the mega decline. People born into Christian families are more likely to abandon the faith than ever before in history. Christianity and religion in the west will not stand the rest of time because of their social policies.

Friedrich_Friedson · 2024-08-30T19:42:03+00:00

Declining birth rates among all progressive societies

Declining birth rates ain't happening in "among the progressive societies in the world",its happening in litterallly in every single country in the world,from niger to South Korea. In fact its far more rapid in the developing world lol.

There is a reason why Christianity and other religions has lasted thousands of years and still enjoy a huge following in the modern day.

I dunno, centuries of theocratic influence and estrangement with the monarchical authorities would do that. Also if yoh haven't noticed but in most countries religion is declining,in some rapidly declining.

Our ancestors have tried just about every type of political and cultural doctrine. The Classical world have had Amazonian matriarchy societies, Plato's egalitarian utopias, and primitive communism was practiced by hunter gatherer tribes, etc. But they failed the test of time because they became replaced or invaded by stronger, more populous, and vibrant competing societies that were patriarchal, hierarchical, had a strong set of moral principles justified by arbitrary reasoning.

Ok,at this point you are massively falsifying history and show 0 understanding of socio-economic development.

The traditionalists will outnumber the progressives given enough time simply by numbers game. So live your life and be free and happy. Your genes and belief system won't be passed down to the next generation unless immortality is invented.

Not Only is this contrary to the objective reality,it also disproved by history and by simple logic. Political beliefs and attitudes ain't hereditary. Most of the kids of these "traditionalists" end up being non traditionalists. This is litterallly why we don't have the beliefs and attitude of a 12th century peasant of of a caveman. You think these "liberals, progressives etc" came out of thin air from time immemorial?

The truth is: Attitudes, political views and opinions are a result of the societal superstructure, which is shaped (and it in return reproduces) by the material conditions and mode of production of each particular society.

Demasii · 2024-08-30T20:04:58+00:00

The world human population grew 8 times in the last 200 years as the world became more progressive.

Scientific and technological breakthroughs happened because people were actively trying to figure out how the world worked instead of hyper focusing on what was taught in some books and church.

Brilliant-Rough8239 · 2024-08-31T06:34:13+00:00

How does your simple math deal with the fact that the Middle Ages and Ancient World are both dead and traditional conservatism was so utterly ill-equipped to “withstand the test of time” that it became nothing more than a floating signifier ever longing for 40 years prior to (current year)?

Like, the ideal of the most right wing arch conservatives is literally the 1950s. Do you think the fucking 50s, the very middle of the most rapidly changing century in history, represented traditional conservatism as anyone from previous decades would have understood that concept?

Fuck no.

Inductionist_ForHire · 2024-08-30T15:54:44+00:00

Pandora’s box has been opened and there’s no way to close it. Man ate the fruit of knowledge and he can’t spit it out. It’s too evident that conservative traditional values contradict man’s survival based on facts about himself. It’s too evident that much of conservative traditional values can’t be based on “god” and have no basis in fact. Even if the birth rate decline continues and even if traditionalists outnumber non-traditionalists (I don’t support “progressives”), the traditionalists are going to run into the same problems that lead up to now. They’ll do it quicker because the knowledge is all there. You either face the facts and help us come up with some better values for man to survive or doom future generations to face the same problems at best.

Title	Why conservative traditions will withstand the test of time. Simple math.
Author	balhaegu
Upvotes	0
Comments	275
Date	August 30, 2024 2:40 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1f4wy16/why_conservative_traditions_will_withstand_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-conservative-traditions-will-withstand-the.1528864 https://theredarchive.com/post/1528864

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